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On March 25 2011 04:33 TurtlePerson2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 01:55 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
from a zerg view,
i can either go infestors OR go muta's, both have a weakness and a streangth
mutas cant't deal with a direct attack, infestors can, mutas can deal with seig tanks, infestors can't, mutas grant a small ammount of map controle time, infestors don't.
yes i can get both but as zerg you need numbers for things to be effective.
i find its really up to you terrans what you do now, mid game now isn't so much of a zerg much react to ### of the terran. I've got the solution for you. Use the mutas for map control and keeping Terran in his base. Expand rapidly and then have so much gas that you can afford the infestors too.
Then terran can build turrets and then move out with marines and destroy all those bases. Thank god the game really isnt as dumb as you make it sound.
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I haven't found it to be much of an issue. spreading marines was already key against banes, and siege tanks are still completely awesome. for people that went marine->tankmarinethor the patch didn't change a lot. I do notice zergs trying to not go muta but thats not a good idea lol.
tvp is another issue 
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On March 25 2011 04:40 dekuschrub wrote:I haven't found it to be much of an issue. spreading marines was already key against banes, and siege tanks are still completely awesome. for people that went marine->tankmarinethor the patch didn't change a lot. I do notice zergs trying to not go muta but thats not a good idea lol. tvp is another issue
I completely agree Z can not make muta bane infestor off of 2 base. WHen Z does get infestor you have to really spread, doding blings was way to easy just stim and run behind tanks was herp derp easy. Now TvZ is way more epic and challenging because you really ahve to spread and leap frog tanks hardcore.
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Observations:
-If you didn't build hellions, you will probably need them now that marines become quite a bit less effective.
-Zerg AA is still pitiful (lol hydralisku), you guys might try migrating to more port heavy plays (as in 2 fast 1 port instead of 3 facts) with banshee since the melee upgrade route for zerg gives them only infestors, queens, and static for AA.
People haven't been using the thing a lot less lately. So much so that incontrol doesn't really complain much about it anymore. And even then, just to detect, Zerg has to pay gas. Banshees are quite efficient because killing one infestor or taking away that infestor's energy makes your banshee cost back.
Or you can even making a huger amount of tanks and learn the art of slow push. Infestors against tanks is not particularly advantageous for a zerg with no muta.
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dude, any race that invest units at their base to defend should be able to hold off a drop... the best part of the drops is that they're fast and usually involve the element of surprise. Thats like saying if terran leaves 3 marines at their mineral line they can snipe my medivac...
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Its a dance between infestors, muta, and tanks. Personally I still haven't been using infestors much; I prefer muta/ling/bling/roach against rine/tank for the stronger counterattacks that roaches give (not to mention deals with hellions). I find tanks horrid to deal with without a big ball of mutas, and I still prefer the big cloud of muta harass.
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On March 25 2011 05:07 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Observations:
-If you didn't build hellions, you will probably need them now that marines become quite a bit less effective.
-Zerg AA is still pitiful (lol hydralisku), you guys might try migrating to more port heavy plays (as in 2 fast 1 port instead of 3 facts) with banshee since the melee upgrade route for zerg gives them only infestors, queens, and static for AA.
People haven't been using the thing a lot less lately. So much so that incontrol doesn't really complain much about it anymore. And even then, just to detect, Zerg has to pay gas. Banshees are quite efficient because killing one infestor or taking away that infestor's energy makes your banshee cost back.
Or you can even making a huger amount of tanks and learn the art of slow push. Infestors against tanks is not particularly advantageous for a zerg with no muta.
As I have written before:
You need to focus on the air dominance early. As soon as your vikings are outnumbered by his mutas and you move out you lose them all due to them being slower. Just because infestors are highlighted in the patch, doesn't mean your zergy opponent won't play mutas. Zergs can now rather save the gas used for banelings and invest it into infestors keeping the mutas. Out of the 3 big gas sinks they could always afford two (muta bane) so I see no reason why they could afford muta/infestor, too if they are conservative with their mutas.
They problem with air is that you are forced to maintain dominance. If you are caught outnumbered in the field, you suffer heavy losses. With the spawn mechanics it's really hard to gauge how long it's safe and just because you have the vikings to contest the air doesn't mean mutas are useless. They are still faster and can harass where ever the vikings are not. You need air superiority first before you can deploy any AtG DPS and that forces you to invest so much into air, that you get overrun on the ground. I have a few replays where I tried to go for a viking/BC/BFhellion composition reasoning that vikings take care of corruptors, hellions take care of hydras (and min sink) and BC deal with the rest. Taking a 3rd with this is nearly impossible though and you are vulnerable to just being overrun by mass banelings, if he doesn't get any mutas after the initial few and instead pumps his gas into banes to a move into your base. Or roaches that over run you..
