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On March 12 2011 04:35 Numy wrote:
I've been toying around with 15hatch a lot on ladder and in practice but I've been going a speedling opening to still try maintain map control. With a roach opening how do you respond to a personal that just pumps drones and expands while getting his roach den up later? Will you just pump enough roaches to completely shut down speedlings then go back to drone production while being defensive or is there some way to pressure him?
So to clarify he's not making any speedlings? Because if he's got speedlings to be aggressive so you don't drone he's not making drones either but if he's only making 2-4 lings or none and just pumping drones I'll pump drones too.
Lately I have been tending to send 1 of my lings immediately to my opponents base to make sure he's making a ton of lings or something of the sort. His speed won't be done when you get to his base with the ling. If you see a lot of lings then you know he's not pumping drones, if he has few lings you'll be able to run up the ramp and see what he's doing.
If your meaning he just makes a handful of lings and then starts drone pumping you still make drones but your makign units too. You'll make maybe a drone or 2 while making roaches (after the initial set pop). He won't have his expo done so you don't have to worry about him starting to drone and getting ahead. You won't be very far behind in the drone count none the less as long as your still making drones while making units if you think he's going to be aggressive.
After my speedling upgrade finishes I then send a ling to his base to see his drone count (this is assuming he's doing speedling expand). If I see few drones I know he's all inning with lings, if I see good amount of drones I know I can drone up and be fine.
So far my speedling upgrade has always finished before their all in attack and I have been able to prepare for it every time in my past few zvz's.
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Oh ok I see what you mean. Yea I was talking about him making lings and denying you map vision then pumping drones since you are in the dark. When I was opening roaches I skipped ling speed all together. Your play makes a lot of sense.
Thanks man.
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I know it's off topic slightly but if you find out he's going 15 hatch as well, do you prefer to open up with speedlings or roaches?
I've been advised to open speedling to harass the hatchery and get map control against a 15 hatch -> roach opener. However, I noticed recently many players are now delaying transferring drones to the expansion until they have enough roaches to cover both the ramp and the expo, so my speedlings aren't doing much except damaging the hatch.
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Ok, if you have the time I have a few questions.
First, I watched the replay versus the ling/roach speed all in a couple, times and from your perspective. I am curious if I am missing any indicators for why you starting droning about making your first 6 roaches. I know you only scouted the 14/14, and then you only saw 8 lings pressuring your base. Was it just the fact that he wasn't reinforcing with more lings? I was just wondering because sometimes I have trouble if they are simply turtling in their base with 6-8 lings on their ramp (to deny scouting), and massing speedlings in their base. Obviously droning there was a good choice as he was teching to speed roaches.
Second, I guess a similar question, if you see them taking their expo I am always worried about making too many units. With speedlings they have map control, and I would like to think I could use my roaches (if I overmake them) to pressure him into making more units, but I don't feel I can move out with a small amount as the threat of counterattacks is too high. It seemed like, (for example in the xel naga game) , you just made a mix of drones and roaches after scouting expo.
Finally, do you feel some of the maps make it too hard to do? The game on scrap station was good, I thought that might be very hard to hold versus a mass ling style, rather than the ling/bling he did, as the ramp is so large and the expo is pretty far from the main.
Thanks for you help, I found the replays very useful!
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On March 12 2011 07:19 obbob wrote:
I know it's off topic slightly but if you find out he's going 15 hatch as well, do you prefer to open up with speedlings or roaches?
I've been advised to open speedling to harass the hatchery and get map control against a 15 hatch -> roach opener. However, I noticed recently many players are now delaying transferring drones to the expansion until they have enough roaches to cover both the ramp and the expo, so my speedlings aren't doing much except damaging the hatch.
I get speedling upgrade pretty fast but I also get a roach warren. I still prefer roaches but I get my speedling upgrade as fast as him if he goes 15 hatch as well so that I can scout. If I see lots of lings I make pure speedling/roach and will hold his speedling all in if thats his plan.
It goes by preference personally thats how I open up is speedlings for scouting but make roaches over speedlings if needed because if not it would just turn into a ling/bane fest and I hate those :D
On March 12 2011 07:19 MaxwelsDemoN wrote:
Ok, if you have the time I have a few questions.
First, I watched the replay versus the ling/roach speed all in a couple, times and from your perspective. I am curious if I am missing any indicators for why you starting droning about making your first 6 roaches. I know you only scouted the 14/14, and then you only saw 8 lings pressuring your base. Was it just the fact that he wasn't reinforcing with more lings? I was just wondering because sometimes I have trouble if they are simply turtling in their base with 6-8 lings on their ramp (to deny scouting), and massing speedlings in their base. Obviously droning there was a good choice as he was teching to speed roaches.
