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On April 30 2011 02:56 SacredSystem wrote:
i dont know if this has been stated but ive had mobility problems when using a roach hydra army, if my opponent goes muta i find it hard to leave my base because then the faster muta can loot my base, i understand that a good creep highway will make my army faster and thus reduce the mobility issues, but what ratio of static defenses(queens included) would you recomend to defend from the mutas,
btw thanks for the thread i juat switched to zerg and zvz seems to be my hardest match up, more so than toss and terran
it also seems to be that im playing against more zerg opponents now that i switched then i ever did when playing as toss
Too defend against muta's what you need is hydra/infestor/ling/roach is the composition I go for. i make a couple spores at both bases, drone pretty hard sense he can't kill me. Take a third, and hold with hydra, then get infestors. They normally get pretty scared when they see infestors, and you just get a huge roach/hydra ball with 5 or so infestors and you should be able to pretty much A move him.
Now have an oversee'r with you incase he tries burrow banelings or something like that!
Glad you liked the guide, I just rarely face muta openings and know thats what I would do.
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ja i just switched to zerg and my understanding is that teching to mutas is inferior to hydras, because hydras have greater range, cost less, although hydras have less hp, and a hydra den takes less time to build, yet i lose to mutas all the time,
it either seems to be mutas or speedling all ins, i lose nearly every zvz and somehow i end up playing literaly 5 zvzs in a row
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On April 30 2011 03:49 SacredSystem wrote:
ja i just switched to zerg and my understanding is that teching to mutas is inferior to hydras, because hydras have greater range, cost less, although hydras have less hp, and a hydra den takes less time to build, yet i lose to mutas all the time,
it either seems to be mutas or speedling all ins, i lose nearly every zvz and somehow i end up playing literaly 5 zvzs in a row
Go infestors, then hydras. Then you can lock down the mutas so they die instead of flying away doing more harass.
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On April 30 2011 03:49 SacredSystem wrote:
ja i just switched to zerg and my understanding is that teching to mutas is inferior to hydras, because hydras have greater range, cost less, although hydras have less hp, and a hydra den takes less time to build, yet i lose to mutas all the time,
it either seems to be mutas or speedling all ins, i lose nearly every zvz and somehow i end up playing literaly 5 zvzs in a row
Well with muta's infestor/hydra works great! Also for those speedling all ins I honestly get a baneling nest almost every zvz I play at some point, and make 3-4 banelings (helps vs roach/ling all in, speedlings all in). Just hard counters the speedling all in (which I get alot too) and gives you a free win! ^_^
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Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.
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On April 30 2011 06:34 SqueamishCow wrote:
Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.
Those are some good points, I do plan on putting more depth into this guide as I thought it was going too not be read anymore  . So gonna do some more additions/modifications!
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On April 30 2011 06:34 SqueamishCow wrote:
Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.
With this build you directly concede mapcontrol, and take on the role of the defender and adapter. Just like versus Terran, there will be holes where you cannot scout him. However, if you've timed your lair well enough and have good overlord placements to check his natural, there is no way in hell he can have enough mutas to deal with two queens before your overlord speed kicks in.
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On April 30 2011 05:10 blade55555 wrote:
Well with muta's infestor/hydra works great! Also for those speedling all ins I honestly get a baneling nest almost every zvz I play at some point, and make 3-4 banelings (helps vs roach/ling all in, speedlings all in). Just hard counters the speedling all in (which I get alot too) and gives you a free win! ^_^
ive been trying to just go roach because its less micro intensive, you can just hold the ramp (its something ive seen moonglade do) , the problem is i havent quite figured out the timings, but i kinda figured id have to tech to roach eventually to make up the bulk of my army, plus roaches are more versatile in zvz then banes (imo),
would using hydras in the bulk of my army work out or would they lose to a roach army?
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I think that it's important to note that it's entirely possible to do a 16 hatch in zvz on certain maps, while defending with only like 10 lings 4 queens and 4-5 spine crawlers (with proper sim city of course, an evo chamber is required most of the time to help out). Anyways, I've been playing using Spanishwa's hatch first mentality, and it's been working out extremely well as of thus far. You can delay your gas/lings so much that your opponent will be so far behind in his initial attack that he won't be able to recover, making a 14gas/14pool esentially all in. The only problem that I'm having with the build at this point is some 8 pools (usually remedied by canceling the hatch, throwing a pool down, and microing), and doing it on some maps (tal'darim and xel in particular are obnoxious to do it on).
