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I am a 3.3k masters protoss but I've been fooling around with terran lately.
And being a risky guy like I am, I noticed this is VERY very strong if you dont know its coming or you expect reaper..
basically make your first rax the closest to his base as possible and land it inside or maybe just stay outside, start concusive but send your first marauder to attack. if he has less than 3 marines hes dead with proper micro...
We can use this as an allin Keeping making marauders and add another rax OR as an overal long term strat, forcing him to spend minerals on defending that and throwing him out of his pace.
I could not find a thread on this, and I think this is such a baller cheese I thought it deserved a thread.
What do high master terrans have to say about this? have you tried it? have people done it to you or something? Whats your first reaction to stop it?
baller marauder:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Wow thats a nice idea. However I do not cheese so probably will never use this build unless I would just use it for pressure.
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Can you post some replays or a structured build order for it?
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Your masters but you don't anticipate somebody just pulling an scv, or building a bunker as soon as they see a proxy?
Replays help ;p I couldnt imagine this doing damage but i dont mind being proved wrong
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Seems a bit... ineffective? First of all, the second he scouts no rax / delayed rax in your main, he will check his base/surroundings. Also, I'm not sure that simply pulling 4-5 scvs and having 2 marines out with decent micro doesn't deal sufficiently with this. Not sure about the timings :-)
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
You just need to pull some scvs to buy time while you bunker up your ramp and you'll be perfectly safe.
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Yeah welcome to Terran. As everyone else is saying, just pull scvs to surround the marauder and murder it asaply. Losing mining time for 4-6 scvs sucks, but you're killing 125-25 plus he's eventually going to lose the add-on for the proxy rax as well. Pulling SCVs solves many problems in SC2.
Similarly it also creates many problems.
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This strat is only for a 2 player map.
I went to play this on custom games real quick to make sure i find a T, guy might be a noob i dont know but this is the fundamental idea.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196616.jpg)
As soon as concusive is done he cant out micro you.
Yeah we know the opponen will scout it, but if he might think of reaper or whatever.
You can also do this as protoss and make a reaper and a marauder and switch each depending on if he made a zealot or a fast stalker and micro it out.
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On March 19 2011 00:19 infinity21 wrote:
You just need to pull some scvs to buy time while you bunker up your ramp and you'll be perfectly safe.
So if we incorporate this into a 2 rax factory opening or something alike, wouldnt it be worth it? plus, dont you think getting a couple of scvs isnt worth the cheese?
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BratOK did this a TON in the beta vs T and vs P, it was eventually phased out. This is probably why you're finding it's strong, people haven't seen it in months. But it used to be quite common. 10 (maybe 8?)rax, 11 gas, 11 depot, 2 scvs in gas I think gets you everything you need (after you get gas for techlab) but I dont remember the specifics.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_Marauder_(vs._Terran)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_Marauder_(vs._Protoss)
The terran build explanation and reasoning I find is a bit wierd, I've always proxied it but anyways the build is still the same.
I think after the third or 4th marauder you have enough minerals to drop a second barracks.
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How do you get "a couple of SCVs" with your 1-2 M?
Like ppl said before, the second they see your late rax in the main, every good opponent will scout for proxys.
I think exchanging two Marauders + a techlab for some Marines/SCVs at best, isn't worth it 
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 19 2011 00:24 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 00:19 infinity21 wrote:
You just need to pull some scvs to buy time while you bunker up your ramp and you'll be perfectly safe. So if we incorporate this into a 2 rax factory opening or something alike, wouldnt it be worth it? plus, dont you think getting a couple of scvs isnt worth the cheese?
The strength of this build was the guaranteed damage vs a 12 rax opening but its not as good now.
I wouldn't suggest skipping starport since its quote likely that your opponent will go banshees.
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Anyone saying people will scout it have really no knowledge of timing at all.
your enemy CANT react in any other way than making a bunker and putting his marines inside there.
if he does that, you can pick off marines and a couple of scvs even without micro, PERIOD.
you know how much life a marauder has? you know how much a fucking marine does to a marauder? nothing. go try it out.
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Pretty kewl that he didnt scout the barracks or the bunker till you had 2 marauders, but its a shame you start flaming him for no reason lol
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This reminds me of a couple of 2v2's I played where the double terran did a double proxy by my base. Was really annoying and killed me very quickly.
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DeMusliM was a huge fan of this one back in the beta. Dunno if he ever used it since cuz it seemed like the opponents figured out how to protect against it.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Actually rines do perfectly fine vs unmicroed marauders lol
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Anyone cares to come online and test it out with me TvT?
EasywinNORE . 309
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On March 19 2011 00:42 infinity21 wrote:
Actually rines do perfectly fine vs unmicroed marauders lol
do you know their hps? do you know how long it takes a marine or two to kill 1 marauder?
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3 marines + 4-5 scv's and this is nulified, and you have to lift off your rax again etc.
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in the Orginal replay,,, how did this guy know where to throw down the barracks, without scounting the oringal base,,, watching his view,,, he had NOOO idea where the base was,,, without a Maphack that is..... I smell cheater in this one,, he did not even SEE the opponents scout come out of that base either.... unless he just blindedly put the barracks tehre with luck,, but when does that ever happen?
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On March 19 2011 00:43 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 00:42 infinity21 wrote:
Actually rines do perfectly fine vs unmicroed marauders lol do you know their hps? do you know how long it takes a marine or two to kill 1 marauder?
just for the record with no micro a marauder beats 2 marines with 5 hp remaining
On March 19 2011 00:48 Pulimuli wrote:
3 marines + 4-5 scv's and this is nulified, and you have to lift off your rax again etc.
watch the replay on the first page, you can only have 2 marines out in time, and even if you bring scvs asap the guy just builds a bunker at the bottom of the ramp
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3...even 2 rines +some scvs will hold this off no problemo.I can say this because i have faced lots of 1 rax rauder builds before.
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Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for.
Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build.
His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player.
Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it.
Sorry yo
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1. You can't fly a rax over to his base in time to actually do anything. He's probably onto banshees by the time you land it.
2. It's so easy to scout. He doesn't have to find your proxy rax to defeat you, he just needs to send a probe into your base and say WTF... nothing here.
3. Concussive shells isn't all that hot against marines because you're always greatly outnumbered. Much better against protoss where you're even numbers.
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On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo
i completly agree with this though :D i think theres room for a build like this to "work" with a quick second rax and alot of marauders trying to hit a timing before siegetech/tanks are out. but a good player will react better to there being no rax in your base.
you could build your first rax in your base and then proxy a second / third though, as far as a tvt cheese goes i can see this being workable
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On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo
i do get defensive when people comment on things they dont even know.. like yourself for example.
When are you guys gonna get that YOU WONT have more than 2 marines out when I come in? and that my marauder and incoming ones beat that easily?
Yes you can make your own bunker, yes yes i know, but with proper micro, you wont be able to make it as ill just kill ur scv with my incomin rauders with micro.
