[G] ZvZ Hatch first vs a 14/14

On March 09 2011 08:12 Airact wrote:
15hatchery into Roaches is pretty vulnerable to a contain against any Ling/Infestor-based play.

I have seen oh so many 15hatchers who got nothing out of the economy because I just Double-expanded due to them having Roaches and me having Infestors camping near my base and Lings moving around the map.

This is in High Diamond where people most likely won't go Infestors in like ever. Or they get them when I already am getting Brood Lords or attacking with 200/200 Ling/Baneling/Infestor.

Basically why people don't use Ling/Infestor more is because if I, as a Ling/Infestor player, don't scout you getting your own Infestation Pit to counter my Lings, I lose the game almost instantly unless I by some miracle, avoid your Fungals.

My tip for 15hatchers: If you are getting Ling contained, go Infestors immediately. If you don't, you are getting yourself outmacroed, hard.
You don't win the game immediately by doing this, but if your Infestation Pit is unscouted, you are pretty damn close.
Attacking with pure Roach isn't really an option because Fungals can hold Roaches kinda long and they still do damage. If you Burrow, I just Fungal the Burrowed group and surround with Lings.

For some this is obvious, but at least in High Diamond where I'm playing at, people don't go Infestors even when they 15hatched, went Roaches and knew I was going Ling/Infestor and that I had my 3rd before them.
Some I have killed with Mutas(on 3-4base...), some with 4base Brood Lord/Infestor which btw is ridiculously good if you get there and some I have just attacked with 200/200 Ling/Baneling/Infestor army.

That's all.

On March 09 2011 08:35 BaBaUTZ wrote:
I noticed u send a pretty early scout.

How do u react to an early pool (6-11 or something like this)

On March 09 2011 09:10 raid3n wrote:
Thanks so much for the contribution! Worth noting that your timings for hatch / pool / extractor were different in the replays from the post. Is 15/15/14 optimal?

On March 09 2011 09:16 CapnCDaWg wrote:
Great post, well written, etc.
Thanks a ton
Just curious, do you always transition straight to roach? What if your opponent does a roach opening, and it leads to a speedling/roach all-in that's becoming pretty popular lately (Off one base)?

On March 09 2011 09:56 TheMooseHeed wrote:
Wow this is great stuff! After trying for ages I thought 15 hatch was impossible to pull of consistently. Just wondering how you handle muta plays? Do you just get hydras if you suspect it? If so are there any signs for this?

On March 09 2011 10:21 roadrunner343 wrote:
Not to steal your thunder Blade, but to any one curious about holding hatch first, check out Mr. Bitter's stream. His 12 weeks with the pros series is amazing, and the portion with dimaga covers this exact topic. It was an amazing series.

Also, when Idra was on Mr. Bitter's show, he stated that going 14/14, 15/15, 16/16 etc... is silly. Rather than 14/14, you might as well hatch at 15 and pool at 14. You'll get the same amount of drones as 14/14, but your pool finish slightly faster due to the extra mining. Hope that helps some of you, and every zerg should check out Mr. Bitter.

On March 09 2011 10:51 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I hate to be negative nancy here, but you are advocating a blind 15hatch in zvz. At least, if you scout you don't mention it in your OP.

It's great that it's possible to hold 15hatch vs 14/14. What about if your opponent doesn't go 14/14 or hatch first? Not every zerg player does this.

Do you just hedge your bets and accept losses in the cases of early pool or hard aggression?

Do you have a replay of this on Xel'Naga Caverns?

On March 09 2011 13:59 curreh wrote:
Hey blade I tried the build just before against a masters zerg on sea who destroyed me lol, I defended from the early zerglings very well and he ended up just one base all-in'ing me and I couldn't hold, I think the mistake I made was teching to hydras and he attacked just as I was building them with his large force of roaches and speedlings off one base against my low number of slowlings and roaches off two bases, I think I didn't drone enough early on and was too scared and then didn't make enough units later on lol

http://www.multiupload.com/QGJVTSV4D6

There's the replay if you'd like to check it out! any advice would be amazingly helpful and appreciated : )

Oh and in my post before I asked a bunch of questions which i think you missed :D thanks!

oh and I was curious as to your thoughts on hatch first on scrap station? It seems very risky because the ramps so wide and the expansion is so far away, but I have seen Ret 15 hatch on it and hold against moonglade's ling/baneling attack, I think just mass speedling could punish you very hard on this map for going hatch first

Are you the Blade who played against Idra on Mr. Bitters 12 weeks with the pro's? :o

On March 09 2011 14:17 mothergoose729 wrote:
I have found that if you go hatch first, it is very, very hard to hold ling/banneling all ins. Especially if they skip speed. On maps with a long rush distance hatch first works just fine, but on XNC, most metrapolis positions, and cross positions on slag and ST I haven't found in my play that it is not possible. If you go ling expand into roach you can can sniff out things like bannelings and then get roaches out in time to counter bannelings if they go for a delayed all in.Would you disagree?

