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On March 19 2011 04:46 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 04:17 kwan_1984 wrote:
JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over I just tried it against Hard AI and roflstomped the AI with it. Very hard might be problematic, because that's the level where the AI has perfect macro, and insane would be impossible because the AI gets a resource advantage.
Went 4/4 vs Very Hard AI. No point in trying against insane.
I used this build order:
When you have 10 scvs queued and 50 minerals, pull a worker to head towards the enemy.
Use 9th SCV to build a depot
11 rax
11 gas
SCVs to 14
Tech Lab
2nd rax
Marauder when rax is complete, shells with next 50 gas
Depot
Marauder + Marine
Once the first marauder finishes, you can take it up the ramp with the scv, which will take care of the 2 marines that can be out by that point. Once the second marauder + marine comes out, it should be easy.
This comes from playing the Very Hard AI, though, which never tried to put down a bunker, and was done on XelNaga. Timings may be slightly different for different base-to-base travel distances.
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On March 19 2011 03:56 JFO wrote:I just tried this against a teamliquidian 3.3k Masters league.And it worked again, does anyone still think this build isnt good? think again. It will work ALOT, people are unprepared and they have to place their bunker sooo good its pretty hard. Here is replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196643.jpg) Did you even watch the replay before uploading this? The guy sends his scout scv right past your proxy barracks... he could've just killed your constructing scv and you lose.
Second, rather than producing marines he tries to add a tech lab of his own, then places a terribly placed bunker. This seems more like your opponent reacting terribly (and not watching the minimap) then your cheese being strong.
In the second game you uploaded, your opponent is going for a gas first fast helion build, which is risky against any sort of proxy barracks play. He also misplaces his bunker, as it is not in range of the ramp and allows your marauders free range to roam around in his base.
I'm sorry, but this just seems like a pretty weak and very risky cheese. If your opponent places his bunker properly, he's fine. If he pulls 1-2 scvs to go along with his first 2 marines, he can deal with your first rauder and get the bunker up easily. Then you're left with 2 proxy barracks and are not in a good position at all.
Basically, it's a cheese that is easily scoutable and is easily countered. The two replays you uploaded (be they against masters league or not, I don't care), your opponents both react very poorly. All it takes is 1 well-placed bunker to stop you (well-placed as in at the top of the ramp, rather than in their main where it doesn't actually cover their base).
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On March 19 2011 05:35 murkk wrote:
It's far better to double proxy rax marines than do marauders.
Against the AI at least, it seems a lot easier with marauders. The AI aggressively sends scvs, and it's much easier to kite with marauders, and scvs actually kill marines pretty fast.
The extra range on the marauder will also make it easier to take potshots at things outside of the bunker's range, and concussive shells will stop marines from hit-n-running out of the bunker, because any marine that gets caught pretty much dies.
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I do this to annoy friends occasionally 
That and a variant on the old 11 starport banshees 
Anyway, some tricks that can help with this if anyone's interested. You can usually keep their marine busy chasing an scv of yours scouting their base, which usually either a) delays their bunkers timing because attention is limited; or b) takes their marine so far away, you can get into their base even with the bunker up.
Also, if they do get a well placed bunker up that can hold off your first push, feel free to build up 7 marauders and break it down in 3 shots. Again, if they're decent and throw down a second raxx, then you're screwed, but it's cheese anyway so what the hell
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marine scv demolishes marauders in small numbers. mass repairing an scv making a bunker... I can't really see this working
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Nothing in their base? Immediately check and expect proxy, I thought that was standard.... even if you don't see it you can pull 3-4 SCVs, when the push is repelled you are forced to float away your barracks and are massively behind.
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As an example... since this is an all in approach. I just threw down a test game to see what I can do. I didn't want to refine this build but just wanted to see what I could get out by 3:45.
As you can see, I have 4 marines and some SCVs. You had one marauder.
Nothing against marauders, but really they don't do enough DPS.