Its not as easy as you guys post it, if people were to try stuff before commenting on it, you would be much much better at this game.
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On March 19 2011 00:10 Eleaven wrote:
Your masters but you don't anticipate somebody just pulling an scv, or building a bunker as soon as they see a proxy?
Replays help ;p I couldnt imagine this doing damage but i dont mind being proved wrong
this, if its impossible to stop with just 3 rines, then a good T will build an early bunker, or simply oull an scv or two. Its something different, but easily stopped
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A couple of your are missing the biggest point, that this only really works on a 2 person map. Only 2 of the current ladder maps are 2 player maps, so this only works on 2 out of the 8 maps.
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you can easilie defend this with some scvs and your marines, while constant produce marines ...
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watch the replay on the first page, you can only have 2 marines out in time, and even if you bring scvs asap the guy just builds a bunker at the bottom of the ramp
This is just wrong. In pretty much any standard build, I'm immediately producing marines out of my rax once it's down. I will continue to just produce marines out of it. By the time you get a tech lab out and are pumping out marauders, I'll outnumber you 3-1. If you build right in my base, i'll be half way done my third. By the time you have your concusive shells, I'll have my 2nd rax down and will be ready to push out and just kill you.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 19 2011 01:06 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo i do get defensive when people comment on things they dont even know.. like yourself for example. When are you guys gonna get that YOU WONT have more than 2 marines out when I come in? and that my marauder and incoming ones beat that easily? Yes you can make your own bunker, yes yes i know, but with proper micro, you wont be able to make it as ill just kill ur scv with my incomin rauders with micro. Its not as easy as you guys post it, if people were to try stuff before commenting on it, you would be much much better at this game.
You don't need more than 2 marines to buy enough time to bunker.
Add infinity.372
I'll be on tomorrow for most of the day and maybe later tonight.
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On March 19 2011 01:06 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo i do get defensive when people comment on things they dont even know.. like yourself for example. When are you guys gonna get that YOU WONT have more than 2 marines out when I come in? and that my marauder and incoming ones beat that easily? Yes you can make your own bunker, yes yes i know, but with proper micro, you wont be able to make it as ill just kill ur scv with my incomin rauders with micro. Its not as easy as you guys post it, if people were to try stuff before commenting on it, you would be much much better at this game.
Okok, I admit, I was just being jelly, I tried it on ladder and it worked brilliantly, I think I'll get Gold soon with this. Also thanks for the last paragraph, seems about right, will try that ^^
PS I'm thinking of building the barracks directly on his ramp, so he can't block it with another supply. You think it could be good? Ty
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I don't understand this at all...
you proxy a rax, your opponent should scout you and see that your barracks is really late but yet you have started a gas. Who doesn't assume proxy at this point? I guess I would assume proxy reaper and not marauder.
I guess the thing that I don't understand the most is even if you were completely unprepared and didn't have a bunker, scv's actually do pretty well killing unstimmed marauders.
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I like the idea, but any player with half a brain will see no rax in your base and put up a bunker. I would like to see that beat a well placed bunker being repaired, and if someone continued producing correctly they would have had a tank out before your maruaders got in the base.
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intrestinnng but at the same time.. it will only be popular for a short amount of time until people learn start checking their bases instinctivly.
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I won quite a few games when I was at 3k-3.2k with this build. But I did find that after a while, a normal 10 depot scout SCV will scout my base on a map like Xel'naga and see no Barracks.
Then he'll assume it's some kind of proxy and make a bunker which completes just as soon as my 1st Marauder arrives at his ramp.
My build order went 10 depot 12 racks 12 gas and then the Barrack/Tech by his Gold Spawn on Xel.
I suppose I could speed up the Racks timing but if it did end up failing I would be really behing econwise.
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I like the idea, but any player with half a brain will see no rax in your base and put up a bunker. I would like to see that beat a well placed bunker being repaired, and if someone continued producing correctly they would have had a tank out before your maruaders got in the base.
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On March 19 2011 01:33 SecretA5DC wrote:
I won quite a few games when I was at 3k-3.2k with this build. But I did find that after a while, a normal 10 depot scout SCV will scout my base on a map like Xel'naga and see no Barracks.
Then he'll assume it's some kind of proxy and make a bunker which completes just as soon as my 1st Marauder arrives at his ramp.
My build order went 10 depot 12 racks 12 gas and then the Barrack/Tech by his Gold Spawn on Xel.
I suppose I could speed up the Racks timing but if it did end up failing I would be really behing econwise.
nice, and yeah quite true man, its funny too because most people expect reaper when seeing gas and wont make a bunker or place it incorrectly against marauder.
I was never trying to say this build is unbeatable, im just saying it might be as legit as a canon rush or proxy gates in PvP but in TvT
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One would just use 2 or 3 scv's to defend. I don't think you will be able to sneak a barracks in, unless
its 4 person map and you know his position but he doesn't know yours.
I think the risk isn't worth the reward.
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On ladder, sure you'll probably get a good winratio with this build. But vs actual good players/pros i doubt you will have much success pulling that shit off.
Will be interested in hearing the results if you play some customs with a high level terran and not some random from ladder.
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the problem with this is all about the scout. I agree it would probably work until low daimond very effectively because people wouldnt know how to cope with seeing gas and no rax. If it were myelf i immediately drop a bunker at my front because i am expecting maruaders or less likely reapers. In the first case even my unwalled front with 1 bunker you will take enough dmg in a runby even from 2 marines and with a proper scv pull maruaders cant be microd against workers, you will maybe kill 1 or 2 if they dont micro well. This dmg is not worth the cost of putting yourself behind in tech with a pointless proxy barracks. In the second case if it does happen to be reapers, no matter how good speedless reapers are against marines i will have more than enough or even a hellion to defend. If you go allin speed reapers (pretty dumb imo) i will have tanks , banshees coming by then and you simply wont be able to hold. Hopefully i explained myself well
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well this thread inspired me to try it and it really really works
i did it twice once vs. T and the other vs. P. Vs. the T he didnt scout it and then a marauder was knocking on his door and i got his 3 rines that he had out. I was pestering him while researching conc just like he said and once it finished there was nothing he could do because my 2nd and 3rd Marauder were on the way so i cold leapfrog away from the SCVs. He pulled his entire line at once because he knew he had lost but my marauders barely lost any health. he built a bunker but it didnt help because i had already killed his rines.
Vs. the P he scouted for proxies and found it sitting there with a tech lab so he built a stalker for reapers and sent his one zealot to try to destroy it. The marauder finished just before he got my tech lab to burn. Then i just kited him until my second marauder came out. Meanwhile, I built 1 rax techlab at home and started marauder production. Long story short, he ended up holding off the first rax but i proceeded into MM plus stim and he could not hold it off at all.
I like it better as a sort of pressure opening transition into either tanks or MMM, but it definitely works.