Also, and this is a stylistic choice perhaps, i much prefer to build lots and lots of speedlings off two base when I go hatch first and go for tons of pressure. If you take out the natural (almost always possible if they go roach or ling expand) you can come out ahead. Its a timings push with speed I hit at 6 minutes with about 20-26 speedlings. What is your thoughts on this?

Not to discredit your strategy, but in the game against me I was testing the effectiveness of +1 ling/bling against roaches. I think it would play out differently if I played standard or if you caught me at a later point (it was one of the first games I had tried +1).

On March 09 2011 14:31 curreh wrote:
Thanks so much for the response blade :D
There was a lot of mistakes in that replay, your advice was brilliant! When I was watching the replay I saw I had seen him move out with that huge army. but I didn't really notice it on the minimap when I was actually playing and continued to drone and died lol : (

A few thoughts though, in my replay it felt as though the denial of scouting and map control with the speedlings is very strong, but could be countered with overseers I guess, I'm just not too sure when to get the lair I might watch some of your replays to figure that out

Idra told Mr. Bitter to do exactly the same build that you posted here, but props to you to make a thread a about it because it is a really good build!

And you did really well vs Idra. It was a really good game! He got maybe one of the best ZvZ's in the world and you put up a really close fight

I would very much like to see a game where you hold a ling/banneling bust with hatch first, especially on XNC or a similar map. I when I play it is almost possible, but it is so difficult to micro around the bannelings.

On March 09 2011 14:34 ch33psh33p wrote:
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.

I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.

There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.

Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.

3.8k masters if it matters.

On March 10 2011 00:26 Alpina wrote:
One your replay I watched was vs. +1 speedling allin, and you hold it, because you saw that he was pumping mass lings. When I played my friend he made a macro hatch at his natural and went for +1 mass lings but didn't show them to me. Then he came with such a big amount of lings that even roaches on ramp where eaten^^.

What I want to say that I think the big weakness of this build is you don't know what your opponent is doing. If he kills your overlord near your natural with queen then you are even more blind. He may be just mass droning and you are carefully pumping roaches with just few drones.

On all maps you can scout an early pool with a 9 drone scout in time to throw down pool before hatch, except on typhon peaks. I don't think you can hold 10pools and such with hatch first and I'm not sure what to do on that map. blindly going 14/14 sucks because the map is so big and the nat is easily defendable, it's so hard to do any damage at all against a hatch first to pull even.

Idras build is kinda the same,

15 hatch
14 pool
17 gas
16 OL

RW when pool pops, Queen when u have money, you dont need that many lings (depends on scout)

save supply, and mins and gas for 5'ish roaches

stay on one gas for a while, make roaches w all your gas and drones w the rest. eventually take more gas and play normally,

I've yet to have success with a hatch first into roach but I'm not that great either. I usually sling expand in zvz, and never stop ling production unless I am completely denied. I often beat people that hatch first by just killing their hatchery because they don't have enough out to stop me as I'm producing non stop splings from 2 hatcheries. Then I back off because I'm then up a base and they are stuck with 1. I envy the people that can actually pull it off. I really need to practice this more.

On March 10 2011 04:46 revel wrote:
I've been struggling with ling all ins while my roach count is low and this should be a great resource against that.

As a side note, non-hatch first zergs seem to get really freaked out when they see hatch first. So many games they go all in trying to kill it. It seems like a better response would be to deny scouting with speedlings while mass droning and eventually expanding with good roach count. Do you think a 14/14 build is so far behind that to try and out macro hatch first is too much of an uphill battle?

Mr. Bitter's foundations ZvZ with Ret was a good topic on this; 15 hatch works because of your defenders advantage, you can always squeeze in a few drones in between cycles till he ends aggression. By that point, you have an expansion set up already and are now ahead. As long as you have good control (really use the ramp), you can stop any all ins.

On March 10 2011 05:44 CookieMaker wrote:
I REALLY love going hatch first 15/14/14 but on tons of maps in the current pool with open nats or long distances from nat-ramp (backwater, XC, meta, DQ) I lost the expohatch 80% of the time because you don't have enough roaches out in time to defend your ramp AND your nat hatch, especially if the other player goes for a fast sling mass.
What is your stragety for coping with a mass sling push into an open nat? I feel like you can't move out of your base with less than 9-10 roaches becasue 3 need to stay on the ramp and any less than 6 will get destroyed by a ling surround.

On March 10 2011 05:59 CookieMaker wrote:
I liked your replay pack but I felt that the mass sling push i mentioned is very situational. There are certainly some maps where your nat hatch is so far from your ramp that you HAVE to engage at some point outside your ramp or else the opponent can just non-stop attack the hatch. Do you have any other replays that show this being defended when the opponent is obviously just linging until your nat is down and planning to follow with a macrohatch or expo of their own?

