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On November 05 2011 19:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 19:20 Alpina wrote:I have a question  in zvz i always go 14/14 because it's safest imo, and usually opponent goes for hatch first, so my question is it worth doing some sort of fast baneling agression with lings on very low drone count (15), or not? Considering that opponent has good defense and not gone into roaches, cause obviously i don't want to use banelings when he got roaches. Sometimes i kill him right away, but i feel it's due to his poor defense. It is due to his poor defense if you kill him with 14/14 and he hatch firsts. Its possible to kill them but you have to rely on them being greedy or fucking up. If I were you and you 14/14 I would just 21 expand, drone and just play it safe no reason to do an all in unless you feel your opponent is better then your or something. But if he has good defense you are giving your opponent a free win if you try a baneling bust.
ok, thanks, so it seems it's just better always drone hard after 14/14 and get advantage on the fact that opponent must produce spines and units to defend an attack which is not even coming.
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On November 05 2011 20:59 dTox wrote:
I always 14g/14p in ZvZ, mid-high master. Superior build IMHO. Look at all the stuff you're forced to make to defend aggression that might not ever even come. I make a handful of lings, run them around your base, maintain map control and scare you into making useless units while i drone past you with a 20 hatch. You cant even move out until you have ling speed. Good Zergs will make your 15h redundant.
Ah yet Idra/Ret let alone most pro's will hatch first even if the opponent 14/14 (not 100% of the time because that would be bad they'd lose to a 10 pool drone all in if thats all they did was hatch first). A good zerg will make it so that 14/14 doesn't over react. It takes a lot of practice to not over react to certian things but once you get it down you will not fall behind. And your map control with lings doesn't matter I will still see if you are moving out of your base with an army or not due to overlords. I will also still see your drone count due to my overlord at the back of your base checking your drone count which a queen can not kill, damage but then it goes away and I already know how many drones you have to know if you are all inning and what not.
In short I disagree, but 14/14 is easier to get good with then hatch first which is why most players do that
On November 05 2011 19:50 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 19:23 blade55555 wrote:On November 05 2011 19:20 Alpina wrote:I have a question in zvz i always go 14/14 because it's safest imo, and usually opponent goes for hatch first, so my question is it worth doing some sort of fast baneling agression with lings on very low drone count (15), or not? Considering that opponent has good defense and not gone into roaches, cause obviously i don't want to use banelings when he got roaches. Sometimes i kill him right away, but i feel it's due to his poor defense. It is due to his poor defense if you kill him with 14/14 and he hatch firsts. Its possible to kill them but you have to rely on them being greedy or fucking up. If I were you and you 14/14 I would just 21 expand, drone and just play it safe no reason to do an all in unless you feel your opponent is better then your or something. But if he has good defense you are giving your opponent a free win if you try a baneling bust. ok, thanks, so it seems it's just better always drone hard after 14/14 and get advantage on the fact that opponent must produce spines and units to defend an attack which is not even coming.
You don't want to drone to hard, if you drone to hard you will die to a ling all in, roach/ling all in if they decide to do this. You still have to play safe (I know some zergs if they dont' see many lings on the field all in).
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Just wanna say thanks for this guide, you made ZvZ much more bearable for me.
ZvZ was the one match up that I hated more than any other (even more than my ZvP which is abysmal). I hated ZvZ so much that I was ready to switch to Terran permanently just to avoid it.
When I first started messing around with your build I was skeptical of it. I even made some posts in this thread questioning whether or not it really gave an advantage. Turns out, I just sucked at executing the build.
Now that I have it down, and I think I really do have the timings "just so," I can see the power here and I haven't lost a ZvZ in days. More importantly, any games I lost prior were at least interesting. I love this build. Bane wars made me want to pull out my hair - this roach expand actually feels like a game - and makes the bane wars that are inevitable on some maps/spawns far more tolerable because they're so uncommon as to be a reasonable pleasant change of pace.
TL:DR: Thanks. I love this build. It works like a charm. I love playing this style, holding off pressure, and every wave of lings sent to break me is just a message telling me I'm further and further ahead - and that's a great feeling in this game.
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Thanks, I do want to state this took a lot of practice from me in general so I imagine its the same with everyone. Knowing the different situations, not over reacting, droning, etc. Really does take a lot of practice you will not win with this build immediately (unless he all ins or something) for the most part you will lose to some silly things until you know the timings and what not .
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But what about holding 15 hatch without roaches? Just played on tal darim, went 16 hatch 15 gas 15 pool and went into speedling baneling. Opponent opened with 14/14. I got 2 spines in time when his first 15 lings 2 blings push came and I defended it, but appears at the time he was pushing he was droning hard and after the push I was on 15 drones and he on 25. So it's pretty much game over. Is it just not possible to not fall behind, or I made something wrong?
