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To be completely honest, I think hatch first is one of the worst things you can do in ZvZ. I used to do it religiously until I realized the problems with it..
The primary problem is that you are forced into a defensive game and you give up all map control. You really have to be able to scout your opponent consistently in this matchup to have any chance of winning.
Your pool first opponent can simply expand right away, and get NO WARREN and NO ROACHES. They can pump drones and be perfectly safe. Obviously a roach player will not be able to attack or pressure because speedlings will wreck his base. Even though you get a hatch down faster, you actually end up behind in macro because you have to commit to defense while your opponent does not. Hell, a pool first player could even double expand. How can you stop it?
Now note do not pump pure drones until your sure he's done with attack and is droning up himself (this is of course assuming he takes an expansion after his harass/during the harass he does). Sneak in some drones here and there but don't completely stop making roaches until your very positive that he's not going to do an all in ling/bane or something attack.
See this is the problem right here, as I see it. You are forced to make defensive units and your opponent isn't. Watching Idra vs. Sen is a very good example of this problem, and why an early hatch is a liability instead of an advantage.
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In the replay you've listed of your hatch first vs 14/14, you win not because of the merit of hatch first, but because of the positioning of your roaches in the inital defense, and the following counter attack. In both the concave you get and the focus firing you perform put you ahead of the other zerg.
The hatch first actually slows you down because you have to tech into baneling + roach just to defend a possible all in, while the other zerg macros up far beyond you, and then techs faster than you.
The win is to the merit of your micro, not the overall strategy.
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thanks for this guide, i appreciate the time and effort <3
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On May 31 2011 03:11 jdseemoreglass wrote:To be completely honest, I think hatch first is one of the worst things you can do in ZvZ. I used to do it religiously until I realized the problems with it.. The primary problem is that you are forced into a defensive game and you give up all map control. You really have to be able to scout your opponent consistently in this matchup to have any chance of winning. Your pool first opponent can simply expand right away, and get NO WARREN and NO ROACHES. They can pump drones and be perfectly safe. Obviously a roach player will not be able to attack or pressure because speedlings will wreck his base. Even though you get a hatch down faster, you actually end up behind in macro because you have to commit to defense while your opponent does not. Hell, a pool first player could even double expand. How can you stop it? Show nested quote +Now note do not pump pure drones until your sure he's done with attack and is droning up himself (this is of course assuming he takes an expansion after his harass/during the harass he does). Sneak in some drones here and there but don't completely stop making roaches until your very positive that he's not going to do an all in ling/bane or something attack. See this is the problem right here, as I see it. You are forced to make defensive units and your opponent isn't. Watching Idra vs. Sen is a very good example of this problem, and why an early hatch is a liability instead of an advantage.
I have yet to update this guide to the fullest dealing with the potential problems of your opponent just mass droning while your making defensive units for no reason. Again like I said on most maps you can check the drone count of your opponent at his natural so you can see if he's making units or drones. You will see his expo go down and finish with that overlord as well.
Also note you must misunderstand that when I get a baneling nest + roach warren is hatch first vs hatch first not hatch first vs 14/14. You can add a baneling nest later if you want sure but no way do you get it with a roach warren you pick one or the other.
and if a pool first player double expands he won't have the units to defend a roach/ling attack lol. That is silly to even think thats a counter to hatch first because if it was you would see it done at pro level but you don't because then the zerg that double expo'd will lose to any sort of roach/ling attack. again there are solutions so as you don't get behind economically vs a 14/14 and not make a ton of units that you won't need. Overlords are very key with this strategy, its fine if you disagree and will still not do it but its not the worst opener by far. And yes no matter what with this build you do concede map control that you don't even need anyway (again overlords see everything as long as you spread them and not have them gather in 1 portion of the map).
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Most pro zergs that i've seen, (mostly streamers: sen, phoenixwerra etc.) tend to pool first in zvz, considering how aggressive of a matchup it tends to be. So I'm now sure what you mean by
and if a pool first player double expands he won't have the units to defend a roach/ling attack lol. That is silly to even think thats a counter to hatch first because if it was you would see it done at pro level
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Whenever I use this build against 14/14, it's so hard to hold off his attack even with the burst of 5+ roaches mentioned in this guide because he would just run to main to nat to main and keep going and sniping drones while my slow roaches try to keep up. I've tried to handle it by just moving all my drones at nat to main, but it's still difficult to handle because he would have some lings atking my nat and lings would still dance around in my main. Any tips?
