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After about 12 or so games of TvZ, here are some observations I've made (3k+ masters):
1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines. I used to be able to poke around with a small ball of marines and medivacs in front my tanks. Chain fungals are absolutely brutal now. 2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine) 3. Zergs don't necessarily rush to infestors, they still do the usual mid game muta harass, but then tend to transition to infestors after the first pack of mutas. Usually this would force me to spam like 3 turrets per base. 4. Ghosts have even LESS utility given their nerf, quite often the infestors can store up to 175 energy (the 3-4 that infestors are used defensively to prevent drops), meaning that by mid-late I need to land 2 EMPs or more, which is really hard considering how big infestors are.Still have no idea how to use snipe effectively . 5. My TvZ has always had an emphasis on very fast infantry upgrades (3/3) before 20 minutes, but because fungal completely ignores armor, it makes my armor upgrades not as useful. (Banelings + Fungals = armor is useless)
Seems the only way is to stim 1-2 marauders to try and snipe the infestors.
Frankly I'm at loss on how to properly counter infestors post patch, any ideas from fellow Terran players?
On March 23 2011 12:55 Griffith` wrote: 1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines.
They dont even need the banelings 2 sec into the stun they can pop another on and instakill all ur marines i think ghosts are gonna be a common thing in TvZ now
zerg opinion here. Im still having a lot of trouble getting good use out of my infestors w/ a decent number of tanks placed in the enemy army. Lesser players will bring their marines out in front and get it, but smarter ones take more time to leapfrog and the openings are hard to spot. Maybe try more tanks, but i cant say that in masters they wouldnt just have enough muta or lings to overrun you then.
I don't like it necessarily.... having to spend excess gas on neutralizing zerg versus spending it on a faster upgrade or an extra tank. Also, with zergs basically making infestors a normal thing, mech is just one upgrade away from being Neural'd to death.
Terrans took a huge hit in this patch. Bio isn't durable enough to be the staple army anymore.
I still think the answer lies somewhere in biomech where you get the both of both worlds, but getting enough gas, let alone minerals, to support that kind of army is ridiculous. I find myself having too small an army when I'm facing off vs a muta/ling player.
I'm not a Terran but i'd suggest adding some ghosts. It may not seem very natural now as far as ur mineral/gas distribution but some good EMPs are extremely deadly (not to mention snipe). It'll probably take some time tho to refine some builds and drops just won't be as good.
BTW, are zergs opening infestors or going muta into infestors?
You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
How about going Marine Tank with a touch of Ravens.
With Autoturrets you can build artificial walls, even on creep. Neural Parasite could be a problem if you get HSM, but HSM isn't all that great when you got tanks already.
You could also try that Marine Raven build that plays a lot like SK Terran that was posted awhile back.
While Infestors are good, they still don't really beat Siege Tanks, which should still be a staple in the Terran army. Speaking as a Zerg player, if I use much of my gas getting Infestors instead of adding on more Mutalisks, it is going to be hard stopping something like a 2 Factory mid game push.
Infestors does offer a smoother transition to Ultralisks, whereas before, heavy Mutalisks play led more to Broodlords.
looking at it, you gotta say that snipe is better now. 75 ghost energy to kill the infestor as opposed to to 75 energy to remove 100 of it's energy. (It takes three sniper shots to kill an infestor because they regen 1 HP between the first and second shots, fucking things).
but the micro required to line up 3 sniper shots in a row, when you consider the poor vision that terrans have means that you'd have to have insane reactions and accuracy to take one out before it fungals your army
You should check out this replay, BratOK goes ghost/tank/hellion and it's pretty effective. I think he could've won if he got cloaking for his ghosts much sooner, but regardless Darkforce played really well. Awesome, awesome game.
On March 23 2011 17:47 Baum wrote: I thought Infestors got worse against Marines (same dmg, decreased stun) or am I mistaken here?
the dps is two-fold. fungals followed by banes/lings completely negates medivacs and kills everything in 6 or 7 seconds
But it has been like this before the patch. And if you are controlling your siegetanks correctly Zerg will not get those easy kills. Not getting a raven is always a gamble against Zerg because of burrowed Banelings. So in my eyes nothing has changed really.
counter infestors with siege tanks, they do full damage to them.
I don't see anything wrong with EMP'ing infestors considering EMP and fungal are worth the same energy, if they have time to get 175 energy, so do you. It's also not like you're going to bring ghosts with you on a drop
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
Before you know it your BCs will end up yamatoing eachother (I take it NP cancels a yamato cast in progress?)
You are at a loss after a day? Your best bet is to sleep on it and continue practice/ theory crafting tomorrow.
I say you just need to be more methodical with your attacks. Walking up with a bunch of tanks then sieging when the zling bane charge comes in won't work anymore. You will actually need to preemptively siege and spread (good scouting!). The idea is very simple but execution will take some time to learn. Terrans are going to complain for a few months about how zerg can just hit f and own their super execution intense attack. Then every single competent terran will learn how to properly execute this methodical push and we will be back to zerg complaining about how cost effective the terran ball is. It is the circle of TvZ yo. Fungal threat just limits your main army mobility and punishes those who ignore it.
Holy Check TL, This latest patch hurt me bad, bio's being punished in tvz, though with the templar no longer having amulet its become more valid there. With the dps buff more and more zerg are getting infestors, and tanks really only help so much, since nueral parasite is getting more use as well, they just run in a few units to tank the first shot, nueral parasite, and get a siege tank or two of their own.
Its getting more and more habitual to try to do a big all in vs zerg, and getting abit better looking to go to a late game with a protoss since warp in storms aren't a concern.
At the league in i'm though I really can't complain too much, if anything my losses are still usually macro problems honestly, but dealing with this increase of infestors and sentries play is troublesome with my current apm.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
Mech is extremely expensive, and even if you get them, mutas + infestors will roll over it.
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
Before you know it your BCs will end up yamatoing eachother (I take it NP cancels a yamato cast in progress?)
think of it this way, a NP-ing infestor is an infestor that cant fungal growth your marines. so just run up and snipe it
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
Before you know it your BCs will end up yamatoing eachother (I take it NP cancels a yamato cast in progress?)
think of it this way, a NP-ing infestor is an infestor that cant fungal growth your marines. so just run up and snipe it
No one pushes with just 1 infestor. Ghosts or mass tanks are a necessity.
2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine)
FG change does not really matter vs. terran drops. The most important thing here is that duration of catching medivac is 2x less. If you have infestor at you base waiting for fungal 8 dropped marines, then it does not matter what patch it is - 1 fungal still does the same damage to the marines.
You can consider this fungal change as a nerf is zerg uses just few infestors to support his army (which zerg usually does), but it is buff if zerg uses huge amount of infestors to damage your army. And huge amount of infestors means less mutas and less banelings as you may know.
Edit: and seriously you complain that you now may need even 2 EMPs to make infestors completely useless?
ummm if your using tanks then the infestor buff doesn't affect tvz, at least at the high levels. Pre Patch getting your marines fungled would still do ALL the things you listed. MM out of position would get picked off by a infestor. I think this is a way for Zergs to punish players with bad unit control but still doesn't answer Late Game TvZ where Zerg t3 is just useless.
I thought the corruptors were getting a +6 armor bonus? which would of been huge but i didn't see it on the patch notes.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
Why for god's sake do people keep bringing up the stupid 'tiers' all the time when one unit combination supposedly loses to another. First of all the entire use of tiers is a bit silly in starcraft 2. Terran 'tiers' are completely not comparible with Zerg 'tiers' at all. In a way you could call stim + shield marines a higher tier then hellions as it actually takes more upgrades... Also sc2 isn't based on the idea that higher tier units are automatically better, this may be the case in other RTSes like Red Alert or whatever but is actually a crappy mechanism. The diversity of sc2 and sc:bw is based alot on the fact that you still need to make tier 1 units in the lategame, rushing to high tier units only which replace lower tier units leads to boring gameplay.
Stating that higher tier units SHOULD beat lower tier numbers is just incredibly stupid, often it is true but there are tons of cases where it isn't. In TvZ marines are just a must build unit because of mutalisks. Sure thors counter mutalisks as well but don't have the mobility to compete on most maps, 'tier 1' units are just essential in this matchup and in fact every matchup...
On March 23 2011 17:41 NikonTC wrote: looking at it, you gotta say that snipe is better now. 75 ghost energy to kill the infestor as opposed to to 75 energy to remove 100 of it's energy. (It takes three sniper shots to kill an infestor because they regen 1 HP between the first and second shots, fucking things).
but the micro required to line up 3 sniper shots in a row, when you consider the poor vision that terrans have means that you'd have to have insane reactions and accuracy to take one out before it fungals your army
I don't think the Terran's are complaining. I think we're using this as a brainstorming thread and instead some Zerg have come in and trolled the post by suggesting we're whining about imbalance.
This is a strategy thread and the OP was in no way complaining. Just pointing out what to look for in TvZ and hoping someone may have thought of some things to help him out.
As a Zerg i use infestors a lot in the last few weeks and they were already extremely strong, preventing any drop play, hellion harass, banshee harass or stim marine pushes.
I haven't played with 1.3 yet, but i can understand terrans frustration. I think a good switch would be to add more marauders into the marine ball, even with upgraded fungal DPS they still survive 3 fungals, 1 more than marines, and they can be used to snipe infestors if you can get a flank or can be used to snipe the defending infestor in a drop.
The best way to deal with infestors still is positioning, though. Stay in range of the tanks, split units and hope the "psi storm that stuns your units" hits as few as possible.
On March 23 2011 21:12 Candles wrote: I don't think the Terran's are complaining. I think we're using this as a brainstorming thread and instead some Zerg have come in and trolled the post by suggesting we're whining about imbalance.
This is a strategy thread and the OP was in no way complaining. Just pointing out what to look for in TvZ and hoping someone may have thought of some things to help him out.
Come on TL forums you're better than this!
It's okey to discuss strategy, but if terran comes and says "Now I need 2 EMPs to disable infestors with full energy.." then it's just straight up whining. I mean not only infestors with 150 energy is very rare in ZvT, but if you got 1 emp on infestor with 150 energy then you just removed one extra fungal. That's such a minor change I have no idea why would someone complain about that?
On March 23 2011 21:17 Morfildur wrote: As a Zerg i use infestors a lot in the last few weeks and they were already extremely strong, preventing any drop play, hellion harass, banshee harass or stim marine pushes.
I haven't played with 1.3 yet, but i can understand terrans frustration. I think a good switch would be to add more marauders into the marine ball, even with upgraded fungal DPS they still survive 3 fungals, 1 more than marines, and they can be used to snipe infestors if you can get a flank or can be used to snipe the defending infestor in a drop.
The best way to deal with infestors still is positioning, though. Stay in range of the tanks, split units and hope the "psi storm that stuns your units" hits as few as possible.
Skimping on marines is just asking for the zerg to mass mutas to take advantage of your lower marine count, which would be potentially worst for the terran as zergs would lose a minimal amoubt of mutas and mass a muta deathball which could potentially wreak havoc
I don't think ghosts are the answer to this. While it may work now, in time zergs will learn not to clump their infestors, just like toss split their HTs. Also, infestors are huge and don't clump so much so you only get like 2-3 with an emp. Coupled with the incredible with cost of ghosts and their uselessness besides emp in the mu - i don't know.
Up until now i've been fine with using tanks to counter infestors, i don't see a reason why that would change. Plus, tanks are also pretty good versus other zerg ground - unlike ghosts.
I've played around a lot with ghosts in TvZ and it never really seemed to pay off. A money EMP on the infestors might save your day, but so would tanks instead of ghosts. And snipe is really a joke - i don't know if there one ability in the game that requires this much apm and accuracy to be used semi-efficiently (try sniping a couple of banes that are rolling into your line - it's like whack-on-mole on steroids). I may just be me or more specifically my sub-par apm but i never found much use for ghosts in TvZ.
On March 23 2011 21:48 Lurk wrote: I don't think ghosts are the answer to this. While it may work now, in time zergs will learn not to clump their infestors, just like toss split their HTs. Also, infestors are huge and don't clump so much so you only get like 2-3 with an emp. Coupled with the incredible with cost of ghosts and their uselessness besides emp in the mu - i don't know.
Up until now i've been fine with using tanks to counter infestors, i don't see a reason why that would change. Plus, tanks are also pretty good versus other zerg ground - unlike ghosts.
I've played around a lot with ghosts in TvZ and it never really seemed to pay off. A money EMP on the infestors might save your day, but so would tanks instead of ghosts. And snipe is really a joke - i don't know if there one ability in the game that requires this much apm and accuracy to be used semi-efficiently (try sniping a couple of banes that are rolling into your line - it's like whack-on-mole on steroids). I may just be me or more specifically my sub-par apm but i never found much use for ghosts in TvZ.
I wouldn't completely rule out ghosts in TvZ...
It'll take a ton of practice but.. eventually I think ghosts will become extreemly effective TvZ..
On March 23 2011 21:48 Lurk wrote: incredible with cost of ghosts and their uselessness besides emp in the mu (...)
And snipe is really a joke (...)
- i don't know if there one ability in the game that requires this much apm and accuracy to be used semi-efficiently (try sniping a couple of banes that are rolling into your line - it's like whack-on-mole on steroids).
I really have not been getting the same experience as you. Snipe is sooooo awesome in TvZ. You can get Ghost cost effectivemess with it vs every zerg unit except ling and roaches. It's not that hard to keep r pressed and click away at units is it? I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive. In my opinion, the hard part isn't the apm for snipe, it's the reaction time to start sniping before you die. With Zerg units being so fricking fast, if you're not paying attention, you might miss your chance (especially if your busy splitting the rest of your bio). This comes back to the fundamentals of trying to engage off creep and keeping your bio inside your siege tank cover I guess.
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
Oh my god. I just never even thought anything of this patch change until I saw BC's in a game that were micro-ing away from my Hyrdalisks ...
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.
Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.
On March 23 2011 16:39 imBLIND wrote: Terrans took a huge hit in this patch. Bio isn't durable enough to be the staple army anymore.
I still think the answer lies somewhere in biomech where you get the both of both worlds, but getting enough gas, let alone minerals, to support that kind of army is ridiculous. I find myself having too small an army when I'm facing off vs a muta/ling player.
You think Infestor/Baneling isn't gas heavy?
The OP is a testament to what's wrong with TL these days, Infestor/Baneling is so powerful, whine whine whine.
First of all patch has been out for one day, yes I'm waiting for someone to claim they played 1k+ games on PTR but let's get real none of this has really been tested yet.
Second of all, Infestor/Baneling is pretty useless at pushing a base, it's much more effective and worker bombs and army fights however not an army with a lot of longevity.
The amount of gas required to support this kind of army is insane, just as it has always been. Infestors are sure strong now but on 2 base saturated a Zerg will be struggling to get this kind of composition rolling especially after doing a standard muta/ling opening.
The key to this is as always shut down a Zerg's 3rd base and he won't have enough gas to support a large army of these gas heavy units.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
Mech is extremely expensive, and even if you get them, mutas + infestors will roll over it.
indeed, i cry a little bit inside i see ignorant garbage like that.
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.
Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.
Nah it's really not that hard. Remember Ghosts can take 5 bling hits before dying so you only need to land 4 snipes. Give it 2 minutes of practice and you'll be coming out of that fight alive easypeazy.
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.
Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.
Nah it's really not that hard. Remember Ghosts can take 5 bling hits before dying so you only need to land 4 snipes. Give it 2 minutes of practice and you'll be coming out of that fight alive easypeazy.
Have just played 5 ladder games zvt and i think zerg is getting op with the new patch. I though zvt was the most balanced mu earlier. It is so easy to fungal marines and terran has to turtle even more. I liked the part where there where 2 or 3 fights going on all over the map. Drops will be taken care of so easy and all the bio...
people saying the infestor change didn't change how it effects drops or marines are just stupid..