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people are msging me on battlenet saying they are trying my build and working, from all ranks.
so whatever, anyone with half brain trying this is gonna get pretty good results even against good players.
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So I officially call this "JFO Proxy Marauder"
Pronounced J, FO.
Soon to be seen at the GSL when pros do their own version of this.
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haha just tried this against Hard AI TVT,,,, got my ass handed to me.....
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.. Dont get cocky, at most this will become a reason for terrans who arent scouting in TvT on 2 players map to start. This will not work at a masters level
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peeps post some more replays..... hahah has anyone tried this against hard AI at all???
the assholes have like 6 marines by the time i have 2-3 rauders lol.
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On March 19 2011 02:28 JFO wrote:
people are msging me on battlenet saying they are trying my build and working, from all ranks.
so whatever, anyone with half brain trying this is gonna get pretty good results even against good players.
I don't think people will msg you and bash u that this build is not working though :p When it works, people tend to msg u and thank you, but when it doesn't they will just "meh, life goes on, next please"
Faced this build once in a while. Have some wins, have some lose. imo it's just one of the fastfood strat, which is perfectly fine. I guess because your main race is Protoss, and you don't play Terran too much, but if your race is Terran, and normally when you scout and don't see the rax but see refinery, you'll know it's fast marauders, not reaper.
This strat makes me remember when I play blistering sand tvt, I love double proxy rax and float them into Terran base because the base in that map is so big lolz.
tldr: this build works, that why it is popular duing beta, and still be used today. But like 2 rax proxy, hidden starport, hidden thor rush,... it's just a fun fastfood build you do to throw people offguard to get quick win.
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On March 19 2011 02:36 JFO wrote:So I officially call this "JFO Proxy Marauder" Pronounced J, FO. Soon to be seen at the GSL when pros do their own version of this.
I don't think you can just claim a name for a build that has been around since beta. But a nice attempt 
I would still like to see some high level replays of this - only one replay in this thread so far  . To the people saying "he would have tanks out!" "he would have 3 marines out!" you are wrong simply looking at the time taken to build the structures. Assuming you are still dropping your raxx at 12 food the opponent would have 2 marines (as you said). I would love to actually try this out myself at a high level, but unfortunately I'm only mid-diamond and its... 5am. Heh.
Hope to wake up in a few hours and see some awesome replays and less people coming and flaming without even considering the build!
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I just tried this against a teamliquidian 3.3k Masters league.
And it worked again, does anyone still think this build isnt good? think again. It will work ALOT, people are unprepared and they have to place their bunker sooo good its pretty hard.
Here is replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196643.jpg)
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JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over
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Right, because the AI uses a map hack. So he knows what you are up to at all times.
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Second Master TvT 3.1k
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196651.jpg)
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On March 19 2011 04:17 kwan_1984 wrote:
JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over
I just tried it against Hard AI and roflstomped the AI with it. Very hard might be problematic, because that's the level where the AI has perfect macro, and insane would be impossible because the AI gets a resource advantage.
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On March 19 2011 03:56 JFO wrote:I just tried this against a teamliquidian 3.3k Masters league.And it worked again, does anyone still think this build isnt good? think again. It will work ALOT, people are unprepared and they have to place their bunker sooo good its pretty hard. Here is replay:
You cant use this as an example.
The guy saw you building a rax outside his base yet he ignored it and just went into your main, and only when he didnt see anything there did he react with the worst placed bunker of all time.
Had he pulled his SCV to attack yours building the rax you would've been so far behind. I almost cant believe he's 3.3k masters O.o Well i guess he could be and he just got really unlucky and didnt look at his minimap. Either way that was him losing the game, not you winning.
Oh, and in the first game the guy lost a barracks to 3 marauders. It's a mystery why he didnt just lift it and land it further behind where he had his bunker (or was building it, either way).
Not saying anything about the strat, but i'd like to see someone who reacts correctly play against this build
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This "can" work at Masters level. That being said, if the Terran has any sort of brain he'll opt for an instant bunker as soon as he scouts no Barracks at your base.
However, if he doesn't do any of the above or even waits a little bit, you have the opportunity to do some damage.
To the OP, if the op does place a Bunker at his ramp, I do find that doing a soft contain of some sort works. Cut Marauder production right away and maybe even place a bunker at his natural so it takes tanks to break out and expand.
Also, after you cut Marauder production you can also a Reaper to scout/harass his workers. Chances are that he's so focused on blocking this "All in barrack/scv rush" that he's focusing all his marines at his ramp. A reaper can get in, see what he's up to and even take out some gas scv's if you got good control.
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I wish I wasn't at work. Did I mention I matched 5 of 7 numbers in the lottery this week. And I only made $125... 2 numbers from 50million .
Just like the lottery, there is something just not right about this post. I can't check the replay until tonight, but I've practiced terran cheese and marauders are strong units but just not against marines. In fact, they just kill things too slow in small numbers.
Kiting marines with concussive shell? Sure, they're great against zealots and when they're chasing down outnumbered units. But kiting marines isn't all that great.
True, Marauders are the most bang for the second you can produce early in the game, but they cost a lot of money and it's generally not worth rushing it.
It's far better to double proxy rax marines than do marauders.
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On March 19 2011 04:46 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 04:17 kwan_1984 wrote:
JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over I just tried it against Hard AI and roflstomped the AI with it. Very hard might be problematic, because that's the level where the AI has perfect macro, and insane would be impossible because the AI gets a resource advantage.
Went 4/4 vs Very Hard AI. No point in trying against insane.
I used this build order:
When you have 10 scvs queued and 50 minerals, pull a worker to head towards the enemy.
Use 9th SCV to build a depot
11 rax
11 gas
SCVs to 14
Tech Lab
2nd rax
Marauder when rax is complete, shells with next 50 gas
Depot
Marauder + Marine
Once the first marauder finishes, you can take it up the ramp with the scv, which will take care of the 2 marines that can be out by that point. Once the second marauder + marine comes out, it should be easy.
This comes from playing the Very Hard AI, though, which never tried to put down a bunker, and was done on XelNaga. Timings may be slightly different for different base-to-base travel distances.
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On March 19 2011 03:56 JFO wrote:I just tried this against a teamliquidian 3.3k Masters league.And it worked again, does anyone still think this build isnt good? think again. It will work ALOT, people are unprepared and they have to place their bunker sooo good its pretty hard. Here is replay: Did you even watch the replay before uploading this? The guy sends his scout scv right past your proxy barracks... he could've just killed your constructing scv and you lose.
Second, rather than producing marines he tries to add a tech lab of his own, then places a terribly placed bunker. This seems more like your opponent reacting terribly (and not watching the minimap) then your cheese being strong.
In the second game you uploaded, your opponent is going for a gas first fast helion build, which is risky against any sort of proxy barracks play. He also misplaces his bunker, as it is not in range of the ramp and allows your marauders free range to roam around in his base.
