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[D] TvZ 1.3 - Page 8

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I strongly suggest most, if not all participants in this thread reread the Starcraft 2 Strategy Forum Posting Guidelines at the top of the forum. Any further violations of said thread here and by these users elsewhere will result in moderation.
Lurk
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany359 Posts
March 24 2011 10:09 GMT
#141
On March 24 2011 17:54 Elean wrote:Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.


While some of your points are quite valid, this one got me lying on the floor laughing. I will eat my pants if you show me how to magic box marines against fungal the way you can magic box mutas against thors.

The Fungal growth area of effect is 16 times ! larger than thor splash, while at the same time, mutas are a lot bigger than marines.
Svizcy
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovenia300 Posts
March 24 2011 10:13 GMT
#142
Hey all.
I just want to throw in some "food for ideas", i'm especialy interested in answers from any 3000 masters terrans or better, because this is very timing-vise thing;
1. the baneling bust; Starting from a normal 2 rax marine pressure oppening, but then taking both gasses a tad faster would alow us to build early siege tech instead of adding 2 more raxes and getting stim. Wouldn't few bunkers and especialy arround 2 siege tanks be able to stop this kind of baneling busts that are currently in use?

2. the mass infestor problem; in the 2 tvz i managed to play, i havent seen a single muta. So bassicly midgame was about roach/infestor and occasionly some lings running arround.
No muta means we don't need marines that much to defend tanks, also we don't need to invest in lots of turrets anymore, so we have lots of spare minerals here.
So maybe a fast 3rd base as PF and just use it to mine some gass would give us some options of getting a good number of tank/1-2ravens/banshee force with some hellions for herrasing purposes?
Could be i'm on compleatly stupid idea, but atm cant test it cause i'm at work. Maybe someone of you give such mix a try?
good day, svizcy
Gigaschatten
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany79 Posts
March 24 2011 10:18 GMT
#143
I play 3,2k random in masterleague. I find the improvement of the infestor refreshing. The +50% damage output to armored units is nice. Reducing the stun duration is okay as well. However i feel that the damage dealt per second vs Terran units is a bit too high IMO. Terra has to play a bit more Mech style in order to compete with the infestor.
Let's see how people will adapt to this play. Since many players will now probably use the infestors in combination with burrow, we might see more detectors used in all MU's. Even on Zerg side.
I said good day, sir! Axe-actly!
guldurkhand
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands71 Posts
March 24 2011 10:25 GMT
#144
If u play passive as a terran and slowly take bases with mech, u probably have the best chance. But ofcourse being aggressive or good timing pushes won't work that good as they used to.
Rashid
Profile Joined March 2011
191 Posts
March 24 2011 10:26 GMT
#145
On March 24 2011 19:04 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2011 18:59 Rashid wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:48 Alpina wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:44 Rashid wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:41 Alpina wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:31 Rashid wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:28 Alpina wrote:
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote:
mass ling bling destroys mm.

mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech

mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.

honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.


What?

Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..

Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.


Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.


Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.


Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.


Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?



Not going to argue with someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Seriously your every post in this thread is nonsense.


You're right, arguments backed up by facts are complete nonsense. How silly of me.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
March 24 2011 10:28 GMT
#146
Baneling busts are far easier to handle on maps where Terran can wall off with 3 or 4 raxes. Whilst some zergs show that this in itself doesn't hold the Banelings (july vs Nada for example, or the whole TSL3 jinro vs morrow series as a more current example) it is a shitload easier to hold it off.

The frustrating thing about baneling busts is that they have to be blind hard countered and they are performed almost completely blind, and that the builds that are best at stopping them aren't the best at stopping the other Zerg build which is a really fast 3rd (fast stim + medivacs, which is balls against baneling bust). This is one hugely annoying thing about TvZ atm, how hard it can be to correctly detect it and make the proper adjustment to stop it.

Anyway, with stopping banes, yeah, tank as fast as you can with your first 2 gas. Whether it's a 2 rax fe or a 1 rax fe, tanks are your best bet. Blue flame hellions can do ok, but tanks are the optimal.