On March 10 2011 06:43 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Thank you for posting this guide . I've seen Ret's opening a lot of times and I've been amazed at the effectiveness of it. But I was always too afraid, or more likely, too used to speedling/bling micro that I didn't feel the need to practice a whole different opening style. Im comfortable playing pool first openings but against a good hatch first opening they're just slightly behind.

Definitely going to try this on the ladder as soon as I can ladder lots again . I'm confident in my micro that I can hold stuff I just couldn't be bothered relearning a lot of timing windows again. I could help by making pictures from your replays and style your OP a bit so it looks a little bit better and send that version via PM if you desire. I'd love to help make this guide grow ^^.

Those were the ones

Backwater i think is simply impossible to hold the 15hatch because you're SO far from your ramp. DQ is the same. Slag isn't as bad for distance but the entire side is open so lings have free reign over your nat. I need to re-watch your scrap again then.

TY for this and keeping up with responses, you field questions quite well.

On March 10 2011 11:04 BlazedHydra wrote:
how does this build fare against 13 gas 12 pool super fast speedling timing pushes???

On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:
zvz is bo wars. it is.
here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win.
http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nk

here is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons.
http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p

On March 10 2011 13:14 falstag wrote:
Great idea and good replays.
Think you will be Grandmasters in 1.3 blade

On March 10 2011 13:31 RJ231 wrote:
Thx for the guide, clears up some confusion about holding various attacks when doing this build. Just curious though, I do 15h/14p quite a bit and sometimes I find I lose to players who do 14/14 and go for my expo. On some maps coming down off the ramp exposes you to a surround or a run by, I'm assuming this is just bad build order by me?

On March 10 2011 19:03 apalemorning wrote:
man, i can hold this vs almost everything easy. but on the ladder it seems i get my roaches, drone a bit. i find it really, really hard to scout what the zerg is doing. almost every zerg on the ladder goes 14g/14pool. so they get speed well before me, take their expo, and then im blind. i've literally been mass linged/baneling busted all-in'ed with this build. how do you adapt if he contains ur scout with speedlings? this ling/baneling comes before lair, its so frustrating. halp

I did a 15 hatch 15 poool 14 gas agaisnt a ling bling yesterday. I threw down the roach warren right att the time my pool finished, but somehow I didnt have any money left over queens or zerglings. Maybe because I researched the metabolic boost upgrade?
And I also think a 9 drone scout is quite an eco loss, but it's needed for this build :/

I don't feel the 9 drone scout's that big of a deal but yes you can not get that metabolic boost upgrade you need taht 100 minerals/gas for roaches speed has to be delayed a bit.

I do mine a little different:

15 hatch
14 pool
17 gas
16 ovie
*pool finishes*
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
20 ling
20 warren
(basically 1 queen at main, 6 lings, warren)
another overlord

inject with queen move to ramp
once roach warren finishes build as many roaches as possible

it's a little different as it takes gas later but for a few roaches - I don't feel you need that early gas, the more minerals is quite beneficial

Does anybody just skip gas for more drones, and then just drop down like 2-5 spines at your nat, and wall in with 2 Queens?

Great post man to be honest, I've been using this build with a few tweaks based around using baneling micro-management to weaken my opponents economy whilst massing my army, so that when the 'major battle' happens, I have a much easier time re-building my force.

I'm new here so i am having issues quoting people, but i see people asking about 6-11 pools if you scout them. simply put I think by the time you scout it out, your pool will probably be too far behind already to bother cancelling the hatch, and i find that chucking down a spine in the mineral line of your main and natural, as wlel as your 8 lings SHOULD be able to keep you alive long enough for the roaches to come out.

Once more, thanks for the post this build has actually helped me fix up a few nicks i had with my ZvZ!

On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:

i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.

by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10.

i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions.

feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz.

p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro.

On March 11 2011 05:11 majestouch wrote:

i tried to bate him into coming into my mineral line. its cella, hes a pro gamer--hes not bad,maybe the players you play are. as it was obvious he wouldn't come in nor could i get any mining done and also he did a later pool and would come out ahead econ it was POINTLESS to stay. i don't know what you're not comprehending about this. i know zvz in and out it is one of my strongest MUs atm. after about 20sec I just stopped microing and started typing--while typing i take time to micro, don't you--oh wait thats right I don't. I was typing when i just stopped microing! I know it is a hard concept to grasp. I came in here trying to support your cause by posting a replay where it worked and another that was just kinda funny and you want to heavily criticize me when the game was obviously lost.