I'm sorry, but this just seems like a pretty weak and very risky cheese. If your opponent places his bunker properly, he's fine. If he pulls 1-2 scvs to go along with his first 2 marines, he can deal with your first rauder and get the bunker up easily. Then you're left with 2 proxy barracks and are not in a good position at all.
Basically, it's a cheese that is easily scoutable and is easily countered. The two replays you uploaded (be they against masters league or not, I don't care), your opponents both react very poorly. All it takes is 1 well-placed bunker to stop you (well-placed as in at the top of the ramp, rather than in their main where it doesn't actually cover their base).
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On March 19 2011 05:35 murkk wrote:
It's far better to double proxy rax marines than do marauders.
Against the AI at least, it seems a lot easier with marauders. The AI aggressively sends scvs, and it's much easier to kite with marauders, and scvs actually kill marines pretty fast.
The extra range on the marauder will also make it easier to take potshots at things outside of the bunker's range, and concussive shells will stop marines from hit-n-running out of the bunker, because any marine that gets caught pretty much dies.
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I do this to annoy friends occasionally
That and a variant on the old 11 starport banshees
Anyway, some tricks that can help with this if anyone's interested. You can usually keep their marine busy chasing an scv of yours scouting their base, which usually either a) delays their bunkers timing because attention is limited; or b) takes their marine so far away, you can get into their base even with the bunker up.
Also, if they do get a well placed bunker up that can hold off your first push, feel free to build up 7 marauders and break it down in 3 shots. Again, if they're decent and throw down a second raxx, then you're screwed, but it's cheese anyway so what the hell
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marine scv demolishes marauders in small numbers. mass repairing an scv making a bunker... I can't really see this working
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Nothing in their base? Immediately check and expect proxy, I thought that was standard.... even if you don't see it you can pull 3-4 SCVs, when the push is repelled you are forced to float away your barracks and are massively behind.
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As an example... since this is an all in approach. I just threw down a test game to see what I can do. I didn't want to refine this build but just wanted to see what I could get out by 3:45.
As you can see, I have 4 marines and some SCVs. You had one marauder.
Nothing against marauders, but really they don't do enough DPS.
Marine Rush
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Pretty sure the OP is not trying to revolutionize TvT into Proxy Marauder wars. It's just another strat for whenever you're bored to try out. Believe it or not, it works nominally well even on Masters on 2 players maps.
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing
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On March 19 2011 05:36 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 04:46 Skrag wrote:On March 19 2011 04:17 kwan_1984 wrote:
JFLOW do this build against Hard or higher AI. and post a repaly.
I have tried it numerous times,,, hahah and the AI just Bends me over I just tried it against Hard AI and roflstomped the AI with it. Very hard might be problematic, because that's the level where the AI has perfect macro, and insane would be impossible because the AI gets a resource advantage. Went 4/4 vs Very Hard AI. No point in trying against insane.
Oh nice I am looking for a build that takes down very hard AI...
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
You can take out Very Hard or Insane AI pretty easily by abusing the AI-- just build/cancel buildings in their base, and they will pull stuff to try to attack your building, losing mining time, among other things.
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this actually has some neat followup with it. if you proxy 12 rax 12 gas you can have enough to throw down a second rax and keep making marauders/scvs/depos and some bunkers in his nat for a soft contain until he gets tanks and get stim + a CC started in your nat if it doesnt look safe to suicide units into bunkers. i think this could do amazing vs someone who wants to 1 rax expand.
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On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing).
Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese.
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On March 19 2011 13:38 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing). Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese.
you're clearly on platinum at most. and have never played a TvT in your life.
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With scout at 13 or 14 and not seeing rax but seeing refinery, it's a pretty easy call to drop a bunker.
I don't think this strat is necessarily bad but it puts you pretty much behind in tech due to gas investment in marauder/tech lab/(conc?). I mean yeah it works if you don't expect it but I don't see how you can't expect it with regular scout timing.
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On March 19 2011 13:52 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 13:38 JDub wrote:On March 19 2011 10:16 SecretA5DC wrote:
As for all those people saying "This strat fails only if the opponent fails to react properly". You could say the same about DT's, Cloak Banshees, Cannon rushes, 6 pool etc. Every 1vs1 match is pretty much trying to reduce your mistakes and react/counter to what your opponent is doing Except there is a difference between a strategy that is super easy to scout and super easy to react to (1 bunker + marines ftw), which is pretty close to an auto-loss when scouted vs. something like DTs, in which even if the opponent is prepared they can still be good (e.g. map control before a raven comes out in PvT, denial of expos, quick harass in PvZ sort of deal). Cloak banshees as well are not an all-in that becomes useless if the opponent reacts half-decently to it. I would however put this cheese on the level of a cannon rush (which outside of PvP i would recommend never doing). Basically, it just seems like a very weak form of cheese, as there are similar forms (proxy marines) that are actually better. Also the OP seems a bit over-confident in how great it is, when it really is nothing more than a mediocre cheese. you're clearly on platinum at most. and have never played a TvT in your life. My rank is kind of irrelevant, but since you bring it up I actually got to Master's as a Random player, although I have since switched to Zerg (currently 2.6k Master's with 600 bonus pool). I'm glad that you have resorted to trolling your own thread though. Thanks.
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Id like to chime in, and say that I've experimented with this build....
I like the build a lot and think it has a lot of potential, especially with the confusion it creates... I'm personally a huge fan as it has many transition options and puts opponents on defensive contain REALLY quick! :D
Stop hating and try it! when your opponent scouts it you can as a previous stated, cut maruader and switch to tech and reaper harass... This is a very fun build and I will definitely personally be throwing it into rotation...
I personally dont think it's cheese at all, since it is no way putting you all in.
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I'm not sure I buy that proxy marines are better or that "marine scv demolishes marauders in small numbers". If marines are not in a bunker, they simply die too damn fast, even to scvs, and kiting is way easier and more effective with marauders, especially after the shells finish.
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On March 19 2011 14:05 Ganon- wrote:
With scout at 13 or 14 and not seeing rax but seeing refinery, it's a pretty easy call to drop a bunker.
If you scout at 13 or 14 and don't start the bunker until you see their base, I don't think that bunker gets up in time.
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LETS SEEE SOME VERY HARD OR INSANE AI REPLAYS..... and more replays besides the OP's....
I donno Im still to pussy to try this on ladder... i need to be convinced a bit more.
Im a 3200 diamond, and i cant even beat a very hard AI Terran...
ive been doing TvT,, because its my weakest match up
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I fell victim to this playing customs, and lost. I'm normally Diamond, but haven't played in a while, and all the losing has been making me tilt a little.
Scouting his base, I knew that something was up immediately, and eventually scout my natural on Xel'Naga and saw it. I was doing iEchoic's TvT build, or was planning to, but put up a bunker and got a second rax up, which threw it off. Still, once the bunker was up, and I pulled a few SCVs to repair, I was completely safe.
