EPT[G] ZvZ Hatch first vs a 14/14 - Page 15
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On September 05 2011 12:20 Mjolnir wrote: This may make me a total idiot to ask but... With absolutely no criticism of the build whatsoever, I wonder what exactly is the advantage of this build over a speedling expand (like 14 gas 13 pool, make a bunch of speedlings, expand at 20-21ish)? I keep facing the speedling expand over and over. Each time I do, yeah, I manage to defend the early pressure but so much of my energy is going into dealing with attacks that they just a-move to my base and at the end of it all, they end up with an expo as well. On top of which, if they're smart, their early speedlings just sit outside my main and ensure that I can't attack their expansion for fear of a runby. I feel that even when I hold this perfectly, it's still a wash and I have no real advantage (sometimes I'm behind with useless tech if forced into a baneling nest). We both have an expo, I can't attack them, they can't attack me, we both have roach tech, and it's back to the ZvZ gamble of who is droning more or less than the other. Just curious. Nestea's spine-in-main, 4 lings, 2 queens, speed gets you quite far ahead against speedling expansions. Not by a lot. If your opponent makes like ~16 lings off 14G14P (but also expands early, like 20/21 supply), and you've gone the slayerscoca hatchpoolgas (151517), 1 spine in natural, auto-banenest, 1 queen and scaling with his lings until your spine pops, you CAN'T be any more than 2 or so drones ahead at the end. A lot of the time you're behind. I've run this many times in practice (both the 100-50, and 100 + 1 drone investment necessitate this). | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
What do you do on massive maps like TDA when you're hatch first in ZvZ. I see 0 consensus amongst Korean progamers of exactly what to do, which makes it hard for me. Is there a way to play so you don't simply die to 1414 1 base baneling, yet you're not far behind against another hatch first which dies to this build? How do you approach this puzzle? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 06 2011 01:49 arbitrageur wrote: @sPsblade. What do you do on massive maps like TDA when you're hatch first in ZvZ. I see 0 consensus amongst Korean progamers of exactly what to do, which makes it hard for me. Is there a way to play so you don't simply die to 1414 1 base baneling, yet you're not far behind against another hatch first which dies to this build? How do you approach this puzzle? hatch first does not die to 14/14 baneling bust. Roaches come out before the banelings come out and all you need to do is focus those down and keep your lings alive and not let banelings kill them. If you control right you will hold it easy. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:18 blade55555 wrote: hatch first does not die to 14/14 baneling bust. Roaches come out before the banelings come out and all you need to do is focus those down and keep your lings alive and not let banelings kill them. If you control right you will hold it easy. Yep I was just wondering what you did on TDA when your first OL doesn't go in the correct direction, I guess this answers it. Aren't you scared your opponent is doing a slightly abusive hatch first where the roach opening will put you quite far behind, as every korean progamer I've seen does on TDA. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 06 2011 02:27 arbitrageur wrote: Yep I was just wondering what you did on TDA when your first OL doesn't go in the correct direction, I guess this answers it. Aren't you scared your opponent is doing a slightly abusive hatch first where the roach opening will put you quite far behind, as every korean progamer I've seen does on TDA. I drone scout on 9 when hatch firsting. So I will know if he is or not. If I see a hatch first I drone to 18 then put spawning pool, if he is 14/14'ing then I do this build exactly. The drone scout is important because I don't like doing things blindly and not knowing what my opponent is doing. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
Also more economical to go 15 hatch 15 pool, it is still safe vs 14 14, it is safe vs 12 pool even. Also 17 ovie is more economical than 16, you are getting the same amount of drones and ovies, if you go 16 or 17, but you don't need the ovie before 17 so with a 17 ovie your 16 drone will mine for longer. If you happen to go 16 ovie and not drone to at least 17 you will be larva blocked and be behind, it will give you a slightly earlier 3rd ling egg, but that is not necessary to defend anything later than ovie before pool builds; and in turn doesn't help vs pool before ovie builds, so all in all it is just worse. I also do not understand the quick bane nest and roach warren in a Hatch v Hatch. Only reason to do quick bane nest + roach warren in hatch v hatch is if you aim for a mid game all in attack with bling roach (which to note, if the infestor change goes through, will be a lot more powerful since it takes 2 fungals to kill banes then.) But even then you don't need the roach warren that early if you get bane nest; With bane nest a roach warren can go down when you start lair as an obvious and solid trigger. If you don't get bane nest you should have roach warren at 30-32 supply. To add; I also didn't see any speed being researched for lings, why not? To add more; You might want to add that against 6-7 (possibly 8) pools you can do this exact build still. The drone count you have will be able to beat both 6 and 7 pools. I have yet to do enough research on 8-10 pools, I believe 8 and 9 are doable, I think 10 pool is not. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On September 06 2011 03:22 NTTemplar wrote: Droning to 18 will leave you with a late queen, it is more economical to go 16 pool. Do you have evidence for this? Don't forget 3 drones aren't mining minerals, -100 minerals is spent on speed, -1 drone is scouting, and for all you know the 18 pooler may be getting a spine, which is another -1 drone and -100 minerals. i.e. he's going to be resources constrained not larvae constrained. On September 06 2011 03:22 NTTemplar wrote: If you don't get bane nest you should have roach warren at 30-32 supply. This is your conception of the matchup. Remember that there isn't even consensus among progamers as to the optimal warren/nest placement timing.. it varies quite wildly. The mean I see is approximately 28 supply (with some tailor supply blocking around this time, such as 26 overlord 28 baneling nest). If you claim that 30-32 supply is the best warren timing FE vs FE, you need to supply us replays of you beating 15h15g15p speed into baneling (never more than 15 drones) vs really good players. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
On September 06 2011 11:18 arbitrageur wrote: Do you have evidence for this? Don't forget 3 drones aren't mining minerals, -100 minerals is spent on speed, -1 drone is scouting, and for all you know the 18 pooler may be getting a spine, which is another -1 drone and -100 minerals. i.e. he's going to be resources constrained not larvae constrained. This is your conception of the matchup. Remember that there isn't even consensus among progamers as to the optimal warren/nest placement timing.. it varies quite wildly. The mean I see is approximately 28 supply (with some tailor supply blocking around this time, such as 26 overlord 28 baneling nest). If you claim that 30-32 supply is the best warren timing FE vs FE, you need to supply us replays of you beating 15h15g15p speed into baneling (never more than 15 drones) vs really good players. 3 drones mine slightly longer for 18 pool, but an 18 pool suffers from lacking larva, which if used on a spine like you suggested is an uneccesary big investment early. I did not follow on why you mentioned -100 minerals spent on speed when you can't get speed before you have a pool finished, how is that relevant? The time he will be larva starved is of course before his pool finishes, which a 16 pool does not have the same issue with. A 16 pool invests minerals instead of stockpiling them, compared to an 18 pool. A 17 pool might be better than 16, but both 16 and 17 are better than 18. The fact that you try argue otherwise clearly shows lack of research on the subject. With 15 hatch 18 pool, when you make that 18th drone you have 200 minerals, waiting for the 18th drone before making the pool means: you have stockpiled enough minerals to make a pool just to make a drone. And then you get the pool, get an ovie, most likely a gas and have then traded a bit extra mining time from 3 drones for a very delayed queen, not just putting you behind on eco because of the late inject but also making your opening less safe since the lack of a queen forces you to at the minimum match whatever ling can't your opponent got, instead of having less than the ling count because a queen is there to tank and damage. "Your conception of the matchup"? if you have a roach warren later than that (33 works but it is not what I recommend) you will die to at least one all in. That is a fact, and I can do a 100 ZvZ's with you were we hatch v hatch and you get a roach warren 34+ and don't get a bane nest. Can you get a roach warren earlier? Sure, but it isn't necessary to hold any all in that is currently known so why put yourself behind? "Remember that there isn't even consensus among progamers as to the optimal warren/nest placement timing" which is why I stick to what the best progamers do, not what the average pro gamer does. The majority of foreigner zergs might even still be sticking to roach/infestor in ZvZ and not get mutas, which itself speaks loudly enough about "what most progamers do" doesn't matter. Check what Nestea does in ZvZ to learn how to play ZvZ. Losira being the 2nd best ZvZ'er in the world (argueable I suppose) even got manhandled by Nestea. Also please define "really good players". | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Roaches takes 82 in game seconds to spawn after the pool finishes ling speed starts at 3:10 a hatch first roach warren starts at 3:50 So speedlings are at your natural at 5:00 but roaches arnt out until 5:15 This means the speedlings can then kill all your slowlings. Now if he continued to make lings you are dead, and will definitely lose drones even if he did not if he has good micro. These timings take into account the 9 drone scout. I think you could mitigate that 10-15 seconds by not scouting but this risks losing to early pools on two player maps. Basically because of these timings i believe this opening to be weaker than a 14/14 speedling expand. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Why would you delay your Roach Warren until 3:50 when everyone knows that Speedling hits at just after 5 min? You can easily delay lings (or Queen) and get out a Roach Warren within 5-10s of Pool finishing. That says, if I see Speedlings, I just take a 15 gas and insta-Baneling nest and those build in 20s... So that means I have banelings morphed in my mineral lines or at chokes by 5 minutes even if I am not super crisp. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
