EPT[G] ZvZ Hatch first vs a 14/14 - Page 16
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Glon
United States569 Posts
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Kajarn
United States126 Posts
1. Why do you insist on only using overlords to scout drone count? I feel making 12 lings is worth it to contest map control and scout his army. Lack of spines, lots of lings, or increasing roach numbers all signal all in, which you dont need an overlord to scout. 2. Broodlords vs Ultras. I feel Broodlords cause ZvZ to be really boring and almost a waste. Broodlords are too slow and easily countered by corruptors. Where as properly used ultras are game breaking. I feel everyone gets Hive WAY too late in ZvZ. If your on 3 bases worth of gas, hive once you have 8 infestors, and the essencial upgrades seems reasonable. 4 Ultras will crush a roach/infestor based army, and I feel are far more worth the investment than hydralisks which simply die to fungal. Lastly, have you ever opened baneling nest first vs 14/14? I feel on maps like Tal'Darim, opening baneling first instead of Warren is actually safer. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 12 2011 11:25 Glon wrote: bladebladeblade... why go roaches when you can just gogo korean style ling/bane with a spine to help out early? (I reached top master Kor btw, hitting GMs) because ling/bane is lame (also I play those players to lol). On September 12 2011 13:10 Kajarn wrote: Two things I'm curious to hear your opinion on. 1. Why do you insist on only using overlords to scout drone count? I feel making 12 lings is worth it to contest map control and scout his army. Lack of spines, lots of lings, or increasing roach numbers all signal all in, which you dont need an overlord to scout. 2. Broodlords vs Ultras. I feel Broodlords cause ZvZ to be really boring and almost a waste. Broodlords are too slow and easily countered by corruptors. Where as properly used ultras are game breaking. I feel everyone gets Hive WAY too late in ZvZ. If your on 3 bases worth of gas, hive once you have 8 infestors, and the essencial upgrades seems reasonable. 4 Ultras will crush a roach/infestor based army, and I feel are far more worth the investment than hydralisks which simply die to fungal. Lastly, have you ever opened baneling nest first vs 14/14? I feel on maps like Tal'Darim, opening baneling first instead of Warren is actually safer. 1. Because I can see his drone count, seeing 5 roaches doesn't signal an all in he could be using those defensively. Its also really easy you just move the overlord, look at his drone count, bam thats it. With lings you have to get lucky to see his drone count let alone if he's all inning. if you die by 3 roaches that doesn't mean he's all inning that is a random guess a coin flip decision you are making. Most top zergs do the overlord to see the drone count because if you see very few drones you know he's all inning. 2. Thats fine but really there are timings when you go ultra's that can kill you. I have done this vs many players who try to go fast hive and use a bunch of spines as defensive. I just drop their main and they instant lose. thats fine you like ultra's more I personally like Broodlords more. No I don't' like ling/bane wars and I know I should practice it but I really prefer to avoid it ^_^ | ||
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SirCharles
United States5 Posts
As a somewhat new player I really appreciate what you do for all us zergs. You're in depth strats are a little beyond my level, but I love how you share what works with other zerg players. Keep up the awesome work! | ||
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Shrewmy
Australia199 Posts
Is there a timing I should aim for to do damage with my roach army? Say when +1 or +2 finishes? And I assume I should aim to hit that timing before he gets his spire up. I'd appreciate any recent replays you have :D | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 02 2011 17:24 Shrewmy wrote: Heya Blade, I've been having a little trouble in my mid-game, especially now that Muta is becoming more popular. Is there a timing I should aim for to do damage with my roach army? Say when +1 or +2 finishes? And I assume I should aim to hit that timing before he gets his spire up. I'd appreciate any recent replays you have :D Well to be honest lately I have been going muta's myself as I am finding it a lot more fun then going infestors and just prefer it as you get map control and stuff. But if you want to do a timing a good timing is off of 2 bases with a good amount of roach/hydra right as soon as your +2 ranged finishes is a good timing. If he got his third sneakily (or its a big map like taldarim) you should probably just do it with +1 as his third will already be down and you won't be able to really deny it. I don't have replays for this that aren't already on there as again I am going muta's myself lately and do plan on writing a guide for it once I have it more refined  . | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Otherwise 12 pool 18 Hatch is much safer. | ||
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Wout
Netherlands76 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 02 2011 20:44 aaycumi wrote: Hatchery first in ZvZ should only be done if you've scouted the opposing player doing it. Otherwise 12 pool 18 Hatch is much safer. What I disagree with this statement 100% lol. 12 pool 18 hatch in zvz your ling speed is going to be delayed and everything. 14/14/21 expand is superior to 12/18 hatch if you don't like hatch first. Thanks for making this guide. ZvZ has always been my worst matchup and it still is, but using your strategy I actually feel like there's room to improve for me, whereas before I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. It enables me to actually enjoy ZvZ again. Thats good to hear hope you win it a lot more to :D | ||
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
Or the alternative: I see a healthy amount of drones at his natural so I drone as well, then he attacks with 40+ speedlings and I lose. I watch the replay and he wasn't making more drones, he was just transferring more drones from his main to his natural to trick me. Also, your guide doesn't say anything about when you get ling speed and it also doesn't say if you ever take any drones off of gas for any amount of time. I take 2 drones off gas after I get my first 4-5 roaches and just get ling speed really late. What do you do? | ||