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On November 06 2011 05:24 Alpina wrote:
But what about holding 15 hatch without roaches? Just played on tal darim, went 16 hatch 15 gas 15 pool and went into speedling baneling. Opponent opened with 14/14. I got 2 spines in time when his first 15 lings 2 blings push came and I defended it, but appears at the time he was pushing he was droning hard and after the push I was on 15 drones and he on 25. So it's pretty much game over. Is it just not possible to not fall behind, or I made something wrong?
You need either banelings or roaches yourself and you cant lose drones at all. 2 spines seems like a complete overreaction and you lost the game be use of it.
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On November 06 2011 05:24 Alpina wrote:
But what about holding 15 hatch without roaches? Just played on tal darim, went 16 hatch 15 gas 15 pool and went into speedling baneling. Opponent opened with 14/14. I got 2 spines in time when his first 15 lings 2 blings push came and I defended it, but appears at the time he was pushing he was droning hard and after the push I was on 15 drones and he on 25. So it's pretty much game over. Is it just not possible to not fall behind, or I made something wrong?
Sounds like you over reacted with 2 spines. Taldarim is the only map I would do a baneling expand, but I would go more baneling heavy then ling heavy and still drone if you see him all inning. I mean if you see him 14/14/21 expand you dont' need 2 spines and a bunch of lings thats over reacting.
If he's on 1 base not taking his expansion then the reaction you did is not over reacting. In short you over reacted to his ling pressure especially if he only made 2 blings xD.
What I do with baneling expand is baneling nest before speed, get a couple banelings while droning (unless I see him making a ton of lings or staying 1 base).
On other maps I wouldn't do ling/bane expand but thats because I hate ling/bane wars
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I see. Well I can never know how many banelings are comming, he made 2 cause he was going straight to mutas but if he made a good amount of baneling then dunno if 1 spine would defended. But yeah baneling nest vs. ling speed is a good idea. Thx!
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On November 05 2011 18:18 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 18:05 apalemorning wrote:On November 05 2011 17:45 blade55555 wrote:On November 05 2011 17:43 apalemorning wrote:
so, with the new muta builds becoming popular in zvz would you advise going mutas yourself or continue roach production into hydra/roach?
its nearly impossible to take a third if he makes 7-8 mutas, and you can't kill him either cuz he'll have 5 spines + match drone production.
it seems making 7-8 mutas is a good idea to deny a third, then take a third yourself. are you going to incorporate mutas in this build? I am actually going to be writing a guide zvz on muta's, Personally I am using them alot and finding them well awesome. I think its (hopefully) going to be the standard in zvz soon. I will be making a guide on that very soon for the muta play but I would go muta's . eta on muta guide? i'd love it so much ._. Was going to do it today but got lazy so going to try for tomorrow, this week guaranteed though if not tomorrow :D
i eagerly await <33333333333333333333333333
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would this hold vs TangSC's zvz hyper aggression? i feel like with his style, it forces a 15 hatcher to produce not enough drones to make the early hatch effective, because of you needing to respond with spines or slowlings and roaches. and his style wouldn't be behind in econ, as he does explain that he drones behind attacks and will easily transition to roaches if needed.
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works on larger maps on smaller maps ur in trouble.
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On November 14 2011 11:04 TangFish wrote:
would this hold vs TangSC's zvz hyper aggression? i feel like with his style, it forces a 15 hatcher to produce not enough drones to make the early hatch effective, because of you needing to respond with spines or slowlings and roaches. and his style wouldn't be behind in econ, as he does explain that he drones behind attacks and will easily transition to roaches if needed.
15 hatch can hold any 14/14 aggression EASILY on any map except Tal'Darim, assuming you don't get greedy. The problems come when you try to drone at the same time because if you just keep building roaches/lings you're gonna fall behind a guy who gets 8 lings and drones behind it with a 21 hatch.
So if you knew that hyper aggression was coming then yes you can hold it ezpz.
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On November 14 2011 13:55 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 11:04 TangFish wrote:
would this hold vs TangSC's zvz hyper aggression? i feel like with his style, it forces a 15 hatcher to produce not enough drones to make the early hatch effective, because of you needing to respond with spines or slowlings and roaches. and his style wouldn't be behind in econ, as he does explain that he drones behind attacks and will easily transition to roaches if needed. 15 hatch can hold any 14/14 aggression EASILY on any map except Tal'Darim, assuming you don't get greedy. The problems come when you try to drone at the same time because if you just keep building roaches/lings you're gonna fall behind a guy who gets 8 lings and drones behind it with a 21 hatch. So if you knew that hyper aggression was coming then yes you can hold it ezpz.