2:40 is the 200 mineral point after a 15 hatch and the build time is 65 which makes a perfectly timed pool finish at 3:45. Show me a replay where it finishes before 3:30. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 11 2011 16:06 samuraibael wrote: There is no way your pool finishes at 3:30 if you 15 hatch 14 pool with a drone scout on 9. 2:40 is the 200 mineral point after a 15 hatch and the build time is 65 which makes a perfectly timed pool finish at 3:45. Show me a replay where it finishes before 3:30. I have tested this build more times then you have and can gaurantee you get roaches out within 5 seconds after his speedling upgrade finishes. You will not die to a speedling all in at all. Don't know why you think so but you won't. Either every zerg player I play is bad (which isn't true obv) or you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of timings. | ||
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ETisME
12497 Posts
I rarely see any zvz has drone scout (in high level), what's your thought on that one? and so you also skip ling speed until later? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 11 2011 16:34 ETisME wrote: can you explain what are the builds that stops you from 15/15? Is it the early pools? I rarely see any zvz has drone scout (in high level), what's your thought on that one? and so you also skip ling speed until later? well I hatch first alot of the time I play zvz. If I don't its because I either don't feel like it for whatever reason or I scout an early pool or I know he's a very cheesy player and likes to early pool so I won't hatch first vs a player like that either. Most people don't drone scout but I hate doing builds blindly as thats very coin flippy and I hate doing coin flip builds :D | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Here is a replay where I tested them: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-230977.jpg) Roaches spawn at 5:11 The disagreement here is how big the window is between roaches getting out and speedling getting in. You say here its 5 seconds, I think its more like 10-15. The point here is how do you keep your slow lings alive vs speedlings during the time that we agree that he has speed and you dont have roaches. I thought at the time that it meant you had to pull drones (something im not sure we can afford) but now I think a broodwar style concave on the ramp while letting the hatch tank will work, but is a critical component to the build. Either way I clearly dont have "no idea what im talking about". | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On September 11 2011 16:06 samuraibael wrote: There is no way your pool finishes at 3:30 if you 15 hatch 14 pool with a drone scout on 9. 2:40 is the 200 mineral point after a 15 hatch and the build time is 65 which makes a perfectly timed pool finish at 3:45. Show me a replay where it finishes before 3:30. On September 11 2011 15:32 samuraibael wrote: What do you do if you scout a speedling expand when you hatch first? Roaches takes 82 in game seconds to spawn after the pool finishes ling speed starts at 3:10 a hatch first roach warren starts at 3:50 So speedlings are at your natural at 5:00 but roaches arnt out until 5:15 This means the speedlings can then kill all your slowlings. Now if he continued to make lings you are dead, and will definitely lose drones even if he did not if he has good micro. These timings take into account the 9 drone scout. I think you could mitigate that 10-15 seconds by not scouting but this risks losing to early pools on two player maps. Basically because of these timings i believe this opening to be weaker than a 14/14 speedling expand. On September 11 2011 17:02 samuraibael wrote: Which of my numbers are wrong? I checked them very carefully. Here is a replay where I tested them: Roaches spawn at 5:11 The disagreement here is how big the window is between roaches getting out and speedling getting in. You say here its 5 seconds, I think its more like 10-15. The point here is how do you keep your slow lings alive vs speedlings during the time that we agree that he has speed and you dont have roaches. I thought at the time that it meant you had to pull drones (something im not sure we can afford) but now I think a broodwar style concave on the ramp while letting the hatch tank will work, but is a critical component to the build. Either way I clearly dont have "no idea what im talking about". I'm not a zerg player, but I've seen hatch first into roaches, and I felt I should come in and help out here. I have Master League Mechanics, so I thought I'd just show how this works to you-- and also show why high level play is necessary for high level theorycraft. First try, I got a hatch first roach