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Pro]ChoSen-
United States318 Posts
"But tanks are good" ya... but they cant move so while you are trying to move out they just counter you with 30 mutas and rape everything (attachments / SCVs) and then still get their Mutas back in time to participate in the fight. I gave up getting Marines cuz its a waste of time, I've started playing around with playing mech and its working out pretty well. | ||
Lurk
Germany359 Posts
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Pro]ChoSen-
United States318 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ? I go Hellion/Thor/Viking with very slight barrack support and I have much much more success doing that than trying to have Boxer micro vs 75 banelings with Marines/Tanks. I open with a 2 rax rush tho usually to slow them down, you can't just sit back and let them get 80 drones then you will definitely lose. 2 rax pressure into mech, it's not flawless but its the only way I can beat Zerg occasionally instead of going 0-100 on ladder vs Master League zergs with bio/tank. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On March 24 2011 03:55 SecretA5DC wrote: Yes let's give Terrans flying supply depots that can transform into advanced supply depots that can create shapeshifting mini supply depots. Don't forget about an invisible structure that self replicates to give constant vision of half the map, improving the mobility of all our ground units while costing no resources. On March 24 2011 05:29 Pro]ChoSen- wrote: I go Hellion/Thor/Viking with very slight barrack support and I have much much more success doing that than trying to have Boxer micro vs 75 banelings with Marines/Tanks. I open with a 2 rax rush tho usually to slow them down, you can't just sit back and let them get 80 drones then you will definitely lose. 2 rax pressure into mech, it's not flawless but its the only way I can beat Zerg occasionally instead of going 0-100 on ladder vs Master League zergs with bio/tank. I'm basically in the same place as you. Was really frustrated in tvz when z can just suicide an entire army and before I even rebuilt half of mine they already have all their units back and I'm no longer able to defend any other expansions. Mech is really the only way to go as long as you can expand towards your opponent. And if you can't take an expansion towards your opponent then its such an investment to be able to defend an expansion, 550/150 for PF + 300 for turrets at a minimum, which for only a few more minerals and gas can be taken out by 19 banelings, plus you lose all your workers/refineries. | ||
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:00 Griffith` wrote: Can we ban this idiot? I've tried ghosts some more this morning - no luck, far too situational. The problem is that you need TWO emps to nullify an infestor that's been saving up energy. Wow, just because he disagrees with "the one and only Griffith" he should get a ban? Really? I don't see the problem with infestors, this isn't something new. The only new thing is that you actually receive a punishment for being stupid enough having your marines up front. Get some more tanks, seriously. If he's getting that many infestors he won't have many mutas and so you don't need as many marines and they don't need to cover as big of an area. Spread out your tanks and spread the marines in between. Slow push with tanks in front NOT the marines. You don't need ghosts and if you get ghosts, learn to use snipe instead of EMP. But yeah, it must be tough to actually have to think about how you engage the zerg now. And yes, I am a terran player. P.S. The stim timing is what scares me, for the same reason as the one Predy gave. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
To me the big difference is this change allows for banelings to be largely cut out of the picture, as FG, 2game seconds, FG = death to all marines. Mixed with infestors which can move while burrowed this is really going to result in raven being required now which sucks because it generally does little to nothing against zerg. So not only do we have to add in a raven (heavy useless investment), but we have to micro much more carefully because any slip up with the marine ball will result in instant death to 1 or at most 2 infestors. Basically what this all adds up to is even more careful micro required by terran, while the micro stays similar for zerg, they dont need to micro banelings, instead micro infestors. Getting ghosts to counter a few infestors is a laughably bad investment. Ghosts cost more then infestors, you need to get cloak so you can emp before they get FG off most times, you need to spend alot of micro trying to counter the infestors and then your really expensive unit does basically nothing else. At least in TvP it kills shields and sentry energy so there are added bonuses. There is a reason that everyone has been linking that same bradOK video for the past 6months, because there is only one example of high level ghost usage in TvZ, that should tell you something. The Terran army has to do alot of marine splitting, stimming, quickly seiging up and I for one certainly don't have any apm to spare dicking around with snipe or non-premediated emps. Obviously a very carefully played marine/tank/medivac should still work approximately the same, but it is obvious that now terrans have to play even more carefully then before. Obviously everyone thinks its unfair when they get nerfed, but this buff mixed with big maps will result in a terran buff or some nerfs for the other races next patch. I'll just end by saying I don't know why blizzard thought that it was appropriate to buff zergs mid-late game unit when they already had the advantage in macro (xposition) games and terran had the advantage in close position/early game. Good job blizzard, this mixed with the new giant maps = bullshit. Giant maps are for another post however. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