On March 11 2011 05:18 majestouch wrote:


it is not that i'm offended but the game was lost and you're arguing that it wasn't when it was, which is what is making me angry because you're not comprehending that. Moreover, he tried to spine crawler me, so are you telling me to let it build? thats what i thought, it takes 4 drones to kill a spine--I put 8 on it because i needed to get it canceled/killed. time running around mineral lines is time not mining thus propelling him further ahead further exemplifying my point the game was lost. are you able to count or no? 6pool =/= 9pool. 6pool is fucking terrible in almost all cases it has no econ to back it up. cella did a 9pool which would put him ABOVE par with me economically. what are you not comprehending here?

On March 11 2011 08:15 TRod wrote:
Thanks Blade, gonna try this out on ladder tonight.

I'm still having the most trouble holding off 1 base roach +1 timing attacks(around 11-13 roaches push). I feel like such a newb. lol

On March 11 2011 10:54 obbob wrote:
Is this build viable against 14/14 on Scrap Station (or any future map withsimiliar wide ramps)?

On March 11 2011 11:27 Chinesewonder wrote:
Subbed. Thanks alot for this. But I'm wondering if you use this for every map? Or are there some maps that you prefer to use 14 gas 14 pool? Because some maps like backwater gulch or ones where your expo is far off from your ramp just seem like suicide to hatch first. Your thoughts?

On March 12 2011 00:40 sylverfyre wrote:

Also ret prefers hatch first.

One warning though - it's much much harder to hatch first on scrap station, because of the extra wide ramp (lol blocking that ramp takes like 8 roaches?) and the long distance between the ramp and the natural. Not saying it's impossible, but I personally haven't had any success doing it, and have had success going speedling expand.

Granted, even after watching Ret and Dimaga on MrBitter's show, ZVZ is still my worst matchup.

Dimaga strongly recommends scouting with the 9th drone to stop early pool shenannigans. Ret doesn't like scouting with a drone at all. That 9th drone does get their with plenty of time to toss down the pool first instead of hatch first, which is all you need to do to stop a 9pool.

Also note that the hatch firsting player, even if they don't actually get to mine from their nat for a while, THAT'S FINE. You still get the advantage of extra larva, which is huge. Leave the drones in your main until it's safe to transfer to nat, even if your main is a little oversaturated. Better to do imperfect mining than to lose drones.

On March 12 2011 04:35 Numy wrote:
I've been toying around with 15hatch a lot on ladder and in practice but I've been going a speedling opening to still try maintain map control. With a roach opening how do you respond to a personal that just pumps drones and expands while getting his roach den up later? Will you just pump enough roaches to completely shut down speedlings then go back to drone production while being defensive or is there some way to pressure him?

On March 12 2011 07:19 obbob wrote:
I know it's off topic slightly but if you find out he's going 15 hatch as well, do you prefer to open up with speedlings or roaches?

I've been advised to open speedling to harass the hatchery and get map control against a 15 hatch -> roach opener. However, I noticed recently many players are now delaying transferring drones to the expansion until they have enough roaches to cover both the ramp and the expo, so my speedlings aren't doing much except damaging the hatch.

On March 12 2011 07:19 MaxwelsDemoN wrote:
Ok, if you have the time I have a few questions.

First, I watched the replay versus the ling/roach speed all in a couple, times and from your perspective. I am curious if I am missing any indicators for why you starting droning about making your first 6 roaches. I know you only scouted the 14/14, and then you only saw 8 lings pressuring your base. Was it just the fact that he wasn't reinforcing with more lings? I was just wondering because sometimes I have trouble if they are simply turtling in their base with 6-8 lings on their ramp (to deny scouting), and massing speedlings in their base. Obviously droning there was a good choice as he was teching to speed roaches.

Second, I guess a similar question, if you see them taking their expo I am always worried about making too many units. With speedlings they have map control, and I would like to think I could use my roaches (if I overmake them) to pressure him into making more units, but I don't feel I can move out with a small amount as the threat of counterattacks is too high. It seemed like, (for example in the xel naga game) , you just made a mix of drones and roaches after scouting expo.

Finally, do you feel some of the maps make it too hard to do? The game on scrap station was good, I thought that might be very hard to hold versus a mass ling style, rather than the ling/bling he did, as the ramp is so large and the expo is pretty far from the main.

Thanks for you help, I found the replays very useful!

On March 12 2011 23:21 leo23 wrote:
As a 3200 Masters zerg I find my ZvZ to be quite an inconsistent match-up for me. This post has opened my eyes as I now venture through the hatch first around the ladder and win many ZvZ's. So blade55555 I would like to thank you for that. Now, I have a couple of questions regarding the different strategies I have faced around the ladder and have sadly fall to them.

1. What is the correct reaction to a 1-base roach speed/burrow build?

2. If my opponent goes hatch first as well, what are some clear indicators that he is trying to ling all in me besides the lack of drones?

3. In regards to many popular roach expands should I drone up and spine crawler up or should I make my own roaches.

Thank you in advance blade55555

On March 13 2011 19:11 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Safe to say, I'm stopping this 15 hatch bussiness.