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On June 19 2011 04:29 Trakky wrote:
Whenever I use this build against 14/14, it's so hard to hold off his attack even with the burst of 5+ roaches mentioned in this guide because he would just run to main to nat to main and keep going and sniping drones while my slow roaches try to keep up. I've tried to handle it by just moving all my drones at nat to main, but it's still difficult to handle because he would have some lings atking my nat and lings would still dance around in my main. Any tips?
You shouldn't lose your initial lings if possible so you should be using those to block off with 1 queen. Normally they won't try to bust that with the few lings they have because they will lose most of them. If they get in the main as long as he doesn't kill much its not to bad although it can be avoidable.
But yeah try using your lings + queen to block the ramp. I have been getting about 6 lings + a queen early then i'll have my roaches out come as soon as roach warren finishes. I find this method a little better due to blocking the ramp and you have a queen out already so you don't lose much larva once you start getting a lot of minerals.
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So right when pool pops, I get roach warren asap then queen then 6 lings. Or do I go for lings before queens? But when lings do get in before I can make the wall, I have to abort the wall plan because then they'll be lings inside my main while I wait for the roaches to come out.
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On June 19 2011 05:54 Trakky wrote:
So right when pool pops, I get roach warren asap then queen then 6 lings. Or do I go for lings before queens? But when lings do get in before I can make the wall, I have to abort the wall plan because then they'll be lings inside my main while I wait for the roaches to come out.
Right when spawning pool finishes make a roach warren asap, make 6 lings then a queen. his lings shouldn't be sneaking into your base that early your lings should be keeping him from doing that.
If he takes some shots at your hatchery thats fine your roaches will get out in time. I mean he should not be getting up the ramp most of the time before your roaches are out unless its like scrap station. If it happens just pull drones and get rid of the lings its all you can do  .
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Liquid'RET uses this build and he's discussed it in the 12 Weeks with the Pros which is located at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=177791 for those who are interested. The video is a couple months old, so I don't know if the metagame has changed enough for it to be invalid; however, in my experience it still works (haven't played since patch 1.2 damn you exams! T_T).
Some of the posts are saying that the 14/14 Zerg has the opportunity to pure drone while the hatch first cannot, but you must realize they have a limit on the number of units they can create especially zerglings and drones (most larva inefficient units). They only have 7 larva per minute including a queen while the hatch first has 10 larva per minute with *one* queen or 14 larva per minute with two. This works out to 350 minerals/minute being spent on either 14 zerglings or 7 drones for the 14/14 and a base should be about 600 minerals/minute at that particular moment in the game. With this said, the hatch first will clearly have an advantage in stronger production thus army and drones for the next 100 seconds if the 14/14 makes a hatchery.
The larger potential army and drones and the higher tech then equate into a threat the 14/14 must solve. You can't pure drone because 7-12 (maybe more) roaches can attack you in about 1 to 2 minutes with a plethora of zerglings as support if the hatch first decides to all-in and no matter how many zerglings you produce within that reactionary moment, you won't have enough larva to make enough thus the 14/14 must constantly produce zerglings or tech to roaches in order to survive.
As for pros going with 14/14, I don't know the exact reason, but I'm fairly certain most players (up until grandmaster) are unable to micro them properly/as well as the pros. These pros usually do not hatch right after instead they use banelings to *even* the game (not win) which in my opinion is micro intensive. In addition contrary to that, I see lots of tournament games where hatch first is used so =x I don't know about the pros and 14/14 part.
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there is a timing window where hatch first outproduces pool first, but if you want to be safe you need to delay 2nd queen to get the roach warren and pump out roaches at a time when they are too expensive to use all your larva. pool first will always get a drone advantage over hatch first into roach because of this.
the threat you are talking about only happens when hatch first plays unsafe and goes straight into 2-queen drones or speedlings skipping roach.
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Also, when do you get your ling speed? Against 15 hatch and 14/14? I have no idea when to get it because I need gas for upgrades/lair/roach speed which you mentioned.
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On big maps like tal darim and typhon crossed i recommend going 16 hatch, 16 gas, 16 pool
Fast banelings can be countered with delayed blings and queens blocking the ramp
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On June 20 2011 05:04 Trakky wrote:
Also, when do you get your ling speed? Against 15 hatch and 14/14? I have no idea when to get it because I need gas for upgrades/lair/roach speed which you mentioned.
hmm honestly, and I know this will be weird but I don't get ling speed in zvz. I don't ever make mass lings ever so I don't bother getting it. I would rather use that 100 gas on an upgrade or something. Weird but thats what I do so I don't know, you would have to watch idra/ret to know ^^.
