EPT[G] ZvZ Hatch first vs a 14/14 - Page 13
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
I've been going 14/14 for a long time and 15 hatch scares me a lot so I scout on 9 just to deny hatch first builds. Do you think its better to send an extra drone to shoo away the drone or is it better just to drop your pool/gas and be like ~20 seconds behind. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 12 2011 08:18 zJayy962 wrote: How do you feel about a person going 14/14 scouting on 9 to block your hatch from going down? I've been going 14/14 for a long time and 15 hatch scares me a lot so I scout on 9 just to deny hatch first builds. Do you think its better to send an extra drone to shoo away the drone or is it better just to drop your pool/gas and be like ~20 seconds behind. I just send 2 drones and he has to let me through soon or loses the drone. Doesn't affect me at all. | ||
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Ardhimas
Indonesia75 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 24 2011 02:25 Ardhimas wrote: What do you do when someone does a 15 hatch, cuts drones at around 20 and just masses lings? I had no way of saving my expansion, and I knew he was far ahead the moment I lost my expansion and his base was untouched. I couldn't scout his base due to the sheer amount of lings so I assumed it was merely a 2 base ling bling or roach ling preparation, so I placed 2 spines which were easily lost. I'm not sure if getting ling bling would've secured me the win, because a good player wouldn't end his lead by running all his lings into blings. I make a baneling nest almost the second my spawning pool finishes when we both hatch first. I never get ling speed so I just get the baneling nest, then roach warren a little later. If I think he's going to all in ling or something I make banelings. I make 3 banelings no matter what once my baneling nest finishes. He will do these 2 options: A. Try to send 1-2 lings at a time to kill your banelings (try to not let your banes connect to his 1-2 lings). B. run back and drone up C. Try to bypass everything and go straight into the main. I'm going to assume he's decent and doesn't just A move and not pay attention to his lings. You use slowlings + banelings to hold off until your roaches pop (should be able to get about 3-4 roaches to help defend). That is what I do and I believe I got some replays of me doing it in the OP but if not I will upload some for you. | ||
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Skroach
United States85 Posts
I'd also like to add that the no gas spanishiwa style holds against the bane opening very well. I personally don't like to hatch first because it is very hard to do and I must do everything perfectly against a good early all-in. On large maps, though, I have been trying to incorporate hatch first more, as it is much more difficult to do a bane opening on these maps. As more people get better at executing these kinds of builds though I think I will have to adjust. Right now ZvZ is my matchup with the highest win rate and I 14 pool bane every single game. I think this is because I can stop 6 pool, destroy 10 pool, be even against another 14 pool, and punish the hatch first (unless they do good Spanishiwa or the style Blade uses!). I predict eventually I'll have to hatch first more often. | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 19 2011 17:54 Trakky wrote: I'm not sure if you have already answered this. But how do you hold off a 9pool on a map let's say Taldarim where even if you 9 scout, you won't have time to react at all because lings will already be in ur base by the time you scout the last (or even 2nd last) base. Also, please also guide me in handling a 9pool on a normal sized map like xel naga caverns (proper response like cancelling hatch, make evos to block or something like that). um if you scout it last, you have to try and get a concave with your drones. Because drones are better then slowlings if you can get a good surround, so thats what you need to try to do. While doing that your spawning pool should be being made and should start making lings a little after his lings make it to your base. His lings will not be at your base by the time you scout him, they might have popped but they will not be at your base when you scout him trust me on that  .A proper response to scouting it is instant cancel hatch and make spawning pool, drone to a lot and make sure to save larva so you can make lings second that spawning pool finishes. | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2011 03:13 Trakky wrote: I read this thread - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254591 and it seems like the person who did 9pool isn't really behind at all in terms of econ even if he doesn't do a ton of damage. I look through the perspective of the defenders in the replays and it seems like there's nothing he could do to get ahead even if he's going 14 gas 14pool (way better opening than hatch first to handle 9pool on maps like shattered temple cross position). In one game, the defender lost only 2 drones from the 9pool harass, but the drone count from the 9pooler was 5 more than the defender once the pressure is over. I see ret and idra and especially the korean pros don't drone scout at all, and I'm just wondering that they must know of a way to handle 9pooler easily with no scouting since they seem so confident. I was thinking of pulling your drones off creep, so the lings will have slower speed, what do you think about this? What would your transition be though after holding off a 9pool, because even though sometimes I hold it, I don't know what to do after because my plan has been completely thrown off while he has a clear BO and timing attack. So to hold off 9pool, make more drones, cancel hatch, grab your drones and a-move and try