Nobody has the decency to go 14/14 against me anymore. They all just go for some early pool which results in my pool being too late and dying. I can't be bothered turning my best match up with 80% winrate into a 20% winrate rush defense for 25 games until I finally get the timings, positions and answers right. I'll leave the 15 hatch build to the pacifists that know how to not rage when they lose more drones during the defense of a rush than gaining them from going hatch first.

On March 14 2011 11:12 DImported wrote:
The game against VTZerker on scrap that you use to show your 15 hatch against 14/14, Zerker went with a late 14 gas, which delayed his baneling nest by quite a bit. Then after his banelings finished, he tried to send them against your zerglings. He should have gone for the drone line instead. I'm not convinced this is the best replay to show your build.

Against Inure on lost temple, he was actually ahead in workers and had map control with his speedlings at around 7:20. He made a late roach warren and didn't even use the baneling nest he put up. He failed in that game because he kept making speedlings while you were contained. They should have been drones. You were able to keep up in harvester count because of that. That was really Inure's game to win. Had he not made those extra speedlings, he would have been ahead on upgrades with a second expansion finished and running when you moved out.

Against Spanishwa, it was a 14gas/14 pool into +1 lings where the real attack only came after +1 finished. This gave you plenty of time to pump roaches. After the aggression dies down around 10:20, he continued to mass lings against a roach army, even while maintaining map control and an even drone count. From there it turns into a roach macro game, where you win because of Spanishwa's poor decision making.

Versus the Korean zerg Doksa on shattered temple, Doksa decided to tech to lair for burrow and roach speed. That gave you too much time to let you safely drone and produce roaches of your own.

The Korean zerg on shakuras could have done a lot more with those banelings. Not letting his banelings detonate on your workers was a huge mistake. In any case, it shows the correct response to an early pool and baneling nest. The rest of the game isn't really worth mentioning since it turns into a standard zvz.

The game vs the 7 pooler just shows how to defend an early pool, nothing special.

To summarise my thoughts, I don't feel that opponents in the 14gas/14pool replays were executing their builds properly or following through to the mid-game well. In almost all of these replays, you end up being contained and have no map control. In this situation, the person with map control should be the one to get ahead in worker count. However, they continue to be aggressive when it is clear that your expansion is defendable.

Me and my friend tried this out but we found that if the person doing the speedling rush just attacks the hatch each time the roaches back off we could actually take down the hatch or bait the roaches into making an opening. Any thoughts on this?

On March 14 2011 14:00 Grezzz wrote:
My main question is about your gas timing.

What do you think the advantage of getting such an early gas is compared to taking a later gas. My standard hatch first ZvZ build is 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas. This seems to time out quite nicely so that as soon as the roach warren pops I can make 5 fast roaches.

What is your motivation behind taking such a fast gas, how do you use your gas so early without being stuck for minerals?

Just so you know, I'm a masters zerg who doesn't ladder a lot however I have beaten numerous 3.5-3.6k zerg players in tournaments.

15 Hatch is the way to go, watch Dimaga.

http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4853725/

Dimaga shows how and why 15 hatch is the way to go.

On March 14 2011 23:19 Discount_Glowstix wrote:
Great post!
I didnt get to watch all your replays (going to work), but is it over when your opponents get speed fast, and start pumping lings?? i like opening 15/14 as i feel its solid and can hold almost anything, but ive fallen victim to masss lings where my opponent cuts drone production and goes all in with around 30 lings.

I know i shouldve scouted better and shouldve known it but, i didnt realize that he was masssing lings. his push came around 4:30~4:45.

EDIT: nvm ill watch the 6-11 pool replay, then repost if my questions arent answered. thanks!

Hey Blade, thank you so much for this work...it helps a
lot. I have been working on the most economical way to hold
off 14/14 with hatch first as well.

How do you respond to a drone blocking your expansion? Do you lay down your pool or just send a second drone to help?

Thank you!

On March 24 2011 02:44 Callous wrote:
Is this still viable due to 1.3? I like going hatch first a lot.
Also, after I hold off the aggression, and I still don't see an expansion, would it be wise to make more roaches or to drone? I think droning may be stupid since he won't be doing that and will likely commit to an all-in. Just don't know whether to get ahead or to just go kill him.

On March 26 2011 14:32 Uhh Negative wrote:
I feel like there's no point to hatch first if your econ is going to be terrible and not have enough drones to support two bases anyway. Why not just 14/14 into like a 20 to 25 expand while putting on pressure with lings. You'll have a queen earlier and probably more drones + maybe map control. Hatch first honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me except maybe ZvT. An earlier queen gives you as much econ advantage as a super early hatch. It seems all risk and no reward.

if you hatch first you will have the eco advantage because all the time you are waiting for ur 2nd hatch to come up i'm double injecting and massing drones. If you pressure i have lings/blings spines and queens. I just lolz to mass eco advantage.

