EPTFrom my experience on the ladder with infestors, they aren't a miracle unit by any means. I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part). Heavy mech is still an option, and a more robust style of bio/thor/tank can be utilized to great effect with strong positioning and good timings. It will be interesting to see how the metagame shifts. So far we haven't seen anything noteworthy on the pro level with the new infestors, but I am sure that will change soon.
[D] TvZ 1.3 - Page 13
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
From my experience on the ladder with infestors, they aren't a miracle unit by any means. I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part). Heavy mech is still an option, and a more robust style of bio/thor/tank can be utilized to great effect with strong positioning and good timings. It will be interesting to see how the metagame shifts. So far we haven't seen anything noteworthy on the pro level with the new infestors, but I am sure that will change soon. | ||
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QualityTV
Denmark27 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:42 mothergoose729 wrote: I think it is one more nail in the coffin for marine/tank style play (IMO, that shit doesn't seem to be working anymore with bigger maps and better metagame on zergs part). What coffin? Watch Kas-Haypro. The style is very much alive and kicking. I dont see why it would get countered by infestors when tanks basicly do the same thing and have better range while infestors have better mobility. Anyway I welcome all the changes in this patch. TvZ is one step closer to being balanced. | ||
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Shrewmy
Australia199 Posts
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Trakky
95 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 28 2011 19:27 Cheerio wrote: Anyway I welcome all the changes in this patch. TvZ is one step closer to being balanced. this is strongly disagree with. tvz was pretty much the most balanced matchup on most maps in the last few months. atleast i felt that way both from watching tournaments and personal expririence as someone who plays both Z&T at ~3,5k level. the stim change was plain unneeded in tvz. stimpushes are all easy to hold in many different ways if you are somewhat prepared. and the new fungal changes so much of the dynamics and is borderline OP in some situations. be it the insane dps in fights you cannot mitigate/micro against at all, that you never can move any units more then 5 range away from tanks or risk losing evrything to 2 infestors,the huge dmg to vikings and more. i just dont think that a easy to land spell should be instant doom for evrything thats caught even slightly out of position. it punishes tiny "mistakes" (quotes cause often there isnt much to avoid it) way too hard with no way to recover. that NP is also on the infestor makes it only more onesided in some situations. i made a friend ragequit (including exiting sc2) by killing small parts over and over again just by parasiting the 1-2 outlying tanks at the front and fungaling evrything that dared to get into range . and i dont blame him, its super frustrating as T since you the best you can do is hope Z missmicroes or heavily sacrifice tank count for ghosts and somehow get many clutch emps off. really hope the discussion kicks off here instead of pointless stupid "tier x ! no its tier y!" bla. cause tbh against a somewhat well executed infestor play i just dont know what to do at this point other then going for weird allins before infestors kick in. and evry zvt loss since 1.3 was either to fast 1 or 2 bases pushes or i made big mistakes with my micro/multitasking , so i cant really pull anything out of my zvt games either yet :/ only good thing is that most people are terrible at using infestors atm and many still dont use em ~ so far all i did to adapt is heavily increase my tank count and be way way more slow when pushing once infestors are out. also i heavily cut down on the "send small group here and here and with this one i bait into tanks" plays since if a infestor is somewhere around they are just free donations. problem is that this gives Z alot of time to prepare for the attack which esp on the bigger maps destroys lots of timings i aimed for. | ||
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b0urne420
Canada112 Posts
how boring and linear would the game be if all higher tier units > lower tier? it would just be a race for the highest tier every game.... | ||
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
1. Slightly larger maps with some easier 3rds: I'm sure there's nary a zerg who has Tal'Darim thumbed down as well as Typhon Peaks, Backwater Gulch is sort of a weird one but with basically all expansions other than the gold being so narrow it's all ripe for fungal growth usage. 2. I'm still baffled by seeing posts that question whether or not the infestor change was a buff or not. This is pure nonsense. This infestor change affects the matchup in more ways than one: -Griffith pointed out the first that drops are much harder to execute, infestors are the fastest caster in the game even off creep. I think this fixed a problem in which a lot of zerg had issues because their tech would be wiped with a well placed drop. -Creep Spread takes an even more important role. Creep spread has always been more important, but now creep+knowledge of infestors in TvZ acts in the same way that sentry in TvP works, you have to be careful not to be caught. I don't think Zerg's understand how unsettling it is to walk across creep without detection, you are either now forcing me to get a raven. A raven of course, unless en masse with seeker missle, is now just a really expensive and slow to build detector. Either that or a blow a scan, which of course is also a sacrifice. -The Armor Ignore and Medivac issues, again as griffith pointed out upgrading is a huge point in TvZ and all of a sudden now there's an ability which can potentially ignore 500/500+ worth of an upgrade. Additionally, to some degree, getting medics could pose sort of a quandary as if you know infestors are out, there's almost no point in medivacs. Not only is the damage too fast to heal through, even if you manage to survive (somehow) your medics will be completely out of energy for the next engagement (when of