EPTI think the main thing people are forgetting is the patch has been out for 1 day. 1 day are you're all QQing? I doubt most people here have actually played more than 5 TvZs since the patch came out and all the people complaining about how ghosts wont work probably haven't even casted an emp on an infestor yet.How about give it some time, actually play some games, adjust your play accordingly, watch how high level players are handling it, and then make assertions that are based off experience instead of knee-jerk reactions. Maybe the infestor might actually turn out to be balanced, you know kinda like how reapers were. ^^
[D] TvZ 1.3 - Page 6
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
I think the main thing people are forgetting is the patch has been out for 1 day. 1 day are you're all QQing? I doubt most people here have actually played more than 5 TvZs since the patch came out and all the people complaining about how ghosts wont work probably haven't even casted an emp on an infestor yet.How about give it some time, actually play some games, adjust your play accordingly, watch how high level players are handling it, and then make assertions that are based off experience instead of knee-jerk reactions. Maybe the infestor might actually turn out to be balanced, you know kinda like how reapers were. ^^ | ||
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Tumor
Austria192 Posts
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On March 24 2011 07:15 SecretA5DC wrote: Did you even read the guy's post? It was just personal attacks and trolling. Okay, sorry. Yet I don't see where I am trolling or where I am attacking Griffith. It's only the first line that is about him, where he says someone is an idiot. Am I the one doing the personal attacks? [Edit] Okay, misunderstood what you meant. Still don't see the personal attacks in the post that griffith quoted. I do see the trolling, though. On March 24 2011 06:58 statikg wrote: What you have done mostly here is to create a fallacy called a straw man, you incorrectly represented my position and then shot it down. Also some personal attacks thrown in. Your points about the raven are valid, they do have some relevant uses. However as I very rarely run into burrowed banelings for some reason (I think most zerg playing ling/bling muta dont get burrow), I find that scanning occasionally to kill creep is worth it because of how constantly gas strapped I am fighting zerg. 200 gas is alot for creep killing... against mutas I generally think the game is decided once the banelings are dead or the marines are dead, its rarely a close fight between mutas and marines that a PDD is going to matter in. Your other points are poor however. You act like just because its possible for a strat to work, then there cannot be a problem with imbalance. The point is, beforehand the strategy worked with equal chances of winning and losing in fact it was so equal that the results would tip largely based on spawn distance, now because terran has less room for error, the chances of losing has increased, thus imbalance. I also didnt make it seem like cross positions was an auto loss at all. I simply pointed out that on cross positions zerg have an advantage (claim backed by tons of common TvZ stats showing that zerg win more then 50% in xpos and less then 50% in close. Then I drew a conclusion that based on this data larger maps will result in more zerg victories, which I have already experienced on the ladder (I have done quite well against zerg lately actually but my results are significantly lower on the new maps esp in xpos when running the same strategy on both maps, (which is not a 1 base all in). Perhaps I misunderstood you then. About the cross positions, you said it was bullshit. That, to me, implies that it's heavily favored for zerg, I don't agree. About the imbalance of which you are talking. I just don't see it. Where is it? Just because you have to be more careful now does not mean it's imbalanced, it might very well mean it was imbalanced pre-patch. Never said that the PDD would do much (I even said it would not but that it at least was SOMETHING in the battles for it to do). I am sorry if I offended you somehow but none of what I wrote was meant as a personal attack, just my frustration at my fellow terrans crying "IMBALANCE!" day 1. And since you are the one bringing winning percentages up, what was your percentage pre-patch and what is it now? Also, how many TvZs have you played post-patch? Even further, could you provide a source for all these stats showing the higher winning percentage for zergs on cross positions? P.S. It is too damn early to start crying about imbalance. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
All this was pre patch testings with a master league zerg who rushed infestors | ||
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Danners933
Canada76 Posts
Sucks how people are QQing already because Infestors just turned into sentrys for zergy. Terran, you gotta emp HTs and Sentrys, gotta do that for the infestor now too. Protoss, with the nerf of the K. Amulet feedback may be your new friend for infestors cause you know us zergys will want to leave our infestors fully charged. If zerg will be relying on infestors more you can change the tide of battle with feedbacks, and of course Forcefields. Sure it gives every player the worrying feeling like when they see a lot of HT's Sentrys and Ghosts, but with experience players will learn how to deal with it. Don't call imba yet, get some practice with the scenario. | ||
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-BuNnY
Canada4 Posts
infestors overall are pretty much a massive investment of gas with it being 100/150 the same goes with mutas. (100/100) so if there's less mutas out on the map, then that means the zerg has less options for harassment on the terran mid-late game. this means the terran has more time to do what it does best and macro up a large army without that massive ball of 20+ mutas that goes around sniping undefended buildings/etc. fungal growth also relies on energy, and energy from infestors runs out pretty fast after 2 fungals and it doesn't come back for a bit. so if a terran adapts by spreading out their marines put using smaller groups of marines to poke, infestor energy quickly runs out. if the zerg makes too many infestors, he'll be gas starved and unable to make mutas and/or banelings. another point is that infestors are alot slower than the rest of the zling/bling/muta composition, making it a bad option to bring with you on an attack for risk of it being sniped during a possible retreat, and once again infestors aren't cheap at all all in all, its only been 1 day since the patch came out, i think its too early to be calling any race "imba". i'm sure terrans can stay with their unit comp (rine/tank) but will have to put more emphasis on different ways of doing their attacks/etc. its a matter of time before Ts figure out how to play the matchup again after this patch | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On March 24 2011 08:42 -BuNnY wrote: my personal opinion: (as a zerg) infestors overall are pretty much a