EPTGot it, so get banes.
[G] ZvZ Hatch first vs a 14/14 - Page 14
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
Got it, so get banes. | ||
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freewareplayer
Germany403 Posts
Maps like Shakuras or Nerazim are perfect for 15 hatch imo, creep from your natural will reach your ramp to your main really quick, and you can play sim city there with evo, roach warren + spines. Really really hard to break with lings. Maps like Taldarim however, i dont think a 15 hatch can hold a perfectly executed mass ling all in, or at least it gets a hell of a lot harder, u cant wall off ur natural somehow, and if you put up spines there he will just leg it to ur main. Personally if the ramp to my main is really close to the hatchery placement of the natural 15 hatch roach, if not, ill play ling. | ||
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Harpoon_5
25 Posts
tried it...even if you hold off the attack and keep them from getting into your main you're going to lose the expo along with map control and later the game. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 21 2011 21:53 Harpoon_5 wrote: doesnt work against mass lings tried it...even if you hold off the attack and keep them from getting into your main you're going to lose the expo along with map control and later the game. incorrect, you are microing wrong, doing something wrong and that is why you are dying to mass ling. You need to figure out what you are doing wrong because you should not lose your natural. If he 8 pooled or something you should be canceling your natural but if its a 14/14 you will hold. You can see idra/ret do this a lot of times on their streams when people go mass ling vs them and they hatch first. Am i the only one that makes his ZvZ builds map dependant? Maps like Shakuras or Nerazim are perfect for 15 hatch imo, creep from your natural will reach your ramp to your main really quick, and you can play sim city there with evo, roach warren + spines. Really really hard to break with lings. Maps like Taldarim however, i dont think a 15 hatch can hold a perfectly executed mass ling all in, or at least it gets a hell of a lot harder, u cant wall off ur natural somehow, and if you put up spines there he will just leg it to ur main. Personally if the ramp to my main is really close to the hatchery placement of the natural 15 hatch roach, if not, ill play ling. I disagree, on taldarim you can hold just fine, you will hold off mass ling you just need to engage it properly, if you are just attacking int he open, yes his mass ling will destroy you. but that should not happen. If you do it right you can hatch first on all maps (well all the current blizzard maps, idk bout some of the new maps as I vetod those immediately ^^). But its fine if you don't want to do it on some maps, don't always have to hatch first as most zergs don't always hatch first every single game, some do half the time, others do it more/less etc. Depends how comfortable they are with it. Yeah. I keep on trying togo only roach and die to lings >.> Got it, so get banes. Well if he's going only ling, like describe the situation a little bit so I am not misunderstanding. You should have lings with your roaches. You want your own lings so that they take hits from his speedlings so they can't get a full surround on your roaches. If he's doing it off of 1 base or something thats what you should be doing, if he's like hatch firsting you should make a baneling nest first, if he's 14/21 expand into ling all in you will need roach/ling to hold and it will hold as long as you make enough and don't supply block yourself. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On August 22 2011 03:41 blade55555 wrote: incorrect, you are microing wrong, doing something wrong and that is why you are dying to mass ling. You need to figure out what you are doing wrong because you should not lose your natural. If he 8 pooled or something you should be canceling your natural but if its a 14/14 you will hold. You can see idra/ret do this a lot of times on their streams when people go mass ling vs them and they hatch first. I disagree, on taldarim you can hold just fine, you will hold off mass ling you just need to engage it properly, if you are just attacking int he open, yes his mass ling will destroy you. but that should not happen. If you do it right you can hatch first on all maps (well all the current blizzard maps, idk bout some of the new maps as I vetod those immediately ^^). But its fine if you don't want to do it on some maps, don't always have to hatch first as most zergs don't always hatch first every single game, some do half the time, others do it more/less etc. Depends how comfortable they are with it. Well if he's going only ling, like describe the situation a little bit so I am not misunderstanding. You should have lings with your roaches. You want your own lings so that they take hits from his speedlings so they can't get a full surround on your roaches. If he's doing it off of 1 base or something thats what you should be doing, if he's like hatch firsting you should make a baneling nest first, if he's 14/21 expand into ling all in you will need roach/ling to hold and it will hold as long as you make enough and don't supply block yourself. What do you think of just going 15h/16g/15p and going double queen single spine out of the gate, that's what I've been doing lately (bringing queen from main down to defend obv). Only problem I have with it is against baneling the micro has to reaally tight. Is it not quite worth it or what is your opinion on it? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Chahta