Pretty much this. On taldarim if you hatch first you HAVE to baneling expand with it. If you go roaches if the other zerg can control well and be smart you will take a lot of damage early as you can't block off the choke to your main and natural with roaches so its very easy for the other zerg to exploit that.
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http://drop.sc/76584
So, today I practiced Hatch first vs 13/13 bling all-in on tal darim and it's tough to hold.
The build I was using is 15 hatch, 15 pool, 14 gas, 16 overlord, 17 queen, 19 4x lings, 21 spine...then pretty much mass lings until I can get my second queen somewhere in there.
Obviously, this build differs from yours insofar as I get my gas sooner, i.e.: both speed and blings sooner. I feel with proper control, I could hold it better, but that's not why I'm here.
My question: is there any particular reason one would choose between 17 gas and just going pool/gas immediately, like I do? Furthermore, during ling/bling wars, is there are a particular time one should be getting a roach warren, particularly against an all-in where lings are flooding in constantly?
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On December 20 2011 18:45 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/76584So, today I practiced Hatch first vs 13/13 bling all-in on tal darim and it's tough to hold. The build I was using is 15 hatch, 15 pool, 14 gas, 16 overlord, 17 queen, 19 4x lings, 21 spine...then pretty much mass lings until I can get my second queen somewhere in there. Obviously, this build differs from yours insofar as I get my gas sooner, i.e.: both speed and blings sooner. I feel with proper control, I could hold it better, but that's not why I'm here. My question: is there any particular reason one would choose between 17 gas and just going pool/gas immediately, like I do? Furthermore, during ling/bling wars, is there are a particular time one should be getting a roach warren, particularly against an all-in where lings are flooding in constantly?
Well on taldarim is the only map where I will go banelings and get my gas a little faster in zvz. With roaches its so hard to hold a ling/bane all in on taldarim while on others roaches make it easy. The 17 gas is just when you need it to start making roaches with the build I do. If i were going for ling/bane wars I would get gas same time as pool possibly a little sooner so I could get speed + banelings asap.
As for the roach warren I mean if you don't do the build I do idk when I don't do this build zvz when I hatch first and he doesn't I just get it when I feel I need it. But if you are going ling/bane and he's all inning you with lings you should win easily as banelings with proper control will wipe his all in ling and you should come out far ahead.
With the opening I do with roaches its not as micro intensive. If I fuck up misclick with ling/bane it can cost me the game. If I misclick with roaches will banelings won't kill them all with 1 shot. Its a little more forgiving but if you over invest in roaches it can put you behind economically.
I hate ling/bane wars so I prefer this roach method over ling/bane but on taldarim you have to go ling/bane unfortunately as roaches can be beaten on that map pretty easily.
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I was just wondering if it was possible for you to update this for current styles/maps. I understand you sort of talked about it in your other threads but if you just made a dedicated hatch first one I'd really appreciate it <3
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Oh I can't update the OP with the current build woops lol. Hm guess I will just make a separate post.
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HUGE shoutout to Chaosvuistje for pm'ing me with this to make it look nicer and more organized :D
Zerg versus Zerg – Hatch first play against 14gas-14pool openings
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iyMmz.png) by Blade55555
Zerg vs Zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Zerg Muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282954
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
Zerg vs Protoss Tier 2 aggression: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318129
Zerg vs protoss Banelings: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338403
I decided I was going to showcase how to hatch first and hold a 14/14. For some reason many zerg players seem to think 14/14 beats hatch first no matter what if they all in ling. I have had this debate with some people a lot lately so decided I am going to be uploading some replays and what to do to hold off a 14/14 when you hatch first.
So here is what the build looks like.
--------Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference , I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
15- spawning pool
15 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
Spawning pool finishes - 2 queens and baneling nest if opponent does not expand, otherwise metabolic boost
22-23 – overlord
5:00 - 5:15 - Baneling nest (this is assuming he expands, this is when I would get the baneling nest).
Notes: Now that the game has changed a lot, baneling defense is a lot stronger and more economical then roaches. You can still use roaches at lower levels and win most of the time, but now of days it will put you a bit behind economically. It's a lot harder to feel how many roaches you need and how many lings your opponent is making which is why going roaches instead of banelings is a bit out of date.
The baneling nest is very dependent on what your opponent is doing. Your overlord should see when he takes his expansion (note it should be at 21 supply about for him). If you do not see it you need to get a spine and a baneling nest asap. If you see him expand, ling speed is preferable and then eventually a baneling nest. I would make a spine as well, but that is totally up to you.