I play zerg, and if you cant understand that the SAME damage in LESS time = MORE DPS = BUFF... then you need to go back to school.
The increase in DPS means that medivacs can't heal through the damage as fast, which means everything dies faster, which means FG is better.
Healing bus drops were way too strong before, 8 rines and a medivac were free to pillage zerg bases, snipe buildings and rape mineral lines as they pleased until mutas or sneaky burrowed banes came out... the ability to position yourself behind minerals and kill swarms of zerg units or just get picked up and fly to the next mineral line in the early game now has an effective counter.
You still have a timing window where drops are effective unless zerg rushes to infestors, in which case you can marine scv all in him and gg.
It's a buff in some respects, and a nerf in others. If you were someone who used Infestors to delay pushes, then you can only delay them half as long with the same number of Infestors. If you use it to DPS down a drop quickly, then it kills them twice as fast.
Judging by what people have been saying in this thread, heavier Hellion play would be my recommendation. They take up a fair amount of space and tend to travel in a line rather than a big ball, so even a good fungal shouldn't hit too many.
OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.
Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.
Nah it's really not that hard. Remember Ghosts can take 5 bling hits before dying so you only need to land 4 snipes. Give it 2 minutes of practice and you'll be coming out of that fight alive easypeazy.
I understood your statement in the way that you would kill all those 18 banes before they reach your line. This way, it makes a lot more sense.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Tachion and I played some test games and I fully expect infestors to become standard in TvZ. Grante,d Tachion is a better player but we were both surprised to see two fungals pretty much elminate my marauders. Something like 31 hp were remaining on them after two fungals. I believe he said pre-patch it would have been 89 hp?
As a Terran I'm still looking for answers. I'll try ghost but I don't feel like they're a viable answer since infestors can burrow.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Ban ??? Idiot ??? it’s just an opinion u know, take it or live it, I am 3k zerg and all I can do is give my prospective from zerg point of view..
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
Yes, luckily they don't have some unit to neural parasite your BC's ...
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
He's terran, of course he doesn't use anything but tier one units. Soon the game'll develop where terran isn't allowed mobility because you know, our tier one are dying to everything. Just a question: why do magic boxed mutas counter thors so hard? I mean tier three vs tier two. Magic box isn't hard to do either.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
He's terran, of course he doesn't use anything but tier one units. Soon the game'll develop where terran isn't allowed mobility because you know, our tier one are dying to everything. Just a question: why do magic boxed mutas counter thors so hard? I mean tier three vs tier two. Magic box isn't hard to do either.
You know, if you're still thinking of strategy games as tier1< tier2<tier3 , you might want to discuss something else.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Blatant flaming in a strategy forum isn't exactly the best way to get your point across man. Why do you need to EMP twice? Wouldn't it be better to snipe twice (or 3 times, if they regenerate the 1 hp fast enough)? It's a third (or half) the energy usage, and the Infestor is dead on top of not being able to cast.
edit: upon further inspection, the guy even suggested sniping over EMP...
it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
That is how the mass infestor plays were handled during the GSL (marauder Ghost). Even if it is only 100 energy gone, that reduces an infestor down to 1 fungal, which if they are spending money/supply on Infestors instead of Banelings and Muta, is still pretty harsh.
it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
BratOk gets quite a few ghosts late game to snipe Broodlords and Infestors. When there are 6-7 Ghosts, Infestors/lords pop VERY quickly. The only person I've seen be able to handle his style of play is Darkforce who relied on NPing the Ghosts to EMP the pack of them
3700 Terran here and I haven't had too much palytime on this new patch but It looks like I will continue doing my 1-2 base allins after this patch. If Z's opt to go faster infestors it would work in my favor even more.
As for P, going anywhere past 15min is becoming more viable...will defiantly have to test this out.
On March 24 2011 00:43 Griffith` wrote: it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
It takes two snipes. Snipe does 45 damage, infestors have 90 hp.
On March 24 2011 00:43 Griffith` wrote: it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
It takes two snipes. Snipe does 45 damage, infestors have 90 hp.
1 HP instant regeneration unless you land two snipes INSTANTLY
On March 24 2011 00:43 Griffith` wrote: it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
It takes two snipes. Snipe does 45 damage, infestors have 90 hp.
Zerg units regenerate 1 hp the instant they take the first damage. So they have 45+1 = 46 hp after the first snipe and 1 hp after the second.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
And your ghosts aren't saving energy? Please...
I think what he was implying is that the nerf to EMP now only removing 100 energy makes it situational.
Get more than 1 ghost maybe, to be able to emp twice ? Why would 1 ghost be able to counter infinite casters with one click?
Also a trick to instantly double snipe is to get two ghosts and shift click the snipe on the infestor while being a bit out of range. the two snipes should go down at the same time as the infestor gets into range (or as your ghosts get into range).
I like the new changes to infestor, allowing us a much safer way to engage marines/bio armies without needing to be on creep with speed banes. Gives zerg a little more option to try and break a terrans forward contain or natural base D. Nothing is worse then rolling 30 banes toward marines and getting them all kited.
Now for the terrans, I think responding correctly to infestors will be entirely based off how many the zerg has. If there is only a couple infestors, positioning, unit spread and unit control should be enough to keep fungal from doing its optimal dmg. If there are however many many infestors, I think that 1-2 ghosts is going to be key. Then it all comes down to unit control from both races and adds a exciting dynamic to TvZ that we haven't really seen a lot of in sc2.
EMP was used to counter defilers in BW, seems like blizz wants to see it in sc2 TvZ as well.
He's terran, of course he doesn't use anything but tier one units. Soon the game'll develop where terran isn't allowed mobility because you know, our tier one are dying to everything. Just a question: why do magic boxed mutas counter thors so hard? I mean tier three vs tier two. Magic box isn't hard to do either.
Interestingly, T's can get out thors quicker than Z's can get mutas. But really that just further shows that discussing "tiers" of units when comparing different races is difficult, if not impossible.
On March 23 2011 18:07 NikonTC wrote: actually i just tried out 1.3 battlecruisers, and holy hell they're fast. fuck messing around with ghosts just get a few bcs and yamato the infestors
On March 24 2011 00:43 Griffith` wrote: it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
It takes two snipes. Snipe does 45 damage, infestors have 90 hp.
1 HP instant regeneration unless you land two snipes INSTANTLY
what if you land 2 snipes and then reg. attack with cloaked ghost?
also above, a TL'er mentions you can shift click two ghosts to snipe simultaneously.
On March 24 2011 00:43 Griffith` wrote: it takes 3 snipe rounds to kill an infestor, it has range 10. It takes about 2.5 seconds to snipe 3 times, 99% of the time, you will land 2 snipes, only to have the infestor scoot away with 1 hp. When you have 5 infestors, it would takes FIFTEEN snipes.
It takes two snipes. Snipe does 45 damage, infestors have 90 hp.
1 HP instant regeneration unless you land two snipes INSTANTLY
what if you land 2 snipes and then reg. attack with cloaked ghost?
also above, a TL'er mentions you can shift click two ghosts to snipe simultaneously.
2 snipes don't work, even when done simultaneously. You still need a third snipe or regular attack (which has less range and requires an additional click).
what im the most worried about is the july/morrow busts vs stim timing. i'm pretty sure the dual medivac build will not get the stim in time, since before you barely got it if your build was perfect. gotta check it out
On March 24 2011 02:30 PredY wrote: what im the most worried about is the july/morrow busts vs stim timing. i'm pretty sure the dual medivac build will not get the stim in time, since before you barely got it if your build was perfect. gotta check it out
Yeah that's what I would worry about too .
Btw as a terran do you have an idea of what the bunker timings changes in tvz? (If any)
Edit: as for the 3rd snipe to kill the infestor: it's not that important (even if I need to test if that's the case). If you shift click snipe 3 times the infestor should die instantly and it would never live the 3sec the op claims it should take.
On March 24 2011 02:30 PredY wrote: what im the most worried about is the july/morrow busts vs stim timing. i'm pretty sure the dual medivac build will not get the stim in time, since before you barely got it if your build was perfect. gotta check it out
I think an inbase expo used as a wall will become standard unlike you scout the zerg going lair. Just a thought
On March 24 2011 00:46 PirateGus wrote: Raven seeker missle mech play could work but I worry that you could not support the gas required.
/brain storming.
Raven's are a bit risky. Here is a replay of me failing terribly at a thor/scv/hellion/marine push, then dropping a fusion core to convince my opponent I was going BC's and stop making mutas. I then just turtled, expanded, and massed ravens.
The big problem with ravens: NP+seeker = dead ravens. You can start running away right when you see the NP animation, but it is still likely you will lose a few. This did happen in the following replay:
I started playing terran about a month ago, before that I played zerg and my ZvT was a few mutas to poke, then large numbers of infestors. It takes a lot of tanks to deter a large number of infestors. The zerg player can always split them up, run lings/blings in first, then use the infestors to NP the tanks. Or, very late in the game you can make a few BL's to force the tanks to unsiege, and then engage with infestors to your hearts content.
I think ghosts and EMP is the best response to infestors, but then you are going to have to avoid clumping the ghosts and be able to emp the infestors before he NP + emp's your own ghosts.
On March 24 2011 02:30 PredY wrote: what im the most worried about is the july/morrow busts vs stim timing. i'm pretty sure the dual medivac build will not get the stim in time, since before you barely got it if your build was perfect. gotta check it out
Probably means you should get a couple bunkers .
Although I am curious Will this stim taking an extra 30 seconds (which is 15 seconds game time?) make 4gate stronger or will terrans still get stim in time?
On March 23 2011 17:41 NikonTC wrote: looking at it, you gotta say that snipe is better now. 75 ghost energy to kill the infestor as opposed to to 75 energy to remove 100 of it's energy. (It takes three sniper shots to kill an infestor because they regen 1 HP between the first and second shots, fucking things).
but the micro required to line up 3 sniper shots in a row, when you consider the poor vision that terrans have means that you'd have to have insane reactions and accuracy to take one out before it fungals your army
scan is really bad, i feel for you.
My thoughts exactly. QQ me a river, Terrans who think you can just waltz across the map and siege at our door. If we can scout it, you can scout our army too.
On March 23 2011 17:41 NikonTC wrote: looking at it, you gotta say that snipe is better now. 75 ghost energy to kill the infestor as opposed to to 75 energy to remove 100 of it's energy. (It takes three sniper shots to kill an infestor because they regen 1 HP between the first and second shots, fucking things).
but the micro required to line up 3 sniper shots in a row, when you consider the poor vision that terrans have means that you'd have to have insane reactions and accuracy to take one out before it fungals your army
scan is really bad, i feel for you.
My thoughts exactly. QQ me a river, Terrans who think you can just waltz across the map and siege at our door. If we can scout it, you can scout our army too.
Yes let's give Terrans flying supply depots that can transform into advanced supply depots that can create shapeshifting mini supply depots.
Going bio is useless in TvZ ur only chance is all in before the game becomes standard / macro or go mech. Infestors and Banelings are too rape that it makes Marines worthless. Can you win with Marines in TvZ late game? Ya if you completely out-class your opponent and you have the micro of Boxer then sure.
"But tanks are good" ya... but they cant move so while you are trying to move out they just counter you with 30 mutas and rape everything (attachments / SCVs) and then still get their Mutas back in time to participate in the fight.
I gave up getting Marines cuz its a waste of time, I've started playing around with playing mech and its working out pretty well.
If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
I go Hellion/Thor/Viking with very slight barrack support and I have much much more success doing that than trying to have Boxer micro vs 75 banelings with Marines/Tanks.
I open with a 2 rax rush tho usually to slow them down, you can't just sit back and let them get 80 drones then you will definitely lose. 2 rax pressure into mech, it's not flawless but its the only way I can beat Zerg occasionally instead of going 0-100 on ladder vs Master League zergs with bio/tank.
On March 23 2011 17:41 NikonTC wrote: looking at it, you gotta say that snipe is better now. 75 ghost energy to kill the infestor as opposed to to 75 energy to remove 100 of it's energy. (It takes three sniper shots to kill an infestor because they regen 1 HP between the first and second shots, fucking things).
but the micro required to line up 3 sniper shots in a row, when you consider the poor vision that terrans have means that you'd have to have insane reactions and accuracy to take one out before it fungals your army
scan is really bad, i feel for you.
My thoughts exactly. QQ me a river, Terrans who think you can just waltz across the map and siege at our door. If we can scout it, you can scout our army too.
Yes let's give Terrans flying supply depots that can transform into advanced supply depots that can create shapeshifting mini supply depots.
Don't forget about an invisible structure that self replicates to give constant vision of half the map, improving the mobility of all our ground units while costing no resources.
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
I go Hellion/Thor/Viking with very slight barrack support and I have much much more success doing that than trying to have Boxer micro vs 75 banelings with Marines/Tanks.
I open with a 2 rax rush tho usually to slow them down, you can't just sit back and let them get 80 drones then you will definitely lose. 2 rax pressure into mech, it's not flawless but its the only way I can beat Zerg occasionally instead of going 0-100 on ladder vs Master League zergs with bio/tank.
I'm basically in the same place as you. Was really frustrated in tvz when z can just suicide an entire army and before I even rebuilt half of mine they already have all their units back and I'm no longer able to defend any other expansions. Mech is really the only way to go as long as you can expand towards your opponent. And if you can't take an expansion towards your opponent then its such an investment to be able to defend an expansion, 550/150 for PF + 300 for turrets at a minimum, which for only a few more minerals and gas can be taken out by 19 banelings, plus you lose all your workers/refineries.
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Wow, just because he disagrees with "the one and only Griffith" he should get a ban? Really?
I don't see the problem with infestors, this isn't something new. The only new thing is that you actually receive a punishment for being stupid enough having your marines up front. Get some more tanks, seriously.
If he's getting that many infestors he won't have many mutas and so you don't need as many marines and they don't need to cover as big of an area. Spread out your tanks and spread the marines in between. Slow push with tanks in front NOT the marines.
You don't need ghosts and if you get ghosts, learn to use snipe instead of EMP.
But yeah, it must be tough to actually have to think about how you engage the zerg now.
And yes, I am a terran player.
P.S. The stim timing is what scares me, for the same reason as the one Predy gave.
Zerg players don't understand the implications of this change because their race is passively micro intensive (macro tasks and positioning and scouting requires alot of apm), but their actual battle apm is less. With Terran the battle/harass micro is extremely apm intensive but macro/positioning and scouting require relatively small apm. That is not a comment on race difficultly just saying that there are differences in the types of apm required.
To me the big difference is this change allows for banelings to be largely cut out of the picture, as FG, 2game seconds, FG = death to all marines. Mixed with infestors which can move while burrowed this is really going to result in raven being required now which sucks because it generally does little to nothing against zerg.
So not only do we have to add in a raven (heavy useless investment), but we have to micro much more carefully because any slip up with the marine ball will result in instant death to 1 or at most 2 infestors. Basically what this all adds up to is even more careful micro required by terran, while the micro stays similar for zerg, they dont need to micro banelings, instead micro infestors.
Getting ghosts to counter a few infestors is a laughably bad investment. Ghosts cost more then infestors, you need to get cloak so you can emp before they get FG off most times, you need to spend alot of micro trying to counter the infestors and then your really expensive unit does basically nothing else. At least in TvP it kills shields and sentry energy so there are added bonuses. There is a reason that everyone has been linking that same bradOK video for the past 6months, because there is only one example of high level ghost usage in TvZ, that should tell you something. The Terran army has to do alot of marine splitting, stimming, quickly seiging up and I for one certainly don't have any apm to spare dicking around with snipe or non-premediated emps.
