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On March 24 2011 12:07 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 12:03 Griffith` wrote:On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote:
You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play?
The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop.
Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder. You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped . Okay? This still makes it easier for him to pick up and leave, because 4 seconds is not a long time.
You do realize you can't pick up marines that are fungaled... He also just has to put one more fungal to kill them all, the drop ship is also stuck. He also can try to run away but the zerglings will be there with the delay from the fungal. Horrible Zerg logic, like always, and also, people need to realize that playing Terran does not make you a noob and it is not easy, go play the race if that's your opinion. You will find that currently TvP and TvZ are hell, and TvT is a bore fest.
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i'd be pretty happy if t did turn out to be up in the metagame for a bit, i'd love to see people get good at mech and make it work. i find the amount of mm spam to be fairly boring
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I don't get why Terrans are complaining about the buff. Pure MMM was always a terrible choice in TvZ. Infestors have always been a good mid-late game counter to MMM, but now they are used more because of the buff.
Infestors are still very bad against high siege tank numbers and are still a high target priority. What you suggested in the OP was a good idea. Use 2-3 marauders to snipe them.
Edit: Drops should be easier to execute, considering that an investment into infestors probably means neglecting mutalisks for air control. Just spread your marines out.
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I tried playing mech,and once the zerg gets BLs and infestors, chain fungals just destroy vikings...i guess i have to somehow implement EMP now.
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This is just a QQ thread. No replay to ask what could have been done.
No willingness to find a solution.
Yes infestors have received a buff, and the unit probably didn't need it.
Yes many players will use infestors in the next weeks because it has just been buffed.
But honesly, I really doubt there is no solution for terran. They have so many different units and possible strategy.
On March 23 2011 12:55 Griffith` wrote:
1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines.
Zerg has 2 counters to marines, so you are saying they still need to use both do deal with this tier 1 unit ?
I used to be able to poke around with a small ball of marines and medivacs in front my tanks. Chain fungals are absolutely brutal now.
Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.
2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine)
1 infester and 1 spine crawler (250minerals/100gas) in each mineral lines, you don't think that's quite expensive to defend against drops ? Not to mention the zerg needs to react in time before you snipe the infestor.
Again, just adapt your strategy, if they invest so heavily in defending drops, just do something else.
Not to mention that 1 infestor could stop a drop before patch 1.3, maybe even more easily.
3. Zergs don't necessarily rush to infestors, they still do the usual mid game muta harass, but then tend to transition to infestors after the first pack of mutas. Usually this would force me to spam like 3 turrets per base.
I can't see how this is new with patch 1.3
4. Ghosts have even LESS utility given their nerf, quite often the infestors can store up to 175 energy (the 3-4 that infestors are used defensively to prevent drops), meaning that by mid-late I need to land 2 EMPs or more.
If the infestor has 175 energy, there is no reason the ghost should not have enough energy for 2 EMP.
5. My TvZ has always had an emphasis on very fast infantry upgrades (3/3) before 20 minutes, but because fungal completely ignores armor, it makes my armor upgrades not as useful. (Banelings + Fungals = armor is useless)
Again, you are not willing to find solution. You have to adapt your strategy to the game, not the other way around.
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I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
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On March 24 2011 17:54 Elean wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This is just a QQ thread. No replay to ask what could have been done. No willingness to find a solution. Yes infestors have received a buff, and the unit probably didn't need it. Yes many players will use infestors in the next weeks because it has just been buffed. But honesly, I really doubt there is no solution for terran. They have so many different units and possible strategy. On March 23 2011 12:55 Griffith` wrote:
1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines.
Zerg has 2 counters to marines, so you are saying they still need to use both do deal with this tier 1 unit ?
I used to be able to poke around with a small ball of marines and medivacs in front my tanks. Chain fungals are absolutely brutal now.
Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.
2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine)
1 infester and 1 spine crawler (250minerals/100gas) in each mineral lines, you don't think that's quite expensive to defend against drops ? Not to mention the zerg needs to react in time before you snipe the infestor. Again, just adapt your strategy, if they invest so heavily in defending drops, just do something else. Not to mention that 1 infestor could stop a drop before patch 1.3, maybe even more easily.
3. Zergs don't necessarily rush to infestors, they still do the usual mid game muta harass, but then tend to transition to infestors after the first pack of mutas. Usually this would force me to spam like 3 turrets per base.
I can't see how this is new with patch 1.3
4. Ghosts have even LESS utility given their nerf, quite often the infestors can store up to 175 energy (the 3-4 that infestors are used defensively to prevent drops), meaning that by mid-late I need to land 2 EMPs or more.
If the infestor has 175 energy, there is no reason the ghost should not have enough energy for 2 EMP.
5. My TvZ has always had an emphasis on very fast infantry upgrades (3/3) before 20 minutes, but because fungal completely ignores armor, it makes my armor upgrades not as useful. (Banelings + Fungals = armor is useless)
Again, you are not willing to find solution. You have to adapt your strategy to the game, not the other way around.
Get out of this thread if you want to complain about us complaining. This is not a qq thread. We're discussing solutions.
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On March 24 2011 12:03 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote:
You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play?
The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop.
Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder. You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped .
Just drop 4 marines.
Or better, load your medivac with 2 marauders & 4 marines, if there is an infestor you drop the 2 marauders and kill it, while your 4 marines are still in the medivac.
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3791 Posts
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote:
I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.
Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.
Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.
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really good spread and high micro skills could make a huge difference, no zerg player is gonna want to cast fungal if he can only hit two units at a time, but for now I can't see the bioball surviving if infestors are on the field.
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mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
User was temp banned for this post.
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3791 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
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On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
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3791 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense.. Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
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On March 24 2011 18:41 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense.. Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense. Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow still manages to have 50% survivors.
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3791 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:44 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:41 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense.. Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense. Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight. Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.
Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
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On March 23 2011 13:07 reikai wrote:
I don't like it necessarily.... having to spend excess gas on neutralizing zerg versus spending it on a faster upgrade or an extra tank. Also, with zergs basically making infestors a normal thing, mech is just one upgrade away from being Neural'd to death.
I say we need a new style.
A new style? Sounds...insane
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On March 24 2011 18:48 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:44 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:41 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense.. Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense. Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight. Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors. Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?
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On March 24 2011 07:32 Tumor wrote:
i think it will change just a litte aspect from the game, one scan and the T sees infestors... ohh lets build more tanks and Thors. they switch over and Z is still death... on my sight nothing chanced that much. yes Infestors are now a realy great unit and a perfect answer to Mariens. but when there are just some marines in the unit mix. u do nothing with them against tank thor (okay good against hellions) *in rage mode now, so maybe not a good answer, lost against stupid blueflame hellions when i had at 2 crawler at exp, and one in the main they still killed nearly all workers*
umad?
And btw, i see the fungal growth spell as a forced psionic storm, and even better, u cannot freaking micro !
User was temp banned for this post.
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3791 Posts
On March 24 2011 18:59 Rashid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 18:48 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:44 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:41 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill. What? Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense.. Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense. Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight. Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors. Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo. Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?
Not going to argue with someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Seriously your every post in this thread is nonsense.
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EPT