United States148 Posts
Try it out before dismissing...it pretty much necessitates a perfectly timed mass drone transfer to beat it because let's be honest...few will expect the scout to become a spine with mass lings (and soon speedlings) to follow. Even then, the arriving lings can often out-micro the drones trying to kill the spine. (Cut gas at 100 for the 14/14 player and expand) I haven't faced your exact FE style, so hence I'm curious... | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 26 2011 18:00 Chahta wrote: What if the 14/14 player does mass speedling while turning their scout into a spine at your natural? I ask because once I stumbled upon the spine addition I haven't lost a game against a hatch first using 14/14 since (even on shak)...it's just a simple dance to victory in my experience...and you get to expand while containing. Try it out before dismissing...it pretty much necessitates a perfectly timed mass drone transfer to beat it because let's be honest...few will expect the scout to become a spine with mass lings (and soon speedlings) to follow. Even then, the arriving lings can often out-micro the drones trying to kill the spine. (Cut gas at 100 for the 14/14 player and expand) I haven't faced your exact FE style, so hence I'm curious... like the natural after its finished? Thats really easy to beat, you make zerglings and take 3 drones with you, thats it. Thats how I beat it when koreans try that to me. | ||
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 28 2011 02:34 kirdie wrote: Sorry but this does not work for me at all. I play vs speedling expo and I go 15/15 and his banelings get into my base like 10 seconds before my roaches hatch. Is this because i went 15/15 instead of 14/14 or what? Well I go 15/14. If your roaches are late it sounds like you aren't putting down the roach warren the second your spawning pool finishes. You have to put it down asap and not start queens. Thats the only thing I can think of because banelings never get into my base before my roaches pop (my roaches always pop either a couple seconds before they get onto my creep, or right as they touch my creep). | ||
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Flaunt
New Zealand784 Posts
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maragin
United States59 Posts
My question, within the context of your build, is: If you have the opportunity to Evo gas-block immediately upon your scouted opponent's 14/14 extractor finishing, should you? What small adjustments need to be made in this case? This often results in a delayed pool, in my experience. On top of delaying my opponent's speed, I find it provides intel on what's hatching from eggs (and if they are coming your way). I've been experimenting with this and to know what you and other high level zerg players think. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 01 2011 07:05 maragin wrote: I have been using hatch first (vs Z) builds since beta with varying success. I've found your # of lings, the roach timing, and the bane nest adjustment to be pretty good. In my experience, some maps feel better with the queen-spine defense into delayed roaches. My question, within the context of your build, is: If you have the opportunity to Evo gas-block immediately upon your scouted opponent's 14/14 extractor finishing, should you? What small adjustments need to be made in this case? This often results in a delayed pool, in my experience. On top of delaying my opponent's speed, I find it provides intel on what's hatching from eggs (and if they are coming your way). I've been experimenting with this and to know what you and other high level zerg players think. No you shouldn't evo block that is just a waste of 75 minerals + a drone. It doesn't delay his speed that match at all and imo is never worth the cost. You will know whats coming out of the larva anyway early if he 14/14 you know he'll make 4 or so lings normally they make more when they see hatch first and you won't know if he's droning after those initial lings anyway. | ||
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