I got a good force of hellions up, as well as a banshee. There weren't many marines, so I was able to poke and prod loose tanks and buildings outside the range of the missile turret. My biggest mistake was not making use of my hellions and a medivac to do drops. When a Thor came out, that was it for me. However, with only marauders defending back at his base for some time, hellions could have had free reign, and starved out the proxy.
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are you an asshole to people every time you do this
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no comment on the picture? isn't that a firebat??
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On March 19 2011 15:19 Kewlots wrote:
are you an asshole to people every time you do this
I think, by definition, you're an asshole to everyone you do a cheese against.
Though, honestly, I don't think this is even strong enough to consider a viable cheese, but if it catches people off guard, so be it.
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Here's a replay of it being used against me and me being terrible.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zz9ar44k42egcuw
It didn't really hit me with the same aggravation that a, say, cannon rush or worker all-in would. Trying to work around this little compound at my natural was very different. I think there are a lot of things I could have done to win it, though.
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2 marines barely lose to a marauder. 3 creams it.
Only a Toss would consider a marauder rush viable outside of TvP.
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On March 19 2011 01:06 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo i do get defensive when people comment on things they dont even know.. like yourself for example. When are you guys gonna get that YOU WONT have more than 2 marines out when I come in? and that my marauder and incoming ones beat that easily? Yes you can make your own bunker, yes yes i know, but with proper micro, you wont be able to make it as ill just kill ur scv with my incomin rauders with micro. Its not as easy as you guys post it, if people were to try stuff before commenting on it, you would be much much better at this game.
So this is what you're saying.
That by sending 1 marauder, you will automatically win the game, and that there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. Anyone that tries to find a hole in your build, has no idea what they're talking about, and you will get defensive unless everybody agrees with you?
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On March 19 2011 17:04 HairyProboscis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 01:06 JFO wrote:On March 19 2011 01:00 n0ise wrote:Dude, first of all, no reason to get overly defensive. People who are dismissing your build aren't saying "omg ur build sux u must be a really bad person irl and prolly ugly". They're just stating an opinion which you asked for. Secondly. I watched your replay. That's some poor sob who's scouting just cos he probably saw a mate of him scout, he has no reason for doing it nor is he looking for anything. He sees no rax and he happily returns to his base to carry on with his own sneaky build. His Marine is out when your Marauder is 1/3 done and you're building a bunker in front of his ramp - let's be real, I doubt you're gonna get away with that against a good player. Also, even if you do surprise him, all he has to do is pull 3-4 scvs and dance around until he can get his own bunker up. And that's it. Sorry yo i do get defensive when people comment on things they dont even know.. like yourself for example. When are you guys gonna get that YOU WONT have more than 2 marines out when I come in? and that my marauder and incoming ones beat that easily? Yes you can make your own bunker, yes yes i know, but with proper micro, you wont be able to make it as ill just kill ur scv with my incomin rauders with micro. Its not as easy as you guys post it, if people were to try stuff before commenting on it, you would be much much better at this game. So this is what you're saying. That by sending 1 marauder, you will automatically win the game, and that there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. Anyone that tries to find a hole in your build, has no idea what they're talking about, and you will get defensive unless everybody agrees with you?
Im just saying that JUST THAT won't be enough against the build, you need proper micro, very very good bunker placement AND react pretty fast. So this isn't as easy to stop as people are trying to make it look like. THAT'S why I get defensive, because I want people to actually try it and see it is a legitimate hard game from the defensor's perspective, and even more so, if this is the first time this is being done to you.
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Takes 5 hits for a marauder to kill an marine, with a 1.5 cooldown in attack, so 7.5 units to kill a marine. A marine does 6 dmg with a .86 cooldown cooldown, so over the same course of time a single marine will do 8.7 attacks (8) for a grand total of 48 dmg. A marauder has 100 hp. So for theory purposes you need 3 marines to kill one marauder. A marine takes 25 seconds to build, and a marauder takes 30+25 for a tech lab. By the time you get a marauder it to his main he will have 3 marines to your 1 marauder, easily enough to kill your marauder, while only losing 1, maybe 2 marines. Concussive takes 60 seconds to research so will not be done.
This cost you 100 minerals for the marauder, 50 for the tech lab, 25 gas for the marauder and 25 gas for the tech lab. If you attempt to get concussive shells and pursue this further, thats an added 50 minerals and 50 gas. On top of that you have the time lost if you make this a cheese build, and scvs that you are behind and 75 minerals for a refinery, though that you will be getting anyways in a tvt so I don't factor that in.
Meanwhile he will have lost maybe 100 minerals on marines. His scv production will be ahead of yours, and if he thinks you will be pursuing this further his bunker will ensure no more loss of marines and more dead marauders for you.
The scouting timing in tvt means that your scv will arrive at your opponents base before a standard rax finishes and he will have ample opportunity to prepare for it mentally and unit wise. If the player so needs he can pull scvs and surround and kill your marauder and not lose a single unit. If anything this build seems to do more damage to you than to your opponent.
I believe there is a reason why we never see this in TvTs.
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4scv>1 marauder. Pull back scv when low health.
/thread
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if by this point you're not smart enough to try this yourself and practice it a couple of times, you are probably not going to get convinced in the future, so whatever really, who got the message and seen the benefits playing it good, they others, let that be a disadvantage later on for yourself.
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On March 19 2011 17:47 JFO wrote:
if by this point you're not smart enough to try this yourself and practice it a couple of times, you are probably not going to get convinced in the future, so whatever really, who got the message and seen the benefits playing it good, they others, let that be a disadvantage later on for yourself.
I'm sure if you weren't angry and belligerent to everyone who carefully dissected and disproved your strat, and instead put together carefully constructed rebuttals of their arguments, you find a lot more open minds and constructive conversation. You have only yourself to blame for people not wanting to experiment with your build. I suggest in the future being more open to criticism if you plan on making more strategy posts.
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I know how to beat it.. he proxies all his raxes infront of your base and doesnt kill your scouting SCV. Using the SCV you can build your own proxy raxes near him while putting up like 3 bunkers at your ramp. Another way would be to do a 2 rax CC, but keep the CC in your base while adding more barracks. Put bunker at your ramp and wall a bit.
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Any experienced terran has most likely played a proxy rax marauder pressure in TvP back in the days when you could go rax before depot. Any Terran that has faced a semi-competent toss knows that the instant the toss gets it that he has to pull probes to fend it off you have lost and most likely lose to the counter. 1 lot 1 stalker and 3 probes > 2 marauder with concussive.
Same story goes here. 2 marines only barely lose to the marauder. But you need only 2 SCV hits on top of the marines to kill him. So imagine you are making your marines and are completely clueless what's about to happen because you did not scout AT ALL(!)... Your two marines see the single marauder coming and you go to your mineral line, pull 3-5 SCVs and order them into a straight attack on the marauder. Then you order your two marines to attack the marauder, place a bunker directly at your ramp and you are DONE!