Basically i don't roach early because they are useless except holding the ramp. The can't move out in small numbers, and you dont have econ to carry them yet. + the money on the warren is better spent on a spine and a queen and the gas put towards things like upgrades and layer. the 3rd queen can show away any close OV's so you can do what you want and spread creep to your 3rd to be.

I don't like units that are useless, and roaches are useless in small numbers. speed lings can at least scout or make banes... I'll all about 1 to many when I can.

On March 26 2011 14:46 ktimekiller wrote:
Admitedly, I have not watched the replays, but I have a question

I do an EXACT same build except where I get the gas MUCH MUCH later.

However, I find that even with me getting the gas MUCH later, I am still mineral starved rather than gas starved.

How does your super early gas match up to your low mineral income to produce enough roaches?

On March 26 2011 18:38 Talaf wrote:
Hi!

I used this strat to great effect. My main question is, how do you react to another hatch first? I'm not good nor do I ladder alot, I mainly play customs with friends who are not zergs, so it would be the matchup I'm the worst at. On ladder, everyone goes speedlings (and all in on my hatch first) so I won alot, but during a cw my opponent went hatch first and he out eco'd me early the first game, and speedling crushed me the second when I tried to drone more. When watching the replays, he had superior economy both games (due to the fact that his queens were up way earlier than mine probably).

I seem to not be able to "feel" his economy on hatch first vs hatch first. Should I double queen early and make defensive banelings instead of an early roach warren (then quickly transition into roaches while droning a bit and scouting for all ins)?

On March 26 2011 18:58 Talaf wrote:
Wow thanks a lot for the quick response ^_^ And I'm happy cause that's not far from what I was thinking, my game sense must be getting better :D Would you make the bnest before the speedling upgrade?

That's pretty interesting. A lot of the time hatch first vs hatch first goes to ling/baneling and stays there, like a 2 base version of a 14/14 vs 14/14. This seems like a good way to get out of it and transition into a midgame roach/infestor

On March 28 2011 16:12 NeonFox wrote:
What variant do you do on tal darim altar and scrap station? the ramps there are too big to block with a queen and two roaches.

Edit: Especially on Tal Darim, I watched your replay on scrap.
On TD the ramps are huge and he has a lot of paths into your base, I feel like you need more mobility.

On April 02 2011 17:16 Alpina wrote:
This build is very good but few things:

1. How I should defend for example on Tal darim altar if he just runs with speedlings though the roaches and focus fires all drones on main? I of course move drones to expansion but he kills few, then when I come to main he runs to expansion and then it's like 5 drones for me and I can't do anything vs. that.

2. What opening you are doing when opponent is going expansion too? Banelings or roaches?

On April 03 2011 09:51 apalemorning wrote:
on scrap and tal darim u just 15 hatch into speedling. must safer unless you're really good at holding with roaches (im not)

Nice guide! I've been looking to do more FE openings ZvZ, but it's felt too risky. This will definitely help

On April 03 2011 18:01 T0fuuu wrote:
You are a saint. zvz just got a bit less retarded.

On April 03 2011 19:36 sylverfyre wrote:

Get to ultras? They ignore the fungal stun - though that tends to be a "next step" for me when we're going back and forth in 200/200 roach infestor battles.

Burrow helps a ton vs infestor - the regen really messes up the damage.

I wanna discuss this further:
The advantage 14/14 has over this kind of roach defense is that with a much faster speed one has a lot easier time scouting, and with hatch first you are forced to make some blind roaches that may turn out to be useless giving time to catch up in economy.
The way korean zergs of the nestea school play this is massing slow roaches without lair and going for a timing attack that hits before the 14/14 player can get his own roach tech kickin in (or, forcing him to get roaches before closing the economic gap).

In my experience though you can't do this on the new larger maps, because they have enough time to spine up and stall while your roaches move their slow asses across the map. To me it seems that, paradoxically, this makes 14/14 stronger than hatch first on large maps. Have you found a hatch first opening that is
a) safe against pool first and,
b) can consistently kill a pool first build?

because if there is none, pool first seems to be less fragile and easier to play without any real weakness.

On April 22 2011 23:50 Chaos_SC2 wrote:
would you re-upload the replays? I cant download them...

Quite a great post, it's basically what I do every zvz too. I also got the idea that if u go straight to roaches, u have enough time to build them against a 14/14 ling allin/expand.

I have a masters friend who loves early game ling aggression, it took me around 10 games of getting ran over until I figured out how the timing works for the pure roach defense, but all in all, this definitely works.

From there, if he expanded, I normally drone up behind a couple roaches, if he didn't, then I still drone a bit and get more roaches to defend against the eventual allin.

