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On June 20 2011 17:07 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2011 04:47 blade55555 wrote:On May 01 2011 04:44 skypig wrote:
How does this build work on maps with wide entrances to the main (i.e. Tal'Darim Altar and Scrap Station)? I have had trouble getting enough roaches/queens to block my main entrance in cases like these, although I may have to try it a few more times to perfect my micro. Do you have any advice for dealing with wider-than-normal entrances to the main using this build, or is it best to go speedling/bling in cases like this? I responded too this by your PM! I am going to copy paste that here in case other people can see it. Hi, yes I do hatch first on taldarim and scrap station. The only times they can really run past your roach/ling should be right when your initial roaches pop. This isn't really as big of a deal as you would think. All you really need to do is grab your drones, and have them "move" too your natural while you wait for your roach/ling too save them. Then just move them back. If your out right losing all your roaches and stuff too the surround your not making enough roaches. It sounds too me like your getting your queens as soon as your pool finishes. If you are you should be delaying those queens for a decent amount of times as you don't need them asap. Idk I saw destiny lose to idra on scrap station when idra killed him with lings and he tried to go roach. Also losira beat machine on tal darim at mlg columbus when machine went hatch first and losira went one base sling bane. I'm not sure if it's possible to hold on those maps? I have such a hard time going hatch first and knowing how many units to make from their drone count. I'm much better going sling bane or sling expand and knowing how much damage I have to do to even the game out. I know ret idra and sheth hatch first quite frequently but nothing feels right when I do it and I frequently die to ling allins. Is it bad to favor a bane nest before roach warren just for defense against ling allins? On ladder I feel like I need to keep making lings until I can make some banes for defense just to be safe if they keep making lings. Is this correct or incorrect?
There are multiple styles when hatch firsting vs a non hatch first. I know idra prefers roaches and so do I as I hate ling/bane wars vs ling/bane wars. But you can do either way ^^.
I know I have watched idra hatch first on scrap vs a non hatch first and do just fine. I wouldn't take much by destiny's play, especially in zvz. I think I saw the losira vs machine games and machine didn't get a roach warren he went just pure lings I believe? Maybe i'm wrong but I feel like I saw that.
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nm, He went bane but losira can have 4 banes in his base before machine's banes are starting to morph. Bane nest takes 5 seconds longer to complete than roach warren and if they're able to morph the banes that close usually I can get the banes in the drone line before or right as the roaches are popping. I thought machine went roach in this game for some reason so I guess you answer my question in previous posts.
I'm scared to do this on xel naga and I'm wondering when you get the bane nest against ling allins? It seems like I always get mine too late. Do you just keep making roaches and keep two drones on gas and try to trickle in drones when you don't have enough gas for roaches? Then you drone if you scout them droning? How do you hold against roach ling allins that leave their base at the 7-8 min mark? I usually put up a couple spines just in fear of that and it also makes me feel safer to drone harder.
It's so hard for me to see on paper. Any chance of getting more reps?
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All right here's 4 new zvz replays.
This has 2 replays of the zerg all inning on metal/taldarim and me holding (although the one on metal, if I had micro'd my banelings better would have been in a way better position  ).
Hope this helps you guys out as per request!
http://www.mediafire.com/?5opxr53ojoyramu
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On June 21 2011 04:40 blade55555 wrote:All right here's 4 new zvz replays. This has 2 replays of the zerg all inning on metal/taldarim and me holding (although the one on metal, if I had micro'd my banelings better would have been in a way better position ). Hope this helps you guys out as per request! http://www.mediafire.com/?5opxr53ojoyramu
Thanks I'm starting to get the general flow of the game. I'll have to rewatch idra's and sheth's games to see what they saw that makes me them stay on roach because I don't think they go for banes and just stay on roach ling? I'm starting to win with hatch first on ladder now even before I saw these reps and I'm starting to get used to drone counts and how many lings they can have around the 8-9 min mark. It's nice to see several games to get a sense of your timings on your tech.
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Idra/sheth and 99% of the other zergs stay roach/ling but they also get ling speed. Instead of getting ling speed I use that to get a baneling nest instead. I play zvz different then most zergs so i know idra/sheth/most other top zergs would not like it but I like it because I rarely make many lings in zvz anyway ^^.
