EPTIf you'd like to continue the discussion, start a thread focused on one matchup or game. I've been thinking about PTvTZ recently, so maybe I'll start us off there.
[D] The Official Unofficial 2v2 Thread - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
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quillian
United States318 Posts
If you'd like to continue the discussion, start a thread focused on one matchup or game. I've been thinking about PTvTZ recently, so maybe I'll start us off there. | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On July 21 2011 14:06 quillian wrote: How about instead of having general discussions that start going all different directions, we start some 2v2 threads for specific matchups or to review specific replays, like the rest of the strategy forum. I am all about promoting team play in sc2, but these threads never seem to go anywhere. To be taken seriously, we have to start treating it seriously. If you'd like to continue the discussion, start a thread focused on one matchup or game. I've been thinking about PTvTZ recently, so maybe I'll start us off there. Too many MUs imo. PT, TT, PP, PZ, ZZ, TZ, and all of them vs eachother. 49 vs 9 in regular SC2. Not competitive enough either, fairly small pool of strong teams players. You can get to a decent level just by having strong mechanics and a solid build plus a bit of game sense. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On July 21 2011 10:52 Amui wrote: I disagree with the statement that any tech unit is great in 2v2. My partner and I thrive off of punishing such greedy techiness with rushes that they cannot possibly hold off. Protoss took double early gas? Bum-rush his partner while preparing anti-air+detection. Toss already is the weakest race in 2's before WG research finishes, why try to kill him when you can kill his partner, and then 2v1 a tech player. With good control there is no way the 1 tech player should win if you properly finished his partner and are prepared. The only race that can get away easily with teching and defending at the same time is Terran because of bunker+scv imba =(. Even then they can die quite easily to a rush. Ok, my post may have been a little misleading, i didn't mean that people should do a rush to those tech units, but more keep them in mind when playing. For example when i play 2v2 i like to go 11pool 18 hatch and then either mass ling or roach, either way i take two gas early and begin to save up for either infestors or mutas, but i stilll have a large standing force to hold off presure and attack with. Tehc rushes are very risky so id never tell anyone to rush for something like DTs because they'll die and then start flaming me. But a slow tech to something such as a toss who opens 2 gate robo and gets immortals to defend can then slow tech to collosus, or if he goes 3 gate blink stalker can tech to DTs. As long as you have an army you can get away with teching in a lot of games. To the OP, since no one has put up any 2v2 games except for you i'll upload some of my own games tonight and post them on here. Just a bit of advance warning, if i put upload the games i played last night they will be perfect examples of bad macro and fudging stuff up ^^ im really a bronze newbi at heart  Edit: spelling | ||
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Xylarthen
United States137 Posts
Fast expanding is usually a game-losing decision. Even as Zerg. (although you can expand with a little time at 16-22 or so behind an attack or if you scout nothing threatening) Again, this is all general statements, but aggression in the 6-9 minute range is common to try to kill a player, to "cut out one of the legs" so that the body may fall. On top of that, Zerg is usually the player hit as they cannot wall off easily. SO A Zerg player Hatching first, which can be great, can also be hit with an army TWICE the size of anything you have seen in 1v1. However many crawlers you have, is probably not enough for you to save them, the hatch, and a few drones before your partner gets there, and even then, it can still be disasterous. Now I am not the word of God etc., but Hatching first should be reserved for the larger maps, or the shared base/expansion maps in my opinion. A Forge FE can work sometimes, just like a 15 or 16 Hatch (Although the Ice Fisher build is HORRIBLE as it really does not provide a way for you to help your partner if they are attacked first...) but 1 cannon simply cannot stop the number of Lings, Marines, Zealots, etc. that can come early enough in a 2v2 game. Play a few and try it. Expanding right away will either win you the game or lose it for you. Depending on your league though, you will be attacked early enough with a crippling blow, not standard stoppable 1v1 cheese. Liking the thread...more to come. Edit: had another thought right away. 4-gating is WORTHLESS unless is is PP vs. PP. Simply because, the entire concept of the build order is a timing attack, and while it CAN work, it is largely map dependent. Did they scout you, can the other player be there in time to help crush your attack, is there a reason you don't have another build that might be more helpful to your partner? (An important 2v2 note is winning is usually accomplished by helping your teammate to win, not by being the best player in the game.) Back to the 4-gate, either you will have the troops sit in your base after completion, or move out and face a superior force of 2 players. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