Normally I try to end the game with +1 +1 speed roach, which works great now even with infesters on the field....Becuz by the time I atk there will only be 2/3 fungals, and +1 +1 roaches just rapes 0/0 roaches....

@blade: what do you think about a hydra/roach timing push before infestors come out? hydra is the fastest lair tech, while infestors are the slowest. i feel as if there exists a timing for 10 or so hydras to crush a player trying to invest in infestor tech.

i was thinking about this for awhile, and recently saw a zvz by idra that made me think there's some merit to it:

http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/283858108

it's the very first game in the VOD.

Is this considered to be automatically better than 14/14 if you hold properly? I still prefer 14/14 to contain and then I take my natural at 21. Against fast hatch I can sometimes force a cancel but it seems like I can always prevent him from using his hatch until mine has completed. He's also waiting for my aggression to stop which means I get to drone up while he's trying to confirm what I'm doing.

Am I doing it wrong?

On April 23 2011 05:27 Moosegills wrote:
I'm curious to why you gas at 14, i feel that you don't need it that early.
I've been able to hold off all 14/14's (except metal close positions) with 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas.
Have you tried going that style or have you always got the pool and gas at 14?

On April 23 2011 05:31 blade55555 wrote:


I don't anymore, I get it once I get it on 17 supply now. I thought I updated the OP but might have forgotten.

On April 23 2011 23:50 Chaos_SC2 wrote:
Um...I'm now looking into the replays. What I want to say is that I'm still a new zerg player(just bought the game a few days ago...) I dont think I can handle it...with an extremely low apm...(~30 oops), but, as you know, there are a number of bronze/silver zerg players do early pool...Should I sacrifice my points to try holding it with FE, for the sake of getting promoted to gold, whatever, one day? Or I should go 14/14, maybe 6-10 pool to fight against them...plz help...How can I increase my APM...OMG...frustrated now...

On April 24 2011 03:06 khaosis wrote:
Great writeup, and I'll definitely give it a shot in my next practice game/ ladder match. However, I personally find it difficult to hold off early zerg aggression in ZvZ. Either I'm not playing it right, but at times the mass zerglings seem to overwhelm me. I think it's key obviously to scout and decide the appropriate amount of lings or drones that need to produced.

On April 30 2011 02:56 SacredSystem wrote:
i dont know if this has been stated but ive had mobility problems when using a roach hydra army, if my opponent goes muta i find it hard to leave my base because then the faster muta can loot my base, i understand that a good creep highway will make my army faster and thus reduce the mobility issues, but what ratio of static defenses(queens included) would you recomend to defend from the mutas,

btw thanks for the thread i juat switched to zerg and zvz seems to be my hardest match up, more so than toss and terran
it also seems to be that im playing against more zerg opponents now that i switched then i ever did when playing as toss

On April 30 2011 03:49 SacredSystem wrote:
ja i just switched to zerg and my understanding is that teching to mutas is inferior to hydras, because hydras have greater range, cost less, although hydras have less hp, and a hydra den takes less time to build, yet i lose to mutas all the time,
it either seems to be mutas or speedling all ins, i lose nearly every zvz and somehow i end up playing literaly 5 zvzs in a row

On April 30 2011 06:34 SqueamishCow wrote:
Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.

On April 30 2011 06:59 Endymion wrote:
I think that it's important to note that it's entirely possible to do a 16 hatch in zvz on certain maps, while defending with only like 10 lings 4 queens and 4-5 spine crawlers (with proper sim city of course, an evo chamber is required most of the time to help out). Anyways, I've been playing using Spanishwa's hatch first mentality, and it's been working out extremely well as of thus far. You can delay your gas/lings so much that your opponent will be so far behind in his initial attack that he won't be able to recover, making a 14gas/14pool esentially all in. The only problem that I'm having with the build at this point is some 8 pools (usually remedied by canceling the hatch, throwing a pool down, and microing), and doing it on some maps (tal'darim and xel in particular are obnoxious to do it on).

Because of the wider chokes on these maps, you either have to commit more to lings or queens, or build more static defenses like evo chambers or spines (both routes cutting severely into your economic advantage). The whole idea of the build through my eyes is cut gas until you're basically fully saturated off of two bases then explode into gas production with infestor/roach/upgrades, which ends up leaving you ahead by 20-30 supply at like 10 or 9 minutes in if you didn't take a lot of damage from early pressure. The major difference between our builds being the delaying of gas, of course, because you can use the larva that you use for roaches on drones instead, because the roaches aren't really necessary.

ive been trying to just go roach because its less micro intensive, you can just hold the ramp (its something ive seen moonglade do) , the problem is i havent quite figured out the timings, but i kinda figured id have to tech to roach eventually to make up the bulk of my army, plus roaches are more versatile in zvz then banes (imo),
would using hydras in the bulk of my army work out or would they lose to a roach army?

On April 30 2011 06:34 SqueamishCow wrote:
Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.

