|
I strongly suggest most, if not all participants in this thread reread the Starcraft 2 Strategy Forum Posting Guidelines at the top of the forum. Any further violations of said thread here and by these users elsewhere will result in moderation. |
Just a scenario I was thinking about, everyone here says the answer to infestors is a lot of tanks, but as soon as broodlords are out on the field Terran has a VERY hard time killing them and ends up having their tanks work against them. FG is very effective against vikings which used to be the conventional approach to BLs and Ghosts sniping BL's leaves less snipes for infestors.
The one thing I don't like about ghosts is that they are very 1 dimensional in TvZ, you get them explicitly to counter infestors and serve little role other then that. One might say that snipe is a very valuable ability but the truth is that you really need to save your snipes for infestors.
I think the problem is that infestors counter (to some extent) almost every terran unit except for tanks. Infestors' FG destroys marines and vikings. NP is very effective against Thors and Ghosts (if you emp the other ghosts with it). Hellions don't really kill infestors fast enough. Not to mention infested terran is another decent ability.
I'm not really sure how the numbers work out but Thors aren't really sufficient AA against Mutas. Of course with Infestors Z can't produce as many mutas, but then again Z doesn't have to make banelings anymore so maybe they could use that gas for mutas? But as I said, I don't play Z so i don't know how that would work out.
This is all coming from a 2k Diamond T so take it with a grain of salt and of course this is all theorycrafting
|
The BL transition is always a problem, but you actually don't need that many vikings to deal with them. Remember you'll also have marines and likely a couple thors, that - while not ideal - can help the the BLs too.
However, with many zerg now getting a fast infestation pit, they also get hive tech earlier. This has throw off my timings to get vikings more than once and i thing i need to adept my timings a bit.
|
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote:
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post
First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
|
ZvT feels eh right now. I mean yeah zergs had a rough time versus protoss, but why give us storm?
Big marine balls are absolutely laughable right now, they just die so quickly and its really hard to keep your marines spread constantly while pushing. I'm feeling for the terran players right now =/ . ZvT was my worst match up granted, but the new fungal just doesnt feel right vs T. It feels TOO strong.
It seems like T's have to add ghosts into the mix much sooner now, but they will have to skimp on tanks to get the ghosts. I hope you guys can find a good timing on getting the ghost, and get constant scouting on the zerg base.
|
On March 25 2011 19:25 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote:
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL
sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers!
barracks = 1
Factory = 2
starport = 3
or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
|
I don't know who is serrious in this topic anymore or who is here to troll. -__-
Only thing i can see is that ppl need to focus more on strategy and less on the damn this op this up debate, cause it ain't helping! - rant over -
As for terran tiers; rax, factory starport with no add ons T1, with tech labs T2, with building armory/core is T3, thats how i see it.
|
On March 25 2011 21:29 Brocklyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 19:25 Dalavita wrote:
First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo. LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
So whats a ghost then ? tier1 ? tier2 ? tier1.5 ? By your logic medivacs and vikings should be tier3. However, when i talk about mmm, i get discredited with "lol tier1 army" even though those medivacs are tier3.
Just forget about "tiers", it's a concept that's not applicable to the sc2 techtree, and it's also irrelevant because sc2 isn't designed in the way that higher tier units are better than lower tier units and should beat them. There are plenty examples for low tech units being the intended counter for high tech units: zerglings thors and immortals. marines beat mutas and voidrays. and so on. This is intended design, get over it.
|
On March 25 2011 21:29 Brocklyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 19:25 Dalavita wrote:On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote:
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo. LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
thors definitely are tier 3
id say
rax = tier 1
rax with add-on = tier 1.5
factory and starport without add-on = tier 2
rax with add-on + ghost academy = tier 2.5
factory with add-on + armory or starport with techlab = tier 3
starport with techlab + fusion core = tier 3.5
in general i think bio or biomech has gotten a huge nerf with the patch. its not only that fungal was buffed massively against bio, its also that early stim timing attacks have gotten much weaker, aswell as more defensive builds which rely on bio to defend.
in my opinion pure mech or air/mech styles or "a bit of everything"-styles will be the future of the matchup. and with pure mech, i mean a more thor-centric style. like.... thor:tank = 2:1 or something like that. this should give enough defense against mutas, while also giving enough tanks to deal with roaches or NP-ing infestors. hellions deal with lings and prevent the zerg from expanding completely unpunished while you build up the deathball.
|
The problem is that the ghost is a purely reactive unit and an extremely expensive one at that, too.
The main reason you get a ghost is to take out some of the opposing spell casting, which is why you rarely see them in TvT as terran casters are just not that great.
With EMP only draining 100 energy, the main role of the ghost is nerfed, plain and simple. This shows as players are now considering snipe as an alternative. From an energy point of view it's better to snipe one infestor than to EMP him. With two infestors in an EMP radius, it depends on the energy level (one or more is close to max, snipe - both are around 100, EMP) and EMP is only the clear winner for 3+ infestors in one AoE.
Against toss, the EMP wins most of the time, due to shield damage and the ability to take out sentries (why can a big sniper round not shatter that damn central crystal?). Still the high price tag for a ghost means you only get them to counter a direct spell casting threat. That is the problem. HT and infestors are good in most situations. Ghosts suck hard against T and Z except in special situations. So if you get them preemptively and your opponent decided not to go infestors as an example, you are WAY behind.