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Here's a rep I had on typhon peaks where he goes speedling, makes about 24 and kills my nat. He's ahead after that and you don't have to watch the rest. I guess I probably have to 14 pool instead of 15 pool? I'm not sure if typhon peaks is different than other maps. I'll probably only 15 pool on cross positions on metal and shattered and 14 pool on maps like backwater gulch and xel naga and non cross positions. I couldn't save all my larva for roaches and I tried to panic make 4 extra lings just to stall until more roaches came out but I think I lose the hatch either way. I just want to be cool like sheth/idra and 15 hatch 15 pool roach speedling every game. =[[
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/Typhon Peaks (60).SC2Replay
<edit> Actually Sheth has his reps up from his charity marathon now! So excited to see his zvz. http://fxosheth.com/replays
I think I'll stick to speedling expand on maps with open nats like xel and typhon. Sheth goes the standard 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas 17 ov on shakuras against spanishiwa. Spanishiwa goes sling expo and is ahead in drones and roaches. It just seems so much easier to play going sling expand especially on ladder where you have no idea who you're playing. Map control is way more important to me when I'm playing randoms on ladder.
On the other hand idra and sheth do still hatch into roach a lot. Oh yeah and blade =P. I'll try to keep working on it and get through this sheth rep pack.
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I have trouble with a ton of speedlings runby in mid-late game. Because I have slow lings and roaches are pretty slow compare to slings, what do you suggest I do? I mean like, my opponent gets 25+ slings and would run in to 1 of my 3 bases now and then and especially when I move out. I leave 3-4 banelings at each mineral line but it just isn't enough. Maybe banelings + 2 spines at each expo? but he can target my nat too and I feel like that many spines is a huge investment. thx again.
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On June 26 2011 22:10 Trakky wrote:
I have trouble with a ton of speedlings runby in mid-late game. Because I have slow lings and roaches are pretty slow compare to slings, what do you suggest I do? I mean like, my opponent gets 25+ slings and would run in to 1 of my 3 bases now and then and especially when I move out. I leave 3-4 banelings at each mineral line but it just isn't enough. Maybe banelings + 2 spines at each expo? but he can target my nat too and I feel like that many spines is a huge investment. thx again.
Well leaving banelings is all I do and it works amazing. You have to control the banelings a bit but I leave about 3-4 banelings when I move out to attack and any ling run by he does gets rolled. He might have like 5-6 lings left which isn't alot and all you need to do is use your queen + drones or use units that are just being made.
If you are being passive your army should be spread out over your side of the map so he can't do ling run by's either or any cute infestor usage.
But if this is in the mid game where you both have 3rds or more you should have a lot of minerals. You should be putting a spore + a couple spines at each base so that he can't do cute infestor burrow usage. This completely shuts it down and you have so many minerals it doesn't hurt to do it. If you are low on minerals and have a lot of gas then you are not making enough drones at all during the game. You should always be starving for gas in this match up so the 300 minerals at each base is literally nothing as you have so much anyway. ^^.
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After watching and playing more games I like speedling expand on maps with open nats except I'll have to try the hatch first into bane nest before speed like losira did against coca on xel naga.
I think I like idra's build against slush on metal at mlg columbus. Slush went speedling expand to the gold. Idra went 15 hatch/15 gas/14 pool/17 ov/2 lings/2 queens/ling speed/pull drones off gas/6 more lings/2 drones/8 lings/roach warren, and then cancels the roach warren for a bane nest after he scouts the gold expo. He drones to 20 and then just makes lings and banes.
I watched idra vs ret and idra vs slush and I'm surprised to see that 3/4 games idra stays on 20-22 drones. Granted he had to because he either had to allin or was getting allined but at least I can stop beating my head against the wall on ladder trying to squeeze too many drones in against massive aggression.
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I've been doing this for a while now, but have run into problems against mass ling. They do a 14/14 speedling expo, and I do this, but either get run-by or my roaches get surrounded and destroyed. Or he will switch to pure drones, and I won't be able to keep up. On the other hand, if he does pure lings and I go hatch - gas - pool I can just out-produce his lings and roll him with a ling all-in. However, this build just dies to ling/baneling. I've been thinking about leaving my scouting drone (or overlord on maps that allow it) in the base to see if he goes ling or baneling or roach, but then you're guaranteed to lose that drone, which if pretty big in zvz, and he can simply put guys back on gas or tech switch when your drone dies.
On maps like Shakuras you can do the OP's build safely as you can hold your ramp(s) with few roaches. On something like typhon or scrap, I think it's almost impossible to hold against 14/14 pure mass speedlings.
would a default to fast banelings be safer? It'll allow you to hold against pure ling, but would it hold against the fastest 14/14 ling/baneling? Could you adapt against fast roach/ling all-ins fast enough?
I really don't want to play a speedling expand (I'd like to do hatch first) because in my experience it just dies to 14/14 speed -> banelings almost all of the time. I feel like ZvZ has gotten to be sorta coinflip. Well, I'll watch the reps people have posted now.