Obviously a very carefully played marine/tank/medivac should still work approximately the same, but it is obvious that now terrans have to play even more carefully then before. Obviously everyone thinks its unfair when they get nerfed, but this buff mixed with big maps will result in a terran buff or some nerfs for the other races next patch.
I'll just end by saying I don't know why blizzard thought that it was appropriate to buff zergs mid-late game unit when they already had the advantage in macro (xposition) games and terran had the advantage in close position/early game. Good job blizzard, this mixed with the new giant maps = bullshit. Giant maps are for another post however.
o c'mon, you're saying Ghosts are not good vs infestos because those sometimes can stack up 175 energy? really? then fire 2 shots, infestors still group up and take aoe from it
and how is the outcome of 1.3 patch that Zergs learnt to have infestors positioned at their bases if they have the tech
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
Wrong. Thors are still cost effective vs mutas even with magic box. They are also my unit of choice against mutas.
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
Wrong. Thors are still cost effective vs mutas even with magic box. They are also my unit of choice against mutas.
10 Mutas (barely) kill 3 thors when magic boxed. That's 1000/1000 or 2000 resources for the mutas and 1200/900 or 2100 resources for the thors - not my definition of cost effective. In smaller numbers thors are more effective (you need 4 mutas to kill one thor) but i was specifically talking about mass mutas. I always get a couple of thors as a supplement for my marines (to have range advantage and force him to magic box) but relying solely on thors for muta defense is not a good idea.
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ?
Wrong. Thors are still cost effective vs mutas even with magic box. They are also my unit of choice against mutas.
10 Mutas (barely) kill 3 thors when magic boxed. That's 1000/1000 or 2000 resources for the mutas and 1200/900 or 2100 resources for the thors - not my definition of cost effective. In smaller numbers thors are more effective (you need 4 mutas to kill one thor) but i was specifically talking about mass mutas. I always get a couple of thors as a supplement for my marines (to have range advantage and force him to magic box) but relying solely on thors for muta defense is not a good idea.
Small thing but thors are 300/200, 3 of them would be 900/600 or 1500 resources. 4 thors with +2 weapons would take out 10 mutas with no splash, attacking in 5 rounds of attack. I think the key is what the AtK ratio is. you do need to have +2 weapons for thors to be cost efficient and hope the mutas don't have air carapace.
On March 24 2011 05:53 statikg wrote: (A summary of statikg's post)
Some whining about APM
Basically saying that ravens are necessary yet a "useless investment"
Ghosts are unnecessary.
Some more APM whining.
Suddenly saying that everything is fine if you do a carefully played marine/tank/medivac push.
Whining about cross positions and how the infestor change will give zergs an auto win.
Ravens are a bad investment? Really? Since when? A raven in mid-late game is a must in all TvZs, imo. They let you remove creep without having to scan every 10 feet, they let you spot baneling bombs that would otherwise kill all your marines without having to scan 10 feet. They also have PDDs for mutas. Sure they won't last long but it's something. A raven is NOT a useless investment.
I agree, I don't really see a use for ghosts.
If doing a carefully played marine/tank/medivac works, then what the fuck is the problem?
Cross positions is not an auto loss against zerg like you try to make it seem. It's harder to pressure, sure, but you too can expand. Think about it, taking a third, a step in the right direction.
Thinking about this at work (so productive I know) and my standard was always marine+tank and either go thor heavy for roach / mass muta or just stay tank marine. Here are some ideas i had for certain builds.
marine/tank: -Ravens! The big trouble i had was poking ahead with marines to give tank range then getting infestored or mutas picking off back tanks. I found camping all my marines at my tanks (to fend off mutas) and using auto turrets+scans to scout ahead was much much better.
trying air dominance: -the thing i hate most about zerg is muta's. I haven't tried anything else yet but I love banshees and vikings. My thought was to comprise my main army of hellion, banshee, viking. heavy on the hellion and viking. This would help shut down all muta play and allow some awesome overloard harass. Cloak on banshees could definitely increase their survivability (though might want to get a raven first cant be certain). The idea would still be to engage slowly off creep using banshees to reduce creap spread. since the army is so mobile you can easily punish engagements off creep.
just some ideas to spurn the process. I don't think mass bio is the way to head into late game any more.
I apologize for any mispelling/bad capitalization I am posting from my crappy phone.
On March 24 2011 06:11 TheRealDJ wrote:Small thing but thors are 300/200, 3 of them would be 900/600 or 1500 resources. 4 thors with +2 weapons would take out 10 mutas with no splash, attacking in 5 rounds of attack. I think the key is what the AtK ratio is. you do need to have +2 weapons for thors to be cost efficient and hope the mutas don't have air carapace.
Oups, sorry. I must have gotten them mixed up with BCs somehow :O
i say more ghosts, if they dont go for infestors well just nuke em :D Seriously this matchup needs more nukes, that being said the infestor counters both the small and massable (MM) and the big and heavy (thor). Thor is probably the way to go though. Thor drops can force a zerg in to going muta, which will greatly limit the number of infestors they can make, which might allow for some marauder heavy MMM? I think the sk terran style antisocial monkey described might work well, since you can hunter missile the infestors all you like. If you can keep the infestor numbers down, i can see mmm/mmt still working. edit: does 1 snipe take out an infestor?
We must understand that more infestors means less mutas, and terran just need to fit the unit composition to more tanks.
The one combination that really scares me now is the broodlords+infestors
Infestors are now a pretty good counter to vikings (with the +30% vs armored), and vikings are the only logical counter to broodlords
Btw, many spoke about bratok usage of snipe and emp vs infestors in that MU, have any1 noticed the NP on 1 ghost to emp all his ghosts friends? thats so sick... and cutting totally the option of a ghost to be a fair counter considering its heavy cost
On March 24 2011 06:22 dohgg wrote: We must understand that more infestors means less mutas, and terran just need to fit the unit composition to more tanks.
The one combination that really scares me now is the broodlords+infestors
Infestors are now a pretty good counter to vikings (with the +30% vs armored), and vikings are the only logical counter to broodlords
Btw, many spoke about bratok usage of snipe and emp vs infestors in that MU, have any1 noticed the NP on 1 ghost to emp all his ghosts friends? thats so sick... and cutting totally the option of a ghost to be a fair counter considering its heavy cost
Oh blizzard, buffing a unit against both light and armored units.
Considering how well Fungal does against marines, should I bother getting banelings at all? I feel like it's better to get another infestor and double-fungal all the way.
As a Z player the unit I have trouble most is mass banshee, and to a lesser extent, hellions. Although marine/tank seems to be the textbook standard, hellion/banshee is a brutal opening and totally catches zergs off guard. They can easily come out before infestors are built. Builds like hellion harass into 2/3 port banshees are extremely strong and I feel are underused.
Some terrans feel like it's a "cheap" or "cheesy" method but hey, do what it takes to win. I'm a zerg player and I feel it's a completely legitimate way for me to lose to mass banshee play.
On March 24 2011 05:53 statikg wrote: (A summary of statikg's post)
Some whining about APM
Basically saying that ravens are necessary yet a "useless investment"
Ghosts are unnecessary.
Some more APM whining.
Suddenly saying that everything is fine if you do a carefully played marine/tank/medivac push.
Whining about cross positions and how the infestor change will give zergs an auto win.
Ravens are a bad investment? Really? Since when? A raven in mid-late game is a must in all TvZs, imo. They let you remove creep without having to scan every 10 feet, they let you spot baneling bombs that would otherwise kill all your marines without having to scan 10 feet. They also have PDDs for mutas. Sure they won't last long but it's something. A raven is NOT a useless investment.
I agree, I don't really see a use for ghosts.
If doing a carefully played marine/tank/medivac works, then what the fuck is the problem?
Cross positions is not an auto loss against zerg like you try to make it seem. It's harder to pressure, sure, but you too can expand. Think about it, taking a third, a step in the right direction.
What you have done mostly here is to create a fallacy called a straw man, you incorrectly represented my position and then shot it down. Also some personal attacks thrown in.
Your points about the raven are valid, they do have some relevant uses. However as I very rarely run into burrowed banelings for some reason (I think most zerg playing ling/bling muta dont get burrow), I find that scanning occasionally to kill creep is worth it because of how constantly gas strapped I am fighting zerg. 200 gas is alot for creep killing... against mutas I generally think the game is decided once the banelings are dead or the marines are dead, its rarely a close fight between mutas and marines that a PDD is going to matter in.
Your other points are poor however. You act like just because its possible for a strat to work, then there cannot be a problem with imbalance. The point is, beforehand the strategy worked with equal chances of winning and losing in fact it was so equal that the results would tip largely based on spawn distance, now because terran has less room for error, the chances of losing has increased, thus imbalance.
I also didnt make it seem like cross positions was an auto loss at all. I simply pointed out that on cross positions zerg have an advantage (claim backed by tons of common TvZ stats showing that zerg win more then 50% in xpos and less then 50% in close. Then I drew a conclusion that based on this data larger maps will result in more zerg victories, which I have already experienced on the ladder (I have done quite well against zerg lately actually but my results are significantly lower on the new maps esp in xpos when running the same strategy on both maps, (which is not a 1 base all in).
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Wow, just because he disagrees with "the one and only Griffith" he should get a ban? Really?
I don't see the problem with infestors, this isn't something new. The only new thing is that you actually receive a punishment for being stupid enough having your marines up front. Get some more tanks, seriously.
If he's getting that many infestors he won't have many mutas and so you don't need as many marines and they don't need to cover as big of an area. Spread out your tanks and spread the marines in between. Slow push with tanks in front NOT the marines.
You don't need ghosts and if you get ghosts, learn to use snipe instead of EMP.
But yeah, it must be tough to actually have to think about how you engage the zerg now.
And yes, I am a terran player.
P.S. The stim timing is what scares me, for the same reason as the one Predy gave.
Did you even read the guy's post? It was just personal attacks and trolling.
Lol @ Terrans complaining... Zergs have had to deal with bullshit for months so suck it up and learn how to play? Sorry we finally have a unit that can be considered a counter to something -_-.
I think the main thing people are forgetting is the patch has been out for 1 day. 1 day are you're all QQing? I doubt most people here have actually played more than 5 TvZs since the patch came out and all the people complaining about how ghosts wont work probably haven't even casted an emp on an infestor yet.How about give it some time, actually play some games, adjust your play accordingly, watch how high level players are handling it, and then make assertions that are based off experience instead of knee-jerk reactions. Maybe the infestor might actually turn out to be balanced, you know kinda like how reapers were. ^^
i think it will change just a litte aspect from the game, one scan and the T sees infestors... ohh lets build more tanks and Thors. they switch over and Z is still death... on my sight nothing chanced that much. yes Infestors are now a realy great unit and a perfect answer to Mariens. but when there are just some marines in the unit mix. u do nothing with them against tank thor (okay good against hellions) *in rage mode now, so maybe not a good answer, lost against stupid blueflame hellions when i had at 2 crawler at exp, and one in the main they still killed nearly all workers*
On March 23 2011 23:56 PLxDratewka wrote: OMG, I love 1.3 in ZvT.... It’s about time Blizz fix this imba bull. Now all of u T players need to actually learn how to play good micro game. The only advise that I can give T is to go hellion (herast)> splash of banshee(herast) > Tank Ghost Marauder (ghost not so much to EMP but to snip). The good timing will be a key from now on...
Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy.
Wow, just because he disagrees with "the one and only Griffith" he should get a ban? Really?
I don't see the problem with infestors, this isn't something new. The only new thing is that you actually receive a punishment for being stupid enough having your marines up front. Get some more tanks, seriously.
If he's getting that many infestors he won't have many mutas and so you don't need as many marines and they don't need to cover as big of an area. Spread out your tanks and spread the marines in between. Slow push with tanks in front NOT the marines.
You don't need ghosts and if you get ghosts, learn to use snipe instead of EMP.
But yeah, it must be tough to actually have to think about how you engage the zerg now.
And yes, I am a terran player.
P.S. The stim timing is what scares me, for the same reason as the one Predy gave.
Did you even read the guy's post? It was just personal attacks and trolling.
Okay, sorry. Yet I don't see where I am trolling or where I am attacking Griffith. It's only the first line that is about him, where he says someone is an idiot. Am I the one doing the personal attacks?
[Edit]
Okay, misunderstood what you meant. Still don't see the personal attacks in the post that griffith quoted. I do see the trolling, though.
On March 24 2011 05:53 statikg wrote: (A summary of statikg's post)
Some whining about APM
Basically saying that ravens are necessary yet a "useless investment"
Ghosts are unnecessary.
Some more APM whining.
Suddenly saying that everything is fine if you do a carefully played marine/tank/medivac push.
Whining about cross positions and how the infestor change will give zergs an auto win.
Ravens are a bad investment? Really? Since when? A raven in mid-late game is a must in all TvZs, imo. They let you remove creep without having to scan every 10 feet, they let you spot baneling bombs that would otherwise kill all your marines without having to scan 10 feet. They also have PDDs for mutas. Sure they won't last long but it's something. A raven is NOT a useless investment.
I agree, I don't really see a use for ghosts.
If doing a carefully played marine/tank/medivac works, then what the fuck is the problem?
Cross positions is not an auto loss against zerg like you try to make it seem. It's harder to pressure, sure, but you too can expand. Think about it, taking a third, a step in the right direction.
What you have done mostly here is to create a fallacy called a straw man, you incorrectly represented my position and then shot it down. Also some personal attacks thrown in.
Your points about the raven are valid, they do have some relevant uses. However as I very rarely run into burrowed banelings for some reason (I think most zerg playing ling/bling muta dont get burrow), I find that scanning occasionally to kill creep is worth it because of how constantly gas strapped I am fighting zerg. 200 gas is alot for creep killing... against mutas I generally think the game is decided once the banelings are dead or the marines are dead, its rarely a close fight between mutas and marines that a PDD is going to matter in.
Your other points are poor however. You act like just because its possible for a strat to work, then there cannot be a problem with imbalance. The point is, beforehand the strategy worked with equal chances of winning and losing in fact it was so equal that the results would tip largely based on spawn distance, now because terran has less room for error, the chances of losing has increased, thus imbalance.
I also didnt make it seem like cross positions was an auto loss at all. I simply pointed out that on cross positions zerg have an advantage (claim backed by tons of common TvZ stats showing that zerg win more then 50% in xpos and less then 50% in close. Then I drew a conclusion that based on this data larger maps will result in more zerg victories, which I have already experienced on the ladder (I have done quite well against zerg lately actually but my results are significantly lower on the new maps esp in xpos when running the same strategy on both maps, (which is not a 1 base all in).
Perhaps I misunderstood you then.
About the cross positions, you said it was bullshit. That, to me, implies that it's heavily favored for zerg, I don't agree.
About the imbalance of which you are talking. I just don't see it. Where is it? Just because you have to be more careful now does not mean it's imbalanced, it might very well mean it was imbalanced pre-patch.
Never said that the PDD would do much (I even said it would not but that it at least was SOMETHING in the battles for it to do).
I am sorry if I offended you somehow but none of what I wrote was meant as a personal attack, just my frustration at my fellow terrans crying "IMBALANCE!" day 1.
And since you are the one bringing winning percentages up, what was your percentage pre-patch and what is it now? Also, how many TvZs have you played post-patch? Even further, could you provide a source for all these stats showing the higher winning percentage for zergs on cross positions?
P.S. It is too damn early to start crying about imbalance.
