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Hi!
I used this strat to great effect. My main question is, how do you react to another hatch first? I'm not good nor do I ladder alot, I mainly play customs with friends who are not zergs, so it would be the matchup I'm the worst at. On ladder, everyone goes speedlings (and all in on my hatch first) so I won alot, but during a cw my opponent went hatch first and he out eco'd me early the first game, and speedling crushed me the second when I tried to drone more. When watching the replays, he had superior economy both games (due to the fact that his queens were up way earlier than mine probably).
I seem to not be able to "feel" his economy on hatch first vs hatch first. Should I double queen early and make defensive banelings instead of an early roach warren (then quickly transition into roaches while droning a bit and scouting for all ins)?
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On March 26 2011 18:38 Talaf wrote:
Hi!
I used this strat to great effect. My main question is, how do you react to another hatch first? I'm not good nor do I ladder alot, I mainly play customs with friends who are not zergs, so it would be the matchup I'm the worst at. On ladder, everyone goes speedlings (and all in on my hatch first) so I won alot, but during a cw my opponent went hatch first and he out eco'd me early the first game, and speedling crushed me the second when I tried to drone more. When watching the replays, he had superior economy both games (due to the fact that his queens were up way earlier than mine probably).
I seem to not be able to "feel" his economy on hatch first vs hatch first. Should I double queen early and make defensive banelings instead of an early roach warren (then quickly transition into roaches while droning a bit and scouting for all ins)?
Hi, lately this is how I have been doing hatch first is: (this is if they hatch first just remember)
15 hatch
16 pool
overlord on 17-18
Get gas guiser at about spawning pool half health
2 queens as soon as spawning pool finishes
make 4 lings
make a baneling nest asap
Use 1 of the 4 lings to scout your opponents base. If you see he's making lots of lings, make more lings yourself and make banes.
Also throw down a roach warren (haven't "perfected" a timing but I have been able to get some roaches out and have about 4-5 banelings before a speedling all in comes).
This is just my personal preference as so many noobs love zergling all inning in this mu when both hatch firsting (and if someone is one of those sorry truth hurts!  ).
Hope this helps you out a bit glad you like the guide!
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Wow thanks a lot for the quick response ^_^ And I'm happy cause that's not far from what I was thinking, my game sense must be getting better :D Would you make the bnest before the speedling upgrade?
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 26 2011 18:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 18:38 Talaf wrote:
Hi!
I used this strat to great effect. My main question is, how do you react to another hatch first? I'm not good nor do I ladder alot, I mainly play customs with friends who are not zergs, so it would be the matchup I'm the worst at. On ladder, everyone goes speedlings (and all in on my hatch first) so I won alot, but during a cw my opponent went hatch first and he out eco'd me early the first game, and speedling crushed me the second when I tried to drone more. When watching the replays, he had superior economy both games (due to the fact that his queens were up way earlier than mine probably).
I seem to not be able to "feel" his economy on hatch first vs hatch first. Should I double queen early and make defensive banelings instead of an early roach warren (then quickly transition into roaches while droning a bit and scouting for all ins)? Hi, lately this is how I have been doing hatch first is: (this is if they hatch first just remember) 15 hatch 16 pool overlord on 17-18 Get gas guiser at about spawning pool half health 2 queens as soon as spawning pool finishes make 4 lings make a baneling nest asap Use 1 of the 4 lings to scout your opponents base. If you see he's making lots of lings, make more lings yourself and make banes. Also throw down a roach warren (haven't "perfected" a timing but I have been able to get some roaches out and have about 4-5 banelings before a speedling all in comes). This is just my personal preference as so many noobs love zergling all inning in this mu when both hatch firsting (and if someone is one of those sorry truth hurts! ). Hope this helps you out a bit glad you like the guide!
That's pretty interesting. A lot of the time hatch first vs hatch first goes to ling/baneling and stays there, like a 2 base version of a 14/14 vs 14/14. This seems like a good way to get out of it and transition into a midgame roach/infestor
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On March 26 2011 18:58 Talaf wrote:
Wow thanks a lot for the quick response ^_^ And I'm happy cause that's not far from what I was thinking, my game sense must be getting better :D Would you make the bnest before the speedling upgrade?
I get my speedling upgrade very late with this style I am doing lately. Its something I have been messing around with my past few zvz's where we both hatch first.
That's pretty interesting. A lot of the time hatch first vs hatch first goes to ling/baneling and stays there, like a 2 base version of a 14/14 vs 14/14. This seems like a good way to get out of it and transition into a midgame roach/infestor
Yes I hate speed/bane wars as 1 mis micro can cost you the game. I prefer the more macro oriented style of play and roach/bane well hold all in lings easily as long as you make sure your banes kill more then 1 ling
still can be a little micro intensive not letting your banes die to 1 ling at a time but not very much not even close to the amount on ling/bane vs ling/bane ^_^
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i've actually learned a lot in this thread. zvz is always gonna be a volatile matchup though.