You can be fancy and pull off wounded SCVs. It takes 5 hits for a marauder to kill an SCV. SCVs are faster than a marauder so they will get hits in and they are the closest attacking unit so they will be the auto target of the marauder. So for the maraudering player, he has to micro his marauder, but instead of using 's' or 'h' to stop and shot, he has to click a single marine every time in order to whittle down the marines. And he will STILL lose. Your second marauder will fare a little better if you have killed 1 marine and wounded the second. He will face 2 marines (1 wounded) and SCVs, but he won't kill them in time before the bunker is up where wounded SCVs can go.
As for the bunker block at the bottom of the ramp:
Marines are best for killing building SCVs and you can kill a single marauder with SCVs only if needed.
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On March 19 2011 15:31 Terin wrote:Here's a replay of it being used against me and me being terrible. http://www.mediafire.com/?zz9ar44k42egcuwIt didn't really hit me with the same aggravation that a, say, cannon rush or worker all-in would. Trying to work around this little compound at my natural was very different. I think there are a lot of things I could have done to win it, though.
Thanks for posting this. It was a good defense (until you just completely stopped making units lol), and had him basically dead.
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erm... Just to add on, in order to be fair.
Based on the game timing in the replay provided by JFO, I can say is perfect engagement timing to really create damage for your opponent. Where I'll give compliments to JFO and I personally feel that this strategy is workable provided that you are NOT SCOUTED by our opponent.
Fortunately based on the replay, JFO was not scouted for his proxy barracks and his opponent clearly is not an experienced Terran player as no bunker was built after noticing no production facility in the main, therefore JFO finds this strategy workable.
As commented by fellow users of this forum, which I must admit is true, that an experienced Terran player will never don't scout for cheese and the moment no production facility is found in the main base, bunker will be placed immediately without fail to defend against any possible rush and by doing so render the marauder rush by JFO useless.
In my opinion, this strategy is worth trying but preferably against not so experienced players, as fail rush usually results in losing the game, unless your opponent did something severely wrong, which turn the tide of the game.
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This is a good opening. I faced this recently on the ladder I reacted by laying a 2nd rax and a bunker so I didnt die, but I had to pull scvs and was definitely behind.
3850 master
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On March 19 2011 14:50 n3ac3y wrote:
Id like to chime in, and say that I've experimented with this build....
I like the build a lot and think it has a lot of potential, especially with the confusion it creates... I'm personally a huge fan as it has many transition options and puts opponents on defensive contain REALLY quick! :D
Stop hating and try it! when your opponent scouts it you can as a previous stated, cut maruader and switch to tech and reaper harass... This is a very fun build and I will definitely personally be throwing it into rotation...
I personally dont think it's cheese at all, since it is no way putting you all in.
uhhh, it creates confusion? a proxy rax is hardly confusion. any competent terran just builds a bunker or kills the building scv and it already fails. and then you have to either cancel the rax, or float it back home, meaning you cant make units, so yeah, you can die doing it, or just get super behind
it has no transitions. you cant really go bio, because you basically sacrifice a rax if your scv gets killed or you dont win and have to float it, so you just get behind. you can expand because you cant make any units...
maybe this works in like 1v1 obs map lol, where everyone is bronze and silver and doesn't punish you at all for doing really stupid stuff
why even bother making a proxying your first barracks when you could just build a barracks in your main, and proxy a second one. at least a 2rax build you can defend your base if it fails, and i would personally rather have 5 marines when they have 3, than 1 marauder when they have 3 marines, the comparison isnt even close, 5 marines is even better than 2 marauders,
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On March 19 2011 00:29 Phayze wrote:BratOK did this a TON in the beta vs T and vs P, it was eventually phased out. This is probably why you're finding it's strong, people haven't seen it in months. But it used to be quite common. 10 (maybe 8?)rax, 11 gas, 11 depot, 2 scvs in gas I think gets you everything you need (after you get gas for techlab) but I dont remember the specifics. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_Marauder_(vs._Terran)http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_Marauder_(vs._Protoss)The terran build explanation and reasoning I find is a bit wierd, I've always proxied it but anyways the build is still the same. I think after the third or 4th marauder you have enough minerals to drop a second barracks.
idk if youve heard, but 8 rax doesnt work anymore
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Why ask for the opinion of other players and then tell them they know shit about it? Unless you've won multiple high-level tournaments, which you most likely haven't, your're not in a position to make those assumptions.
Also, anyone taking this game in any way somewhat seriously should already have devoloped the "proper micro" and fast reactions needed to fend off this build. Good bunker placement can't be taken for granted i'll give you that.
You make it sound like this is some magical 100% win cheese.
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Funny.
Was up 2-0 in the finals of Cybercraft LAN tournament 5.0. Map #3 was crossfire, I decided to do this cuz why the hell not.
Raped him.
Was against a 3600 master with 170 bonus pool.
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This is a neat new idea for a proxy rax, but it is like any cheese/proxy. If its scouted, they will be fine. If it isn't, they will have to do something fancy against it. However, I think you're underestimating how easy it would be to hold for another Terran with 2-3 marines just by pulling 4-5 scvs to surround your marauder. He loses mining time, you lose production time on the rax and it will even out.
However I can see this being a pretty good cheese to use against a Protoss. Early on a Protoss relies on their ramp to defend marauder aggression, and depending on the exact time that you get the marauder in the ramp, its probably not going to be something they can deal with as easily. They will probably only have a zealot, with a stalker or sentry on the way. If its a sentry, you can micro against that same as against the zealot (as they'll only have 1 forcefield and you just have to make sure you don't get into a choke between their buildings), and if the second unit is a stalker, if the zealot is already dead you can probably straight up kill the stalker.
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can't build rax before depot, so this cheese is not effective against peeps who pull SCVs or just do safe openers.
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On March 20 2011 10:53 Pokebunny wrote:
Funny.
Was up 2-0 in the finals of Cybercraft LAN tournament 5.0. Map #3 was crossfire, I decided to do this cuz why the hell not.
Raped him.
Was against a 3600 master with 170 bonus pool. Could you upload the replay? Or for that matter, can anyone upload a replay of this working in which their opponent isn't just epic fail (aka scouting the rax going down and not reacting, or going gas before rax) as in the OP's replays?
There have been a couple people here saying that it has worked at a pretty high level of play, so I'd just like to be able to see it firsthand.
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I am only be platinum so take that as you will but I've been trying my own variation on this this and it seems pretty good so far. I'm trying to go 9 depot 9 rax 9 refinery 13 marauder, then cut scvs for good, then 15 concussive and depot and 19 for the second rax. The timings of the resources work great and I think its about 10-15 seconds faster then the OP, but cuts 2 extra SCVs and makes the second barracks slower.