--------Hatch first vs Hatch first Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference ,
I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
16-18- spawning pool
17 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
Make 4 lings use 1 to scout
21-22 baneling nest (incase they go all in ling)
Notes: You can delay the baneling nest if you wish till about 5 minutes, or get it earlier if you want to do aggression or something, that is totally up to you. Depending on how you want to approach the game after early game, you can either get a roach warren, ling/infestor, muta, etc.
--------Defending--------
Now this style is a very defensive style, you want to make 1-2 banelings and not make more unless you see he is going to do a ling/baneling allin. If you see this (which you should with overlords across the map) make more banelings as needed and micro and if you hold you are going to be ahead.
Now note you need to spread your overlords with this strategy. If you do not spread your overlords he can do something sneaky that could pay off because you weren't spreading. Overlords are very important and zvz and give you "map" control in the sense that you know when he's attacking, when he's taking his third, etc. Also using your overlord to check your opponents drone count is very, very important. If you do not do this, this can cost you the game. If he's all inning and your droning hard you will die to his attack and if he's mass droning but your preparing for an all in your massively behind economically.
On the rare map that does not let you check the back of their mineral line at their natural just sacrifice an overlord and only one at about 30'ish supply. Do it at the natural so that you can see his drone count. This will be 100% worth it because if you see no drones you know to prepare for an all in, and if you see decent amount of drones you know you can keep droning.
A good way to detect this I have found is sending 1 speedling to your opponents base. Just send them a lot and you will be able to see if he's making units or something like that. Also you should have an overlord in the back of your opponents natural (queen can't hit it) and peak at drone count by moving it up to see the drone count at the natural. If you see very little or non, expect an all in. Key things to look for:
1. Drone count
2. Army (if you see it)
If you don't see any army and see very few drones at his natural then prepare for an all in. You should be able to hold any all in with ling/bane and spines as needed.
You can transition however you wish after you hold it off. You can try to kill him if you want, you can take it into a macro game or whatever you prefer. You do have to defend this pretty well as if you take economic damage then attacking might not be the best choice.
----------My transition----------
+ Show Spoiler + All right so after holding off his early aggression and I am positive he's not all inning, I drone up. On a lot of maps you can check his drone count with an overlord at his natural without sacrificing it.
On maps you can't check his drone count with an overlord without it dying, at some point sacrifice an overlord. Yes it sucks but this is 100% worth it. You should be able to see how many drones he has at his natural. If you see a lack of drones, you know he's all inning and can prepare. If you see lots of drones you know you can keep droning and not worry about dying by an attack.
I either get 1/1 melee/carapace if I am going ling/infestor or 1/1 air/carapace or go just +1 carapace or range depending on the strategy.
Make some spines at your other bases and you should have alot of excess minerals. Just mass expand with the extra money and spine crawlers to stop zergling attacks. I do like to get a baneling nest and have some banelings encase i move out and he counter attacks with zerglings but thats just my personal preference. I like to get overlord speed as well to scout him, scout when he takes his third, etc and well have 1 overseer with my roaches encase he gets burrow tech and tries something cute.
I get a hydra den first if I am going roach play before infestors as I feel this is a lot stronger. At about 120 supply is when I start adding them in and I add infestors at about 150-160 supply.
----------If he goes Muta----------
+ Show Spoiler + If he is going Muta's a good response is you should have a third before they pop and do a defensive roach/infestor or roach/hydra or ling/infestor style. If going roach style you want to build a huge roach/hydra/infestor and then attack. If you see a lot of spine crawlers I would get drop tech and with your whole army drop his main (you will be surprised at how effective this is!).
Make sure he didn't take his third to fast (by fast I am meaning getting a third before even getting muta's out). If he does this I would try to force a cancel with lings, add in a couple banelings and see how it goes from there. If you can't cancel it not a big deal.
I would make an overseer as well so that you can see if he does cute burrowed banelings!
----------Replays----------
The details of the players rank and all that are shown when you follow the links. So be sure to check them out and see what replay interrests you most.
The replays have me vs players as sixjaxVIBE, Inure, Spanishiwa (before he joined vile), and VTzerker
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/?4czg0st3z8mkdpf
http://www.mediafire.com/?5opxr53ojoyramu
+ Show Spoiler +
Vs 1base roach/ling agression: 2 replay
+ Show Spoiler +
Vs early ling/baneling agression: 0 replay
+ Show Spoiler +
Blade vs Early pool
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?xl3sa6t17oqiotp
--------Closing words--------
If you have any questions I well try to answer them and hopefully this helps zergs out that are struggling vs the 14/14 and feel you can't defend it with hatch first.
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Jeez, that was fast. Thank you so very much for this. I'm an even bigger fan of you now. Do you stream? I'd like to watch you play sometime. Thanks again.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5e11Q.png)
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