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ive started seeing player do this more offen and its great!
Totally awsome!
I like to fe twice and the timing of this bo blindness i can do 1level saturation perbase bèfore i gota mass roach n tech.
Queens are starting to be less required on certin maps and match ups, which is nice it forces oppoments to react and scout to zerg as the best wins ive had now are that sort of no queen, roach defend into 2 base queen boom,
Thanks blade cu ön bn?
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What variant do you do on tal darim altar and scrap station? the ramps there are too big to block with a queen and two roaches.
Edit: Especially on Tal Darim, I watched your replay on scrap.
On TD the ramps are huge and he has a lot of paths into your base, I feel like you need more mobility.
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On March 28 2011 16:12 NeonFox wrote:
What variant do you do on tal darim altar and scrap station? the ramps there are too big to block with a queen and two roaches.
Edit: Especially on Tal Darim, I watched your replay on scrap.
On TD the ramps are huge and he has a lot of paths into your base, I feel like you need more mobility.
Um I do the same thing. You have to also know that the rush distance is a lot bigger. I personally make 1 spine crawler and then get enough roaches to wall it off for the most part. I haven't played too many zvz's on taldar and the 3 I have we all hatch firsted that I can recall right now.
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This build is very good  but few things:
1. How I should defend for example on Tal darim altar if he just runs with speedlings though the roaches and focus fires all drones on main? I of course move drones to expansion but he kills few, then when I come to main he runs to expansion and then it's like 5 drones for me and I can't do anything vs. that.
2. What opening you are doing when opponent is going expansion too? Banelings or roaches?
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On April 02 2011 17:16 Alpina wrote:This build is very good but few things: 1. How I should defend for example on Tal darim altar if he just runs with speedlings though the roaches and focus fires all drones on main? I of course move drones to expansion but he kills few, then when I come to main he runs to expansion and then it's like 5 drones for me and I can't do anything vs. that. 2. What opening you are doing when opponent is going expansion too? Banelings or roaches?
1. You can normally stop them as you can wall off pretty well with 8 roaches and an evo chamber and using queens to help. Normally zergs don't want too risk losing all their lings to hopefully get in. Although I have only played 3 zvz's on it with 2 going hatch first, and 1 going 14/14 and he didn't want to risk losing all his lings.
2. If we both hatch first I have been going banelings first, and roaches. So I get bane nest first, then roach warren, morph about 6 banelings as it seems most zergs go all in speedling and this hard counters it and if they don't it doesn't put you behind at all.
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on scrap and tal darim u just 15 hatch into speedling. must safer unless you're really good at holding with roaches (im not)
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Nice guide! I've been looking to do more FE openings ZvZ, but it's felt too risky. This will definitely help
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On April 03 2011 09:51 apalemorning wrote:
on scrap and tal darim u just 15 hatch into speedling. must safer unless you're really good at holding with roaches (im not)
The problem with that is if they go fast banelings you have no defense against it except like a queen if your going into speedling.
There are other ways if you don't like roaches, baneling nest and slow lings, or mass spine crawler which dimaga does.
Nice guide! I've been looking to do more FE openings ZvZ, but it's felt too risky. This will definitely help
thanks glad to see lots of positive feedback for this ^_^
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You are a saint. zvz just got a bit less retarded.
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Hm hm..this might help some ppl...but it is a well known fact that you can hold FE vs 14/14...
the <10pools are a problem.
And also there are many many ways to hold, not just this 1
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On April 03 2011 18:01 T0fuuu wrote:
You are a saint. zvz just got a bit less retarded.
hah yeah I hate zvz now due to patch. Infestor play isn't fun to me :/.
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I do this build all the time. the one problem i have is when my opponent stops production and just starts massing lings....with a very large amount he can just kil my hatchery and run away...even if he loses a ton of lings
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just held an 11 pool with a fast expo this build order rox, drones had to get a little messy, but i had my expo up and lings n the way when he got there, so i still felt like i had won already
awsome, thanks to blade
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I wanna discuss this further:
The advantage 14/14 has over this kind of roach defense is that with a much faster speed one has a lot easier time scouting, and with hatch first you are forced to make some blind roaches that may turn out to be useless giving time to catch up in economy.
The way korean zergs of the nestea school play this is massing slow roaches without lair and going for a timing attack that hits before the 14/14 player can get his own roach tech kickin in (or, forcing him to get roaches before closing the economic gap).
In my experience though you can't do this on the new larger maps, because they have enough time to spine up and stall while your roaches move their slow asses across the map. To me it seems that, paradoxically, this makes 14/14 stronger than hatch first on large maps. Have you found a hatch first opening that is
a) safe against pool first and,
b) can consistently kill a pool first build?
because if there is none, pool first seems to be less fragile and easier to play without any real weakness.
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EPT