massive investment of gas with it being 100/150 the same goes with mutas. (100/100) so if there's less mutas out on the map, then that means the zerg has less options for harassment on the terran mid-late game. this means the terran has more time to do what it does best and macro up a large army without that massive ball of 20+ mutas that goes around sniping undefended buildings/etc. Can't that gas come from your baneling count, instead? What purpose do banes now have? | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On March 24 2011 11:59 1Eris1 wrote: You do realize this patch actually made infestors worse against drop play? The 4 second hold is no longer enough to get out infested terran to kill the drop, so you have to spend a lot more energy on a single drop. Not to mention, if he's going infestors, he won't have mutas. Meaning, you will get harassed a lot less and you can macro harder. You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped . | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On March 24 2011 12:03 Griffith` wrote: You dont use FG on the drop ship, you use it on the 8 marines that get dropped . Okay? This still makes it easier for him to pick up and leave, because 4 seconds is not a long time. | ||
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heaven-
United States361 Posts
On March 23 2011 17:10 HitStarcraft wrote: You do realize you're are *itching about how your teir one units are being killed by teir 1.5 and teir 2 units in your 1st two points. Its really sad. And You do know you have other useless units besides the marines and medivacs at your disposal. User was warned for this post Fixed | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
 I haven't tried BC's yet, but I imagine they're still essentially worthless considering the transition to corrupters isn't particularly difficult. | ||
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Hoban
United States1600 Posts
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On March 23 2011 20:47 Markwerf wrote: Why for god's sake do people keep bringing up the stupid 'tiers' all the time when one unit combination supposedly loses to another. First of all the entire use of tiers is a bit silly in starcraft 2. Terran 'tiers' are completely not comparible with Zerg 'tiers' at all. In a way you could call stim + shield marines a higher tier then hellions as it actually takes more upgrades... Also sc2 isn't based on the idea that higher tier units are automatically better, this may be the case in other RTSes like Red Alert or whatever but is actually a crappy mechanism. The diversity of sc2 and sc:bw is based alot on the fact that you still need to make tier 1 units in the lategame, rushing to high tier units only which replace lower tier units leads to boring gameplay. Stating that higher tier units SHOULD beat lower tier numbers is just incredibly stupid, often it is true but there are tons of cases where it isn't. In TvZ marines are just a must build unit because of mutalisks. Sure thors counter mutalisks as well but don't have the mobility to compete on most maps, 'tier 1' units are just essential in this matchup and in fact every matchup... So true. | ||
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Allenssmart
19 Posts
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OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss. wait... you're complaining about nerfs and switching to protoss? What race do you think was most nerfed since patch 1 of the beta? I really like the infestor now. With the increased damage to fungal it's a lot easier to hold off pushes from terrans and it's even encouraged me to use neural parasite more too. When I random terran I try to snipe infestors with blue flame hellions, but that doesn't work as well as ghosts. I find snipe very underused when terrans play zergs | ||
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Cops
United Kingdom172 Posts
On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss. This post pleases me to no end. A terran complaining is like music to my ears. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
You have to be very very careful now vs infestor play now however. Splitting marines vs fungal is much harder than splittling vs blings. Leap frogging is mandatory now vs a Z that goes infestor. | ||
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Hoban
United States1600 Posts
Cops United Kingdom. March 24 2011 13:16. Posts 49 PM Profile Quote # On March 24 2011 13:01 Allenssmart wrote: I agree 100%. Since the patch, I've lost 9 TvZ's and won once. Fungal for 4 seconds is way more than long enough for banes too hit, and now double fungal and medivacs can't outheal marines anymore. Also, with the ghost nerf, infestors sitting with 175+ can still fungal. I'm tired of terran nerf after terran nerf. I am legit switching to protoss. This post pleases me to no end. A terran complaining is like music to my ears. + Show Spoiler + On March 24 2011 07:15 SubtleArt wrote: Lol @ Terrans complaining... Zergs have had to deal with bullshit for months so suck it up and learn how to play? Sorry we finally have a unit that can be considered a counter to something -_-. I think the main thing people are forgetting is the patch has been out for 1 day. 1 day are you're all QQing? I doubt most people here have actually played more than 5 TvZs since the patch came out and all the people complaining about how ghosts wont work probably haven't even casted an emp on an infestor yet.How about give it some time, actually play some games, adjust your play accordingly, watch how high level players are handling it, and then make assertions that are based off experience instead of knee-jerk reactions. Maybe the infestor might actually turn out to be balanced, you know kinda like how reapers were. ^^ You guys do know this is a strategy thread? Please try to add to the discussion or rub your hands manically and cry out in joy on your own time. Sorry for rant. One very current trend I have seen is the July style zerg play that heavily punishes a macro walled-in terran. I haven't done too much looking into pro replays yet to see timings, drone counts, ect but I would like to find a few ways to push back before the bust pushes down your front door. In Morrow vs Jinro in TSL Morrow executes baneling busts very well. The only real ways I can think to counter this is to scout better and reinforce your wall. I don't really like that solution of "Just scout better" because that can be very hard. Problem is, the only thing I can think of is just hide 2-3 SCV's outside your base and use them to, one at a time, poke around in front or near your choke so you can get a judge on the size of the zerg army. Currently, I think these fast-tech and very macro-focused builds need to sacrifice maybe a couple SCVs or a handful of marines just to make sure they don't get mauled. Anyone have any ideas how to approach that bust timing window (i.e. before you have tech or have spent most of your money on economy) in a safer fashion? | ||
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PieGuY
United States14 Posts
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