Because of the wider chokes on these maps, you either have to commit more to lings or queens, or build more static defenses like evo chambers or spines (both routes cutting severely into your economic advantage). The whole idea of the build through my eyes is cut gas until you're basically fully saturated off of two bases then explode into gas production with infestor/roach/upgrades, which ends up leaving you ahead by 20-30 supply at like 10 or 9 minutes in if you didn't take a lot of damage from early pressure. The major difference between our builds being the delaying of gas, of course, because you can use the larva that you use for roaches on drones instead, because the roaches aren't really necessary.
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On April 30 2011 06:59 Endymion wrote:
I think that it's important to note that it's entirely possible to do a 16 hatch in zvz on certain maps, while defending with only like 10 lings 4 queens and 4-5 spine crawlers (with proper sim city of course, an evo chamber is required most of the time to help out). Anyways, I've been playing using Spanishwa's hatch first mentality, and it's been working out extremely well as of thus far. You can delay your gas/lings so much that your opponent will be so far behind in his initial attack that he won't be able to recover, making a 14gas/14pool esentially all in. The only problem that I'm having with the build at this point is some 8 pools (usually remedied by canceling the hatch, throwing a pool down, and microing), and doing it on some maps (tal'darim and xel in particular are obnoxious to do it on).
Because of the wider chokes on these maps, you either have to commit more to lings or queens, or build more static defenses like evo chambers or spines (both routes cutting severely into your economic advantage). The whole idea of the build through my eyes is cut gas until you're basically fully saturated off of two bases then explode into gas production with infestor/roach/upgrades, which ends up leaving you ahead by 20-30 supply at like 10 or 9 minutes in if you didn't take a lot of damage from early pressure. The major difference between our builds being the delaying of gas, of course, because you can use the larva that you use for roaches on drones instead, because the roaches aren't really necessary.
I have faced spanishiwa's zvz build where he delays gas a lot I think once or twice. They made spines at natural (like 5-6 after they saw me making lots of roach/ling). So all I did was drop their main and win as they have nothing too defend that. I feel in zvz that is spanishiwa's biggest weakness with his late game till like 40? I don't like his build and will never plan on using it as I just feel it has a lot of weaknesses but thats just me.
ive been trying to just go roach because its less micro intensive, you can just hold the ramp (its something ive seen moonglade do) , the problem is i havent quite figured out the timings, but i kinda figured id have to tech to roach eventually to make up the bulk of my army, plus roaches are more versatile in zvz then banes (imo),
would using hydras in the bulk of my army work out or would they lose to a roach army?
If you look at the build, the timings on when too get roaches are there (and replays too boot ^_^). thats why I do this build, I hate ling/bane wars unless i'm sick of zvz for the day. A roach/hydra will beat a pure roach army. The thing is I am still unsure as too which is better, roach/hydra or roach/infestor. I have beaten roach/infestor with roach hydra more then i have lost with it, and lost too roach/hydra going roach/infestor.
As of right now I am not quiet sure whats better, I think on small choke maps like xelnaga/typhon peaks, infestors are better, on bigger maps I think roach/hydra is better. Again still dont' know for sure but I do know roach/hydra crushes pure roach. Just don't get hydra's too early or you will die too an all in roach bust or something like that.
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On April 30 2011 06:34 SqueamishCow wrote:
Great guide, I think the defending section could use a little more specifics though. For instance, in what situations are spines warranted? Also, what if your opponent does the 14/14 but only makes enough lings to get map control/feign pressure, then expands himself? Your speed is gonna late with this obviously, so he can deny scouting for a good time. How to deal with ling counters if you decide to put pressure back on? Sorry for all the questions, again thanks for the great guide.
I updated the guide a little bit for most of your questions.
If you decide too put pressure on, and see his ling counter you should have ling speed yourself. So just send your lings back too deal with it. Or you can just make a few banes and leave them back. Both ways work great!
Questions are fine, I love helping when I can as I remember what it was like too have trouble with builds and asking questions and not getting answers sometimes. I try my best anyway hope it helps! 
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How does this build work on maps with wide entrances to the main (i.e. Tal'Darim Altar and Scrap Station)? I have had trouble getting enough roaches/queens to block my main entrance in cases like these, although I may have to try it a few more times to perfect my micro. Do you have any advice for dealing with wider-than-normal entrances to the main using this build, or is it best to go speedling/bling in cases like this?
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On May 01 2011 04:44 skypig wrote:
How does this build work on maps with wide entrances to the main (i.e. Tal'Darim Altar and Scrap Station)? I have had trouble getting enough roaches/queens to block my main entrance in cases like these, although I may have to try it a few more times to perfect my micro. Do you have any advice for dealing with wider-than-normal entrances to the main using this build, or is it best to go speedling/bling in cases like this?
I responded too this by your PM! I am going to copy paste that here in case other people can see it.