I have used ghosts pre 1.3 patch against infestors, but even pre patch the ghost cost already affects your army comp greatly as ghosts are just way too expensive for what they can do in tvz. I found that forcing fungals to be wasted on my hellions while my main army stays a bit behind to be much more effective than EMPs
All this was pre patch testings with a master league zerg who rushed infestors
Finally the zergys get some love and the people complain like mad, lol. The thing with infestors new buff is now a bioball terran has to treat infestors like high templars. 1 or 2 storms can kill marines and 2 or 3 FGs can kill the same. The patch gives us zergys something to try out. In my games today I can use burrowed infestors kinda like sentrys. When on a head on battle, if you can hide an infestor and fg the back of the army while they are moving in to battle. There are a few less units zergy has to take on right away.
Sucks how people are QQing already because Infestors just turned into sentrys for zergy. Terran, you gotta emp HTs and Sentrys, gotta do that for the infestor now too. Protoss, with the nerf of the K. Amulet feedback may be your new friend for infestors cause you know us zergys will want to leave our infestors fully charged. If zerg will be relying on infestors more you can change the tide of battle with feedbacks, and of course Forcefields.
Sure it gives every player the worrying feeling like when they see a lot of HT's Sentrys and Ghosts, but with experience players will learn how to deal with it. Don't call imba yet, get some practice with the scenario.
infestors overall are pretty much a massive investment of gas with it being 100/150 the same goes with mutas. (100/100) so if there's less mutas out on the map, then that means the zerg has less options for harassment on the terran mid-late game. this means the terran has more time to do what it does best and macro up a large army without that massive ball of 20+ mutas that goes around sniping undefended buildings/etc. fungal growth also relies on energy, and energy from infestors runs out pretty fast after 2 fungals and it doesn't come back for a bit. so if a terran adapts by spreading out their marines put using smaller groups of marines to poke, infestor energy quickly runs out. if the zerg makes too many infestors, he'll be gas starved and unable to make mutas and/or banelings. another point is that infestors are alot slower than the rest of the zling/bling/muta composition, making it a bad option to bring with you on an attack for risk of it being sniped during a possible retreat, and once again infestors aren't cheap at all
all in all, its only been 1 day since the patch came out, i think its too early to be calling any race "imba". i'm sure terrans can stay with their unit comp (rine/tank) but will have to put more emphasis on different ways of doing their attacks/etc. its a matter of time before Ts figure out how to play the matchup again after this patch
On March 24 2011 08:42 -BuNnY wrote: my personal opinion: (as a zerg)
infestors overall are pretty much a massive investment of gas with it being 100/150 the same goes with mutas. (100/100) so if there's less mutas out on the map, then that means the zerg has less options for harassment on the terran mid-late game. this means the terran has more time to do what it does best and macro up a large army without that massive ball of 20+ mutas that goes around sniping undefended buildings/etc.
Can't that gas come from your baneling count, instead?
You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder.
On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder.
You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped .
On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder.
You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped .
Okay? This still makes it easier for him to pick up and leave, because 4 seconds is not a long time.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other useless units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
Finally got in some practice time with my Z partner. I am officially in love with ravens. I really feel that auto-turrets are a great poking device. If you are poking with turrets and keeping your marines on your tanks it becomes very hard to harass the tank line. That way I can constantly know where that little zerg army lies in wait and engage on my terms when I feel safe from fungals. Haven't tried using HSM yet but I hear it works wonders.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
Why for god's sake do people keep bringing up the stupid 'tiers' all the time when one unit combination supposedly loses to another. First of all the entire use of tiers is a bit silly in starcraft 2. Terran 'tiers' are completely not comparible with Zerg 'tiers' at all. In a way you could call stim + shield marines a higher tier then hellions as it actually takes more upgrades... Also sc2 isn't based on the idea that higher tier units are automatically better, this may be the case in other RTSes like Red Alert or whatever but is actually a crappy mechanism. The diversity of sc2 and sc:bw is based alot on the fact that you still need to make tier 1 units in the lategame, rushing to high tier units only which replace lower tier units leads to boring gameplay.
Stating that higher tier units SHOULD beat lower tier numbers is just incredibly stupid, often it is true but there are tons of cases where it isn't. In TvZ marines are just a must build unit because of mutalisks. Sure thors counter mutalisks as well but don't have the mobility to compete on most maps, 'tier 1' units are just essential in this matchup and in fact every matchup...
I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss.
On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss.
wait... you're complaining about nerfs and switching to protoss? What race do you think was most nerfed since patch 1 of the beta?
I really like the infestor now. With the increased damage to fungal it's a lot easier to hold off pushes from terrans and it's even encouraged me to use neural parasite more too. When I random terran I try to snipe infestors with blue flame hellions, but that doesn't work as well as ghosts. I find snipe very underused when terrans play zergs
On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss.
This post pleases me to no end. A terran complaining is like music to my ears.
So far I dont feel too bad about the TvZ changes balance wise, however map wise im a little skeptical of Tal Darim Altar and The Shattered Temple on the map pool, both feel like they are extremely Z favored.
You have to be very very careful now vs infestor play now however. Splitting marines vs fungal is much harder than splittling vs blings. Leap frogging is mandatory now vs a Z that goes infestor.
Cops United Kingdom. March 24 2011 13:16. Posts 49 PM Profile Quote # On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss.
This post pleases me to no end. A terran complaining is like music to my ears.
On March 24 2011 07:15 SubtleArt wrote: Lol @ Terrans complaining... Zergs have had to deal with bullshit for months so suck it up and learn how to play? Sorry we finally have a unit that can be considered a counter to something -_-.
I think the main thing people are forgetting is the patch has been out for 1 day. 1 day are you're all QQing? I doubt most people here have actually played more than 5 TvZs since the patch came out and all the people complaining about how ghosts wont work probably haven't even casted an emp on an infestor yet.How about give it some time, actually play some games, adjust your play accordingly, watch how high level players are handling it, and then make assertions that are based off experience instead of knee-jerk reactions. Maybe the infestor might actually turn out to be balanced, you know kinda like how reapers were. ^^
You guys do know this is a strategy thread? Please try to add to the discussion or rub your hands manically and cry out in joy on your own time. Sorry for rant.
One very current trend I have seen is the July style zerg play that heavily punishes a macro walled-in terran. I haven't done too much looking into pro replays yet to see timings, drone counts, ect but I would like to find a few ways to push back before the bust pushes down your front door. In Morrow vs Jinro in TSL Morrow executes baneling busts very well. The only real ways I can think to counter this is to scout better and reinforce your wall. I don't really like that solution of "Just scout better" because that can be very hard. Problem is, the only thing I can think of is just hide 2-3 SCV's outside your base and use them to, one at a time, poke around in front or near your choke so you can get a judge on the size of the zerg army. Currently, I think these fast-tech and very macro-focused builds need to sacrifice maybe a couple SCVs or a handful of marines just to make sure they don't get mauled. Anyone have any ideas how to approach that bust timing window (i.e. before you have tech or have spent most of your money on economy) in a safer fashion?
I believe this new emerging style of TvZ play should be named after Griffith. Next time I beat a terran using heavy infestor play I shall declare "You have been Griffith'd".
On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder.
You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped .
Okay? This still makes it easier for him to pick up and leave, because 4 seconds is not a long time.
You do realize you can't pick up marines that are fungaled... He also just has to put one more fungal to kill them all, the drop ship is also stuck. He also can try to run away but the zerglings will be there with the delay from the fungal. Horrible Zerg logic, like always, and also, people need to realize that playing Terran does not make you a noob and it is not easy, go play the race if that's your opinion. You will find that currently TvP and TvZ are hell, and TvT is a bore fest.
i'd be pretty happy if t did turn out to be up in the metagame for a bit, i'd love to see people get good at mech and make it work. i find the amount of mm spam to be fairly boring
I don't get why Terrans are complaining about the buff. Pure MMM was always a terrible choice in TvZ. Infestors have always been a good mid-late game counter to MMM, but now they are used more because of the buff.
Infestors are still very bad against high siege tank numbers and are still a high target priority. What you suggested in the OP was a good idea. Use 2-3 marauders to snipe them.
Edit: Drops should be easier to execute, considering that an investment into infestors probably means neglecting mutalisks for air control. Just spread your marines out.
This is just a QQ thread. No replay to ask what could have been done. No willingness to find a solution.
Yes infestors have received a buff, and the unit probably didn't need it.
Yes many players will use infestors in the next weeks because it has just been buffed.
But honesly, I really doubt there is no solution for terran. They have so many different units and possible strategy.
On March 23 2011 12:55 Griffith` wrote: 1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines.
Zerg has 2 counters to marines, so you are saying they still need to use both do deal with this tier 1 unit ?
I used to be able to poke around with a small ball of marines and medivacs in front my tanks. Chain fungals are absolutely brutal now.
Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.
2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine)
1 infester and 1 spine crawler (250minerals/100gas) in each mineral lines, you don't think that's quite expensive to defend against drops ? Not to mention the zerg needs to react in time before you snipe the infestor. Again, just adapt your strategy, if they invest so heavily in defending drops, just do something else. Not to mention that 1 infestor could stop a drop before patch 1.3, maybe even more easily.
3. Zergs don't necessarily rush to infestors, they still do the usual mid game muta harass, but then tend to transition to infestors after the first pack of mutas. Usually this would force me to spam like 3 turrets per base.
I can't see how this is new with patch 1.3
4. Ghosts have even LESS utility given their nerf, quite often the infestors can store up to 175 energy (the 3-4 that infestors are used defensively to prevent drops), meaning that by mid-late I need to land 2 EMPs or more.
If the infestor has 175 energy, there is no reason the ghost should not have enough energy for 2 EMP.
5. My TvZ has always had an emphasis on very fast infantry upgrades (3/3) before 20 minutes, but because fungal completely ignores armor, it makes my armor upgrades not as useful. (Banelings + Fungals = armor is useless)
Again, you are not willing to find solution. You have to adapt your strategy to the game, not the other way around.
I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
This is just a QQ thread. No replay to ask what could have been done. No willingness to find a solution.
Yes infestors have received a buff, and the unit probably didn't need it.
Yes many players will use infestors in the next weeks because it has just been buffed.
But honesly, I really doubt there is no solution for terran. They have so many different units and possible strategy.
On March 23 2011 12:55 Griffith` wrote: 1. Holy hell does fungal hurt now, 4 seconds is still ample time for banelings to roll in and kill your fungaled marines.
Zerg has 2 counters to marines, so you are saying they still need to use both do deal with this tier 1 unit ?
I used to be able to poke around with a small ball of marines and medivacs in front my tanks. Chain fungals are absolutely brutal now.
Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.
2. Drops are much harder to execute - Good zergs are now camping 1 infestor at each base. The instant marines my 8 marines finish dropped they would unburrow the infestor and drop my marine ball's HP to red before any real damage can be done. Add in one spine crawler per base and my drop is pretty much useless. (Before I would be able to snipe off a spine crawler, but now because fungal drops my marine's HP so fast, spine crawlers can 1 shot a marine)
1 infester and 1 spine crawler (250minerals/100gas) in each mineral lines, you don't think that's quite expensive to defend against drops ? Not to mention the zerg needs to react in time before you snipe the infestor. Again, just adapt your strategy, if they invest so heavily in defending drops, just do something else. Not to mention that 1 infestor could stop a drop before patch 1.3, maybe even more easily.
3. Zergs don't necessarily rush to infestors, they still do the usual mid game muta harass, but then tend to transition to infestors after the first pack of mutas. Usually this would force me to spam like 3 turrets per base.
I can't see how this is new with patch 1.3
4. Ghosts have even LESS utility given their nerf, quite often the infestors can store up to 175 energy (the 3-4 that infestors are used defensively to prevent drops), meaning that by mid-late I need to land 2 EMPs or more.
If the infestor has 175 energy, there is no reason the ghost should not have enough energy for 2 EMP.
5. My TvZ has always had an emphasis on very fast infantry upgrades (3/3) before 20 minutes, but because fungal completely ignores armor, it makes my armor upgrades not as useful. (Banelings + Fungals = armor is useless)
Again, you are not willing to find solution. You have to adapt your strategy to the game, not the other way around.
Get out of this thread if you want to complain about us complaining. This is not a qq thread. We're discussing solutions.
On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder.
You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped .
Just drop 4 marines.
Or better, load your medivac with 2 marauders & 4 marines, if there is an infestor you drop the 2 marauders and kill it, while your 4 marines are still in the medivac.
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote: I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.
Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.
Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.
really good spread and high micro skills could make a huge difference, no zerg player is gonna want to cast fungal if he can only hit two units at a time, but for now I can't see the bioball surviving if infestors are on the field.
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow still manages to have 50% survivors.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.
Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
On March 23 2011 13:07 reikai wrote: I don't like it necessarily.... having to spend excess gas on neutralizing zerg versus spending it on a faster upgrade or an extra tank. Also, with zergs basically making infestors a normal thing, mech is just one upgrade away from being Neural'd to death.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.
Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?
On March 24 2011 07:32 Tumor wrote: i think it will change just a litte aspect from the game, one scan and the T sees infestors... ohh lets build more tanks and Thors. they switch over and Z is still death... on my sight nothing chanced that much. yes Infestors are now a realy great unit and a perfect answer to Mariens. but when there are just some marines in the unit mix. u do nothing with them against tank thor (okay good against hellions) *in rage mode now, so maybe not a good answer, lost against stupid blueflame hellions when i had at 2 crawler at exp, and one in the main they still killed nearly all workers*
umad?
And btw, i see the fungal growth spell as a forced psionic storm, and even better, u cannot freaking micro !
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.
Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?
Not going to argue with someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Seriously your every post in this thread is nonsense.
On March 24 2011 17:54 Elean wrote:Just adapt, poke with marauders instead of marines, or magic box your marines.
While some of your points are quite valid, this one got me lying on the floor laughing. I will eat my pants if you show me how to magic box marines against fungal the way you can magic box mutas against thors.
The Fungal growth area of effect is 16 times ! larger than thor splash, while at the same time, mutas are a lot bigger than marines.
Hey all. I just want to throw in some "food for ideas", i'm especialy interested in answers from any 3000 masters terrans or better, because this is very timing-vise thing; 1. the baneling bust; Starting from a normal 2 rax marine pressure oppening, but then taking both gasses a tad faster would alow us to build early siege tech instead of adding 2 more raxes and getting stim. Wouldn't few bunkers and especialy arround 2 siege tanks be able to stop this kind of baneling busts that are currently in use?
2. the mass infestor problem; in the 2 tvz i managed to play, i havent seen a single muta. So bassicly midgame was about roach/infestor and occasionly some lings running arround. No muta means we don't need marines that much to defend tanks, also we don't need to invest in lots of turrets anymore, so we have lots of spare minerals here. So maybe a fast 3rd base as PF and just use it to mine some gass would give us some options of getting a good number of tank/1-2ravens/banshee force with some hellions for herrasing purposes? Could be i'm on compleatly stupid idea, but atm cant test it cause i'm at work. Maybe someone of you give such mix a try? good day, svizcy
I play 3,2k random in masterleague. I find the improvement of the infestor refreshing. The +50% damage output to armored units is nice. Reducing the stun duration is okay as well. However i feel that the damage dealt per second vs Terran units is a bit too high IMO. Terra has to play a bit more Mech style in order to compete with the infestor. Let's see how people will adapt to this play. Since many players will now probably use the infestors in combination with burrow, we might see more detectors used in all MU's. Even on Zerg side.
If u play passive as a terran and slowly take bases with mech, u probably have the best chance. But ofcourse being aggressive or good timing pushes won't work that good as they used to.
On March 24 2011 18:23 Rashid wrote: mass ling bling destroys mm.
mass ling bling muta destroys mmm+mech
mutas destroy every air unit terran has, except maybe BCs.
honestly, besides hoping for the Zerg player to make tons of mistakes, i have absolutely no idea how a terran player such as me is suppose to defeat a zerg player of equal skill.