2) I've seen plenty of mutas, but yeah, infestors. Well, build tanks, engage slowly, keep an eye on his hive tech. There's nothing strictly different about playing against infestors in terms of how you play TvZ, it's just a fuckload more punishing when you get caught out, imo.
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
March 24 2011 10:30 GMT
#147
Try to add some marauders in your bio tanks army. With stim and Slow Cells, they can catch an infestor pretty easily and they kill them stupidly fast.
Because they didn't add that HP buff, Infestors still die in 2 tanks shot too. It can be hard for Zerg to keep them alive during a battle, as Fungal range is not that big.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Schism
Profile Joined May 2007
Australia85 Posts
March 24 2011 10:43 GMT
#148
Personally i don't see a way for mech to work if by mech/work people mean in the sense that heavy metal worked in BW vs. protoss. There are too many options for Z vs. that and 2 of them come from the the one unit - FG/NP.

I'm going to try the hellions/banshee way that someone earlier in the thread mentioned.

As for ghosts, that is laughable. As someone pointed out, there is a reason why people keep linking the same freak of nature ghost vs. z replay for months now - because it rarely works, and probably never for people who have less than godly micro, so examples are few and far between.

Now in 1.3 the situation is worse than before with the ghosts nerf. A slow building, expensive gas intensive unit with a single purpose in the MU, that can only be effective if used almost perfectly, and even then will only nullfiy a small part of the (now inevitable) large amount of infestors that will appear. On top of that, according to the Z players in here, T are now supposed to incorporate many more tanks and possibly even ravens into the MU. And....sacrifice their economy macro to constantly scan for burrowed infestors, so that their possibly semi-effective ghosts can find them and EMP/snipe them. Assuming that all Z are morons and don't protect their infestors.

Nah, the answer isn't ghosts or mech, i suspect if there is an answer, it will lie in a couple of pros showing the way with an unexpected strategy.
Serenity now...insanity later
aloT
Profile Joined April 2010
England1042 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-24 10:50:35
March 24 2011 10:50 GMT
#149
it still depends entirely on how well the zerg can use the abilities, and how well the opponent responds, I think mutalisks or pure roach/baneling/zergling whatever you fancy is safer, as they will always (mostly) do damage, the buff to fungal just alleviates this need, but it still exists
Cibron
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden253 Posts
March 24 2011 11:10 GMT
#150
On March 24 2011 18:12 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote:
I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?

If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?

I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??

All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.


If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.

Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.

Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.



well yeah, I suck at marine siege. I'm so cheap I dont want to sac a single tank to mutas so I tend to overreact to the flying blob and move all my marnies after it. Then the zerglnigs come from the other direction and rape my tanks and then the zerg tops it off with blings that instarape the rest of the army. And don't post TvZ battles are equal in micro because we all know how blings roll into clumped armies, and we see it on master streams too.

I'm not complaining about the infestor change - I just have problems with the matchup and need advice.
ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
March 24 2011 11:34 GMT
#151
On March 24 2011 20:10 Cibron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2011 18:12 Alpina wrote:
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote:
I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?

If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?

I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??

All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.


If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.

Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.

Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.



well yeah, I suck at marine siege. I'm so cheap I dont want to sac a single tank to mutas so I tend to overreact to the flying blob and move all my marnies after it. Then the zerglnigs come from the other direction and rape my tanks and then the zerg tops it off with blings that instarape the rest of the army. And don't post TvZ battles are equal in micro because we all know how blings roll into clumped armies, and we see it on master streams too.

I'm not complaining about the infestor change - I just have problems with the matchup and need advice.