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On July 07 2011 10:59 Lobotomist wrote:
I've been doing this for a while now, but have run into problems against mass ling. They do a 14/14 speedling expo, and I do this, but either get run-by or my roaches get surrounded and destroyed. Or he will switch to pure drones, and I won't be able to keep up. On the other hand, if he does pure lings and I go hatch - gas - pool I can just out-produce his lings and roll him with a ling all-in. However, this build just dies to ling/baneling. I've been thinking about leaving my scouting drone (or overlord on maps that allow it) in the base to see if he goes ling or baneling or roach, but then you're guaranteed to lose that drone, which if pretty big in zvz, and he can simply put guys back on gas or tech switch when your drone dies.
On maps like Shakuras you can do the OP's build safely as you can hold your ramp(s) with few roaches. On something like typhon or scrap, I think it's almost impossible to hold against 14/14 pure mass speedlings.
would a default to fast banelings be safer? It'll allow you to hold against pure ling, but would it hold against the fastest 14/14 ling/baneling? Could you adapt against fast roach/ling all-ins fast enough?
I really don't want to play a speedling expand (I'd like to do hatch first) because in my experience it just dies to 14/14 speed -> banelings almost all of the time. I feel like ZvZ has gotten to be sorta coinflip. Well, I'll watch the reps people have posted now.
Something i have been doing lately is instead of getting the metabolic boost upgrade, I get baneling nest (50 gas cheaper). I actually never get zergling speed in zvz anymore, not standard and probably most pro's would say why its bad but I have beaten plenty of top zerg players (on NA) doing this so I don't think its bad at all, just can't be all around the map like him with his zerglings but you don't really need it either imo.
Do remember that on most maps except metal I think you can have an overlord check his drone count at his natural so that you can see if he's droning or not. You should have overlords everywhere as well so you can see when he's moving out with his army if he's doing a roach/ling all in and your overlord is constantly looking at his natural drone count.
You can do pure ling/bane to hold off his ling/bane (if he does this). A lot of pro's play that way, I just hate ling/bane vs ling/bane alot so this is why I do this build always instead of that way. There are many ways to do a hatch first and hold vs a 14/14 with fast banelings and what not. I just prefer this method ^_^.
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Hi blade, I play at bottom 50 GM/very high masters level and am wondering:
- Does 14g13p no speed baneling build order win against 15h14p17g16OL 16 ling 17 ling (fastest lings off hatch first that's not 1413)? Please elaborate. 151417 or 151517 with 17/19 roach warren cannot hold against this, which is the standard idra/ret FE hold against the information that the hatchery isn't there (and the information that it isn't a 6-10 pool they're facing) and also appears to be your BO vs what appears to be 1414. The banes are in your base before the roaches even start, and the morph can commence just as the lings start buliding.
- Is there a non-volatile speedling opening off 1514 or 1515 that is safe against 1414 speed keep_on_gas banelings. What are the timings of queens, bane nest and or spines for this build? The only non-volatile openings I am currently aware of off hatch first that is safe to the entire range of 1414 speed is hatchpoolgas 17 roach warren 1 queen 19ling 20ling 21ling 22ling (or drone) 22 overlord (idra/ret standard) or hatchpool no-gas, 2 queen ling spine (dimaga/moon standard). I've seen DRG do 2 queen speed off hatchgaspool against 1414 before he identified opponent was 141421hatch so he must be aware of such a build order against 1414 no hatch speed -> banes.
Ty.
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If he's going banelings no speed with a 14/13 your roaches won't be done yet but he actually won't do much damage. You will have 8 zerglings and he won't have many lings with his banelings. You can send 2 lings to kill a baneling. 1 or 2 will probably make it to your mineral line but all you have to do is spread your drones. Then your roaches will pop and you will be safe. If you spread your drones good he will be able to kill 1-2 drones at the max with his banelings. This is the best way to hold it doing this build and will work (well it does for me anyway).
I get my queen after I start my roach warren at my natural hatchery, I don't make spines unless I see he's about to move out with more units then I can handle. I get my bane nest at a decent time before any ling all in. I don't really know the exact timing to be honest I would say 30'ish supply is about it I think.
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On July 07 2011 17:29 blade55555 wrote:
If he's going banelings no speed with a 14/13 your roaches won't be done yet but he actually won't do much damage. You will have 8 zerglings and he won't have many lings with his banelings. You can send 2 lings to kill a baneling. 1 or 2 will probably make it to your mineral line but all you have to do is spread your drones. Then your roaches will pop and you will be safe. If you spread your drones good he will be able to kill 1-2 drones at the max with his banelings. This is the best way to hold it doing this build and will work (well it does for me anyway)..
I'm glad to hear that it's not a BO loss.