What?
Marine medivac tank is the most common terran strategy for a long time now, and you want to say that ling/bling/muta destroys that? Seriously why would you even post such nonsense..
Since that's the way IdrA deals with it in every single game against T, i'm not sure why you think it's nonsense.
Forget IdrA, 99% of zergs are using lings, blings and mutas vs. marine, medivac and tank, but that does not mean it destroys that combo. That is pretty balanced fight.
Yes, it's a pretty balanced fight when one side has to carefully position and micro the shit out of their units and still lose while the other only mostly a-moves straight in and somehow manages to still have 50% survivors.
Well you can call that imba when it is happening in silver league, but in higher masters people usually knows how to position tanks well and how to split marines. That's when it becomes for zerg much harder to deal with this combo.
Well since IdrA isn't playing in the silverleague, does this mean i can call it imba?
Not going to argue with someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Seriously your every post in this thread is nonsense.
You're right, arguments backed up by facts are complete nonsense. How silly of me.
Baneling busts are far easier to handle on maps where Terran can wall off with 3 or 4 raxes. Whilst some zergs show that this in itself doesn't hold the Banelings (july vs Nada for example, or the whole TSL3 jinro vs morrow series as a more current example) it is a shitload easier to hold it off.
The frustrating thing about baneling busts is that they have to be blind hard countered and they are performed almost completely blind, and that the builds that are best at stopping them aren't the best at stopping the other Zerg build which is a really fast 3rd (fast stim + medivacs, which is balls against baneling bust). This is one hugely annoying thing about TvZ atm, how hard it can be to correctly detect it and make the proper adjustment to stop it.
Anyway, with stopping banes, yeah, tank as fast as you can with your first 2 gas. Whether it's a 2 rax fe or a 1 rax fe, tanks are your best bet. Blue flame hellions can do ok, but tanks are the optimal.
2) I've seen plenty of mutas, but yeah, infestors. Well, build tanks, engage slowly, keep an eye on his hive tech. There's nothing strictly different about playing against infestors in terms of how you play TvZ, it's just a fuckload more punishing when you get caught out, imo.
Try to add some marauders in your bio tanks army. With stim and Slow Cells, they can catch an infestor pretty easily and they kill them stupidly fast. Because they didn't add that HP buff, Infestors still die in 2 tanks shot too. It can be hard for Zerg to keep them alive during a battle, as Fungal range is not that big.
Personally i don't see a way for mech to work if by mech/work people mean in the sense that heavy metal worked in BW vs. protoss. There are too many options for Z vs. that and 2 of them come from the the one unit - FG/NP.
I'm going to try the hellions/banshee way that someone earlier in the thread mentioned.
As for ghosts, that is laughable. As someone pointed out, there is a reason why people keep linking the same freak of nature ghost vs. z replay for months now - because it rarely works, and probably never for people who have less than godly micro, so examples are few and far between.
Now in 1.3 the situation is worse than before with the ghosts nerf. A slow building, expensive gas intensive unit with a single purpose in the MU, that can only be effective if used almost perfectly, and even then will only nullfiy a small part of the (now inevitable) large amount of infestors that will appear. On top of that, according to the Z players in here, T are now supposed to incorporate many more tanks and possibly even ravens into the MU. And....sacrifice their economy macro to constantly scan for burrowed infestors, so that their possibly semi-effective ghosts can find them and EMP/snipe them. Assuming that all Z are morons and don't protect their infestors.
Nah, the answer isn't ghosts or mech, i suspect if there is an answer, it will lie in a couple of pros showing the way with an unexpected strategy.
it still depends entirely on how well the zerg can use the abilities, and how well the opponent responds, I think mutalisks or pure roach/baneling/zergling whatever you fancy is safer, as they will always (mostly) do damage, the buff to fungal just alleviates this need, but it still exists
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote: I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.
Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.
Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.
well yeah, I suck at marine siege. I'm so cheap I dont want to sac a single tank to mutas so I tend to overreact to the flying blob and move all my marnies after it. Then the zerglnigs come from the other direction and rape my tanks and then the zerg tops it off with blings that instarape the rest of the army. And don't post TvZ battles are equal in micro because we all know how blings roll into clumped armies, and we see it on master streams too.
I'm not complaining about the infestor change - I just have problems with the matchup and need advice.
On March 24 2011 17:57 Cibron wrote: I'm at a complete loss in TvZ since patch. Siege/marine never worked for me anyway and now I have to deal with two hard counters against marines?
If zerg gets both muta and infestor lategame I really dont see any unit composition that can handle them right now. BC/Tank/Hellion maybe?
I've been trying to incorporate a ghost based air defense into my play but it's so hard to get that of two bases. Anyone have some nice ghost builds to share??
All in all I'm really happy about the patch though since the amu nerf was needed badly.
If siege marine never worked for you then you just don't know how to use them - it has nothing to do with infestors.
Also this infestor change is only good if zerg has a lot of infestors! It doesn't change much when zerg has 1-2 infestors. And if zerg has a lot of infestors that mean he has much less mutas and banelings.
Terran players make seem like infesors are super strong now, while the biggest change is that people started to use them more frequently, that's why it looks like that.
well yeah, I suck at marine siege. I'm so cheap I dont want to sac a single tank to mutas so I tend to overreact to the flying blob and move all my marnies after it. Then the zerglnigs come from the other direction and rape my tanks and then the zerg tops it off with blings that instarape the rest of the army. And don't post TvZ battles are equal in micro because we all know how blings roll into clumped armies, and we see it on master streams too.
I'm not complaining about the infestor change - I just have problems with the matchup and need advice.
Running banelings after the marines for zerg players is much easier, BUT if you can split marines well then you have a huge advantage, and you are going to win a fight. That means that marines have huge potencial being very good even vs. banelings, while banelings are going to be always the same - you just move command them, and if terran have good micro they just die.
I played some monobattles with Infestors and have to say that you NEED 3 bases gathering gas to support Infestors. They are so fricking gas heavy and can "only" use 2 fungal. So if you keep poking at different spots, you can easily get around that issue.
oh, so now T cant play with marine (T1) , tank only, what a sad story . its time to use higher tecth to counter infestors, try ghosts and ravens, or blueflame masshellions...
Every terran unit besides SCV, Mule, Banshee and the raven can kill an infestor in 1-3 seconds. Terrans just have to change their tactics of playing chasemaster in seigetank range because it doesn't work anymore lol.
It's worse than warp in storm. Exactly what the game needed ,really. They couldn't buff hidras or something ,wich are utter shit anyway. They had to make an abillity that was just fine, a long stun with moderate dmg into a storm like abillity that rapes bio even worse than storm. And ofc infestors are better than templars atm ,templars are slow as hell. Infestors can burrow and have good speed on creep. Just keep one at every expo = drops are over in TvZ.
On March 24 2011 20:49 Willes wrote: oh, so now T cant play with marine (T1) , tank only, what a sad story . its time to use higher tecth to counter infestors, try ghosts and ravens, or blueflame masshellions...
Terran don't use low tier units by choice, they use them because their higher tier units suck. I'd love to use more of my high tech units like thors, bcs, banshees, ravens - but they are even more susceptible to infestors than marines are - neural parasite completely shuts down terran high tech units. Before the patch, zerg didn't get many infestors so you could at least use a few bcs or thors but now every zerg is gonna have infestors in their army and if you use thors/bcs you are just asking to be NP'ed.
Also, it's quite funny that you suggest using higher tier units and list ghosts and hellions as examples, which are quite low tech.
Infestors are as bad a design as templars are, because the combination of their 2 spells make them effective against a wide range of units. I wish they'd distribute the 2 spells among different units. The only units that neither neural parasite nor fungal growth are effective against is probably the siege tank and maybe marauders.
So you effectively need tanks just to protect the rest of your army from infestors - which is not bad in itself, it just makes the matchup more one-dimensional and also creates problems on some (big) maps.
Clearly I think the solution remains in doing more of what we were already doing: lots and lots of constant early game drone killing to delay the infestors just like we would delay the mutas pre 1.3. Macro mechanics give terran the opportunity to take a lead early game. Let's make sure we do that and keep it.
I think I'll be more than happy if zerg are rushing to infestor if that means skimping out on some mutas. If my 2-3 turrets per base can *gasp!* ACTUALLY hold off mutas now because they'll be in reasonable numbers, I'll be a happy Terran. Wow, imagine a meta-game where it is reasonable for Terran to move out of his base now. Might not have to go all-in now if backstabs aren't a problem anymore.
On March 23 2011 22:57 REM.ca wrote:I can have 3 split ghosts vs 18 banelings and survive.
Wow, then you really are a lot better in micro than me. I mean i'm not complaining, it's ok for the game to require actual skill sometimes. I'm just saying that the micro required to make ghosts work with snipe is beyond my skill. I'm certainly no micro god but at 3500 masters, i cannot make it work.
Nah it's really not that hard. Remember Ghosts can take 5 bling hits before dying so you only need to land 4 snipes. Give it 2 minutes of practice and you'll be coming out of that fight alive easypeazy.
Show us a replay please
Not a replay but I made a video to demonstrate the potential of snipe:
I realize this kind of experiment in the unit tester doesn't have much natural validity. Whether or not the potential of ghosts can be exploited in a real game scenario definitely needs a lot of experimenting.
i can either go infestors OR go muta's, both have a weakness and a streangth
mutas cant't deal with a direct attack, infestors can, mutas can deal with seig tanks, infestors can't, mutas grant a small ammount of map controle time, infestors don't.
yes i can get both but as zerg you need numbers for things to be effective.
i find its really up to you terrans what you do now, mid game now isn't so much of a zerg much react to ### of the terran.
Has anyone got into this situation before? The infestor fungaled my marines, and then threw an inrfested terran into them. The tank blasted all the marines at once. I loled so hard.
I have been experimenting a long time with the 4OC bio pressure, ASM's marine/raven build and my own that hinged on heavy air play with hellions on the ground. From those experiment I have gained the following:
You must have siege tanks or a Zerg will just roll you with ling/bling. Besides siege tanks, there is no ground problem that a large enough number of banelings won't handle. I have experienced it often enough, that 40+ baneling rolled into my PF blowing it up, taking all the SCVs with them and then just continuing to the next expand rolling through the mineral line and possibly the next. Marauders take way too long to put a dent into the bling train if you have just splashed them in to soak banelings and marauders constitute the majority of your forces, you just get overrun by regular splings that deal with marauders with ease. Hellions just stand by and watch the bling train run you over and thors again are just horrible vs splings.
So any composition must either put constant pressure on the Zerg, trading each time efficiently to avoid a baneling buildup, or must contain tanks to defend key points sacrificing mobility. Tanks must be protected against air and the only thing that can do this properly is marines with - when the muta numbers grow larger - thor support. Which led me back to the standard composition.
I also observed, that you can challenge the air superiority with vikings, but you sacrifice so much ground control in the process, that zerg just stops making mutas, masses ground and runs you over with the banelings as you will lack tanks. Yes, you can have banshees killing off the ground forces, but they won't be fast enough to clean up the ground forces.
I think I will try heavy mech next with minerals going into hellions and turrets to support the thors against magic box mutas.
Edit: I think the biggest problem with mech is that it is extremely gas heavy but lacks the mobility to defend multiple bases in order to gain the needed gas income. Zerg compositions are equally gas heavy, but their compositions are mobile enough to defend as many expansions as needed.
Um guys, I completely agree that Zerg has slight advantage but I read through most of this thread and nobody said anything about cloak. Using cloak and sniping overseers then you'd have a nice window to go to town on the Infestors. And what about Ravens, does the PDD shoot down fungals? I'd imagine it's not as feasible because you'd have to protect the unit so much but just wondering.
On March 25 2011 03:04 Cyrusis wrote: Um guys, I completely agree that Zerg has slight advantage but I red through most of this thread and nobody said anything about cloak. Using cloak and sniping overseers then you'd have a nice window to go to town on the Infestors. And what about Ravens, does the PDD shoot down fungals? I'd imagine it's not as feasible because you'd have to protect the unit so much but just wondering.
FG reveals cloaked units. When they do get overseers, by the time you use cloak and get off 5 snipes +25 cloak energy (150 energy gone already) to kill an overseer you'll have no energy left anyways.
terran can improve TvZ by using hellions more to shut down baneling/speedling. and using missile turret spam to defend tanks.
turret spam and legobase are very effective against muta harrass. 6-7 turret in close proximity can reduce a ball of 20 mutas down to 4-5 - and 4-5 mutas cant do anything.
I guess a Mech Terran can deal with Infestor with much more ease. Tanks, Marauder, marines , Ghosts could seal the deal. Maybe Ravens could be incorporated in the late stages of the game. I'm starting to think that some builds are going to start to look quite Fantasy-esque now that Bio play isn't as potent as it once was.
1. Last patch it was 8 seconds.. 4 seconds would be better to pull away. 2. Zergs are starting to learn how to not rely on muta for drop play. Game is evolving. 3. What? Muta mid game then into muta+infestor+bane/ling? Nothing has changed in zvt in this part. 4. Terran will learn how to adapt. Every race has adapted to somewhat of an alternative. 5. Nothing has changed here. Last patch was the same thing. Like i said before, zergs are evolving and using infester play.
Over all, coming from a zerg player, I think terran will be fine. Infester play allows zerg not to only rely on muta, but we can also tech to ulta and not worry about drops because we have infesters in our bases. Good luck~
On March 25 2011 02:20 canikizu wrote: Has anyone got into this situation before? The infestor fungaled my marines, and then threw an inrfested terran into them. The tank blasted all the marines at once. I loled so hard.
On March 25 2011 02:20 canikizu wrote: Has anyone got into this situation before? The infestor fungaled my marines, and then threw an inrfested terran into them. The tank blasted all the marines at once. I loled so hard.
Yes. That's elementary even before the 1.3. Infestors can very easily force an unsiege. All the zerg need to do is invest another 100 in burrow, and throw a infested terran once in a while to punish the leapfroggin'
But still, even more gas requirement of 2 bases is hard for z.
On March 24 2011 21:30 REM.ca wrote: Clearly I think the solution remains in doing more of what we were already doing: lots and lots of constant early game drone killing to delay the infestors just like we would delay the mutas pre 1.3. Macro mechanics give terran the opportunity to take a lead early game. Let's make sure we do that and keep it.
I think I'll be more than happy if zerg are rushing to infestor if that means skimping out on some mutas. If my 2-3 turrets per base can *gasp!* ACTUALLY hold off mutas now because they'll be in reasonable numbers, I'll be a happy Terran. Wow, imagine a meta-game where it is reasonable for Terran to move out of his base now. Might not have to go all-in now if backstabs aren't a problem anymore.
I don't know. There is probably something us terrans can be doing better against infestor and we need to wait to see how that goes. What I wanted to say though is, I'd rather want those annoying mutas back rather than the infestor. I atleast know how to counter mutas, get a few turrets up, get thors if the flock becomes to big and keep tabs on them to prevent to much harassment.
Infestors... I felt they were pretty strong before patch, now I just don't know what to do. My experience: I try do some early dmg via rines, get maybe slightly ahead, force a few units. Zerg goes roaches to hold while teching. I can do very little direct dmg until stim is done. By this time, zerg is close to having(or has) infestors with 75 energy and all my engagements need to be done behind 2+ tanks. Then lategame... Blord+infestor+corruptor = I have no idea how to engage, just that I don't want to face that again. Before sure the zerg could immobilize your vikings, preventing kiting, but now it's just brutal :/
Ghosts: I suppose it will be worth it having 1 ghost in your army, just to hope you can get EMP off on a few infestors, but I've done a lot of testing and trying with it in TvZ and well 150 gas is just to expensive for a unit that does mediocre dps vs light and crap dmg else. Sure snipe is good.. in theory, but it both requires a lot of APM(ontop of the very high battle APM terran requires already) and you basically need each ghost to kill 4-6blings, 3-5 roaches, 1 infestor, 1.5 mutas or ton of zlings. That's a lot of kills(and energy), but not only are those the reason why ghosts are... hard to use, but the snipe ability is so stupidly gimped with shift that when your army gets big enough it's pretty much impossible to unload the energy in a timely fashion(if ghosts begins auto attacking, shift+snipe goes off after he's done attacking).