to get concave? or do I try to dance around until lings are out (but by this time, his lings keep chasing my drones). If he is 9 pooling and only making 6 lings you should know that by your overlord placements. Honestly you won't be behind a 9 pool, you just have to make 6 lings yourself. If he has more drones then you, you either over reacted assuming he's all inning with it, or he did more damage then he should have. You will be ahead even if you over react and make more lings then you should, you will have ling speed way before him (thus he will be forced to make a spine crawler because you could go baneling bust vs him and you can't defend that with just lings). So unless the player doing 14/14 vs that guys 9 pool just sits and lets him drone and catch up in ling speed/tech and he's not making a roach warren or a spine crawler thats just the 14/14 player being to passive. You should realize that you will have ling speed before him and will force him to make more lings or some sort of defense or he will die. I mean if he only has 6 lings, just mineral walk walk to surround them. The 9 pool strategy really is pretty bad, especially if you scout it in time to do 14/14. Your lings should not be that late if he 9 pools, your spawning pool should be like done within seconds by the time his lings make it to your base (unless its close positions or something on shattered). | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2011 12:26 Trakky wrote: Just to clarify, sorry for asking so many questions, but you're saying the proper response to 9pool IF i'm going hatch first (your BO basically) is to cancel hatch, use drones to mineral walk (most good players don't fall for the mineral trick though) and just make 6 lings, hold off the pressure, and continue normal. But when would you get gas after? and when would you get your nat? In the post above, you said 14/14 will let you have speed before the 9pooler, but what if I'm going hatch first. Well if I scout his 9 pool in time I'll put gas, then spawning pool, if I scout him last on taldarim I put spawning pool and gas at same time and ling speed will be delayed slightly, but still a lot faster then his. But that is why you use mineral walking just to try, it won't get him 99% of the time, but its just to stall till your lings are out then you are good to go. I would then transition into a possible baneling bust if I feel he isn't prepared correctly, but expand as well. | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2011 13:29 Trakky wrote: Against a 6/7 pooler with spine rush, would you rather try to kill the spine before it finishes (meaning you have to full on engage without your lings out in time) or do you wait until pool is done and your lings are out to engage against a spine + lings? Or do you just keep waiting and letting his spine hit your hatch until you have a really overwhelming number of lings to just kill his pressure before your hatch goes down. If he does a spine rush, pull all drones but like 1-2, and have them kill the lings. Have 4 focus the spine while the rest focus the other lings. You should hold easily enough with drones. You'll lose some but not alot as 12 drones > 6 lings (you should have about 15 or so drones because when you throw down the spawning pool you still want to keep making drones.) Trying to get a concave is good, and then yeah the 6/7 pool spine rush is easily defended if you micro your drones correctly as drones just beat slow lings so easily | ||
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FreeRobotFrost
16 Posts
On August 20 2011 14:24 blade55555 wrote: If he does a spine rush, pull all drones but like 1-2, and have them kill the lings. Have 4 focus the spine while the rest focus the other lings. You should hold easily enough with drones. You'll lose some but not alot as 12 drones > 6 lings (you should have about 15 or so drones because when you throw down the spawning pool you still want to keep making drones.) Trying to get a concave is good, and then yeah the 6/7 pool spine rush is easily defended if you micro your drones correctly as drones just beat slow lings so easily If you can manage to engage the lings off creep, you can actually micro your drones away without taking casualties (because drones are faster off creep). The trick is not to over-react. I find that throwing down a spine crawler of your own can be helpful, if only because of the larvae advantage it gives you defending if it gets up. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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minisockey
99 Posts
on topic thanks for the help i kept losing alot of early zvz to these dumb allins | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 21 2011 11:30 minisockey wrote: i have a question sort of offtopic but this might be a dumb question but how do u no if a zerg is goign infestor or muta? i lost a game where i scouted all 4 gasses and liar and he hid his spire in some random location on the map with his overlord and i ended up dieing because i just went infestor and he attacked before i had enough 2 handle them. on topic thanks for the help i kept losing alot of early zvz to these dumb allins Well if he hid iti on the map somewhere, when you scouted his main/natural did you see anything? Personally if I scouted someone doing that didn't' see an infestation pit or anything and he took his 4 gases fast I would assume muta honestly. If he's gathering all that gas you know for a fact he's not just going roach all in as you don't need that much gas, unless he's really bad he's not going to do that. How do you transition out of it vs mass mass ling? If he ling all inning, or just has a ton of lings I will get a baneling nest. Best way so that you can move out and not go for a base trade ^^. | ||
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