I open up 15/15 and place the roach warren immediately. Still the banelings get into my base. The map is the new one (Nerazim, we both spawn at the bottom, I left he right) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 01 2011 07:19 kirdie wrote: Here is the replay: http://web394.78.cyhost.ch/files/Gruft der Nerazim (26).SC2Replay I open up 15/15 and place the roach warren immediately. Still the banelings get into my base. The map is the new one (Nerazim, we both spawn at the bottom, I left he right) well your roach warren finished at about 4:53 I think it was but you didn't start making any until 4:59. I also don't think you should place that spine so you can get more roaches but that isn't why those banes got in. your roach in your main walked right by the banelings and didn't make any shots, same with your second roach. They didn't even try to kill the banelings at all when you could have. That spine can be placed later doesn't need to be that fast. I mean really you just started roach production almost 5 seconds after roach warren finished and could only make 3 at first. Thats pretty big believe it or not. If you had your roaches that popped from the main attack the banelings maybe 1 would have made it to the mineral line but not all 3. | ||
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RedDragon571
United States633 Posts
its an economic 9 pool followed by 3 queens, wall, into roach pressure. It's been tearing up my 15 hatch on ladder, I have no good reaction to it  | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 01 2011 11:53 RedDragon571 wrote: Blade can you please tell me how to deal with this build? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=212628 its an economic 9 pool followed by 3 queens, wall, into roach pressure. It's been tearing up my 15 hatch on ladder, I have no good reaction to it well for starters he is incorrect about being guaranteed 2-3 drones if you 13/13 (which is actually 14/14). If you micro your drones right you shouldn't lose any drones at all your lings aren't that far behind and mineral walking is good to. I mean you should have an overlord over his natural checking his drone count a lot to see if he's doing heavy aggression/all in then you well not see many drones. So don't over drone and constantly check by having an overlord behind the natural. Just make sure not to supply block, or over drone. Making a couple spines isn't bad either because you normally get a ton of minerals! If his expansion is late you should always expect some sort of aggression! | ||
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RedDragon571
United States633 Posts
On September 01 2011 12:09 blade55555 wrote: well for starters he is incorrect about being guaranteed 2-3 drones if you 13/13 (which is actually 14/14). If you micro your drones right you shouldn't lose any drones at all your lings aren't that far behind and mineral walking is good to. I mean you should have an overlord over his natural checking his drone count a lot to see if he's doing heavy aggression/all in then you well not see many drones. So don't over drone and constantly check by having an overlord behind the natural. Just make sure not to supply block, or over drone. Making a couple spines isn't bad either because you normally get a ton of minerals! If his expansion is late you should always expect some sort of aggression! Thank you sir! | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
This may make me a total idiot to ask but... With absolutely no criticism of the build whatsoever, I wonder what exactly is the advantage of this build over a speedling expand (like 14 gas 13 pool, make a bunch of speedlings, expand at 20-21ish)? I keep facing the speedling expand over and over. Each time I do, yeah, I manage to defend the early pressure but so much of my energy is going into dealing with attacks that they just a-move to my base and at the end of it all, they end up with an expo as well. On top of which, if they're smart, their early speedlings just sit outside my main and ensure that I can't attack their expansion for fear of a runby. I feel that even when I hold this perfectly, it's still a wash and I have no real advantage (sometimes I'm behind with useless tech if forced into a baneling nest). We both have an expo, I can't attack them, they can't attack me, we both have roach tech, and it's back to the ZvZ gamble of who is droning more or less than the other. Just curious. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
You don't really need to make a baneling nest in this match up unless you are positive he's going all in ling then sure but otherwise you can hold with roach/ling easy as long as you know its coming. To see it coming its actually not to hard as every map now in ladder you can get an overlord behind the natural of the zerg. If you see he's not taking an expansion, expect an all in, if you see he took his expansion but see little drones you know he's all inning unless he's just being ultra defensive and over making units but that's unlikely. Spread ed overlords + always looking as his drone count is how you know if he's droning, or all inning. and usually if he's speedling expanding his roaches are later then yours and you can always fake pressure to force him to make them. I mean zvz isn't as gamble of who drones more or not if you have smart overlord placement. as said if you put an overlord behind his natural and keep taking peaks to see his drone count its not a gamble at all. If you don't do that then yeah its a gamble. | ||
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