Edit: I'd like to state again: Perfect examples of bad macro and fudging stuff up ^^ im really a bronze newbi at heart Game 1 ZZvPP on Tempest, 17mins long + Show Spoiler + My ally 7 pools while I 11 pool 18 hatch and get roaches ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222386.jpg) Game 2 ZZvZT on Tempest, 15mins long + Show Spoiler + My ally goes roach expand and i 11pool 18 hatch and mass lings ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222387.jpg) Game 3 ZPvPP on Red Stone Gulch, 13mins long (same enemies as Game 1) + Show Spoiler + My ally goes 4 gate chargelots (Oo) and i 11 pool 18 hatch and mass lings ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222389.jpg) Edit2: Im playing some games right now and will upload games worthy of sharing as i play them Game 1 ZTvZP, Monlyth Ridge, 8mins long + Show Spoiler + Enemy use overlord to spot highground for pylon warp in into allies base, mass ling then kills my base ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222400.jpg) Game 2 ZZvZZ on Scorched Haven, 16mins long + Show Spoiler + Ally leave the game after 6 seconds (i had run into him twice in the last 3 games and both times we lost) I proceed to 2v1 ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222413.jpg) | ||
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-Strobe-
Ireland3 Posts
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On July 22 2011 14:08 -Strobe- wrote: Good thread. That looks alot like a bump Oo A couple of quick questions to the 2v2 community > What are you thoughts on money dump stratigies? > What do you believe to be the strongest 2v2 race combination and why? > What do you believe to be the weakest 2v2 race combination and why? It obviously wouldn't be fair for me to ask without giving my own thoughts so here goes. Money dumping+ Show Spoiler + Money dumping in 2v2 and team games in general can be very stong, see Day9 dailey 296. There are extreams of money dumping, as shown in the Day9 dailey, where one player gives all their resouces to their ally and expands a load, the player being fed can get ahead in tech and army because their ally is focused on eco. I personally prefer the idea of more subtile money dumps, for example a ZPv** where the zerg expand early and goes roach but takes all 4 gas to feed protoss gas for very early stargates. Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + The strongest 2v2 race combination is generally regarded as TZ because of the various very aggressive openings they have open to them. There are unit combinations that have very good synergy such as hellion speedling or marauder roach, but also they have tech options which can turn games around. A common response to early aggresstion for a ZT team in high level games is for the T to tech cloak banshees, which can often level the game out or put the ZT team ahead. Having said that TP have very strong midgame armies which any other race combination will have a very hard time against in a head on battle. I personally like playing with a protoss ally (ZP) because it allows abuse of my overlords by providing vision of highground for warp ins or blink Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + The weakest 2v2 race combination im sure many will agree is PP because they are generally the weakest race in the early game unless the sacrifice both tech and eco Also if there is a Z*vPP then it's very likely that the PP team will lose to a rush because of the way they wall off with a zealot, if they wall at all | ||
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Rixxe
United Kingdom136 Posts
On July 22 2011 18:01 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: That looks alot like a bump Oo A couple of quick questions to the 2v2 community > What are you thoughts on money dump stratigies? > What do you believe to be the strongest 2v2 race combination and why? > What do you believe to be the weakest 2v2 race combination and why? It obviously wouldn't be fair for me to ask without giving my own thoughts so here goes. Money dumping+ Show Spoiler + Money dumping in 2v2 and team games in general can be very stong, see Day9 dailey 296. There are extreams of money dumping, as shown in the Day9 dailey, where one player gives all their resouces to their ally and expands a load, the player being fed can get ahead in tech and army because their ally is focused on eco. I personally prefer the idea of more subtile money dumps, for example a ZPv** where the zerg expand early and goes roach but takes all 4 gas to feed protoss gas for very early stargates. Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + The strongest 2v2 race combination is generally regarded as TZ because of the various very aggressive openings they have open to them. There are unit combinations that have very good synergy such as hellion speedling or marauder roach, but also they have tech options which can turn games around. A common response to early aggresstion for a ZT team in high level games is for the T to tech cloak banshees, which can often level the game out or put the ZT team ahead. Having said that TP have very strong midgame armies which any other race combination will have a very hard time against in a head on battle. I personally like playing with a protoss ally (ZP) because it allows abuse of my overlords by providing vision of highground for warp ins or blink Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + The weakest 2v2 race combination im sure many will agree is PP because they are