warren with 9 scout up by 4:42. I bet I could make it faster, too. A 4:42 finished warren means that your roaches will pop 27 seconds later, at 5:09. "5:15" is clearly an exageration. Bear in mind that he's also not RIGHT ON YOUR SHIT at 5:00 either, just because during the seconds before 5:00 your lings are as fast as his are, and you're on your creep. Stalling 9 seconds is easier than stalling 15 seconds. Let's see if I can optimize this more: Ok, so by the third try (on the second try i forgot my 9 overlord lawl): roach warren started at 3:44 roach warren finishes 55 seconds later at 4:39 roaches start at 4:39. roaches finish 27 seconds later at 5:06. so... i'm pretty sure the OP, who's better than I am (and i'm a terran player, not a zerg player), could shave a second off and get his 5:05 roaches. http://drop.sc/33724 BEAR IN MIND: i went 15 hatch 14 pool, as requested, and i had my scouting drone leave on 9, as requested. Things i did which might be missing from your play and delay your buildings: 1) mineral pairing-- drones only mine from the 6 closest patch until there are more than 12 drones 2) preemptive drone moving-- my drones all arrive at the location JUST as i'm hitting the number of minerals, as opposed to hitting 300 THEN going out to my natural-- this way, i can start everything on time 3) worker split -- I split my drones 3/3 which optimizes mining efficiency in those crucial early moments. summary: the guy with the dark-blue post who wrote this guide is right, roaches come out at 5:05 if your mechanics are solid. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
In blades own replays linked in the original post (tal darim) he gets his first roach out at 5:15. Its not an issue in this game though because his opponent sits with his lings at his own base for unknown reasons. If he had been harrassing at blades natural hed have killed all his slowlings before those roaches popd. I think at the minimum this needs to be addressed in the guide. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On September 11 2011 19:10 samuraibael wrote: Even if 5:05 is possible - and I think it probably depends on maps since mineral distances are probably different - that is still an extremely dangerous time for the slow lings. Speedlings at 5:00 will kill all slowlings that are in sight which is the end of the game. Your replay you only made 2 instead of the 8 that blade suggests, this does not change roach timings though. In blades own replays linked in the original post (tal darim) he gets his first roach out at 5:15. Its not an issue in this game though because his opponent sits with his lings at his own base for unknown reasons. If he had been harrassing at blades natural hed have killed all his slowlings before those roaches popd. I think at the minimum this needs to be addressed in the guide. That's a fair point; I would, however, like to note that outside of a few outliers like Nerazim crypt, the distance is actually shorter than on the map I played-- therefore, I'm fairly certain someone with better mechanics than me can get 5:05, or maybe even earlier. You'll also notice that after I started the roach warren, my APM dropped to like 0 and i basically just hung out and started a roach after the warren started to demonstrate the time. Whatever number of roaches, whether to take a 2nd gas, queens, creep tumors and all that stuff isn't things I actually know-- I was just showing the timing. How this plays into ZvZ or speedling rush or anything is beyond my ken, as I am a terran player. Just saying that coming out and saying something isn't possible and then moving the goalposts to "oh, it's possible but in this one replay it didn't happen" isn't valid. It *IS* valid to note that there is no 5:05 roach replay in the OP, though. So, I agree with you-- it would be good to have a 5:05 replay in the OP, just to avoid this kind of discussion in the future. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 11 2011 19:10 samuraibael wrote: Even if 5:05 is possible - and I think it probably depends on maps since mineral distances are probably different - that is still an extremely dangerous time for the slow lings. Speedlings at 5:00 will kill all slowlings that are in sight which is the end of the game. Your replay you only made 2 instead of the 8 that blade suggests, this does not change roach timings though. In blades own replays linked in the original post (tal darim) he gets his first roach out at 5:15. Its not an issue in this game though because his opponent sits with his lings at his own base for unknown reasons. If he had been harrassing at blades natural hed have killed all his slowlings before those roaches popd. I think at the minimum this needs to be addressed in the guide. I am pretty sure in those replays I also was doing 15 pool as I used to do that quiet a bit and that will delay the roaches by about 10 seconds. But no I don't lose my slow lings as I normally have 1 queen + 8 lings and they don't want to engage that with 8-10 speedlings. There is no way your slowlings will die as long as you don't do anything stupid with them the roaches well get out in time, you can also run your lings up the ramp well before they get to your natural if your roaches are that far behind. | ||
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