Running banelings after the marines for zerg players is much easier, BUT if you can split marines well then you have a huge advantage, and you are going to win a fight. That means that marines have huge potencial being very good even vs. banelings, while banelings are going to be always the same - you just move command them, and if terran have good micro they just die.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
NismoCOB
Profile Joined February 2011
Switzerland1 Post
March 24 2011 11:41 GMT
#152
I played some monobattles with Infestors and have to say that you NEED 3 bases gathering gas to support Infestors. They are so fricking gas heavy and can "only" use 2 fungal.
So if you keep poking at different spots, you can easily get around that issue.
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
March 24 2011 11:49 GMT
#153
oh, so now T cant play with marine (T1) , tank only, what a sad story .
its time to use higher tecth to counter infestors, try ghosts and ravens, or blueflame masshellions...
Asparagus
Profile Joined December 2010
United States269 Posts
March 24 2011 11:55 GMT
#154
Every terran unit besides SCV, Mule, Banshee and the raven can kill an infestor in 1-3 seconds. Terrans just have to change their tactics of playing chasemaster in seigetank range because it doesn't work anymore lol.
This isn't the right quote!
Blizzard_torments_me
Profile Joined February 2010
Romania199 Posts
March 24 2011 11:56 GMT
#155
It's worse than warp in storm. Exactly what the game needed ,really. They couldn't buff hidras or something ,wich are utter shit anyway. They had to make an abillity that was just fine, a long stun with moderate dmg into a storm like abillity that rapes bio even worse than storm. And ofc infestors are better than templars atm ,templars are slow as hell. Infestors can burrow and have good speed on creep. Just keep one at every expo = drops are over in TvZ.
Willes
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany199 Posts
March 24 2011 12:13 GMT
#156
poster above me plays P for sure
Gigaschatten
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany79 Posts
March 24 2011 12:23 GMT
#157
Maybe we will see some nice "Snipe" Action with ghosts in the future while infestors are fungaling the ghosts themselves. ;-)
I said good day, sir! Axe-actly!
Lurk
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany359 Posts
March 24 2011 12:28 GMT
#158
On March 24 2011 20:49 Willes wrote:
oh, so now T cant play with marine (T1) , tank only, what a sad story .
its time to use higher tecth to counter infestors, try ghosts and ravens, or blueflame masshellions...


Terran don't use low tier units by choice, they use them because their higher tier units suck. I'd love to use more of my high tech units like thors, bcs, banshees, ravens - but they are even more susceptible to infestors than marines are - neural parasite completely shuts down terran high tech units. Before the patch, zerg didn't get many infestors so you could at least use a few bcs or thors but now every zerg is gonna have infestors in their army and if you use thors/bcs you are just asking to be NP'ed.

Also, it's quite funny that you suggest using higher tier units and list ghosts and hellions as examples, which are quite low tech.

Infestors are as bad a design as templars are, because the combination of their 2 spells make them effective against a wide range of units. I wish they'd distribute the 2 spells among different units. The only units that neither neural parasite nor fungal growth are effective against is probably the siege tank and maybe marauders.

So you effectively need tanks just to protect the rest of your army from infestors - which is not bad in itself, it just makes the matchup more one-dimensional and also creates problems on some (big) maps.
REM.ca
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada354 Posts
March 24 2011 12:30 GMT
#159
Clearly I think the solution remains in doing more of what we were already doing: lots and lots of constant early game drone killing to delay the infestors just like we would delay the mutas pre 1.3. Macro mechanics give terran the opportunity to take a lead early game. Let's make sure we do that and keep it.

I think I'll be more than happy if zerg are rushing to infestor if that means skimping out on some mutas. If my 2-3 turrets per base can *gasp!* ACTUALLY hold off mutas now because they'll be in reasonable numbers, I'll be a happy Terran. Wow, imagine a meta-game where it is reasonable for Terran to move out of his base now. Might not have to go all-in now if backstabs aren't a problem anymore.
I have a palm permanently stuck to my face yo.
REM.ca
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada354 Posts
March 24 2011 16:45 GMT
#160
On March 23 2011 23:21 Griffith` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 23:13 REM.ca wrote:
On March 23 2011 23:07 Lurk wrote:
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.


Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.


Nah it's really not that hard. Remember Ghosts can take 5 bling hits before dying so you only need to land 4 snipes. Give it 2 minutes of practice and you'll be coming out of that fight alive easypeazy.


Show us a replay please


Not a replay but I made a video to demonstrate the potential of snipe:



I realize this kind of experiment in the unit tester doesn't have much natural validity. Whether or not the potential of ghosts can be exploited in a real game scenario definitely needs a lot of experimenting.
I have a palm permanently stuck to my face yo.
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