generally the weakest race in the early game unless the sacrifice both tech and eco Also if there is a Z*vPP then it's very likely that the PP team will lose to a rush because of the way they wall off with a zealot, if they wall at all Money dumping+ Show Spoiler + It's something that should be done at the right times, not just one player going econ and the other waiting for resources to spam high tech units. I feel that this is actually a large problem with the game state at the moment. I mean, seeing games when a Z gets 40 mutas within a stupidly short time because hes being fed gas isnt the most interesting game, as usually even if you scout it, its undefendable anyway. Resource sharing is something that needs to be monitored in some way.. say a max of the amount per game? 2k/2k or something. Still a large amount, just not enough to play like that for the whole game. Strongest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + From my experience, i think that TP is the strongest 2v2 team by far, Sentry expand coupled with 2 rax can stop any early cheese/push. And as stated this sets up for an explosive midgame. The units work together really well, Zeals and Rins are a quick and easy answer to a fast mineral army, the zeals tank, and the marines clean it up. Although i agree that TZ has something... extra about it in terms of really early game, some of the Z units are less desirable as the game goes on. Weakest 2v2+ Show Spoiler + Would have to say PZ or PP, rushing does become a huge part of 2v2 and obviously PP will suffer hugely for that (2 Zeals vs 6 lings and a marine?). I suppose it comes down to how well you can pressure using different strategies. If P can get a deathball mixed in with Z harrass, then it should work... shame i dont think it will ever get that far. On the subject of expand or not to expand; I think if you communicate who will expand early, it definatly works. If Z goes hatch first, the T/P should get early marines or Zeals to defend it, and vise versa. If you do hold the attack off, you should be well ahead. If the attack doesn't come, you can start to tech and get a large army due to the second base. Basically i wouldn't say that expand first is a terrible idea... just both have to defend it. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On July 19 2011 10:09 Eternal Dalek wrote: And I'm back. Dinner was nice. Since nobody has posted any replays yet, I thought I'd post some of mine for critique. Please forgive my Platinum scrubbiness. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221968.jpg) In this game, the enemy Zerg player goes for a very greedy build, eschewing early game aggression for an economic payoff that never happens. As I mentioned in my OP, greedy openings are suicidal because they leave your partner in a 2v1 fight against the enemy team. Our opponents simply did not have enough units to repel our double rush. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221969.jpg) Another replay from this Platinum scrub. My ally tells me that he's going for MMM, and I play with the assumption that I'll have a decent bioball to protect my fragile colossi. However, my ally decides to get a little each of a large variety of units, greatly diluting his army's effectiveness. When you have a little bit of MMM, and a little bit of mech, you won't have enough for a critical mass against the enemy team. Had he stuck to MMM, abusing its mobility for drops while leaving the base-breaking to me, we might've had a chance. Again, critique is welcome. I wish to improve. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221970.jpg) A rather one-sided game where my team double rushes the player who didn't bother to wall off. This game shows how much harder it is to defend than to attack in team games, because if your team is on defense, both players' bases must be defended, while if you're on the attack, you concentrate your firepower on one with weaker defenses. Then again, Monlyth Ridge is a terrible, terrible map since the ramps point towards the enemy, making it that much harder to wall off your team's side of the map. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221971.jpg) This game shows the power of specialization. Marines have good dps but are extremely fragile, while zerglings have good dps and survivability for their price but have difficulty getting close to the enemy. Combine the two, and you have a powerful combination. The zerglings tank for the fragile marines, who can let loose their DPS to wtfpwn the enemy. Our team's highly mobile and specialized unit composition of zergling, marine, medivac, and mutalisk were quite effective against the enemy's nonspecialized army. Thank you in advance for your critique. I'll be back tomorrow. I finally got round to watching some of these games and the biggest problem with your play that stuck out the most was that apart from the inicial worker scout you never knew what your opponents were doing or where they were expanding. You need to watch the mini map alot in this game, watch game 2 and just stare at the mini map, you left units out of possition, like a collosus on it's own right outside their base. You would have seen may of the attacks and harassment that was coming by simplyly glacing at the minimap. Also, please keep an eye on you scouting worker, you send it out to gather information like gas timings, building timings and placement etc, but in these games you dont actually look at what you've just scouted, you wait and then go look when the workers already gone. Anyway, im playing again tonight so will hopefully upload some more games unless some team game partners are online, mainly 3v3 so no place for those games here ^^ Edit: Just played an interesting game against a double terran team Game 1 ZPvTT on Scorched Haven, 17mins long + Show Spoiler + TT Team goes mass marine mass marauder, banelings ftw  ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222544.jpg) | ||