On May 01 2011 04:44 skypig wrote:
How does this build work on maps with wide entrances to the main (i.e. Tal'Darim Altar and Scrap Station)? I have had trouble getting enough roaches/queens to block my main entrance in cases like these, although I may have to try it a few more times to perfect my micro. Do you have any advice for dealing with wider-than-normal entrances to the main using this build, or is it best to go speedling/bling in cases like this?

On May 14 2011 22:11 QQAura wrote:
I've been using this build on ladder and have great success with it. Thanks alot blade!

On May 31 2011 01:07 PD wrote:
I know I post to answer an old OP, and it has probably been mentioned, anyways, if I scout a 15h when I 15h I get a very fast gas and delay my pool so that I get speed as soon as it finishes, skipping roaches for the time being. The point is to keep him blind with speedlings so that I can either speedling all-in if he does not commit to defense, or econ up and gain an advantage due to his early warren if he gets enough roaches.

At least this is my observation around 900-1000 master on yurop servers.

On May 30 2011 17:19 Indrium wrote:
Hey blade, obviously I love all your guides because I repeatedly say so. However, I've been having a lot of trouble against a 14/14 where they put a spine in my natural. What do you recommend?

Much love <3

On May 31 2011 02:36 PD wrote:


I do the same, some lings and some banelings. With map control I mean I have the threat of a ling backstab to force his more expensive roach army to remain passive should he go for roaches. if he doesn't go for roaches I just play defensive baneling.

Bottom line of my argument is I think you should get the gas faster and the pool slightly later vs 15h than you propose.

On May 31 2011 03:11 jdseemoreglass wrote:
To be completely honest, I think hatch first is one of the worst things you can do in ZvZ. I used to do it religiously until I realized the problems with it..

The primary problem is that you are forced into a defensive game and you give up all map control. You really have to be able to scout your opponent consistently in this matchup to have any chance of winning.

Your pool first opponent can simply expand right away, and get NO WARREN and NO ROACHES. They can pump drones and be perfectly safe. Obviously a roach player will not be able to attack or pressure because speedlings will wreck his base. Even though you get a hatch down faster, you actually end up behind in macro because you have to commit to defense while your opponent does not. Hell, a pool first player could even double expand. How can you stop it?



See this is the problem right here, as I see it. You are forced to make defensive units and your opponent isn't. Watching Idra vs. Sen is a very good example of this problem, and why an early hatch is a liability instead of an advantage.

On June 19 2011 04:29 Trakky wrote:
Whenever I use this build against 14/14, it's so hard to hold off his attack even with the burst of 5+ roaches mentioned in this guide because he would just run to main to nat to main and keep going and sniping drones while my slow roaches try to keep up. I've tried to handle it by just moving all my drones at nat to main, but it's still difficult to handle because he would have some lings atking my nat and lings would still dance around in my main. Any tips?

On June 19 2011 05:54 Trakky wrote:
So right when pool pops, I get roach warren asap then queen then 6 lings. Or do I go for lings before queens? But when lings do get in before I can make the wall, I have to abort the wall plan because then they'll be lings inside my main while I wait for the roaches to come out.

On June 20 2011 05:04 Trakky wrote:
Also, when do you get your ling speed? Against 15 hatch and 14/14? I have no idea when to get it because I need gas for upgrades/lair/roach speed which you mentioned.

On June 20 2011 06:54 CcCFlu wrote:
I used 2 play like that as well blade
But trust me getting ling speed is worth it
U always have 2 play defensively
With speed u can punish a zerg for being greedy soooo easily
Just throw down roach warren and bling nest and go kill him

If possible, please upload more replays, some against 14/14, and some in late game. Any tips on when to transition from mass roaches into broodlords? (when 4th is running?)

On June 20 2011 14:48 Trakky wrote:
I thought you said in the guide to get +1 before lair, then when +1 is almost done throw down a 2nd evo and when you start +2/+1, start infestor pit, so how would hive be possible at 2/2?
"I would start hive when you start 2/2. I will upload more replays but won't be up till tomorrow as I am going to be at work soon."

On June 20 2011 17:07 guitarizt wrote:



Idk I saw destiny lose to idra on scrap station when idra killed him with lings and he tried to go roach. Also losira beat machine on tal darim at mlg columbus when machine went hatch first and losira went one base sling bane. I'm not sure if it's possible to hold on those maps? I have such a hard time going hatch first and knowing how many units to make from their drone count. I'm much better going sling bane or sling expand and knowing how much damage I have to do to even the game out. I know ret idra and sheth hatch first quite frequently but nothing feels right when I do it and I frequently die to ling allins. Is it bad to favor a bane nest before roach warren just for defense against ling allins? On ladder I feel like I need to keep making lings until I can make some banes for defense just to be safe if they keep making lings. Is this correct or incorrect?