Though I have to say, that I never understood why the infestor wasn't used pre-patch. Against a turtle terran you can forgo banes (though get the nest and upgrade) and make mutas first and then infestors. If Terran moves out, delay with fungal and use gas for banelings.
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Maybe try a sort of old SCBW push? Involve more turrets IN your attack path (i.e. making turrets next to your tanks and marines) thus you can release the amount of marines needed, and get more hellions to deal with lings. Along with the turrets comes the detection range to snipe out those annoying creeptumors which stop you from making more turrets. I'm talking a very slow push. Wall off your base to stop counter ling attacks.
Edit: I'm talking tvp in scbw
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I still think bio/tanks can work, but I wouldn't be suprised to see more mech against zerg. And I'm glad about that. MMM is boring to watch 
I have an idea to open 1/2/2 just as I do against Terran (I'm basically using Griffiths terran tactic).
- Build marines and possibly a bunker at entrance.
- Go blueflamed-hellions and start harrasing while building up the 2 ports.
- Switch harass to banshee but continue making hellions.
- Expand and move forward to start producing BC from the ports.
Counter corrupers with ravens PDD and vikings that are set to follow the BCs (makes them more spread out and requires less micro BC are easy to spread out so infestors will have a hard time focusing down the vikings.
This basically means you will need at least 2 ravens with your army, but that's only one additional to a standard terran army. You will also need maybe 2 additional ports with reactor to pump out vikings as soon as you see the Z go corrupters. In my experience you wont need that many vikings since the BC will take up a lot of damage from the corrupters and 1-2 PDDs will make a huge difference against corrupters.
The infestors can still neural parasite the BCs but they will have to doge the yamato cannon and you can always bring 4-6 bansee with you to snipe down the infestors.
The main problem is that its very gas heavy and requires a lot of production facilities to rebuild an army. Since I'm only a low level player I have probably missed a few important things that makes the build kinda fail
Edit: Since the BCs now are faster, aren't they easier to micro back when they get low health? Forcing corrupters to follow or change target.
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It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch.
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I didnt get to play against terran since 1.3, but I love the patch
I was going mutaless infestor builds before and they can really be damn good
what I liked to do, and will try to do even more TvZ:
the usual fast expand stuff with a fast lair+infestor tech of 2gas. (this can hold pretty everything if well exectued + adjusting here or there)
and then all you pretty much do is get more and more expansions, get more zerglings+a handful of infestors + heavy upgrades
DONT TRY TO SATURATE YOUR EXPOS, AND DONT GET TOO MUCH GAS
get a ton of upgraded zerglings, so it feels like you make too many units, but not enough eco (you dont need a lot of eco if you only produce zerglings!)
the cool things is, zerglings slow terrans expos, and your amount+infestors just beats them open field but as you have so many expos, terrans need to do damage some time because once you have a sizable army, you might through in a wave of drones from like 4 infused hatches, getting you from like 35-40 to 60drones immidiatly
also this build allows you get a fast hive with already heavily upgraded ultras, and they're best friend, the infestor, already on the field.
the strong point of this build really is that you get a lot of hatches and upgrades and the hive very fast (sometimes around 15min). its main problem is heavy 2base push. against this you need to counterattack properly, or at least slow and soften him with fungals, and force a lot of sieges.
I havent seen this build anywhere yet (TLO did some heavy zergling expansion play in some huskystarcraft cast I think) but I (3200 Masters) had some success with it, and I dont even think Im using half of its potential. (thinking about mixing in small amounts of banelings, heavy nydus counterattacks, infestor harrass, drops, basetrades, stockpiling some gas for a heavy tech switch mid-lategame)
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Maybe we should be less vague and dreamy when discussing TvZ.
I as a random player tell you that neither race is particular easy to play(Terran or Zerg. Protoss feels easier though, cough colo/voidray cough).
What I think is the more dangerous change though is the newly delayed stim. I had my problems with the new baneling busts anyway and I don´t know a better way than having 2+ spaced bunkers behind my wall.
Anyway, aside from that you can´t actually do freaky shit like sky terran with viking + banshees without super turtling behind that. I speak of double walloffs and random bunkers in your bases because you won´t have many tanks(air is expensive).