Second, I guess a similar question, if you see them taking their expo I am always worried about making too many units. With speedlings they have map control, and I would like to think I could use my roaches (if I overmake them) to pressure him into making more units, but I don't feel I can move out with a small amount as the threat of counterattacks is too high. It seemed like, (for example in the xel naga game) , you just made a mix of drones and roaches after scouting expo.
Finally, do you feel some of the maps make it too hard to do? The game on scrap station was good, I thought that might be very hard to hold versus a mass ling style, rather than the ling/bling he did, as the ramp is so large and the expo is pretty far from the main.
Thanks for you help, I found the replays very useful!
1. I have vision almost over the whole map for the most part due to overlords and I did not see any more lings (while its possible he could be hiding them I probably took a gamble). Something I have been doing against a 14/14 is I'll still make drones, but with units as well. I won't pure drone pump for the most part unless i'm 100% positive he's doing that as well. I know this by when my speedling upgrade finishes I send a ling to see his drone count and military count. If he has lots of units I know he's all inning, if he has decent amoutn of drones I know he's droning so I can power drones very heavily like him.
2. Honestly do not worry about making too many units. for starters you have your natural up before he even starts his so its not the biggest deal if you can't pump any drones. I wouldn't transfer to it either till you can defend your ramp with 2 roaches and a queen and your natural with roaches.
3. For maps that are hard I imagine on maps like Delta quadrant, backwatcher gulch 15 hatch isn't good but I have both those maps veto'd and dont' play on them so don't know for sure.
Always glad to help thanks for commenting!
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Okay, ya I guess in the other games you were always seeing more lings being rallied, and made units and didn't upgrade ling speed. Makes sense. Ya I believe it would be near impossible on Backwater gulch, but then again who wouldn't have that down voted.
Thanks for the quick help!
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As a 3200 Masters zerg I find my ZvZ to be quite an inconsistent match-up for me. This post has opened my eyes as I now venture through the hatch first around the ladder and win many ZvZ's. So blade55555 I would like to thank you for that. Now, I have a couple of questions regarding the different strategies I have faced around the ladder and have sadly fall to them.
1. What is the correct reaction to a 1-base roach speed/burrow build?
2. If my opponent goes hatch first as well, what are some clear indicators that he is trying to ling all in me besides the lack of drones?
3. In regards to many popular roach expands should I drone up and spine crawler up or should I make my own roaches.
Thank you in advance blade55555
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On March 12 2011 23:21 leo23 wrote:
As a 3200 Masters zerg I find my ZvZ to be quite an inconsistent match-up for me. This post has opened my eyes as I now venture through the hatch first around the ladder and win many ZvZ's. So blade55555 I would like to thank you for that. Now, I have a couple of questions regarding the different strategies I have faced around the ladder and have sadly fall to them.
1. What is the correct reaction to a 1-base roach speed/burrow build?
2. If my opponent goes hatch first as well, what are some clear indicators that he is trying to ling all in me besides the lack of drones?
3. In regards to many popular roach expands should I drone up and spine crawler up or should I make my own roaches.
Thank you in advance blade55555
1. If you see he's 1 base and your scouting with your own lings (preferably 1 at a time cause he'll have speed so dont' want to lose all your lings or wait for your own speed upgrade to finish to do this  ) (sacrificing 1 to go up the ramp or something) Make almost pure roaches yourself with a few drones here and there and speedlings. If you keep making units and know he's doing this build its a free win.
2. Well lack of drones is 100% key note, another way to know is to just see his army if you can see all his units or see a ton of units come out of the eggs then you know he's all inning as well.
3. If they do a roach expand build when you make your initial 6 or so roaches after your roach warren finishes you'll have as much as he will when he expands. So if he tries to be cute and attack with them you'll easily beat it back due to defenders advantage and the fact that you already have roaches out. I personally would drone up and have units. And use your initial 8-10 lings to just keep scouting (if he does a roach expand build I believe his speedling upgrade is delayed as much as yours). So your lings can keep poking in and out to see if he's about to do a roach all in or something ^_^.
No problem always glad to help :D
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Is ZvZ a game of rock, paper, scissors? I think it is. Hatch first is rock, 14/14 is scissors, and early pool is paper. So, rock beats scissors and paper beats rock, but with proper scouting you can turn your rock into a scissors and effectively block the paper. This block is of course done with proper scouting. I'm sure everyone has played a game of rock paper scissors where the guy uses rock but carefully watches the other guy and if he can tell that they are going paper, then he quickly changes to scissors on the descent down. Now, in rock, paper, scissors this is cheating, but in SC2 this is just proper scouting. So the bottom line is that rock or hatch first is the right answer for ZvZ. If done correctly it can hold of a 14/14 and if used with proper scouting can transition into a build that stops early pools. Just thought of this silly analogy and wanted to share it with you. What do you think?