Hi, yes I do hatch first on taldarim and scrap station. The only times they can really run past your roach/ling should be right when your initial roaches pop. This isn't really as big of a deal as you would think. All you really need to do is grab your drones, and have them "move" too your natural while you wait for your roach/ling too save them. Then just move them back.
If your out right losing all your roaches and stuff too the surround your not making enough roaches. It sounds too me like your getting your queens as soon as your pool finishes. If you are you should be delaying those queens for a decent amount of times as you don't need them asap.
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I've been using this build on ladder and have great success with it. Thanks alot blade!
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On May 14 2011 22:11 QQAura wrote:
I've been using this build on ladder and have great success with it. Thanks alot blade!
Thanks! Glad its helpling.
bumping this to let everyone know I have updated the guide a bit to modern on what I do with my transition as well.
Hope this helps people out and thanks again guys for the positive feedback ^_^
Added lots of new replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4czg0st3z8mkdpf Also in the OP!
Also if a mod could edit this as a zerg vs zerg guide or something sense this guide isn't just hatch first vs 14/14 anymore .
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Hey blade, obviously I love all your guides because I repeatedly say so. However, I've been having a lot of trouble against a 14/14 where they put a spine in my natural. What do you recommend?
Much love <3
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I know I post to answer an old OP, and it has probably been mentioned, anyways, if I scout a 15h when I 15h I get a very fast gas and delay my pool so that I get speed as soon as it finishes, skipping roaches for the time being. The point is to keep him blind with speedlings so that I can either speedling all-in if he does not commit to defense, or econ up and gain an advantage due to his early warren if he gets enough roaches.
At least this is my observation around 900-1000 master on yurop servers.
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On May 31 2011 01:07 PD wrote:
I know I post to answer an old OP, and it has probably been mentioned, anyways, if I scout a 15h when I 15h I get a very fast gas and delay my pool so that I get speed as soon as it finishes, skipping roaches for the time being. The point is to keep him blind with speedlings so that I can either speedling all-in if he does not commit to defense, or econ up and gain an advantage due to his early warren if he gets enough roaches.
At least this is my observation around 900-1000 master on yurop servers.
What I do in hatch first vs hatch first is get a baneling nest and it hard counters any speedling all in he does (you will have a few roaches if you see he's all in speedling). You don't really need map control because your overlords see everything. Nothing but queens can hit overlords early and you should have them spread out everywhere so you can see if he tries to take a super fast third for example.
You should also have your overlord checking the mineral line so that if you see few drones you know he's all inning and can prepare. On most maps you can put your overlord in a spot where the queen can't hit it but you can move it up to see the drone count later on in the game.
if your on a map that does not allow this sacrificing an overlord to see is worth it ^^.
On May 30 2011 17:19 Indrium wrote:
Hey blade, obviously I love all your guides because I repeatedly say so. However, I've been having a lot of trouble against a 14/14 where they put a spine in my natural. What do you recommend?
Much love <3
You should bring about 2-3 drones with your lings. Thats how I old it off anyway and so far has worked every time for me. Again glad to see you love the guide :D.
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What I do in hatch first vs hatch first is get a baneling nest and it hard counters any speedling all in he does (you will have a few roaches if you see he's all in speedling). You don't really need map control because your overlords see everything. Nothing but queens can hit overlords early and you should have them spread out everywhere so you can see if he tries to take a super fast third for example.
I do the same, some lings and some banelings. With map control I mean I have the threat of a ling backstab to force his more expensive roach army to remain passive should he go for roaches. if he doesn't go for roaches I just play defensive baneling.
Bottom line of my argument is I think you should get the gas faster and the pool slightly later vs 15h than you propose.
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On May 31 2011 02:36 PD wrote:Show nested quote +What I do in hatch first vs hatch first is get a baneling nest and it hard counters any speedling all in he does (you will have a few roaches if you see he's all in speedling). You don't really need map control because your overlords see everything. Nothing but queens can hit overlords early and you should have them spread out everywhere so you can see if he tries to take a super fast third for example. I do the same, some lings and some banelings. With map control I mean I have the threat of a ling backstab to force his more expensive roach army to remain passive should he go for roaches. if he doesn't go for roaches I just play defensive baneling. Bottom line of my argument is I think you should get the gas faster and the pool slightly later vs 15h than you propose.
Well I do get my pool later if I see he is hatch firsting as well. But I still get my gas later because I don't need it that early. As soon as pool finishes and I get 2 queens i get a baneling nest, then a roach warren and with my initial lings I make them banelings and if I think he's gonna do some ling pressure make a couple roaches so he can't just send 1 ling at a time to snipe the banelings. I find it more effective then doing ling/bane as I hate ling/bane especially vs ling/bane :D
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EPT