I get my queen after I start my roach warren at my natural hatchery, I don't make spines unless I see he's about to move out with more units then I can handle. I get my bane nest at a decent time before any ling all in. I don't really know the exact timing to be honest I would say 30'ish supply is about it I thin
I think you've misunderstood my second question. I meant to ask if there was a hatch first BO against 1414 that does not involve roaches, and also is not dimaga's no-gas hold.
So, the question was, are you aware of a non-volatile opening off hatchpoolgas or hatchgaspool that has speed and 2 queens, and if so what are the timings of the spines and the baneling nest.
But you can't be expected to know something like this since you probably just do the roach hold against every 1414 which is what most pros do anyways... Just wondering is all.
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On July 07 2011 17:43 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 17:29 blade55555 wrote:
If he's going banelings no speed with a 14/13 your roaches won't be done yet but he actually won't do much damage. You will have 8 zerglings and he won't have many lings with his banelings. You can send 2 lings to kill a baneling. 1 or 2 will probably make it to your mineral line but all you have to do is spread your drones. Then your roaches will pop and you will be safe. If you spread your drones good he will be able to kill 1-2 drones at the max with his banelings. This is the best way to hold it doing this build and will work (well it does for me anyway).. I'm glad to hear that it's not a BO loss. Show nested quote +I get my queen after I start my roach warren at my natural hatchery, I don't make spines unless I see he's about to move out with more units then I can handle. I get my bane nest at a decent time before any ling all in. I don't really know the exact timing to be honest I would say 30'ish supply is about it I thin I think you've misunderstood my second question. I meant to ask if there was a hatch first BO against 1414 that does not involve roaches, and also is not dimaga's no-gas hold. So, the question was, are you aware of a non-volatile opening off hatchpoolgas or hatchgaspool that has speed and 2 queens, and if so what are the timings of the spines and the baneling nest. But you can't be expected to know something like this since you probably just do the roach hold against every 1414 which is what most pros do anyways... Just wondering is all.
Ah there is. I know you can hatch first and go ling/bane (baneling nest before speed). Its a bit harder imo to hold off an all in ling/bane from the 14/14 but is very doable. Very micro intensive, but if you are confident in your micro and don't mind ling/bane vs ling/bane its possible. I know some pro zergs sometimes do this when hatch firsting.
I just don't really know the timings, I know some get gas before pool like 15 hatch, 15 gas, 14 pool. Have to get baneling nest though as soon as spawning pool finishes, and can probably afford both queens or 1 at least. Again not to sure, never really done it but I know its possible ^^.
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timing wise, it seems a well executed 11 pool would beat this on MOST maps. I know that's basically how i've been playing.
11 pool, one inject worth of lings, attack, expo while attacking.
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On July 07 2011 19:58 Blu3 wrote:
timing wise, it seems a well executed 11 pool would beat this on MOST maps. I know that's basically how i've been playing.
11 pool, one inject worth of lings, attack, expo while attacking.
You don't hatch first every game. You hatch first a certain % of the time, tailored to your opponent's tendencies and your overall expected win % against him in the long run.
Consider the overly simplified scenario:
Assumptions to convey my point:
9 pool vs 14g14p, 9 pool loses 100% of the time.
9 pool vs hatch first, hatch first loses 100% of the time.
If you have a 50% win expectation against someone over then long run, then you can hatch first 49% of the time and you will want your opponent to 9 pool you because your expected win rate will be 51% in each game he chooses to 9 pool. The assumptions are of course wrong, but it shows how even if 9 pool or whatever auto-beats hatch first it in no way means you shouldn't hatch first.
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I think I am being retarded but how do I download mediafire files? It just downloads the 4 replays as one weird file for me when I try 
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On July 07 2011 20:46 TheMooseHeed wrote:I think I am being retarded but how do I download mediafire files? It just downloads the 4 replays as one weird file for me when I try
its a winrar file I believe i put it as? if winzip can't open it just google winrar as thats what I use xD.
On July 07 2011 19:58 Blu3 wrote:
timing wise, it seems a well executed 11 pool would beat this on MOST maps. I know that's basically how i've been playing.
11 pool, one inject worth of lings, attack, expo while attacking.
Sure if you blindly do it. I drone scout just incase of an early pool like this. To me its worth sending a drone at 9 to see if my zerg opponent is doing 14/14, hatch first, or 11 pool or earlier. It all takes different responses for me.
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What're your thoughts on drone scout timing for a hatch first on ladder? Optimally, I'd like to have 2/3 locations scouted by the time my hatch goes down, to see if I need to build a pool instead (against a <12 pool) but this requires sending a pretty early drone.
Just watched the last 4 replays you posted. That last game was pretty intense.
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EPT