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Safe to say, I'm stopping this 15 hatch bussiness.
Nobody has the decency to go 14/14 against me anymore. They all just go for some early pool which results in my pool being too late and dying. I can't be bothered turning my best match up with 80% winrate into a 20% winrate rush defense for 25 games until I finally get the timings, positions and answers right. I'll leave the 15 hatch build to the pacifists that know how to not rage when they lose more drones during the defense of a rush than gaining them from going hatch first.
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On March 13 2011 19:11 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Safe to say, I'm stopping this 15 hatch bussiness.
Nobody has the decency to go 14/14 against me anymore. They all just go for some early pool which results in my pool being too late and dying. I can't be bothered turning my best match up with 80% winrate into a 20% winrate rush defense for 25 games until I finally get the timings, positions and answers right. I'll leave the 15 hatch build to the pacifists that know how to not rage when they lose more drones during the defense of a rush than gaining them from going hatch first.
to defend early pool if you mineral walk correctly you wont' lose any drones. The best way to get this build to work good is to practice with friends. If you mineral walk with your drones it works so good wont' lose any drones maybe 1 until your lings pop ^^. But sorry build isn't working out for you :/
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On March 14 2011 04:34 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2011 19:11 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Safe to say, I'm stopping this 15 hatch bussiness.
Nobody has the decency to go 14/14 against me anymore. They all just go for some early pool which results in my pool being too late and dying. I can't be bothered turning my best match up with 80% winrate into a 20% winrate rush defense for 25 games until I finally get the timings, positions and answers right. I'll leave the 15 hatch build to the pacifists that know how to not rage when they lose more drones during the defense of a rush than gaining them from going hatch first. to defend early pool if you mineral walk correctly you wont' lose any drones. The best way to get this build to work good is to practice with friends. If you mineral walk with your drones it works so good wont' lose any drones maybe 1 until your lings pop ^^. But sorry build isn't working out for you :/
You wouldn't happen to be kind enough to upload a replay or two of beating these things with pure drones. I always see people saying that's how you beat it but I can't seem to do it properly myself.
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Ok updated in the OP of me facing a 6 pool and holding it with drones till lings arrive ^_^. Haven't seen much of it lately so this was the only one i can find to upload atm.
http://www.mediafire.com/?xl3sa6t17oqiotp
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Me and my friend tried this out but we found that if the person doing the speedling rush just attacks the hatch each time the roaches back off we could actually take down the hatch or bait the roaches into making an opening. Any thoughts on this?
Edit: this is on xel naga specifically
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The game against VTZerker on scrap that you use to show your 15 hatch against 14/14, Zerker went with a late 14 gas, which delayed his baneling nest by quite a bit. Then after his banelings finished, he tried to send them against your zerglings. He should have gone for the drone line instead. I'm not convinced this is the best replay to show your build.
Against Inure on lost temple, he was actually ahead in workers and had map control with his speedlings at around 7:20. He made a late roach warren and didn't even use the baneling nest he put up. He failed in that game because he kept making speedlings while you were contained. They should have been drones. You were able to keep up in harvester count because of that. That was really Inure's game to win. Had he not made those extra speedlings, he would have been ahead on upgrades with a second expansion finished and running when you moved out.
Against Spanishwa, it was a 14gas/14 pool into +1 lings where the real attack only came after +1 finished. This gave you plenty of time to pump roaches. After the aggression dies down around 10:20, he continued to mass lings against a roach army, even while maintaining map control and an even drone count. From there it turns into a roach macro game, where you win because of Spanishwa's poor decision making.
Versus the Korean zerg Doksa on shattered temple, Doksa decided to tech to lair for burrow and roach speed. That gave you too much time to let you safely drone and produce roaches of your own.
The Korean zerg on shakuras could have done a lot more with those banelings. Not letting his banelings detonate on your workers was a huge mistake. In any case, it shows the correct response to an early pool and baneling nest. The rest of the game isn't really worth mentioning since it turns into a standard zvz.
The game vs the 7 pooler just shows how to defend an early pool, nothing special.
To summarise my thoughts, I don't feel that opponents in the 14gas/14pool replays were executing their builds properly or following through to the mid-game well. In almost all of these replays, you end up being contained and have no map control. In this situation, the person with map control should be the one to get ahead in worker count. However, they continue to be aggressive when it is clear that your expansion is defendable.