and how is the outcome of 1.3 patch that Zergs learnt to have infestors positioned at their bases if they have the tech | ||
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-Mav-
United States50 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:23 Lurk wrote: If you don't get marines, how do you deal with mutas ? Marines and battlecruisers are the only cost effective ways to deal with magic boxed mass mutas - do you get BCs ? Wrong. Thors are still cost effective vs mutas even with magic box. They are also my unit of choice against mutas. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:00 -Mav- wrote: Wrong. Thors are still cost effective vs mutas even with magic box. They are also my unit of choice against mutas. 10 Mutas (barely) kill 3 thors when magic boxed. That's 1000/1000 or 2000 resources for the mutas and 1200/900 or 2100 resources for the thors - not my definition of cost effective. In smaller numbers thors are more effective (you need 4 mutas to kill one thor) but i was specifically talking about mass mutas. I always get a couple of thors as a supplement for my marines (to have range advantage and force him to magic box) but relying solely on thors for muta defense is not a good idea. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:07 Lurk wrote: 10 Mutas (barely) kill 3 thors when magic boxed. That's 1000/1000 or 2000 resources for the mutas and 1200/900 or 2100 resources for the thors - not my definition of cost effective. In smaller numbers thors are more effective (you need 4 mutas to kill one thor) but i was specifically talking about mass mutas. I always get a couple of thors as a supplement for my marines (to have range advantage and force him to magic box) but relying solely on thors for muta defense is not a good idea. Small thing but thors are 300/200, 3 of them would be 900/600 or 1500 resources. 4 thors with +2 weapons would take out 10 mutas with no splash, attacking in 5 rounds of attack. I think the key is what the AtK ratio is. you do need to have +2 weapons for thors to be cost efficient and hope the mutas don't have air carapace. | ||
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Aldehyde
Sweden939 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:53 statikg wrote: (A summary of statikg's post) Some whining about APM Basically saying that ravens are necessary yet a "useless investment" Ghosts are unnecessary. Some more APM whining. Suddenly saying that everything is fine if you do a carefully played marine/tank/medivac push. Whining about cross positions and how the infestor change will give zergs an auto win. Ravens are a bad investment? Really? Since when? A raven in mid-late game is a must in all TvZs, imo. They let you remove creep without having to scan every 10 feet, they let you spot baneling bombs that would otherwise kill all your marines without having to scan 10 feet. They also have PDDs for mutas. Sure they won't last long but it's something. A raven is NOT a useless investment. I agree, I don't really see a use for ghosts. If doing a carefully played marine/tank/medivac works, then what the fuck is the problem? Cross positions is not an auto loss against zerg like you try to make it seem. It's harder to pressure, sure, but you too can expand. Think about it, taking a third, a step in the right direction. | ||
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Hoban
United States1600 Posts
marine/tank: -Ravens! The big trouble i had was poking ahead with marines to give tank range then getting infestored or mutas picking off back tanks. I found camping all my marines at my tanks (to fend off mutas) and using auto turrets+scans to scout ahead was much much better. trying air dominance: -the thing i hate most about zerg is muta's. I haven't tried anything else yet but I love banshees and vikings. My thought was to comprise my main army of hellion, banshee, viking. heavy on the hellion and viking. This would help shut down all muta play and allow some awesome overloard harass. Cloak on banshees could definitely increase their survivability (though might want to get a raven first cant be certain). The idea would still be to engage slowly off creep using banshees to reduce creap spread. since the army is so mobile you can easily punish engagements off creep. just some ideas to spurn the process. I don't think mass bio is the way to head into late game any more. I apologize for any mispelling/bad capitalization I am posting from my crappy phone. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:11 TheRealDJ wrote:Small thing but thors are 300/200, 3 of them would be 900/600 or 1500 resources. 4 thors with +2 weapons would take out 10 mutas with no splash, attacking in 5 rounds of attack. I think the key is what the AtK ratio is. you do need to have +2 weapons for thors to be cost efficient and hope the mutas don't have air carapace. Oups, sorry. I must have gotten them mixed up with BCs somehow :O | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