All the tactics in the world sound nice, but you have to survive until you can afford them. If I would theorycraft a safe build for terran, it would involve expand+fast tanktech then going for hellion harass while building up a few ghosts. Ghosts are expensive too, but with snipe they can punish muta harass for a while(until energy runs dry) and scare away from infestor.
And while we´re dreaming, You could make cloak and drop nukes with 2 man teams(1 for the nuke, other to snipe overseers).
But this won´t become flavor of the month because this is hard like hell to the point where nearly nobody will try it out. Also you need 25 energy for cloak + ticking and 5 snipes to kill an overseer so overall 150+ energy on 1 ghost or build more ghosts(less tanks). Probably too gimmicky.
In the end you will either see roach/ling/bling into infestor/muta or muta/bling since you want mapcontrol and need something vs. bio/biomech. Pure mech gets owned by roaches or mutas kinda easily and only bling or infestor can actually deal with bioballs evenly.
People will never do the hard shit over the easy shit just because it looks more skilled. They will do what works. And the new infestor might work as well or better than banelings vs. bio.
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On March 25 2011 07:11 Griffith` wrote:
It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch.
You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
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what about getting a few ghosts to snipe the infesters. you can also use the ghosts against mutas decently and hydra so they are not a complete waste if they stop infester play.
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What used to be very strong, and I suspect will be coming back, is thor-banshee mixes. Thors can almost ignore fungal, and banshees are for sniping off infestors that try to NP. As a mineral dump, I use both marines and BFH. This gives you a very mobile, flexible harassment, and when it's time, they can move out and eat almost all unit compositions, except mass roaches followed by a small flock of mutas to clean up banshees.
This was the old comp I used, I don't remember why I stopped using it. I have a few dozen reps of it.
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On March 24 2011 00:26 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:23 manicshock wrote:On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote:
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal. He's terran, of course he doesn't use anything but tier one units. Soon the game'll develop where terran isn't allowed mobility because you know, our tier one are dying to everything. Just a question: why do magic boxed mutas counter thors so hard? I mean tier three vs tier two. Magic box isn't hard to do either. You know, if you're still thinking of strategy games as tier1< tier2<tier3 , you might want to discuss something else.
Maybe my sarcasm didn't translate well. He was suggesting it was ridiculous that terran players use marines throughout the entire game and that we're whining because "Zomg a higher tech unit can kill us!". I was giving an example where his view is completely wrong.
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On March 23 2011 17:47 Baum wrote:
I thought Infestors got worse against Marines (same dmg, decreased stun) or am I mistaken here?
it is the exact same damge but in half the time, so twice the damage per second. also the major difference is now the fungals deal damage faster than medics can heal.
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I kind of like the talk of getting air dominance. My thought is get a starport up asap and when >2 vikings roll out. Expand while killing ovies/attempting to supply block behind heavy bunkers (to prevent ling runbys and discourage busting. If you keep a steady stream of vikings and get 3 more ports up with your expo, you can start to crank out viking/banshee and my favorite, Raven. I think ravens are the key to getting air dominance in TvZ. Now this alone has some problems. Mostly being that they could just make a ton of banelings and go murder you. My thought for a mineral dump would be straight blue-flame hellions. They roast zerglings, banelings, and hydras like none other. Luckily, the natural enemies of hellions "roaches/infestors" are countered by banshees! Against a roach/hydra ball you have the Raven PDD to buy your banshees precious seconds to pick of roaches and vikings to kill overseers. Then you flip the cloak, move your other air away and move the hellions in to clean up (should be severely diminished roach numbers...or at least dented).
Now I can think of ways infestors can seriously gum this up (haha I laugh at my own jokes).
Air stacking allows a well placed fungal to annihilate your vikings. Banshees suffer slightly less (being non-armored) but mobility really is key. I think treating small groups of banshees+vikings like you would treat small groups of a tank+marines would help this considerably. I suggest becoming accustom to using 4 hotkeys and/or being able to box and spread your air.
I will try to get some replays but my skills are not master (or even diamond) yet. I would be interested in watching someone of higher skill level put this through some hoops. GL for now though fellow terran.
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You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
if you spread out fungal and tank splash isn't so strong, and if you dont, you cant throw an infested marine in the middle, because there is simply no space for it, so the infestor will throw it to the side of the marines, where only few get splashed.
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On March 25 2011 17:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines. if you spread out fungal and tank splash isn't so strong, and if you dont, you cant throw an infested marine in the middle, because there is simply no space for it, so the infestor will throw it to the side of the marines, where only few get splashed.
well if he spreads out there will be space in the middle.
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EPT