Marine Rush
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Pretty sure the OP is not trying to revolutionize TvT into Proxy Marauder wars. It's just another strat for whenever you're bored to try out. Believe it or not, it works nominally well even on Masters on 2 players maps.
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing
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On March 19 2011 05:36 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 04:46 Skrag wrote:On March 19 2011 04:17 kwan_1984 wrote:
JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over I just tried it against Hard AI and roflstomped the AI with it. Very hard might be problematic, because that's the level where the AI has perfect macro, and insane would be impossible because the AI gets a resource advantage. Went 4/4 vs Very Hard AI. No point in trying against insane.
Oh nice I am looking for a build that takes down very hard AI...
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
You can take out Very Hard or Insane AI pretty easily by abusing the AI-- just build/cancel buildings in their base, and they will pull stuff to try to attack your building, losing mining time, among other things.
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this actually has some neat followup with it. if you proxy 12 rax 12 gas you can have enough to throw down a second rax and keep making marauders/scvs/depos and some bunkers in his nat for a soft contain until he gets tanks and get stim + a CC started in your nat if it doesnt look safe to suicide units into bunkers. i think this could do amazing vs someone who wants to 1 rax expand.
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On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing).
Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese.
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On March 19 2011 13:38 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing). Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese.
you're clearly on platinum at most. and have never played a TvT in your life.
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With scout at 13 or 14 and not seeing rax but seeing refinery, it's a pretty easy call to drop a bunker.
I don't think this strat is necessarily bad but it puts you pretty much behind in tech due to gas investment in marauder/tech lab/(conc?). I mean yeah it works if you don't expect it but I don't see how you can't expect it with regular scout timing.
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On March 19 2011 13:52 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 13:38 JDub wrote:On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing). Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese. you're clearly on platinum at most. and have never played a TvT in your life. My rank is kind of irrelevant, but since you bring it up I actually got to Master's as a Random player, although I have since switched to Zerg (currently 2.6k Master's with 600 bonus pool). I'm glad that you have resorted to trolling your own thread though. Thanks.
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Id like to chime in, and say that I've experimented with this build....
I like the build a lot and think it has a lot of potential, especially with the confusion it creates... I'm personally a huge fan as it has many transition options and puts opponents on defensive contain REALLY quick! :D
Stop hating and try it! when your opponent scouts it you can as a previous stated, cut maruader and switch to tech and reaper harass... This is a very fun build and I will definitely personally be throwing it into rotation...
I personally dont think it's cheese at all, since it is no way putting you all in.
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I'm not sure I buy that proxy marines are better or that "marine scv demolishes marauders in small numbers". If marines are not in a bunker, they simply die too damn fast, even to scvs, and kiting is way easier and more effective with marauders, especially after the shells finish.
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On March 19 2011 14:05 Ganon- wrote:
With scout at 13 or 14 and not seeing rax but seeing refinery, it's a pretty easy call to drop a bunker.
If you scout at 13 or 14 and don't start the bunker until you see their base, I don't think that bunker gets up in time.
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LETS SEEE SOME VERY HARD OR INSANE AI REPLAYS..... and more replays besides the OP's....
I donno Im still to pussy to try this on ladder... i need to be convinced a bit more.
Im a 3200 diamond, and i cant even beat a very hard AI Terran...
ive been doing TvT,, because its my weakest match up
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I fell victim to this playing customs, and lost. I'm normally Diamond, but haven't played in a while, and all the losing has been making me tilt a little.
Scouting his base, I knew that something was up immediately, and eventually scout my natural on Xel'Naga and saw it. I was doing iEchoic's TvT build, or was planning to, but put up a bunker and got a second rax up, which threw it off. Still, once the bunker was up, and I pulled a few SCVs to repair, I was completely safe.
I got a good force of hellions up, as well as a banshee. There weren't many marines, so I was able to poke and prod loose tanks and buildings outside the range of the missile turret. My biggest mistake was not making use of my hellions and a medivac to do drops. When a Thor came out, that was it for me. However, with only marauders defending back at his base for some time, hellions could have had free reign, and starved out the proxy.
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EPT