TL:DR It'll obviously take longer to let all the dust settle, but right now I think it will be the rise of the zerg. (again we'll see how this all develops, but I personally think the "FG only effects ground" would be a good nerf. I was against it in december but with the brutal dps of FG now and more importantly it's synergy with corruptor/muta+blords I think it might be in order. This all from TvZ perspective).
I feel its so easy for me on certain maps to stop zerg from taking thirds with this specific and tight build order I do for a very potent marine/tank army (in terms of numbers) at the 9-10 minute mark. Basically, that is the KEY to stopping infestor play. Infestors are really expensive in gas, and supporting enough infestors and banelings on 2 base is really damn hard. Your goal should always be to reduce the amount of bases he can mine gas from, trying your best to limiting him to 2 as much as possible around the midgame. If it gets to 3, you better have had your third before him for a while or have a super strong push with ghosts ready or else the infestor ling bling armies will destroy.
The best thing to do vs infestors now is have all your siege tanks at the front (spread out) with around 5-10 marines spread out completely, with a missile turret or some scans ready to take out any burrowed infestors looking to throw fungals or infested terran infestors. The rest of the marines should be behind the tanks or just spread around them. You basically DO NOT want marines are the front or all over your tanks like you would vs mutas. It's not like he'll have mutas and infestors at the same time until maybe like 4-5 bases mining for him. So, you need to abuse the fact that he has lost map control and the ability to easily pick off siege tanks by picking infestors and simply be much more careful and pick a good spot to control (usually somewhere near his third so you can stop him from taking it).
Basically, the best solution to the change is not a new composition...its just a different way of controlling your armies. The infestor pretty much makes the army of the zerg almost as strong as the terran army food-wise because of fungal growth. However, he gives up the superior map control and harassment he had with mutas. Sure, you can fungal scvs, but usually that will only come into play once you're on 3-4 bases, because before that you're obviously much less spread out, but in that case you need to be sending a unit or two around the bases on patrol or something the same way he made a decision to send a unit to your base.
Do terrans really think that zerg can just get infestors+bane+mutas as easily as they make it sound? Its infestor OR muta not both at the same time. Zerg may transition from one unit to another but really thats on you as the opponent to scout out. Actually scan a bit instead of mindlessly spamming mules and then change your unit comp accordingly. Add tanks for infestors and more marines/thors for mutas. I'll also add that I find it very hard to keep my infestors alive vs tanks (one misclick and you lose your entire group of infestors) if they take their time to push instead of just sprinting to my base. Drops are still just as viable if you scan BEFORE you drop and the player with better reaction speed/micro will win just like it should be and not auto rape for terran. Its way too early for terrans to be complaining about imbalance and theres also alot of crap being spewed by everyone including zerg players. Honestly for now I'm satisfied because I no longer have to face 3k master league terran players with 45 apm. Should cull the complete scrubs back down to diamond and the real master leaguers can remain and adapt. 1 month from now if infestor is deemed unbalanced and destroying pro terrans go ahead and nerf it but I just dont see it right now.
On March 25 2011 04:00 gREIFOCs wrote: Did anyone said: "Just spread your marines more?". I mean, as Zerg going infestors before 3 bases is really gas heavy.
One infestor could be replaced by 6 banelings. So cost-wise, just a well spread army of marines really makes fg not really cost effective.
I think this is a good solution, given enough space. A pre-split was already a good idea against banelings (not so much against lings.) Notably against players like Leenock who like to lay burrowed banelings around on large maps.
Drops will probably have to be bigger and more spread out (not just dropped in a clump) which requires much more attention.
What I like about the fungal change is that they made zerg much more dangerous in closed spaces (like the corridor behind the 3rd expansion in xel naga caverns)
On March 25 2011 01:55 TibblesEvilCat wrote: from a zerg view,
i can either go infestors OR go muta's, both have a weakness and a streangth
mutas cant't deal with a direct attack, infestors can, mutas can deal with seig tanks, infestors can't, mutas grant a small ammount of map controle time, infestors don't.
yes i can get both but as zerg you need numbers for things to be effective.
i find its really up to you terrans what you do now, mid game now isn't so much of a zerg much react to ### of the terran.
I've got the solution for you. Use the mutas for map control and keeping Terran in his base. Expand rapidly and then have so much gas that you can afford the infestors too.
On March 25 2011 01:55 TibblesEvilCat wrote: from a zerg view,
i can either go infestors OR go muta's, both have a weakness and a streangth
mutas cant't deal with a direct attack, infestors can, mutas can deal with seig tanks, infestors can't, mutas grant a small ammount of map controle time, infestors don't.
yes i can get both but as zerg you need numbers for things to be effective.
i find its really up to you terrans what you do now, mid game now isn't so much of a zerg much react to ### of the terran.
I've got the solution for you. Use the mutas for map control and keeping Terran in his base. Expand rapidly and then have so much gas that you can afford the infestors too.
Then terran can build turrets and then move out with marines and destroy all those bases. Thank god the game really isnt as dumb as you make it sound.
I haven't found it to be much of an issue. spreading marines was already key against banes, and siege tanks are still completely awesome. for people that went marine->tankmarinethor the patch didn't change a lot. I do notice zergs trying to not go muta but thats not a good idea lol.
On March 25 2011 04:40 dekuschrub wrote: I haven't found it to be much of an issue. spreading marines was already key against banes, and siege tanks are still completely awesome. for people that went marine->tankmarinethor the patch didn't change a lot. I do notice zergs trying to not go muta but thats not a good idea lol.
tvp is another issue
I completely agree Z can not make muta bane infestor off of 2 base. WHen Z does get infestor you have to really spread, doding blings was way to easy just stim and run behind tanks was herp derp easy. Now TvZ is way more epic and challenging because you really ahve to spread and leap frog tanks hardcore.
Observations: -If you didn't build hellions, you will probably need them now that marines become quite a bit less effective. -Zerg AA is still pitiful (lol hydralisku), you guys might try migrating to more port heavy plays (as in 2 fast 1 port instead of 3 facts) with banshee since the melee upgrade route for zerg gives them only infestors, queens, and static for AA.
People haven't been using the thing a lot less lately. So much so that incontrol doesn't really complain much about it anymore. And even then, just to detect, Zerg has to pay gas. Banshees are quite efficient because killing one infestor or taking away that infestor's energy makes your banshee cost back.
Or you can even making a huger amount of tanks and learn the art of slow push. Infestors against tanks is not particularly advantageous for a zerg with no muta.
dude, any race that invest units at their base to defend should be able to hold off a drop... the best part of the drops is that they're fast and usually involve the element of surprise. Thats like saying if terran leaves 3 marines at their mineral line they can snipe my medivac...
Its a dance between infestors, muta, and tanks. Personally I still haven't been using infestors much; I prefer muta/ling/bling/roach against rine/tank for the stronger counterattacks that roaches give (not to mention deals with hellions). I find tanks horrid to deal with without a big ball of mutas, and I still prefer the big cloud of muta harass.
On March 25 2011 05:07 Antisocialmunky wrote: Observations: -If you didn't build hellions, you will probably need them now that marines become quite a bit less effective. -Zerg AA is still pitiful (lol hydralisku), you guys might try migrating to more port heavy plays (as in 2 fast 1 port instead of 3 facts) with banshee since the melee upgrade route for zerg gives them only infestors, queens, and static for AA.
People haven't been using the thing a lot less lately. So much so that incontrol doesn't really complain much about it anymore. And even then, just to detect, Zerg has to pay gas. Banshees are quite efficient because killing one infestor or taking away that infestor's energy makes your banshee cost back.
Or you can even making a huger amount of tanks and learn the art of slow push. Infestors against tanks is not particularly advantageous for a zerg with no muta.
As I have written before: You need to focus on the air dominance early. As soon as your vikings are outnumbered by his mutas and you move out you lose them all due to them being slower. Just because infestors are highlighted in the patch, doesn't mean your zergy opponent won't play mutas. Zergs can now rather save the gas used for banelings and invest it into infestors keeping the mutas. Out of the 3 big gas sinks they could always afford two (muta bane) so I see no reason why they could afford muta/infestor, too if they are conservative with their mutas.
They problem with air is that you are forced to maintain dominance. If you are caught outnumbered in the field, you suffer heavy losses. With the spawn mechanics it's really hard to gauge how long it's safe and just because you have the vikings to contest the air doesn't mean mutas are useless. They are still faster and can harass where ever the vikings are not. You need air superiority first before you can deploy any AtG DPS and that forces you to invest so much into air, that you get overrun on the ground. I have a few replays where I tried to go for a viking/BC/BFhellion composition reasoning that vikings take care of corruptors, hellions take care of hydras (and min sink) and BC deal with the rest. Taking a 3rd with this is nearly impossible though and you are vulnerable to just being overrun by mass banelings, if he doesn't get any mutas after the initial few and instead pumps his gas into banes to a move into your base. Or roaches that over run you..
Though I have to say, that I never understood why the infestor wasn't used pre-patch. Against a turtle terran you can forgo banes (though get the nest and upgrade) and make mutas first and then infestors. If Terran moves out, delay with fungal and use gas for banelings.
Maybe try a sort of old SCBW push? Involve more turrets IN your attack path (i.e. making turrets next to your tanks and marines) thus you can release the amount of marines needed, and get more hellions to deal with lings. Along with the turrets comes the detection range to snipe out those annoying creeptumors which stop you from making more turrets. I'm talking a very slow push. Wall off your base to stop counter ling attacks.
I still think bio/tanks can work, but I wouldn't be suprised to see more mech against zerg. And I'm glad about that. MMM is boring to watch
I have an idea to open 1/2/2 just as I do against Terran (I'm basically using Griffiths terran tactic).
- Build marines and possibly a bunker at entrance. - Go blueflamed-hellions and start harrasing while building up the 2 ports. - Switch harass to banshee but continue making hellions. - Expand and move forward to start producing BC from the ports.
Counter corrupers with ravens PDD and vikings that are set to follow the BCs (makes them more spread out and requires less micro BC are easy to spread out so infestors will have a hard time focusing down the vikings.
This basically means you will need at least 2 ravens with your army, but that's only one additional to a standard terran army. You will also need maybe 2 additional ports with reactor to pump out vikings as soon as you see the Z go corrupters. In my experience you wont need that many vikings since the BC will take up a lot of damage from the corrupters and 1-2 PDDs will make a huge difference against corrupters.
The infestors can still neural parasite the BCs but they will have to doge the yamato cannon and you can always bring 4-6 bansee with you to snipe down the infestors.
The main problem is that its very gas heavy and requires a lot of production facilities to rebuild an army. Since I'm only a low level player I have probably missed a few important things that makes the build kinda fail
Edit: Since the BCs now are faster, aren't they easier to micro back when they get low health? Forcing corrupters to follow or change target.
It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch.
I didnt get to play against terran since 1.3, but I love the patch I was going mutaless infestor builds before and they can really be damn good what I liked to do, and will try to do even more TvZ: the usual fast expand stuff with a fast lair+infestor tech of 2gas. (this can hold pretty everything if well exectued + adjusting here or there) and then all you pretty much do is get more and more expansions, get more zerglings+a handful of infestors + heavy upgrades DONT TRY TO SATURATE YOUR EXPOS, AND DONT GET TOO MUCH GAS get a ton of upgraded zerglings, so it feels like you make too many units, but not enough eco (you dont need a lot of eco if you only produce zerglings!) the cool things is, zerglings slow terrans expos, and your amount+infestors just beats them open field but as you have so many expos, terrans need to do damage some time because once you have a sizable army, you might through in a wave of drones from like 4 infused hatches, getting you from like 35-40 to 60drones immidiatly
also this build allows you get a fast hive with already heavily upgraded ultras, and they're best friend, the infestor, already on the field.
the strong point of this build really is that you get a lot of hatches and upgrades and the hive very fast (sometimes around 15min). its main problem is heavy 2base push. against this you need to counterattack properly, or at least slow and soften him with fungals, and force a lot of sieges.
I havent seen this build anywhere yet (TLO did some heavy zergling expansion play in some huskystarcraft cast I think) but I (3200 Masters) had some success with it, and I dont even think Im using half of its potential. (thinking about mixing in small amounts of banelings, heavy nydus counterattacks, infestor harrass, drops, basetrades, stockpiling some gas for a heavy tech switch mid-lategame)
Maybe we should be less vague and dreamy when discussing TvZ. I as a random player tell you that neither race is particular easy to play(Terran or Zerg. Protoss feels easier though, cough colo/voidray cough).
What I think is the more dangerous change though is the newly delayed stim. I had my problems with the new baneling busts anyway and I don´t know a better way than having 2+ spaced bunkers behind my wall. Anyway, aside from that you can´t actually do freaky shit like sky terran with viking + banshees without super turtling behind that. I speak of double walloffs and random bunkers in your bases because you won´t have many tanks(air is expensive).
All the tactics in the world sound nice, but you have to survive until you can afford them. If I would theorycraft a safe build for terran, it would involve expand+fast tanktech then going for hellion harass while building up a few ghosts. Ghosts are expensive too, but with snipe they can punish muta harass for a while(until energy runs dry) and scare away from infestor. And while we´re dreaming, You could make cloak and drop nukes with 2 man teams(1 for the nuke, other to snipe overseers).
But this won´t become flavor of the month because this is hard like hell to the point where nearly nobody will try it out. Also you need 25 energy for cloak + ticking and 5 snipes to kill an overseer so overall 150+ energy on 1 ghost or build more ghosts(less tanks). Probably too gimmicky.
In the end you will either see roach/ling/bling into infestor/muta or muta/bling since you want mapcontrol and need something vs. bio/biomech. Pure mech gets owned by roaches or mutas kinda easily and only bling or infestor can actually deal with bioballs evenly.
People will never do the hard shit over the easy shit just because it looks more skilled. They will do what works. And the new infestor might work as well or better than banelings vs. bio.
On March 25 2011 07:11 Griffith` wrote: It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch.
You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
what about getting a few ghosts to snipe the infesters. you can also use the ghosts against mutas decently and hydra so they are not a complete waste if they stop infester play.
What used to be very strong, and I suspect will be coming back, is thor-banshee mixes. Thors can almost ignore fungal, and banshees are for sniping off infestors that try to NP. As a mineral dump, I use both marines and BFH. This gives you a very mobile, flexible harassment, and when it's time, they can move out and eat almost all unit compositions, except mass roaches followed by a small flock of mutas to clean up banshees.
This was the old comp I used, I don't remember why I stopped using it. I have a few dozen reps of it.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
He's terran, of course he doesn't use anything but tier one units. Soon the game'll develop where terran isn't allowed mobility because you know, our tier one are dying to everything. Just a question: why do magic boxed mutas counter thors so hard? I mean tier three vs tier two. Magic box isn't hard to do either.
You know, if you're still thinking of strategy games as tier1< tier2<tier3 , you might want to discuss something else.
Maybe my sarcasm didn't translate well. He was suggesting it was ridiculous that terran players use marines throughout the entire game and that we're whining because "Zomg a higher tech unit can kill us!". I was giving an example where his view is completely wrong.