The next problem with ghosts is the cloaking. The nature of EMP and snipe means that ghosts need to disable their target before it can cast their spells. An EMP hitting the HTs after they have cast their storms is a failure. As the prime ghost targets (HT and infestors) should never be in the first rank, it means ghosts need to act in front of the terran army in the most vulnerable position. This turns cloaking into a 'mission critical update' quoting day9. There is only one problem:
Cloaking drains the energy ghosts need to disable opposing casters. In order to have a 20 second cloak mission that ends in an EMP, a ghost needs 118 energy. It is not possible to cloak longer than 27 games seconds and fire 2 EMPs. It also means that most of the time a successful EMP results in the ghost being killed as he runs out of energy seconds after the EMP.
To sum up why ghosts are not a good unit except against Protoss:
- One Trick Pony = only trained to reduce opposing spell casting
- Most expensive spell caster after the raven
- Reliance on cloak means a drastically reduced effective energy pool for main spells
- Preemptive ghosts force little or no direct response from the opponent
+ Show Spoiler +I would love to see cloak change to only drain energy when a ghost moves or fires. When a ghost is idle and cloaked, it recovers energy at half (or 25%) the normal rate. Combo that with ocular implants (50/50/50 upgrade) that increases sight and snipe range to 15, a changed snipe ability that deals 15(+1) damage with +20(+2) bonus to psionic and +35 (+3) bonus to biological for 35 energy (target armor is NOT ignored).
This would give ghosts a map control option spotting for the terrans at points of tactical importance and being able to ambush forces with snipe or EMP.
|
Snipe is good but its kinda like feedback vs EMP where one player has to click on one unit and the other player could just spam click over everything else.
I guess if you're curious, you should look at Jinro's games from the beta.
|
Well i'm thinking more on mass tank play atm, supported with some form od detection/anti air.
So maybe to go litle more heavy on ravens and tanks while melting minerals left overs on mass turets.
I can't think on the top of my head atm if raven is armored or not and also if HSM can catch intestor or is infestors speed to great?
good day, svizcy
|
On March 25 2011 21:29 Brocklyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 19:25 Dalavita wrote:On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote:
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo. LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
Not tier-based is how I'd describe the tech tree for Terran, and Protoss.
By your logic, a medivac is tier 3, the same as a raven and a battlecruiser, while a thor is t2.
The only race that has tiers is zerg, going by way of Hatchery -> Lair -> Hive, being required to open up new units and upgrades but doing nothing by themselves, on top of their building requirements. The factory and starport are unit producing buildings and nothing else.
|
On March 25 2011 21:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Snipe is good but its kinda like feedback vs EMP where one player has to click on one unit and the other player could just spam click over everything else.
I guess if you're curious, you should look at Jinro's games from the beta.
Yeah except that you need to click two or three times on the unit instead of just once. Imo snipe should be changed to drain 25+X energy and deal 2*X damage for it, consuming as much energy as is needed to kill the unit. That way, sniping templars would cost 65 energy (it's 50 energy now, but 2 clicks), sniping infestors would cost 70 energy (It's 75 energy now and 3 clicks). It would also make it more viable while not overpowered against beefier units like the roach (~100 energy) or the zealot (100 energy). The maximum damage dealt (at 200 energy) would be 350 - currently it's 360 (but takes 8 clicks).
|
On March 25 2011 10:33 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:11 Griffith` wrote:
It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch. You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
This is extremely situational, because a number of things have to happen for this tactic to work:
1. the marines can't be tightly packed, because then you can't toss an egg into the group (not enough space, the egg will land on the outside)
2. there can no other units within tank range (IT eggs have lowest threat level)
3. if marines are too far back and/or you don't have vision, the infestor could get sniped trying to get within egg range (Infested Terran range is smaller than fungal)
4. of course if you don't have full vision to begin with, there could be other units nearby that will snipe your infestor (remember it has to go in alone due to #2)
|
|
|
On March 25 2011 18:56 Lurk wrote:
The BL transition is always a problem, but you actually don't need that many vikings to deal with them. Remember you'll also have marines and likely a couple thors, that - while not ideal - can help the the BLs too.
you need many vikings if the Zs eco is strong. and just that they force unsiege on the tanks gives you an opening to go madcrazy with the infestors plus infestors are quite good vs vikings.
also both marines and esp thors are quite bad vs broodlords and both get stomped by the infestor support (remember NP gets used more now too with evryone using infestors).
|
Who gives a crap about tiers. There is high tech and there is low tech.
|
Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech?
|
On March 26 2011 02:06 Bleak wrote:
Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech? Mech has to weak of AA, a zerg can literally make nothing but mutas and magic box your entire army.
Im personally haveing a lot of trouble getting marine/tank to work at all, every game the Z goes infestors my marines are wiped out and my tank line is overrun easily, once they have the gas to have mutas + a few infestors to take out the marines its over.
|
On March 26 2011 02:28 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 02:06 Bleak wrote:
Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech? Mech has to weak of AA, a zerg can literally make nothing but mutas and magic box your entire army. Im personally haveing a lot of trouble getting marine/tank to work at all, every game the Z goes infestors my marines are wiped out and my tank line is overrun easily, once they have the gas to have mutas + a few infestors to take out the marines its over.
By no means I have tested this, but what about getting like 4-5 thor/siege tank/blue helion with double armory upgrading all game? You can always build turrets as you push to protect the tanks, and since helions are so fast, you can keep poking around the expansions.
Something like 4-5 thors, 10-14 siege tanks and good amount of helions should probably deal with anything in a straight up fight except broodlords or mass mass muta. The idea should be to prevent that muta count, but how? I think this is the crucial question. Perhaps with good harrassment or a good timing where your units can deal with anything, this could be possible?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