Seriously this matchup needs more nukes, that being said the infestor counters both the small and massable (MM) and the big and heavy (thor). Thor is probably the way to go though. Thor drops can force a zerg in to going muta, which will greatly limit the number of infestors they can make, which might allow for some marauder heavy MMM? I think the sk terran style antisocial monkey described might work well, since you can hunter missile the infestors all you like. If you can keep the infestor numbers down, i can see mmm/mmt still working. edit: does 1 snipe take out an infestor? | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
The one combination that really scares me now is the broodlords+infestors Infestors are now a pretty good counter to vikings (with the +30% vs armored), and vikings are the only logical counter to broodlords Btw, many spoke about bratok usage of snipe and emp vs infestors in that MU, have any1 noticed the NP on 1 ghost to emp all his ghosts friends? thats so sick... and cutting totally the option of a ghost to be a fair counter considering its heavy cost | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:22 dohgg wrote: We must understand that more infestors means less mutas, and terran just need to fit the unit composition to more tanks. The one combination that really scares me now is the broodlords+infestors Infestors are now a pretty good counter to vikings (with the +30% vs armored), and vikings are the only logical counter to broodlords Btw, many spoke about bratok usage of snipe and emp vs infestors in that MU, have any1 noticed the NP on 1 ghost to emp all his ghosts friends? thats so sick... and cutting totally the option of a ghost to be a fair counter considering its heavy cost Oh blizzard, buffing a unit against both light and armored units. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Is Muta/Ling/Infestor the new Muta/Ling/Bling? | ||
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isospeedrix
United States215 Posts
Some terrans feel like it's a "cheap" or "cheesy" method but hey, do what it takes to win. I'm a zerg player and I feel it's a completely legitimate way for me to lose to mass banshee play. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On March 24 2011 06:13 Aldehyde wrote: Ravens are a bad investment? Really? Since when? A raven in mid-late game is a must in all TvZs, imo. They let you remove creep without having to scan every 10 feet, they let you spot baneling bombs that would otherwise kill all your marines without having to scan 10 feet. They also have PDDs for mutas. Sure they won't last long but it's something. A raven is NOT a useless investment. I agree, I don't really see a use for ghosts. If doing a carefully played marine/tank/medivac works, then what the fuck is the problem? Cross positions is not an auto loss against zerg like you try to make it seem. It's harder to pressure, sure, but you too can expand. Think about it, taking a third, a step in the right direction. What you have done mostly here is to create a fallacy called a straw man, you incorrectly represented my position and then shot it down. Also some personal attacks thrown in. Your points about the raven are valid, they do have some relevant uses. However as I very rarely run into burrowed banelings for some reason (I think most zerg playing ling/bling muta dont get burrow), I find that scanning occasionally to kill creep is worth it because of how constantly gas strapped I am fighting zerg. 200 gas is alot for creep killing... against mutas I generally think the game is decided once the banelings are dead or the marines are dead, its rarely a close fight between mutas and marines that a PDD is going to matter in. Your other points are poor however. You act like just because its possible for a strat to work, then there cannot be a problem with imbalance. The point is, beforehand the strategy worked with equal chances of winning and losing in fact it was so equal that the results would tip largely based on spawn distance, now because terran has less room for error, the chances of losing has increased, thus imbalance. I also didnt make it seem like cross positions was an auto loss at all. I simply pointed out that on cross positions zerg have an advantage (claim backed by tons of common TvZ stats showing that zerg win more then 50% in xpos and less then 50% in close. Then I drew a conclusion that based on this data larger maps will result in more zerg victories, which I have already experienced on the ladder (I have done quite well against zerg lately actually but my results are significantly lower on the new maps esp in xpos when running the same strategy on both maps, (which is not a 1 base all in). | ||
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SecretA5DC
Korea (South)225 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:43 Aldehyde wrote: Wow, just because he disagrees with "the one and only Griffith" he should get a ban? Really? I don't see the problem with infestors, this isn't something new. The only new thing is that you actually receive a punishment for being stupid enough having your marines up front. Get some more tanks, seriously. If he's getting that many infestors he won't have many mutas and so you don't need as many marines and they don't need to cover as big of an area. Spread out your tanks and spread the marines in between. Slow push with tanks in front NOT the marines. You don't need ghosts and if you get ghosts, learn to use snipe instead of EMP. But yeah, it must be tough to actually have to think about how you engage the zerg now. And yes, I am a terran player. P.S. The stim timing is what scares me, for the same reason as the one Predy gave. Did you even read the guy's post? It was just personal attacks and trolling. | ||
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