On March 23 2011 17:47 Baum wrote: I thought Infestors got worse against Marines (same dmg, decreased stun) or am I mistaken here?
it is the exact same damge but in half the time, so twice the damage per second. also the major difference is now the fungals deal damage faster than medics can heal.
I kind of like the talk of getting air dominance. My thought is get a starport up asap and when >2 vikings roll out. Expand while killing ovies/attempting to supply block behind heavy bunkers (to prevent ling runbys and discourage busting. If you keep a steady stream of vikings and get 3 more ports up with your expo, you can start to crank out viking/banshee and my favorite, Raven. I think ravens are the key to getting air dominance in TvZ. Now this alone has some problems. Mostly being that they could just make a ton of banelings and go murder you. My thought for a mineral dump would be straight blue-flame hellions. They roast zerglings, banelings, and hydras like none other. Luckily, the natural enemies of hellions "roaches/infestors" are countered by banshees! Against a roach/hydra ball you have the Raven PDD to buy your banshees precious seconds to pick of roaches and vikings to kill overseers. Then you flip the cloak, move your other air away and move the hellions in to clean up (should be severely diminished roach numbers...or at least dented).
Now I can think of ways infestors can seriously gum this up (haha I laugh at my own jokes). Air stacking allows a well placed fungal to annihilate your vikings. Banshees suffer slightly less (being non-armored) but mobility really is key. I think treating small groups of banshees+vikings like you would treat small groups of a tank+marines would help this considerably. I suggest becoming accustom to using 4 hotkeys and/or being able to box and spread your air.
I will try to get some replays but my skills are not master (or even diamond) yet. I would be interested in watching someone of higher skill level put this through some hoops. GL for now though fellow terran.
You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
if you spread out fungal and tank splash isn't so strong, and if you dont, you cant throw an infested marine in the middle, because there is simply no space for it, so the infestor will throw it to the side of the marines, where only few get splashed.
You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
if you spread out fungal and tank splash isn't so strong, and if you dont, you cant throw an infested marine in the middle, because there is simply no space for it, so the infestor will throw it to the side of the marines, where only few get splashed.
well if he spreads out there will be space in the middle.
Just a scenario I was thinking about, everyone here says the answer to infestors is a lot of tanks, but as soon as broodlords are out on the field Terran has a VERY hard time killing them and ends up having their tanks work against them. FG is very effective against vikings which used to be the conventional approach to BLs and Ghosts sniping BL's leaves less snipes for infestors.
The one thing I don't like about ghosts is that they are very 1 dimensional in TvZ, you get them explicitly to counter infestors and serve little role other then that. One might say that snipe is a very valuable ability but the truth is that you really need to save your snipes for infestors.
I think the problem is that infestors counter (to some extent) almost every terran unit except for tanks. Infestors' FG destroys marines and vikings. NP is very effective against Thors and Ghosts (if you emp the other ghosts with it). Hellions don't really kill infestors fast enough. Not to mention infested terran is another decent ability.
I'm not really sure how the numbers work out but Thors aren't really sufficient AA against Mutas. Of course with Infestors Z can't produce as many mutas, but then again Z doesn't have to make banelings anymore so maybe they could use that gas for mutas? But as I said, I don't play Z so i don't know how that would work out.
This is all coming from a 2k Diamond T so take it with a grain of salt and of course this is all theorycrafting
The BL transition is always a problem, but you actually don't need that many vikings to deal with them. Remember you'll also have marines and likely a couple thors, that - while not ideal - can help the the BLs too.
However, with many zerg now getting a fast infestation pit, they also get hive tech earlier. This has throw off my timings to get vikings more than once and i thing i need to adept my timings a bit.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post
First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
ZvT feels eh right now. I mean yeah zergs had a rough time versus protoss, but why give us storm?
Big marine balls are absolutely laughable right now, they just die so quickly and its really hard to keep your marines spread constantly while pushing. I'm feeling for the terran players right now =/ . ZvT was my worst match up granted, but the new fungal just doesnt feel right vs T. It feels TOO strong.
It seems like T's have to add ghosts into the mix much sooner now, but they will have to skimp on tanks to get the ghosts. I hope you guys can find a good timing on getting the ghost, and get constant scouting on the zerg base.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post
First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
I don't know who is serrious in this topic anymore or who is here to troll. -__- Only thing i can see is that ppl need to focus more on strategy and less on the damn this op this up debate, cause it ain't helping! - rant over -
As for terran tiers; rax, factory starport with no add ons T1, with tech labs T2, with building armory/core is T3, thats how i see it.
On March 25 2011 19:25 Dalavita wrote: First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
So whats a ghost then ? tier1 ? tier2 ? tier1.5 ? By your logic medivacs and vikings should be tier3. However, when i talk about mmm, i get discredited with "lol tier1 army" even though those medivacs are tier3.
Just forget about "tiers", it's a concept that's not applicable to the sc2 techtree, and it's also irrelevant because sc2 isn't designed in the way that higher tier units are better than lower tier units and should beat them. There are plenty examples for low tech units being the intended counter for high tech units: zerglings thors and immortals. marines beat mutas and voidrays. and so on. This is intended design, get over it.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
User was warned for this post
First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
thors definitely are tier 3
id say
rax = tier 1 rax with add-on = tier 1.5 factory and starport without add-on = tier 2 rax with add-on + ghost academy = tier 2.5 factory with add-on + armory or starport with techlab = tier 3 starport with techlab + fusion core = tier 3.5
in general i think bio or biomech has gotten a huge nerf with the patch. its not only that fungal was buffed massively against bio, its also that early stim timing attacks have gotten much weaker, aswell as more defensive builds which rely on bio to defend.
in my opinion pure mech or air/mech styles or "a bit of everything"-styles will be the future of the matchup. and with pure mech, i mean a more thor-centric style. like.... thor:tank = 2:1 or something like that. this should give enough defense against mutas, while also giving enough tanks to deal with roaches or NP-ing infestors. hellions deal with lings and prevent the zerg from expanding completely unpunished while you build up the deathball.
The problem is that the ghost is a purely reactive unit and an extremely expensive one at that, too.
The main reason you get a ghost is to take out some of the opposing spell casting, which is why you rarely see them in TvT as terran casters are just not that great.
With EMP only draining 100 energy, the main role of the ghost is nerfed, plain and simple. This shows as players are now considering snipe as an alternative. From an energy point of view it's better to snipe one infestor than to EMP him. With two infestors in an EMP radius, it depends on the energy level (one or more is close to max, snipe - both are around 100, EMP) and EMP is only the clear winner for 3+ infestors in one AoE.
Against toss, the EMP wins most of the time, due to shield damage and the ability to take out sentries (why can a big sniper round not shatter that damn central crystal?). Still the high price tag for a ghost means you only get them to counter a direct spell casting threat. That is the problem. HT and infestors are good in most situations. Ghosts suck hard against T and Z except in special situations. So if you get them preemptively and your opponent decided not to go infestors as an example, you are WAY behind.
The next problem with ghosts is the cloaking. The nature of EMP and snipe means that ghosts need to disable their target before it can cast their spells. An EMP hitting the HTs after they have cast their storms is a failure. As the prime ghost targets (HT and infestors) should never be in the first rank, it means ghosts need to act in front of the terran army in the most vulnerable position. This turns cloaking into a 'mission critical update' quoting day9. There is only one problem: Cloaking drains the energy ghosts need to disable opposing casters. In order to have a 20 second cloak mission that ends in an EMP, a ghost needs 118 energy. It is not possible to cloak longer than 27 games seconds and fire 2 EMPs. It also means that most of the time a successful EMP results in the ghost being killed as he runs out of energy seconds after the EMP.
To sum up why ghosts are not a good unit except against Protoss: - One Trick Pony = only trained to reduce opposing spell casting - Most expensive spell caster after the raven - Reliance on cloak means a drastically reduced effective energy pool for main spells - Preemptive ghosts force little or no direct response from the opponent
I would love to see cloak change to only drain energy when a ghost moves or fires. When a ghost is idle and cloaked, it recovers energy at half (or 25%) the normal rate. Combo that with ocular implants (50/50/50 upgrade) that increases sight and snipe range to 15, a changed snipe ability that deals 15(+1) damage with +20(+2) bonus to psionic and +35 (+3) bonus to biological for 35 energy (target armor is NOT ignored).
This would give ghosts a map control option spotting for the terrans at points of tactical importance and being able to ambush forces with snipe or EMP.
Snipe is good but its kinda like feedback vs EMP where one player has to click on one unit and the other player could just spam click over everything else.
I guess if you're curious, you should look at Jinro's games from the beta.
Well i'm thinking more on mass tank play atm, supported with some form od detection/anti air. So maybe to go litle more heavy on ravens and tanks while melting minerals left overs on mass turets. I can't think on the top of my head atm if raven is armored or not and also if HSM can catch intestor or is infestors speed to great?
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
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First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
Not tier-based is how I'd describe the tech tree for Terran, and Protoss.
By your logic, a medivac is tier 3, the same as a raven and a battlecruiser, while a thor is t2.
The only race that has tiers is zerg, going by way of Hatchery -> Lair -> Hive, being required to open up new units and upgrades but doing nothing by themselves, on top of their building requirements. The factory and starport are unit producing buildings and nothing else.
On March 25 2011 21:54 Antisocialmunky wrote: Snipe is good but its kinda like feedback vs EMP where one player has to click on one unit and the other player could just spam click over everything else.
I guess if you're curious, you should look at Jinro's games from the beta.
Yeah except that you need to click two or three times on the unit instead of just once. Imo snipe should be changed to drain 25+X energy and deal 2*X damage for it, consuming as much energy as is needed to kill the unit. That way, sniping templars would cost 65 energy (it's 50 energy now, but 2 clicks), sniping infestors would cost 70 energy (It's 75 energy now and 3 clicks). It would also make it more viable while not overpowered against beefier units like the roach (~100 energy) or the zealot (100 energy). The maximum damage dealt (at 200 energy) would be 350 - currently it's 360 (but takes 8 clicks).
On March 25 2011 07:11 Griffith` wrote: It's not that infestors aren't counterable, its just that the only real way to counter them is to constantly spread your marines even as you are slowly pushing out. Add in ghost snipes and it's imposssible to play this MU.
People keep giving the suggestion, "oh ya just spread your marines", oh ya "you need more apm". It is FAR too apm intensive, and I played B- Terran on iCCup and micro battles weren't this bad.
It's bad enough that fungal almost 1 shots an entire marine ball, its even worse that your marines can't move while they are fungaled. I think biomech is essentially dead with this patch.
You know what's worse? Your marines is fungaled and that infestor throw an infested terran in the middle of your ball. Your tank goes boom! 10 kill - all marines.
This is extremely situational, because a number of things have to happen for this tactic to work:
1. the marines can't be tightly packed, because then you can't toss an egg into the group (not enough space, the egg will land on the outside)
2. there can no other units within tank range (IT eggs have lowest threat level)
3. if marines are too far back and/or you don't have vision, the infestor could get sniped trying to get within egg range (Infested Terran range is smaller than fungal)
4. of course if you don't have full vision to begin with, there could be other units nearby that will snipe your infestor (remember it has to go in alone due to #2)
On March 25 2011 18:56 Lurk wrote: The BL transition is always a problem, but you actually don't need that many vikings to deal with them. Remember you'll also have marines and likely a couple thors, that - while not ideal - can help the the BLs too.
you need many vikings if the Zs eco is strong. and just that they force unsiege on the tanks gives you an opening to go madcrazy with the infestors plus infestors are quite good vs vikings.
also both marines and esp thors are quite bad vs broodlords and both get stomped by the infestor support (remember NP gets used more now too with evryone using infestors).
On March 26 2011 02:06 Bleak wrote: Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech?
Mech has to weak of AA, a zerg can literally make nothing but mutas and magic box your entire army.
Im personally haveing a lot of trouble getting marine/tank to work at all, every game the Z goes infestors my marines are wiped out and my tank line is overrun easily, once they have the gas to have mutas + a few infestors to take out the marines its over.
On March 26 2011 02:06 Bleak wrote: Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech?
Mech has to weak of AA, a zerg can literally make nothing but mutas and magic box your entire army.
Im personally haveing a lot of trouble getting marine/tank to work at all, every game the Z goes infestors my marines are wiped out and my tank line is overrun easily, once they have the gas to have mutas + a few infestors to take out the marines its over.
By no means I have tested this, but what about getting like 4-5 thor/siege tank/blue helion with double armory upgrading all game? You can always build turrets as you push to protect the tanks, and since helions are so fast, you can keep poking around the expansions.
Something like 4-5 thors, 10-14 siege tanks and good amount of helions should probably deal with anything in a straight up fight except broodlords or mass mass muta. The idea should be to prevent that muta count, but how? I think this is the crucial question. Perhaps with good harrassment or a good timing where your units can deal with anything, this could be possible?
On March 26 2011 02:06 Bleak wrote: Since new fungal is so strong, what about going Mech?
Mech has to weak of AA, a zerg can literally make nothing but mutas and magic box your entire army.
Im personally haveing a lot of trouble getting marine/tank to work at all, every game the Z goes infestors my marines are wiped out and my tank line is overrun easily, once they have the gas to have mutas + a few infestors to take out the marines its over.
By no means I have tested this, but what about getting like 4-5 thor/siege tank/blue helion with double armory upgrading all game? You can always build turrets as you push to protect the tanks, and since helions are so fast, you can keep poking around the expansions.
Something like 4-5 thors, 10-14 siege tanks and good amount of helions should probably deal with anything in a straight up fight except broodlords or mass mass muta. The idea should be to prevent that muta count, but how? I think this is the crucial question. Perhaps with good harrassment or a good timing where your units can deal with anything, this could be possible?
I would imagine you would need extremely good drop harassment to keep yourself in the game if you are going mech TvZ.
My main problem with mech is you cant just move you your army to poke the zerg like marine/tank, you are to slow and its far to easy to get muta backstabbed and forcing engagements to keep the muta count low gets harder. It eventually gets to the point where Z has to many mutas for thors to handle.
I can see a turret push being a possible solution with a lot of patience, but good creep spread prevents turrets obviously, so it will get to a point where you have to scan, kill tumors, wait for creep to dissipate and build turrets, move again etc.
I have not played mech versus new infestors, but if a Z is going that path is opens up a quicker path to broodlords which is a real pain in the ass for tank/thor obviously, and +damage to armor fungal and neural would likely be a nightmare. Comparing the new fungal to storm, the Z can just fungal the mech and chip away at it like P could prepatch, which is also another roadblock.
Its really hard dealing with infestors now.... even skipping mutas rushing into infestors work extremely well.... the new fungal seems to be a bit too much for T to handle....
Theres not going to be a 1 all strategy that counters everything the zerg throws at you, you have to be flexible. If there was a one strategy that terran could employ vs zerg that pretty much steam rolls them every single time, then the match up would be broken.
Just saying because most people in this thread seem to be looking for that golden composition where they always win with...
On March 26 2011 04:01 Mylkal wrote: Theres not going to be a 1 all strategy that counters everything the zerg throws at you, you have to be flexible. If there was a one strategy that terran could employ vs zerg that pretty much steam rolls them every single time, then the match up would be broken.
Just saying because most people in this thread seem to be looking for that golden composition where they always win with...
Actually Terran requires a versatile composition that can adapt to whatever a zerg thows at you, due to how your production is structured. Any large scale tech switch is unrealistic.
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal.
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First of all, terran doesn't have any tiers. Second, they have been outteching zerg since forever in this matchup, so gtfo.
LOL sry dude, but terran HAVE tiers! barracks = 1 Factory = 2 starport = 3 or how else you would describe the techtree for terran?
Not tier-based is how I'd describe the tech tree for Terran, and Protoss.
