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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:17 Freeze967 wrote: Jeez, that was fast. Thank you so very much for this. I'm an even bigger fan of you now. Do you stream? I'd like to watch you play sometime. Thanks again. Yeah I stream twitch.tv/blade55555 and all vods are there to ^^ | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Then I noticed I'm an idiot. I remember reading this thread a real while back, it's very helpful. Thank you! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:51 Mahtasooma wrote: Is that a coincidence that there's no replay against hard 14/14 speedling/bane aggression? Did you not watch the replays? :o There are at least one I remember putting it there and watching it lol. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
And the "vs speedling/bane" section is empty. | ||
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Rube_Juice
Canada348 Posts
edit: Also, I believe a well played hatch first will definitely be able to stay ahead of 14/14 despite the early speedling poke. Is it tough to maintain your composure and not take damage? Yes. Impossible? No. You only need 6-8 slow lings, 2 queens and a spine to really be fine, and if you keep your droning/injects up and don't get supply blocked you will easily shoot ahead. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 17 2012 06:16 Mahtasooma wrote: Yes I did watch the first pack, which was irrelevant (hatch first vs hatch first and a 14/14 pooler without aggression). And the "vs speedling/bane" section is empty. Did you download all the replays? I remember that some of them got corrupted a month or so after I wrote this guide and I never replaced them so if out of the 5 replays I think are uploaded, if there are none then they were corrupted and I haven't updated. Even then I updated the whole guide a page back just hoping a mod lets me edit it soon so that I may update it in the OP. Ok OP is updated and will put replays soon to showcase it! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?aipawnb51ko2p15 I haven't really played vs 14/14 to much that I can think of, I'll make sure to update this thread again with some replays as I'll go look for some of them :D. http://www.mediafire.com/?hph80ghbgo48f8i (this is vs 14/14 but no early aggression, but you can see my timings for bane nest and what not) | ||
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sugatooth
United States52 Posts
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Resist
14 Posts
I think it's really hard to hold that and i would like to see the level of sim-citying involved. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 01 2012 09:44 Resist wrote: Thanks for the thread. Like Mahtasooma, i'm also interested in replays in holding 15 Hatch against 14/14 Ling / Bane all-in when they become available if you would. I think it's really hard to hold that and i would like to see the level of sim-citying involved. Well sim-city isn't normally possible if it's a 14/14 all in. You need banelings, 1 spine and you will want to get a bane nest before speed. I will try to find some, but to be honest I haven't faced a 14/14 all in in months or more xD | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
http://drop.sc/191214 http://drop.sc/191215 http://drop.sc/191216 http://drop.sc/191217 http://drop.sc/191219 http://drop.sc/191214 http://drop.sc/191221 ^ Me holding against a GM (i think i screw up but still hold) Here's a bunch of replays of me holding 14/14 ling/bane all-in on what was the smallest 2 player ladder map, Korhal Compound. You should not sim city. For a long time I would try to sim city my spine+baneling nest, but it leaves you vulnerable, and just a few baneling hits after your spine and your baneling nest will end up eventually going down possibly. It just ends up costing you way more games than helping, really. You can defend perfectly fine with 2 queens, reactionary lings, spine, speed THEN bane nest and banes as necessary, there's no reason to make more. Against 14/14 ling/bane all-in, you can actually drone up hard. The strength of your defense with hatch first is using 2 queens to hold position on the ramp, and you simply don't inject, to save up transfuse energy for the spine, if the opponent doesnt expand by the time the queens pop, and if the opponent went 14/14/21, then you just inject with only 1 queen for the time being (unless you want to be greedier...). Well sim-city isn't normally possible if it's a 14/14 all in. You need banelings, 1 spine and you will want to get a bane nest before speed. I will try to find some, but to be honest I haven't faced a 14/14 all in in months or more xD You really think a bane nest before speed? If you get bane nest before speed, your speed is just incredibly late and you are in a bad spot for mid-game scouting and can't cut corners due to knowing what the oponnent is doing. I think you know a lot better than I do, but I kind of feel what you are saying is a typo. Right? Or would it really be a lot easier with bane before speed? Anyways, here's what I do, and what I observe in pros, with hatch first vs 14/14 ling/bane all-in (basically, the opponent did not go hatch first and there isn't a stream of lings running towards you or already in your base by the time your hatch/pool pop) - 2 queens asap - Reactionary lings equal to what opponent makes (you see 4 lings stream out, you make 4 lings - if he makes 8 lings but doesnt send them out, its okay, because map distance and his lings will be slow until your queens pop). - Spine in main (if you make it in the natural, it's super risky and if you dont get it up, you can lose, or really have a tough fucking time, you need the spine so you can transfuse it, and if you are forced to cancel and remake, you may lose, since you can't transfuse a morphing building). It will be up in plenty of time to walk down against 14/14 ling bane all-in, no reason to make it in natural anyways... - Speed, then baneling nest. It's super super super important that you start these the second you get 100, 50 gas, or else you will miss timings and may die. Besides the initial reactionary lings, you just drone up, even if the opponent is clearly