The second marine seems to come out like the second my marauder gets there still so it doesn't really change anything there, but the second marauder gets out a bit quicker too. Could be enough extra time to stop the bunker though. Sadly my opponents haven't done a good enough bunker defense yet for me to try and see truly how good the build is. Will definitely post replay if it works against someone who responds in the way the detractors are saying they should.
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Hi what happens when the terran you're playing just pulls like 10 scvs and pushes you back to your proxy? bio is pretty easy to surround prestim and marauders are terrible against scvs
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Is the BM part of the build? 0_o
I think this could give alot of people problems but like any 'cheese' strat people will eventually figure it out.
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On March 20 2011 17:46 Hollywise wrote:IT'A FIREBAT
According to SC lore the marauder also has a flamethrower. Too bad they dont use it ingame
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I am going to definitely give this build a go.
It would have been better if the replays were ladder games, but two of those replays were against master level players so its fine.
JFO is right, you cant have more than 2 marines by the time your attack hits.
I also think that pulling own scv's would be a very good decision (what do you think JFO)
sadly this is pretty much a X'el Naga Caverns only build (where are you going the hide on scrap station?)
Also I think I saw someone accuse JFO of map hacking (facepalm), while the truth is; in my opinion; as he was playing a custom game, he just figured "Ill assume he spawned close pos. if not WHATEVA gg bye :D"
3450 master terran
edit:
To all those people who have said anything about a bunker:
A bunker will not do any good for the defender, unless it is right at the top of the ramp (which will be very unlikely in this case and timing)
You can basically pick off anything in the base and leave the bunker alone
You can kill the barracks or force a lift off, you can kill scv's, you can do almost anything
If you have about 4 marauders in his base, 2 techlab rax pumping out marauders, and he doesn't have a bunker on top of his ramp; he has lost the game unless he has a banshee in production which will be out soon (which you should not let happen)
Now what I have written sounds as if this is actually an unbeatable strategy, but I am just pointing out facts I know; I havent actually tried out this build.
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On March 21 2011 01:50 DestroManiak wrote:
I am going to definitely give this build a go.
It would have been better if the replays were ladder games, but two of those replays were against master level players so its fine.
JFO is right, you cant have more than 2 marines by the time your attack hits.
I also think that pulling own scv's would be a very good decision (what do you think JFO)
sadly this is pretty much a X'el Naga Caverns only build (where are you going the hide on scrap station?)
Also I think I saw someone accuse JFO of map hacking (facepalm), while the truth is; in my opinion; as he was playing a custom game, he just figured "Ill assume he spawned close pos. if not WHATEVA gg bye :D"
3450 master terran
edit:
To all those people who have said anything about a bunker:
A bunker will not do any good for the defender, unless it is right at the top of the ramp (which will be very unlikely in this case and timing)
You can basically pick off anything in the base and leave the bunker alone
You can kill the barracks or force a lift off, you can kill scv's, you can do almost anything
If you have about 4 marauders in his base, 2 techlab rax pumping out marauders, and he doesn't have a bunker on top of his ramp; he has lost the game unless he has a banshee in production which will be out soon (which you should not let happen)
Now what I have written sounds as if this is actually an unbeatable strategy, but I am just pointing out facts I know; I havent actually tried out this build.
This.
And yeah someone accused me of maphacking in Xel naga caverns... because I knew where my opponent spawned.. lol yeah I didn't even reply to that.
Anyway, this build has been proven to be viable against top master players, i've played them time and time again when they msg me about the build on battle.net, yes I have replays, will upload tonight Im home.
Anyone still not trying this out is missing out big time.
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On March 21 2011 03:50 JFO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:50 DestroManiak wrote:
I am going to definitely give this build a go.
It would have been better if the replays were ladder games, but two of those replays were against master level players so its fine.
JFO is right, you cant have more than 2 marines by the time your attack hits.
I also think that pulling own scv's would be a very good decision (what do you think JFO)
sadly this is pretty much a X'el Naga Caverns only build (where are you going the hide on scrap station?)
Also I think I saw someone accuse JFO of map hacking (facepalm), while the truth is; in my opinion; as he was playing a custom game, he just figured "Ill assume he spawned close pos. if not WHATEVA gg bye :D"
3450 master terran
edit:
To all those people who have said anything about a bunker:
A bunker will not do any good for the defender, unless it is right at the top of the ramp (which will be very unlikely in this case and timing)
You can basically pick off anything in the base and leave the bunker alone
You can kill the barracks or force a lift off, you can kill scv's, you can do almost anything
If you have about 4 marauders in his base, 2 techlab rax pumping out marauders, and he doesn't have a bunker on top of his ramp; he has lost the game unless he has a banshee in production which will be out soon (which you should not let happen)
Now what I have written sounds as if this is actually an unbeatable strategy, but I am just pointing out facts I know; I havent actually tried out this build. This. And yeah someone accused me of maphacking in Xel naga caverns... because I knew where my opponent spawned.. lol yeah I didn't even reply to that. Anyway, this build has been proven to be viable against top master players, i've played them time and time again when they msg me about the build on battle.net, yes I have replays, will upload tonight Im home. Anyone still not trying this out is missing out big time.
rofl
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Is it possible to pull your own SCVs to buffer the marauder?
Especially against Protoss, as all the naysayers to this strategy are only considering TvT.
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Some d-bagger tried this build on me a few days ago.
He some how got a rax with tech lag in the back of my base and build a bunker right beside it. As i was trying to take this trash out of my base he sent in marines into the front of my base, so i had to defend from two places.
I managed to kill the marines at the front while sacrificing a few works to the marauders. Then i built a bunker an stuck one marine in it as a bluff, Got a tank and with 5 -6 marines managed to kill the 3 or four marauders and the bunker causing him to lift off. I imidiatly got seige tech and whent to his front and forced him to stick to one base. After about 5-6 minutes i managed to kill about a third of his army with 2 tanks and a medivac which provided vision and then pushed into his base an won.
This strat is good and will make peopel crumble under the pressure, yet watch out if they start dropping you or getting helions into your minaral line. after they fend off the initial two marauders.
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Richman does this a lot in TvP (usually 2 rax's and all in's)
As far as TvT.. I still think its a bit riskier but I will be interested to see some replays.
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Does anyone have video of them pulling this off with very hard or insane AI?
i have been practicing and trying this build against the Computer before I give her a shot on the ladder. I dont have any Terran firends to practice with.... so I have just been using the AI..... but I can come sorta close,,, but in the end,,, i just get denied. has anyone else pulled this off??? im curious. video replay?
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Gave this a try on Shattered Temple in a Diamond vs Diamond TvT. Made the proxy in the middle of the map and eventually made second rax in my main. Worked like a charm, he pulled some scvs, but couldn't surround so he had no chance :-D
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Mercidia is right, + terrans can steal other peoples addons..