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Vanchen
55 Posts
Game 1 In this game, my partner 10 pools while I 4 gate sending my first 3 units to their base to help my partners lings. The other team decided to do a FE which you really cannot do against zerg unless you have a shared wall. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222539.jpg) Game 2 Same teammate even though random team (We just lost to a #16 Grandmaster xD) we go roach mm, I have no idea why the terran on the other team had so much production on one base though. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222541.jpg) Game 3 I start off with a 10 Pool but scout double T so I go straight into drones while the double T team goes hellions/banshees/tanks/marine. My teammate goes MM, heavy on the marines. I get roach speed and we manage to break the front while the tanks were shooting at rocks. From there, a banshee from the double T appeared but it couldn't do enough DPS to hold off the roaches. My teammate also cancels his 12 Rax by accident. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222542.jpg) Game 4 Whenever I scout a TZ going ling hellion and I am TZ, I like to go roach MM purely because if you can force an engagement, you will most likely win. After holding off some early pressure, my teammate scouts that they are going roach ling/maurder tank hellion which has no anti air. He goes into 2 port banshees while I slip him only 100 gas. When the other team makes a tank roach push, we are caught unaware and my teammate loses all but 4 scvs but has 5 banshees so we push and manage to take out their expo while keeping mine alive. From there we do massive damage to their base and take the game ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222543.jpg) Game 5 We face the same people in the last game. My teammate goes 6 rax while I go 2 rax 1 Fac 1 Star. They try an early pool but I wall in time. The toss on their team goes blink stalkers. After we hold the early pool it's pretty much an A-Move from there. To deal with the stalkers marine kiting, we walked into his base and killed everything so he was forced to engage. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222545.jpg) Game 6 In this game, yet again we scout a early pool with a 2 gate so I cut lings and make only drones so I can get roaches. They try a cute bling bust with roach but my teammate pulls some /almost/ clutch repairs and we hold. We follow with a speed roach mm push that kills a lot of production but almost no econ. From there we just macro with our advantage and push with MMM and roach. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222547.jpg) | ||
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aztecx
Australia130 Posts
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On July 23 2011 06:29 Vanchen wrote: I am a Diamond 1v1 Player but a very high 2v2 random masters player which should tell you that 2v2 isn't all about mechanics but strategy and attacking together. Game 1 In this game, my partner 10 pools while I 4 gate sending my first 3 units to their base to help my partners lings. The other team decided to do a FE which you really cannot do against zerg unless you have a shared wall. Game 2 Same teammate even though random team (We just lost to a #16 Grandmaster xD) we go roach mm, I have no idea why the terran on the other team had so much production on one base though. Game 3 I start off with a 10 Pool but scout double T so I go straight into drones while the double T team goes hellions/banshees/tanks/marine. My teammate goes MM, heavy on the marines. I get roach speed and we manage to break the front while the tanks were shooting at rocks. From there, a banshee from the double T appeared but it couldn't do enough DPS to hold off the roaches. My teammate also cancels his 12 Rax by accident. Game 4 Whenever I scout a TZ going ling hellion and I am TZ, I like to go roach MM purely because if you can force an engagement, you will most likely win. After holding off some early pressure, my teammate scouts that they are going roach ling/maurder tank hellion which has no anti air. He goes into 2 port banshees while I slip him only 100 gas. When the other team makes a tank roach push, we are caught unaware and my teammate loses all but 4 scvs but has 5 banshees so we push and manage to take out their expo while keeping mine alive. From there we do massive damage to their base and take the game Game 5 We face the same people in the last game. My teammate goes 6 rax while I go 2 rax 1 Fac 1 Star. They try an early pool but I wall in time. The toss on their team goes blink stalkers. After we hold the early pool it's pretty much an A-Move from there. To deal with the stalkers marine kiting, we walked into his base and killed everything so he was forced to engage. Game 6 In this game, yet again we scout a early pool with a 2 gate so I cut lings and make only drones so I can get roaches. They try a cute bling bust with roach but my teammate pulls some /almost/ clutch repairs and we hold. We follow with a speed roach mm push that kills a lot of production but almost no econ. From there we just macro with our advantage and push with MMM and roach. Just watched all your games, thank you! They were all so good! One question though, in a couple of them were you playing arranged teams and using skype or something? You didn't chat with your ally but had shared control and both your builds seemed to work well together Also, what server do you play on? Any chance of you playing some games with a lower level zerg player on EU server  Edit: Just googled you, US server  Nevermind, im sure theres someone on the EU server that likes 2v2 somewhere | ||