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I used 2 play like that as well blade
But trust me getting ling speed is worth it 
U always have 2 play defensively
With speed u can punish a zerg for being greedy soooo easily
Just throw down roach warren and bling nest and go kill him 
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If possible, please upload more replays, some against 14/14, and some in late game. Any tips on when to transition from mass roaches into broodlords? (when 4th is running?)
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On June 20 2011 06:54 CcCFlu wrote:I used 2 play like that as well blade But trust me getting ling speed is worth it U always have 2 play defensively With speed u can punish a zerg for being greedy soooo easily Just throw down roach warren and bling nest and go kill him
Yeah I prefer banelings and I kind of like playing defensively ^^. And then leaving a couple banelings and watching them kill his ling counter attack is oh so satisfying :D.
If possible, please upload more replays, some against 14/14, and some in late game. Any tips on when to transition from mass roaches into broodlords? (when 4th is running?)
I would start hive when you start 2/2. I will upload more replays but won't be up till tomorrow as I am going to be at work soon.
Something I do in zvz, sense its so gas intensive and I always have a ton of minerals after droning and this is assuming nobody all ins or its all equaled out. I will take my 4'th like right when my third finishes. I know many players prefer to make lots of speedlings but I feel the way I do is better getting a faster 4'th, having banelings for the lings as defensive purpose, and roach/infestor.
Now after I get my third base gas all together that I add hydra's to my roach/infestor. It is so powerful, I have been seeing Idra do it and doing it myself and finding it rolling through pure roach/infestor. You still have like 6-8 infestors and a lot of roaches then with hydra support is so strong :D. But yes I'll upload replays tomorrow and will bump to let you know ^^.
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I thought you said in the guide to get +1 before lair, then when +1 is almost done throw down a 2nd evo and when you start +2/+1, start infestor pit, so how would hive be possible at 2/2?
"I would start hive when you start 2/2. I will upload more replays but won't be up till tomorrow as I am going to be at work soon."
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On June 20 2011 14:48 Trakky wrote:
I thought you said in the guide to get +1 before lair, then when +1 is almost done throw down a 2nd evo and when you start +2/+1, start infestor pit, so how would hive be possible at 2/2?
"I would start hive when you start 2/2. I will upload more replays but won't be up till tomorrow as I am going to be at work soon."
well I am meaning you'll be lair and +1 won't be finished. You start +2 and then all that I don't really have a hive timing I just go when I feel I can spare the gas to go hive + throw down a spire. Didn't think the post as much as I could have but you can start hive when going 2/2 but not asap. Just do it when you feel you have the gas as honestly I don't have a set time like I normally do in zvt/zvp.
I will upload replays tomorrow and with some hive tech games ^^.
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On May 01 2011 04:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 04:44 skypig wrote:
How does this build work on maps with wide entrances to the main (i.e. Tal'Darim Altar and Scrap Station)? I have had trouble getting enough roaches/queens to block my main entrance in cases like these, although I may have to try it a few more times to perfect my micro. Do you have any advice for dealing with wider-than-normal entrances to the main using this build, or is it best to go speedling/bling in cases like this? I responded too this by your PM! I am going to copy paste that here in case other people can see it. Hi, yes I do hatch first on taldarim and scrap station. The only times they can really run past your roach/ling should be right when your initial roaches pop. This isn't really as big of a deal as you would think. All you really need to do is grab your drones, and have them "move" too your natural while you wait for your roach/ling too save them. Then just move them back. If your out right losing all your roaches and stuff too the surround your not making enough roaches. It sounds too me like your getting your queens as soon as your pool finishes. If you are you should be delaying those queens for a decent amount of times as you don't need them asap.
Idk I saw destiny lose to idra on scrap station when idra killed him with lings and he tried to go roach. Also losira beat machine on tal darim at mlg columbus when machine went hatch first and losira went one base sling bane. I'm not sure if it's possible to hold on those maps? I have such a hard time going hatch first and knowing how many units to make from their drone count. I'm much better going sling bane or sling expand and knowing how much damage I have to do to even the game out. I know ret idra and sheth hatch first quite frequently but nothing feels right when I do it and I frequently die to ling allins. Is it bad to favor a bane nest before roach warren just for defense against ling allins? On ladder I feel like I need to keep making lings until I can make some banes for defense just to be safe if they keep making lings. Is this correct or incorrect?
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EPT