doing a 14/14 ling bane all-in because he didn't expand by the time queens pop (even if he's doing a roach or speedling all-in, preparing as if he was doing a 14/14 lingbane all-in will hold these all-ins even easier). remember of course, send your initial overlord to opponent's natural, and 9 overlord in front of his base. If you don't have to make any initial reactionary lings because he doesn't send out any lings right away, just make up to 4 lings to complete when baneling nest pops, morph them into banes, and any mass attack will be handled easily. The key is to have the queens on hold position at the ramp. If you go speed, baneling nest, in that order, then a 14/14 ling/bane all-in has a few timings that just can't kill you: 1. He will not have enough banelings to 1-shot a spine before your baneling nest finishes 2. He will not have enough ling/bane to break through 2 queens with transfuse before your baneling nest finishes 3. He will not have speed before you have 2 queens on hold position blocking the ramp, with a completed spine If he doesn't expand, don't inject. If he does expand, just only inject with 1 queen. Either way, both queens need to be at the bottom of the ramp until you have 4 banelings morphed, morphed immediately when bane nest finishes. I have lost a lot of stupid games because I would walk back one of my queens right when baneling nest finishes, and he runs right past 4 morphing banelings on the ramp, so finish the banes before removing from the ramp. But otherwise, you can just drone up hardcore, even if the opponent is clearly all-inning. Generally, you made 4-6 initial lings to deal with the opponent making 4-6 initial lings (the reason this works is because you are on creep, at the ramp, et cetera, and can set up defensively in a great concave so you will always win the 1 on 1 ratio ling vs ling engagement at the start, and he cant make more than 8 lings before queen pops anyways). And if you didnt make 4-6 initial lings just make 4 when bane nest pops. Note that this does take a LOT of practice to get used to. It's easy to hold once you figure it out. Also, a lot of what I said is just what I do - it's perfectly reasonable someone out there might say "wtf belial scrub dont morph banes until you see mass lings stream out" or "wtf only need 2 banes", but the jist is the same, and anything less than what I said is just being greedier. At least for starting out, following what I said should work. Of course, this doesn't work on maps with no ramp to the main, which is why you veto such shitty maps, and never hatch first on those maps. I think people have learned now that hatch first is not done at all on maps like TDA because you just can't safely play it, and you won't be ahead of drones. If you try to do something like, say, a roach hatch first or baneling hatch firt, you will fall behind in drones to a 14/14/21 who just drones up (unless you play dishonestly i guess...). | ||
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Kamasue
United States7 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 07 2012 03:35 Kamasue wrote: I'm curious, have you tried going hatch first against a fast +1 speedling all-in? It's my favorite build to use at the moment, but I'm not sure if the build is actually strong, or if my opponents are just bad at going hatch first =\ Do you do this off of 1 base or 2? In general I would say its your opponents being bad and not making banelings or something. Like for me I never lose to that as I have banelings and ling support will crush any sort of ling all in and if you are doing this off of 1 base it should be crushed even worse as the zerg on 2 should be expecting some sort of all in. | ||
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Kamasue
United States7 Posts
On July 07 2012 03:38 blade55555 wrote: Do you do this off of 1 base or 2? In general I would say its your opponents being bad and not making banelings or something. Like for me I never lose to that as I have banelings and ling support will crush any sort of ling all in and if you are doing this off of 1 base it should be crushed even worse as the zerg on 2 should be expecting some sort of all in. 1 base, though I build up enough minerals to expand and the hatch finishes at the same time that the push hits. +1, speed, and ~30 lings finish at around 6:00. Edit: I watched the replay you have for the hatch first v 14/14, and it honestly didn't look like you could have held it. Granted, you didn't see anything that suggested you needed banes ASAP, but I don't know what kind of information you really got from your scouting overlord as far as timings are concerned; it doesn't seem like you could have seen anything to suggest whether or not your opponent was going for the push I described above. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 07 2012 05:28 Kamasue wrote: 1 base, though I build up enough minerals to expand and the hatch finishes at the same time that the push hits. +1, speed, and ~30 lings finish at around 6:00. Yeah in general your ling all in build should never work not sure why the people youa re playing aren't preparing for some 1 base all in. It doesn't matter if you take an expo after you are so far behind if he has banelings and defends properly. I don't see that at my level cause that +1 speedling off of 1 base is so easily countered xD. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Think about it. You are mining 100 gas for +1 - that's enough for the other player to get 2 banelings and baneling nest. 2 banelings is a lot stronger than +1 lings. He'll just respond as if you are doing a ling/bane all-in, and get defensive banelings. Sorry to say, a +1 ling all-in is just a build that isn't really viable at higher levels of play. Just watch pro gamers ZvZ, with hatch first their baneling nest is up by 6:00. I also did an upgrade test in unit tester, and I believe 1/0 lings aren't much better than 0/0 lings against roaches, it still takes 4 lings per roach (which is still great, lings own roaches, just not some great critical hit number comes from having +1). Or maybe 3, something like that, roaches suck in small numbers against any kind of ling. | ||
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