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And yet it works, the timings are actually surprising, you CAN have your roaches before he has speed,
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On March 14 2011 11:12 DImported wrote:
The game against VTZerker on scrap that you use to show your 15 hatch against 14/14, Zerker went with a late 14 gas, which delayed his baneling nest by quite a bit. Then after his banelings finished, he tried to send them against your zerglings. He should have gone for the drone line instead. I'm not convinced this is the best replay to show your build.
Against Inure on lost temple, he was actually ahead in workers and had map control with his speedlings at around 7:20. He made a late roach warren and didn't even use the baneling nest he put up. He failed in that game because he kept making speedlings while you were contained. They should have been drones. You were able to keep up in harvester count because of that. That was really Inure's game to win. Had he not made those extra speedlings, he would have been ahead on upgrades with a second expansion finished and running when you moved out.
Against Spanishwa, it was a 14gas/14 pool into +1 lings where the real attack only came after +1 finished. This gave you plenty of time to pump roaches. After the aggression dies down around 10:20, he continued to mass lings against a roach army, even while maintaining map control and an even drone count. From there it turns into a roach macro game, where you win because of Spanishwa's poor decision making.
Versus the Korean zerg Doksa on shattered temple, Doksa decided to tech to lair for burrow and roach speed. That gave you too much time to let you safely drone and produce roaches of your own.
The Korean zerg on shakuras could have done a lot more with those banelings. Not letting his banelings detonate on your workers was a huge mistake. In any case, it shows the correct response to an early pool and baneling nest. The rest of the game isn't really worth mentioning since it turns into a standard zvz.
The game vs the 7 pooler just shows how to defend an early pool, nothing special.
To summarise my thoughts, I don't feel that opponents in the 14gas/14pool replays were executing their builds properly or following through to the mid-game well. In almost all of these replays, you end up being contained and have no map control. In this situation, the person with map control should be the one to get ahead in worker count. However, they continue to be aggressive when it is clear that your expansion is defendable.
If you are still not convinced it works I want you to watch some Idra zvz's, Ret zvz's, and sounds like Dimaga does the same thing. They play better opponents then me and still win. (Idra played Dkiller, Dkiller went 14/14 vs hatch first on scrap).
For the game vs 7 pool someone requested how I deal with early pool (which I showcased not supposed to be special).
If you don't feel its viable I highly recommend watching Idra vs vVvTitan (titan does 14/14 into all in ling), Idra vs Dkiller, Ret vs Morrow, Ret vs some other zergs. Just watch them if you still don't think its possible. If those still don't convince you then your never going to be convinced and I'm not going to bother trying.
Me and my friend tried this out but we found that if the person doing the speedling rush just attacks the hatch each time the roaches back off we could actually take down the hatch or bait the roaches into making an opening. Any thoughts on this?
Alot of zergs try that if they can but the zerg player doing that doesn't want to lose all his lings. And you'll have enough roaches to still defend your hatch so he can't kill it but you do need to leave 3 on the ramp so his speedlings can't run by (or queen + 2 roaches is what most zerg players do I think you can do it with 1 roach + queen but not sure placement for that).
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My main question is about your gas timing.
What do you think the advantage of getting such an early gas is compared to taking a later gas. My standard hatch first ZvZ build is 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas. This seems to time out quite nicely so that as soon as the roach warren pops I can make 5 fast roaches.
What is your motivation behind taking such a fast gas, how do you use your gas so early without being stuck for minerals?
Just so you know, I'm a masters zerg who doesn't ladder a lot however I have beaten numerous 3.5-3.6k zerg players in tournaments.
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On March 14 2011 14:00 Grezzz wrote:
My main question is about your gas timing.
What do you think the advantage of getting such an early gas is compared to taking a later gas. My standard hatch first ZvZ build is 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas. This seems to time out quite nicely so that as soon as the roach warren pops I can make 5 fast roaches.
What is your motivation behind taking such a fast gas, how do you use your gas so early without being stuck for minerals?
Just so you know, I'm a masters zerg who doesn't ladder a lot however I have beaten numerous 3.5-3.6k zerg players in tournaments.
Well I have messed around with it alot and I for some reason it ends up biting me in the ass getting my gas at 17. Alot of zergs I face go all in on 14/14 and I just can't seem to keep up production on roaches that I would like. I also like to get metabolic boost at a decent time so that I can scout his drone count and what not very early. your way might be better just haven't messed around with it enough.
Hmm not going to lie I am kind of intriqued by Dimaga's way to do hatch first. Might have to start messing around with that in addition to the roach as the way he does it seems like it could be better then this roach opening on certain maps.
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EPT