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 25 2011 01:28 Cambam wrote: Ok, so I've opened 15 hatch, he opens 14/14/21, he's shown 6-8 lings and I'm waiting with my overlord to scout if he makes drones at his natural. I don't see any drones, so I prepare for the all-in. It never comes and then all of sudden a ton of drones get transferred to his natural. I watch the replay and see that he just saturated his main completely before transferring and the worker count is like 17 to 29. How do I avoid this? Or the alternative: I see a healthy amount of drones at his natural so I drone as well, then he attacks with 40+ speedlings and I lose. I watch the replay and he wasn't making more drones, he was just transferring more drones from his main to his natural to trick me. Also, your guide doesn't say anything about when you get ling speed and it also doesn't say if you ever take any drones off of gas for any amount of time. I take 2 drones off gas after I get my first 4-5 roaches and just get ling speed really late. What do you do? After I make some roaches with the next 100 minerals/gas I will get ling speed and use that to scout. Personally I have yet to play someone who moves all their drones to their natural in the hopes I think they are droning then they all in so I don't know why at my level of play they don't do that but at yours they do thats weird to me so can't really tell you what to do there but hope you can get a ling in and see what he's doing. I don't normally take people off of gas due to being gas starved most of the time but if I feel the need sometimes I do take 1 guy off of gas, 2 if I have a lot of excess gas after getting ling speed. You shouldn't ever really do pure unit production unless you see he hasn't taken his natural. You should always sneak a few drones in even if you are positive he's all inning. If he's showing nothing no drones at natural, no units send a ling across the map to try and see if he shows something. Odds are he is all inning but like I said I haven't played anyone that sends alot of their drones in the main in the hopes I see it with my overlord and then drone myself so yeah xD | ||
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Sadifn
1 Post
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:15 Sadifn wrote: Hey just a quick question. What if the opponent does a 14/14 and when he sees your roaches he takes a fast third since you cannot really attack without the risk of being backstabbed by lings? If he takes a third right as soon as he see's you make roaches I would roach/ling all in and laugh as you win (if he tries a ling backstab you have lings to kill his). He can't get a third THAT fast and have proper defense ^^. | ||
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apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
its nearly impossible to take a third if he makes 7-8 mutas, and you can't kill him either cuz he'll have 5 spines + match drone production. it seems making 7-8 mutas is a good idea to deny a third, then take a third yourself. are you going to incorporate mutas in this build? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:43 apalemorning wrote: so, with the new muta builds becoming popular in zvz would you advise going mutas yourself or continue roach production into hydra/roach? its nearly impossible to take a third if he makes 7-8 mutas, and you can't kill him either cuz he'll have 5 spines + match drone production. it seems making 7-8 mutas is a good idea to deny a third, then take a third yourself. are you going to incorporate mutas in this build? I am actually going to be writing a guide zvz on muta's, Personally I am using them alot and finding them well awesome. I think its (hopefully) going to be the standard in zvz soon. I will be making a guide on that very soon for the muta play but I would go muta's . | ||
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apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
On November 05 2011 17:45 blade55555 wrote: I am actually going to be writing a guide zvz on muta's, Personally I am using them alot and finding them well awesome. I think its (hopefully) going to be the standard in zvz soon. I will be making a guide on that very soon for the muta play but I would go muta's .eta on muta guide? i'd love it so much ._. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 05 2011 18:05 apalemorning wrote: eta on muta guide? i'd love it so much ._. Was going to do it today but got lazy so going to try for tomorrow, this week guaranteed though if not tomorrow :D | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
in zvz i always go 14/14 because it's safest imo, and usually opponent goes for hatch first, so my question is it worth doing some sort of fast baneling agression with lings on very low drone count (15), or not? Considering that opponent has good defense and not gone into roaches, cause obviously i don't want to use banelings when he got roaches. Sometimes i kill him right away, but i feel it's due to his poor defense. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 05 2011 19:20 Alpina wrote: I have a question in zvz i always go 14/14 because it's safest imo, and usually opponent goes for hatch first, so my question is it worth doing some sort of fast baneling agression with lings on very low drone count (15), or not? Considering that opponent has good defense and not gone into roaches, cause obviously i don't want to use banelings when he got roaches. Sometimes i kill him right away, but i feel it's due to his poor defense. It is due to his poor defense if you kill him with 14/14 and he hatch firsts. Its possible to kill them but you have to rely on them being greedy or fucking up. If I were you and you 14/14 I would just 21 expand, drone and just play it safe no reason to do an all in unless you feel your opponent is better then your or something. But if he has good defense you are giving your opponent a free win if you try a baneling bust. | ||
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