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Vanchen
55 Posts
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hunter3
United States155 Posts
-2v2 is somewhat competitive. I've matched against top players in 2v2, even when I won't in 1v1. You are matched against a higher diversity of teams. 3v3 and 4v4 are not competitive in the slightest. -2v2 and 3v3 are completely different games. 2v2 is more about aggressive rushing and working together in offense and defense. 3v3 rewards many more harass and tech builds. Map pool contributes to this, since many 2v2 have shared base and hence shared defense. -Team games allow placing directly into masters. The only requirement is that your team MMR is high enough. I could rant, but this is not the place. -Resource dumping is a valid strategy. It's almost impossible to scout, and suddenly there are twice as many mutalisk as the timing would otherwise indicate. However, resource dumping costs APM. -Abuse race strengths and weaknesses. Zergling speed, mutalisk harass, offensive/defensive bunkers, blue flame hellion drops, force field ramps, and any unit or spell with AoE are even more effective than they are in 1v1. Some races have no counter to certain strategies, deal with it. -Knowing the map is way more important than in 1v1. Know which maps have backdoor rocks, since two players will overrun one who's going tech or econ. Know which high ground can be abused by proxy pylon, blink stalkers, DT, offensive bunker, or siege tank, since they're often combined with an unstoppable overlord or scan. | ||
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Rabid Wookie
United States68 Posts
A few things/tips/whatever I can offer. Every build should take into account you either want to All In, Push Early, FE, or use pressure to take a normally timed expo. On top of the FE, push, or pressure builds you need to have a clear idea of whether you want to try to take a third or deny the 3rd's of your opponents. I find that soft or hard contains allows you to get up a 3rd and solidify the contain so that you can have map control and starve them. Dealing with a Random teammate is an excersize in patience, I generally let us each play our own game with only a small amount of discussion as to what our overall game plan is. After a few minutes you both should have a feel for how the other is playing and adjust accordingly so you meet in the middle. For Terran at least if you aren't planning to push early Marine, Tank, Medivac, with Vikings as nessessary is IMO the most well rounded build as you get 2 Factory Tank and take complete ground control your ally then either making low teir throw away units / fast units / or air units all work well in conjunction with heavy tank counts. | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
I quite enjoy it... though RT can be frustrating when you are paired with an ally who doesn't understand that you need to play with the same general strategy in mind (all-in, semi all-in early push or defend rush and expo). Problems with 2v2 are two fold atm: 1) The maps. I feel if we had maps like Terminus RE etc etc 2v2 would be better balanced. I like the new map they put in... the desert tileset with 1 shared natural in base. That is leading to some epic games already. 2) Protoss is very weak in 2v2 early game (the most important part of 2v2). This might be a map issue but there are too many deadly timings vs. Toss before warp gates are finished. Maybe some alternate strategies need to be explored here (3 gate stalker or something perhaps) but, recently, I've stopped playing random because I feel P is at a sizable disadvantage. | ||
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PolSC2
United States634 Posts
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PowerDes
United States520 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-223405.jpg) Matched Aristeo/Cubert searching 2v2 RT | ||
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ineffablepwnage
22 Posts
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
Imo the most important thing in team games is map control, map control and map control. We play TP and open with a shared wall (if required) and a bit of 2 gate stalker/zeal pressure for early map control. I gas first rush to siege tanks (tank and tech complete around 5:45) which holds off most timings except for rine rushing etc. Protoss then goes for a fast stargate and phoenix harass/map control while we both expand behind tanks, add more factories and blue flame for denying expos. I'm also really really happy with the map pool - I like the fact that so many maps have 8 bases (ie 4 shared bases) to make it harder to blind cheese. It allows you to play a pretty fun macro based game which we enjoy (even though I'm sure abusive rush builds a la protech's stream are what is required at the very top) | ||
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