By your logic, a medivac is tier 3, the same as a raven and a battlecruiser, while a thor is t2.
The only race that has tiers is zerg, going by way of Hatchery -> Lair -> Hive, being required to open up new units and upgrades but doing nothing by themselves, on top of their building requirements. The factory and starport are unit producing buildings and nothing else.
that's only if you don't have any common sense.
you need a factory to get armoury. so thor is tier 3 as you need 1 more 'costly' (150/100) building after the tier 2 factory.
ghost is tier 2 because you need ghost academy (150/50) which comes after tier 1 rax. etc. make sense?
zerg tier tree is simplified into lair/hive, but in terms of money spent to tech the tiers are about the same race to race. this is due to terran/protoss being forced to make multiple production buildings.
Wouldn't it be funny if Terran skipped tanks, went for ghosts and mass nukes? That would amuse me greatly. I don't think anyone ever managed to get marine/medivac/ghost to the stage where nukes got thrown out but might be something to experiment with especially for monday. :p
at the current state of the infestor, why even bother making banelings, just double cast and kill huge bioballs in seconds. I believe this will bring out better play from Terrans who are used to 3 rax all ins 3 rax/expo into more rax, into expo into more rax. Against infestors that method will be hugely cost ineffective. Terran will need to start incoporating all its units, including ghosts and BCs.
On March 26 2011 06:55 Ponyo wrote: at the current state of the infestor, why even bother making banelings, just double cast and kill huge bioballs in seconds. I believe this will bring out better play from Terrans who are used to 3 rax all ins 3 rax/expo into more rax, into expo into more rax. Against infestors that method will be hugely cost ineffective. Terran will need to start incoporating all its units, including ghosts and BCs.
Happy hunting 1.3!
Cause nothing is more demoralizing than seeing 70 banes run through your entire bioball + tanks + into your base?
I strongly suggest most, if not all participants in this thread reread the Starcraft 2 Strategy Forum Posting Guidelines at the top of the forum. Any further violations of said thread here and by these users elsewhere will result in moderation.
I was used to main Zerg a couple months ago, recently I have been playing terran and today I just switched back
I have to say a ling/infestor combo is really, really effective, all the gas going to all those fungals is extremely potent. I think the best combo for Terran is the regular marine/tank/medivac but with a few ghosts, maybe even think about getting the +25 energy upgrade for them so that you can EMP a couple times from each ghost (considering travel time, you might get about 125 energy which is close to a 2nd EMP). Leap frogging siege tanks are really important, send a stimmed marine a head of the pack to locate the zerg army or scan and siege your tanks appropriately.
Another unit comp I've been thinking of is BF hellions, marauders, siege tanks and thors, basically a mech build but utilizes marauders to deal with roaches however the gas requirements for that are pretty high, you'd have to somehow take a lot of bases which isn't easy. The whole premise of an infestor build is that you are relying on zerglings, so a BF hellion opening could be pretty potent and just transition normally into the marine/tank/medivac with ghosts once you know they are getting infestors.
On March 28 2011 18:11 emc wrote:Another unit comp I've been thinking of is BF hellions, marauders, siege tanks and thors, basically a mech build but utilizes marauders to deal with roaches however the gas requirements for that are pretty high, you'd have to somehow take a lot of bases which isn't easy. The whole premise of an infestor build is that you are relying on zerglings, so a BF hellion opening could be pretty potent and just transition normally into the marine/tank/medivac with ghosts once you know they are getting infestors.
I usually get a lot of BF hellions against zerg and i can tell you that they are not the answer to ling/infestor. The nature of hellions makes them require hit and run micro to be really effective. Once surrounded, they die quite easily to lings. One good fungal on your hellion pack is all it takes for the lings to charge in and get a surround.
I will still build them as there is not really an alternative, but i just wanted to point out that they are not as deadly to ling/infestor as one might think. They still need marine/tank support to be really effective.
you need a factory to get armoury. so thor is tier 3 as you need 1 more 'costly' (150/100) building after the tier 2 factory.
ghost is tier 2 because you need ghost academy (150/50) which comes after tier 1 rax. etc. make sense?
zerg tier tree is simplified into lair/hive, but in terms of money spent to tech the tiers are about the same race to race. this is due to terran/protoss being forced to make multiple production buildings.[/QUOTE]
the reason why I would put air at tier 2 is because of it's timing and tech path. You get air reliably at mid game, you get thors a little later but you need the armory for upgrades anyways so it is relatively easy tech. Battlecruiser is really the only unit that T has to go out of their way for and it is almost strictly a late game tech.
Why don't you go and make a "Tiers - a useful description for sc2 units ?" thread and keep the discussion out of here ? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I sympathize with the terrans who are having trouble now after the patch... i don't think what the tvz/zvt matchup needed was a more powerful spellcaster for zerg, and a huge nerf of stem timing pushes for terran. I do appreciate and agree with the bunker rush nerf, although I would have liked to see some other solution that made it yet more impractical. Stem timing pushes though were a fun and dynamic part of the matchup, that gave terran the equivalent of a banneling bust in the early game. Maybe blizzard reasoned that stem pushes were to affective without being all in, I don't know. I can tell you this, the buff to battlecruiser speed doesn't have me stressed much on the ladder.
From my experience on the ladder with infestors, they aren't a miracle unit by any means. I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part). Heavy mech is still an option, and a more robust style of bio/thor/tank can be utilized to great effect with strong positioning and good timings. It will be interesting to see how the metagame shifts. So far we haven't seen anything noteworthy on the pro level with the new infestors, but I am sure that will change soon.
On March 28 2011 18:42 mothergoose729 wrote: I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part).
What coffin? Watch Kas-Haypro. The style is very much alive and kicking. I dont see why it would get countered by infestors when tanks basicly do the same thing and have better range while infestors have better mobility. Anyway I welcome all the changes in this patch. TvZ is one step closer to being balanced.
On March 28 2011 18:42 mothergoose729 wrote: I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part).
Anyway I welcome all the changes in this patch. TvZ is one step closer to being balanced.
this is strongly disagree with.
tvz was pretty much the most balanced matchup on most maps in the last few months. atleast i felt that way both from watching tournaments and personal expririence as someone who plays both Z&T at ~3,5k level.
the stim change was plain unneeded in tvz. stimpushes are all easy to hold in many different ways if you are somewhat prepared. and the new fungal changes so much of the dynamics and is borderline OP in some situations.
be it the insane dps in fights you cannot mitigate/micro against at all, that you never can move any units more then 5 range away from tanks or risk losing evrything to 2 infestors,the huge dmg to vikings and more.
i just dont think that a easy to land spell should be instant doom for evrything thats caught even slightly out of position. it punishes tiny "mistakes" (quotes cause often there isnt much to avoid it) way too hard with no way to recover.
that NP is also on the infestor makes it only more onesided in some situations. i made a friend ragequit (including exiting sc2) by killing small parts over and over again just by parasiting the 1-2 outlying tanks at the front and fungaling evrything that dared to get into range . and i dont blame him, its super frustrating as T since you the best you can do is hope Z missmicroes or heavily sacrifice tank count for ghosts and somehow get many clutch emps off.
really hope the discussion kicks off here instead of pointless stupid "tier x ! no its tier y!" bla. cause tbh against a somewhat well executed infestor play i just dont know what to do at this point other then going for weird allins before infestors kick in. and evry zvt loss since 1.3 was either to fast 1 or 2 bases pushes or i made big mistakes with my micro/multitasking , so i cant really pull anything out of my zvt games either yet :/
only good thing is that most people are terrible at using infestors atm and many still dont use em ~
so far all i did to adapt is heavily increase my tank count and be way way more slow when pushing once infestors are out. also i heavily cut down on the "send small group here and here and with this one i bait into tanks" plays since if a infestor is somewhere around they are just free donations. problem is that this gives Z alot of time to prepare for the attack which esp on the bigger maps destroys lots of timings i aimed for.
I think this matchup is pretty interesting now due to a number of reasons.
1. Slightly larger maps with some easier 3rds: I'm sure there's nary a zerg who has Tal'Darim thumbed down as well as Typhon Peaks, Backwater Gulch is sort of a weird one but with basically all expansions other than the gold being so narrow it's all ripe for fungal growth usage.
2. I'm still baffled by seeing posts that question whether or not the infestor change was a buff or not. This is pure nonsense. This infestor change affects the matchup in more ways than one:
-Griffith pointed out the first that drops are much harder to execute, infestors are the fastest caster in the game even off creep. I think this fixed a problem in which a lot of zerg had issues because their tech would be wiped with a well placed drop.
-Creep Spread takes an even more important role. Creep spread has always been more important, but now creep+knowledge of infestors in TvZ acts in the same way that sentry in TvP works, you have to be careful not to be caught. I don't think Zerg's understand how unsettling it is to walk across creep without detection, you are either now forcing me to get a raven. A raven of course, unless en masse with seeker missle, is now just a really expensive and slow to build detector. Either that or a blow a scan, which of course is also a sacrifice.
-The Armor Ignore and Medivac issues, again as griffith pointed out upgrading is a huge point in TvZ and all of a sudden now there's an ability which can potentially ignore 500/500+ worth of an upgrade. Additionally, to some degree, getting medics could pose sort of a quandary as if you know infestors are out, there's almost no point in medivacs. Not only is the damage too fast to heal through, even if you manage to survive (somehow) your medics will be completely out of energy for the next engagement (when of course the infestors will also have energy back). Even worse, if you DO survive your units will almost be non-factor in the next fight before dying. One thing about psi storm is that even if you get hit you can do something about it trying to move out. This isn't the case for the infestor, if you're hit, you're done.
I disagree with one of Griffith's point about rushing infestors, I've always always always been a huge proponent of the following idea:
Zerg is an advanced race that isn't for everyone. They have a lot of tricks, but yet for some reason (this is pre-patch of course) no one uses them, they simply would mutaling themselves in the foot, a high risk but high reward strategy. Unfortunately I think a lot of this has been perpetuated by high level players, with which I respectfully credit their performances, but really question their ability to harness the power of zerg.
That said, zerg imo, instead of spending their gas teching to mutas and researching +1 flyer because some pro does it, rush infestors and spend your gas on upgrades on banelings. At the very least have a map pool where you know you can pull this off. The best part is that fungal is so cost effective that it can save you from having to overbuild banelings.
I don't think we're going to see a lot of high level infestor usage yet because all the major events have started around patch time, maybe by next GSL or later TSL rounds (lets be honest who cares about any other tournaments!) we'll see this being used.
It's obvious why the HP change was reverted for the infestor, I think blizzard is aware that they may have overtuned the infestor just to get people to use them. I can see the snare being removed altogether in time.
Actually i think no one does exactly know what the thoughts are in Blizz head, but these thoughts are pretty wrong. FG, in my opinion, is the most stupid idea ever implemented in SC, why? Because whatever skill, APM, micro you have you can never avoid it. You can always leave from psi-storm, can always run away from seeker missile, but FG... With such a devastating range it's really headache for any army. Additionally we have now ghost EMP nerf... I still remember the times of SC1 when battles were all around strategy and tactics. And where casters could make amazing things, but were never a core game-play unit. At modern SC2 one FG can actually cost you whole game when executed properly... I think it's not the way starcraft should be. Having removed Protoss KAmulet Blizz made HTemplars just as they should be - damn good support unit. What did they think about infestors?... God knows. I do really hope this unit will be rewrited in next patch/patches. A good idea would be: FG just decreases affected units speed by 50% and not fully immobilizes it. Range should be decreased from 9 to 7. Duration increased as it were before 1.3.
If blizz think that zerg is the really weak race i can accord with that. But i can never accord with the way they try to bring zerg to life. It's just ridiculous.
Ofc you can avoid fungal growths. You do this by having marines in small pairs, or single file. Granted, you may lose a big ball the 1st time he shows an infestor, but after that any big clump of marines that gets fungald is your fault. 3800 master zerg here and yes fungal is very very good. The terrans can no longer poke with a good # of marines infront of tanks. The way to beat infestor play with marine tank is by having marines single file, or in very small pairs ( not worth fungaling ) - bunkers in the middle of the map - expanding. Infestors are very good defensive units. I for one am glad that terran now has too play position games against the zerg, as the zerg has too with tanks. It certainly spices up the mid-game. Also, a very conservative blue flames is not a bad choice. If you have about 6-8 sitting in the back of your army, when the zerg engages the helions will roast sooooooooooooo many zerglings. Some would argue that just more tanks wud be better, but meh. I personally just use burrowed infestors against tanks, throwing infested terran bombs on tanks (lol @ tanks 1 shotting eachother)
On March 29 2011 00:43 b0urne420 wrote: stop bringing up "tiers" into the argument. they dont mean anything.
how boring and linear would the game be if all higher tier units > lower tier? it would just be a race for the highest tier every game....
Tbh it is pretty stupid when 12 marines kill a carrier. ZvT is fine except when it is early game. But being able to defend early pushes as zerg is just a case of scouting so in general the matchup is fine.
Things have been harder for terrans in TvZ in patch 1.3 but the balance issue isn't that bad. Terran always did have a slight advantage against Z especially in close positions. If anything the game got more fair for all races more than ever. We terrans shouldn't really be complaining about the infestor being buffed, I'm sure they are gonna get nerfed if the win rate for Z against T is overwhelming. I mean look at the crap zerg had to go through, 5 rax reapers, barracks before supply, etc. I'm just a guy that doesn't really whine about anything at all so that may be why i don't see a problem with infestors. TBH i didn't even think kaydarin amulet removal was even necessary, i didn't think it was IMBA. I don't even mind people who cheese either, if you don't scout it and don't respond properly not just to cheese but anything, you plain str8 up got outplayed. As for me going mech always work for me as my win rate is well above 75% doing so. I just got to make sure i have the map control over zerg with blue flame hellions and hit their base before their greater spire. As for the neural parasite on the mech units..... -___-, that's what hellions are for to scout ahead and if anythign u can probably catch the infestors and snipe it. Yes i know, they can be fungaled but then that's GOOD. Makes them use up their energy anways. Besides attempting to neural parasite when most of ur army consist of tanks seems pretty damn hard, i never had anyone even get the chance to even pull it off on me. I do 2-3 base mech, use the mobility of hellions when pushing with ur mech army. Use your tanks and thors to go for their main structures while splitting hellions to expansions and killing workers. It works for me it can work for you.
On March 29 2011 09:32 Jimbo77 wrote: Actually i think no one does exactly know what the thoughts are in Blizz head, but these thoughts are pretty wrong. FG, in my opinion, is the most stupid idea ever implemented in SC, why? Because whatever skill, APM, micro you have you can never avoid it. You can always leave from psi-storm, can always run away from seeker missile, but FG... With such a devastating range it's really headache for any army. Additionally we have now ghost EMP nerf... I still remember the times of SC1 when battles were all around strategy and tactics. And where casters could make amazing things, but were never a core game-play unit. At modern SC2 one FG can actually cost you whole game when executed properly... I think it's not the way starcraft should be. Having removed Protoss KAmulet Blizz made HTemplars just as they should be - damn good support unit. What did they think about infestors?... God knows. I do really hope this unit will be rewrited in next patch/patches. A good idea would be: FG just decreases affected units speed by 50% and not fully immobilizes it. Range should be decreased from 9 to 7. Duration increased as it were before 1.3.
If blizz think that zerg is the really weak race i can accord with that. But i can never accord with the way they try to bring zerg to life. It's just ridiculous.
Splitting marines counters Fungal just like it counters blings, it is harder because you have to split prior to the engagement, but yes fungal is not what you are making it out to be. This creates more dynamic play and skill just like in BW so you are wrong on that factor too. Its very exciting for someone to use a splitting tactic to avoid a deadly FG.
EPT
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