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Faced it about like 3 months ago. Was an easy win. You just need to pull off 4-5 SCV, and start micro'ing damaged marines. Once they are below half HP, send them back, and marauder won't be able to catch him up due to blocking SCVs. In the end the marauder will get pushed back to down of the ramp or get killed by getting blocked to the wall. If the barracks were inside your base, it was a little delayed cheese, which made it easier to defend against the first marauder. If it was build outside your base, after killing the first marauder, keep those 4-5 SCV in the middle of the ramp with marines, micro'ing them when the bunker is getting build-up. I don't really think this build works really well.
3480 Points Master Terran.
EDIT: Watched all of the replays, players response to this shit was HORRIBLE. Try this build against a decent player and then makes conclusions about it's effectiveness.
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I've saw this build in action during the Cybercraft LAN Finals. In the VTPokebunny vs. lGy match. it seemed fairly effective. I'll put up a replay as soon as the host i done with posting the replays online. I am the stream observer for the tournament. And though walling in hurt the effort to defend rush, it was effective definitely given that you have the micro skill.
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On March 21 2011 06:39 kwan_1984 wrote:
Does anyone have video of them pulling this off with very hard or insane AI?
i have been practicing and trying this build against the Computer before I give her a shot on the ladder. I dont have any Terran firends to practice with.... so I have just been using the AI..... but I can come sorta close,,, but in the end,,, i just get denied. has anyone else pulled this off??? im curious. video replay?
It's not that difficult against the very hard AI, and there's no point whatsoever doing it against insane, you'll never be able to pull it off because of the resource advantage it gets, making everything in the early game quite a bit faster than it should be.
If you're having trouble vs very hard, your timings are probably not clean. Scan back a little in the thread where I posted the exact order I was using, since that's the timing you have to use in order to get there before a third marine, while still having the ability to get double rax. I beat very hard 7 or 8 times in a row, but haven't tried it on ladder yet.
Since there have been a few requests for it, here's a rep vs Very Hard:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197205.jpg)
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On March 19 2011 00:38 JFO wrote:
Anyone saying people will scout it have really no knowledge of timing at all.
your enemy CANT react in any other way than making a bunker and putting his marines inside there.
if he does that, you can pick off marines and a couple of scvs even without micro, PERIOD.
you know how much life a marauder has? you know how much a fucking marine does to a marauder? nothing. go try it out.
I find it interesting that the way you are trying to persuade us to do this is to be rude and defensive against any rational criticism, that's a winning strat.
But in all seriousness, this CAN be countered by anyone who does know timing well, they see no rax in your base and immediate assumption should be that there is a proxy rax, they then throw down a bunker, put some repairing SCV's on it and bam stratagy countered.
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On March 21 2011 01:50 DestroManiak wrote:
edit:
To all those people who have said anything about a bunker:
A bunker will not do any good for the defender, unless it is right at the top of the ramp (which will be very unlikely in this case and timing)
This is the part I don't understand. If the defender is doing the extremely common practice of going rax + depot at the top of the ramp, it's trivial to wall off with a bunker. But I suppose if the defender is not already building near the ramp, it's quite hard to stop. I'm in a lower league and roughly 90% of my opponents build at their ramp to allow a bunker wall-off if necessary. Perhaps that's not common in high level TvT?
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On March 22 2011 13:08 bronzeterran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:50 DestroManiak wrote:
edit:
To all those people who have said anything about a bunker:
A bunker will not do any good for the defender, unless it is right at the top of the ramp (which will be very unlikely in this case and timing) This is the part I don't understand. If the defender is doing the extremely common practice of going rax + depot at the top of the ramp, it's trivial to wall off with a bunker. But I suppose if the defender is not already building near the ramp, it's quite hard to stop. I'm in a lower league and roughly 90% of my opponents build at their ramp to allow a bunker wall-off if necessary. Perhaps that's not common in high level TvT?
no one walls off at higher levels of tvt
they will have a single bunker at top of their ramps if they feel unsafe
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Why not just speed everything up a bit? This is a version of cheese after all. 9depot instead of 10, cut 1 scv and the chance that they will scout/get their bunker up in time is basically gone. Place the proxy rax better (not right in front of their ramp) and if you kill off the building scv while ignoring the now 1 marine you can force them to pull 4-5 scvs off for the 40+ seconds it takes to get a bunker up. I would say that puts you well ahead. You can probably kill off a few of the scvs as well.
Forget the concussive shells as that is assuming that your going to do significant damage which may not be true against a strong player. Build a bunker so that they cant push you back with just 1rax marines and a few scvs, cut the second barracks and proceed to banshee or blue flame drop to take advantage of your lead and the defending players confusion/scrambling.
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On March 23 2011 00:09 statikg wrote:
Why not just speed everything up a bit? This is a version of cheese after all. 9depot instead of 10, cut 1 scv and the chance that they will scout/get their bunker up in time is basically gone. Place the proxy rax better (not right in front of their ramp) and if you kill off the building scv while ignoring the now 1 marine you can force them to pull 4-5 scvs off for the 40+ seconds it takes to get a bunker up. I would say that puts you well ahead. You can probably kill off a few of the scvs as well.
Forget the concussive shells as that is assuming that your going to do significant damage which may not be true against a strong player. Build a bunker so that they cant push you back with just 1rax marines and a few scvs, cut the second barracks and proceed to banshee or blue flame drop to take advantage of your lead and the defending players confusion/scrambling.
Going to try this, may really mess up someone going 12 barracks. BF probably more dangerous as banshees easier to kill by marines
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scv pull wins as the marauder can't slow enough at once. And if you have to lift your proxy you will get outproduced damn hard.
Way more effectiv to open 1 raks reactor in your main and proxy a tech labbed near the opponent. Because of the you have to build 1 depot pure proxy raks is to easy to scout.
But its always a good idea to hide your barracks if you want to scare your opponent.
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Decided to give this a shot on scrap station. Timing was way off because the distance is so far, but this was quite possibly the funniest game I've played yet:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197590.jpg)
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So many players commenting about this strat being an auto-fail.
I've used this strat numerous times now tvt and it works great.
The fact is, no strats are 100% win guaranteed, duh. However there is a severe amount of confusion put on many terran players who never see this build.some players react so poorly that they blow their entire economy. Other players react in a way that allows you to win straight up.
Also most haters are ignoring the fact this build in itself contains opponents off the start. That is where the potential is. The propensity for your opponent to over commit defensively and lose the eco race. I am a mega fan of this build, it also is nice when you get a few quick wins tvt... instead of the you know: Siege/Viking slow waltz you deal with otherwise.
Edit - The title says "Cheese" but I completely disagree.. With good macro play this build will not require you to cut mineral time at all.. seriously.
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Like people have said, this is not a new strat and is very easily defended. Saying it's viable because of incompetent opponents is silly. Almost any kind of semi cheese/rush/proxy will work vs less skilled players.
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it may be a decent strat, but the way op responding to other made me not take it seriously untill i read posts by other people that like this as well. you did make your own thread look bad.
at this point though it does look like something viable on the ladder
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/9/94/Marauder_SC2_Cncpt1.jpg)