course the infestors will also have energy back). Even worse, if you DO survive your units will almost be non-factor in the next fight before dying. One thing about psi storm is that even if you get hit you can do something about it trying to move out. This isn't the case for the infestor, if you're hit, you're done. I disagree with one of Griffith's point about rushing infestors, I've always always always been a huge proponent of the following idea: Zerg is an advanced race that isn't for everyone. They have a lot of tricks, but yet for some reason (this is pre-patch of course) no one uses them, they simply would mutaling themselves in the foot, a high risk but high reward strategy. Unfortunately I think a lot of this has been perpetuated by high level players, with which I respectfully credit their performances, but really question their ability to harness the power of zerg. That said, zerg imo, instead of spending their gas teching to mutas and researching +1 flyer because some pro does it, rush infestors and spend your gas on upgrades on banelings. At the very least have a map pool where you know you can pull this off. The best part is that fungal is so cost effective that it can save you from having to overbuild banelings. I don't think we're going to see a lot of high level infestor usage yet because all the major events have started around patch time, maybe by next GSL or later TSL rounds (lets be honest who cares about any other tournaments!) we'll see this being used. It's obvious why the HP change was reverted for the infestor, I think blizzard is aware that they may have overtuned the infestor just to get people to use them. I can see the snare being removed altogether in time. | ||
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Jimbo77
139 Posts
FG, in my opinion, is the most stupid idea ever implemented in SC, why? Because whatever skill, APM, micro you have you can never avoid it. You can always leave from psi-storm, can always run away from seeker missile, but FG... With such a devastating range it's really headache for any army. Additionally we have now ghost EMP nerf... I still remember the times of SC1 when battles were all around strategy and tactics. And where casters could make amazing things, but were never a core game-play unit. At modern SC2 one FG can actually cost you whole game when executed properly... I think it's not the way starcraft should be. Having removed Protoss KAmulet Blizz made HTemplars just as they should be - damn good support unit. What did they think about infestors?... God knows. I do really hope this unit will be rewrited in next patch/patches. A good idea would be: FG just decreases affected units speed by 50% and not fully immobilizes it. Range should be decreased from 9 to 7. Duration increased as it were before 1.3. If blizz think that zerg is the really weak race i can accord with that. But i can never accord with the way they try to bring zerg to life. It's just ridiculous. | ||
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iDrone
United States176 Posts
3800 master zerg here and yes fungal is very very good. The terrans can no longer poke with a good # of marines infront of tanks. The way to beat infestor play with marine tank is by having marines single file, or in very small pairs ( not worth fungaling ) - bunkers in the middle of the map - expanding. Infestors are very good defensive units. I for one am glad that terran now has too play position games against the zerg, as the zerg has too with tanks. It certainly spices up the mid-game. Also, a very conservative blue flames is not a bad choice. If you have about 6-8 sitting in the back of your army, when the zerg engages the helions will roast sooooooooooooo many zerglings. Some would argue that just more tanks wud be better, but meh. I personally just use burrowed infestors against tanks, throwing infested terran bombs on tanks (lol @ tanks 1 shotting eachother) | ||
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Dismantlethethroat
114 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:43 b0urne420 wrote: stop bringing up "tiers" into the argument. they dont mean anything. how boring and linear would the game be if all higher tier units > lower tier? it would just be a race for the highest tier every game.... Tbh it is pretty stupid when 12 marines kill a carrier. ZvT is fine except when it is early game. But being able to defend early pushes as zerg is just a case of scouting so in general the matchup is fine. | ||
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ThyWillBeDun
United States7 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On March 29 2011 09:32 Jimbo77 wrote: Actually i think no one does exactly know what the thoughts are in Blizz head, but these thoughts are pretty wrong. FG, in my opinion, is the most stupid idea ever implemented in SC, why? Because whatever skill, APM, micro you have you can never avoid it. You can always leave from psi-storm, can always run away from seeker missile, but FG... With such a devastating range it's really headache for any army. Additionally we have now ghost EMP nerf... I still remember the times of SC1 when battles were all around strategy and tactics. And where casters could make amazing things, but were never a core game-play unit. At modern SC2 one FG can actually cost you whole game when executed properly... I think it's not the way starcraft should be. Having removed Protoss KAmulet Blizz made HTemplars just as they should be - damn good support unit. What did they think about infestors?... God knows. I do really hope this unit will be rewrited in next patch/patches. A good idea would be: FG just decreases affected units speed by 50% and not fully immobilizes it. Range should be decreased from 9 to 7. Duration increased as it were before 1.3. If blizz think that zerg is the really weak race i can accord with that. But i can never accord with the way they try to bring zerg to life. It's just ridiculous. Splitting marines counters Fungal just like it counters blings, it is harder because you have to split prior to the engagement, but yes fungal is not what you are making it out to be. This creates more dynamic play and skill just like in BW so you are wrong on that factor too. Its very exciting for someone to use a splitting tactic to avoid a deadly FG. | ||
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