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On March 10 2011 19:03 apalemorning wrote:
man, i can hold this vs almost everything easy. but on the ladder it seems i get my roaches, drone a bit. i find it really, really hard to scout what the zerg is doing. almost every zerg on the ladder goes 14g/14pool. so they get speed well before me, take their expo, and then im blind. i've literally been mass linged/baneling busted all-in'ed with this build. how do you adapt if he contains ur scout with speedlings? this ling/baneling comes before lair, its so frustrating. halp
Hi, there are multiple things you can do. Depending on the map you can use an overlord to see how many drones he has at his natural expansion. If you see barely any you know he's about to all in you, if he has quite a bit then you know he's droning so you can drone while still adding roaches here and there.
Another thing (this might require more testing on my part of course) I believe your own speedling upgrade should finish before his attack so you can use your speedling to get to his base and see how many drones are at his expansion and what not. I did this last night on the korean ladder close positions metal (although I stupidly sent all my speedlings) but I saw he didn't hvae many drones and alot of speedlings so I started pumping alot of roaches with lings of my own and ended up holding off his attack. even after losing all my own speedlings. Again I'm not sure if his was delayed and might require more testing on my part to know for sure.
I did a 15 hatch 15 poool 14 gas agaisnt a ling bling yesterday. I threw down the roach warren right att the time my pool finished, but somehow I didnt have any money left over queens or zerglings. Maybe because I researched the metabolic boost upgrade?
And I also think a 9 drone scout is quite an eco loss, but it's needed for this build :/
Um you can't get the metabolic boost that early have to delay that a bit I'm afraid. Also I dont' think that 9 drone scout's that big of an issue tbh its just personal preference you can not do that and if you see ligns coming cancel your hatch and hold with drones (drones > slowlings sadly lol with correct mineral micro ^^).
I don't feel the 9 drone scout's that big of a deal but yes you can not get that metabolic boost upgrade you need taht 100 minerals/gas for roaches speed has to be delayed a bit.
I do mine a little different:
15 hatch
14 pool
17 gas
16 ovie
*pool finishes*
16 queen
18 ling
19 ling
20 ling
20 warren
(basically 1 queen at main, 6 lings, warren)
another overlord
inject with queen move to ramp
once roach warren finishes build as many roaches as possible
it's a little different as it takes gas later but for a few roaches - I don't feel you need that early gas, the more minerals is quite beneficial
I used to do something similar to you (getting my gas later) but I found I was always too gas starved and couldn't afford enough roaches and It costed me games where if I could have made just a couple more roaches earlier I would have been able to hold. Also getting it that much later delays your speedling timing which you do want as roach/ling is a great early defense sense you wont' have enough gas to hold with pure roach if they do an all in speed/bane, just speedling, roach/ling attack.
Does anybody just skip gas for more drones, and then just drop down like 2-5 spines at your nat, and wall in with 2 Queens?
I have seen strifecro in the past do this but I personally dislike it. Thats 500 minerals (if you make 5 which you would probably have too, to survive an all in ling/bane, roach, all speedling). It also delays your tech. Personally I dislike it but I do imagine its viable I just would rather have roaches then that personal preference of course ^_^.
Great post man to be honest, I've been using this build with a few tweaks based around using baneling micro-management to weaken my opponents economy whilst massing my army, so that when the 'major battle' happens, I have a much easier time re-building my force.
I'm new here so i am having issues quoting people, but i see people asking about 6-11 pools if you scout them. simply put I think by the time you scout it out, your pool will probably be too far behind already to bother cancelling the hatch, and i find that chucking down a spine in the mineral line of your main and natural, as wlel as your 8 lings SHOULD be able to keep you alive long enough for the roaches to come out.
Once more, thanks for the post this build has actually helped me fix up a few nicks i had with my ZvZ!
Thanks! I haven't tried to hold vs a 6-11 pool with hatch first I know I have seen ret/idra cancel their hatches when they see that so Idk if you can or not. I would have to test to know glad you liked it! ^_^
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On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own.
i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.
by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10.
i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions.
feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz.
p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro.
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On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:zvz is bo wars. it is. here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win. http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nkhere is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons. http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own. i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10. i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions. feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz. p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro.
You can disagree thats fine but your drone micro could have been alot better as to not lose them all. I have beaten a 6 pool with about to put down my 15 hatch but didn't when I saw he 6 pooled. I threw down my spawning pool and then used my drones (by mineral walking) to hold it off. I surrounded a few lings, killed them lost like 1 drone, repeat till lings come out or if he puts his lings too far and I could surround them all then that works.
If you don't believe me Idra himself has said it in mr bitters thing I believe, Ret has done it I believe at assembly. So while you think 6 pool > 15 hatch ret/idra would disagree 
And you don't do this build vs another 15 hatch as there's no need. If you think I do this exact build against another hatch firsting player well idk what to say but no ^^. you can disagree thats fine but I will not agree with you on zvz is bo win/loss ^_^.
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On March 11 2011 05:02 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:zvz is bo wars. it is. here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win. http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nkhere is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons. http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own. i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10. i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions. feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz. p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro. You can disagree thats fine but your drone micro could have been alot better as to not lose them all. I have beaten a 6 pool with about to put down my 15 hatch but didn't when I saw he 6 pooled. I threw down my spawning pool and then used my drones (by mineral walking) to hold it off. I surrounded a few lings, killed them lost like 1 drone, repeat till lings come out or if he puts his lings too far and I could surround them all then that works. If you don't believe me Idra himself has said it in mr bitters thing I believe, Ret has done it I believe at assembly. And you don't do this build vs another 15 hatch as there's no need. If you think I do this exact build against another hatch firsting player well idk what to say but no ^^. you can disagree thats fine but I will not agree with you on zvz is bo win/loss ^_^.
i tried to bate him into coming into my mineral line. its cella, hes a pro gamer--hes not bad,maybe the players you play are. as it was obvious he wouldn't come in nor could i get any mining done and also he did a later pool and would come out ahead econ it was POINTLESS to stay. i don't know what you're not comprehending about this. i know zvz in and out it is one of my strongest MUs atm. after about 20sec I just stopped microing and started typing--while typing i take time to micro, don't you--oh wait thats right I don't. I was typing when i just stopped microing! I know it is a hard concept to grasp. I came in here trying to support your cause by posting a replay where it worked and another that was just kinda funny and you want to heavily criticize me when the game was obviously lost.
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On March 11 2011 05:11 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:02 blade55555 wrote:On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:zvz is bo wars. it is. here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win. http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nkhere is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons. http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own. i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10. i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions. feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz. p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro. You can disagree thats fine but your drone micro could have been alot better as to not lose them all. I have beaten a 6 pool with about to put down my 15 hatch but didn't when I saw he 6 pooled. I threw down my spawning pool and then used my drones (by mineral walking) to hold it off. I surrounded a few lings, killed them lost like 1 drone, repeat till lings come out or if he puts his lings too far and I could surround them all then that works. If you don't believe me Idra himself has said it in mr bitters thing I believe, Ret has done it I believe at assembly. And you don't do this build vs another 15 hatch as there's no need. If you think I do this exact build against another hatch firsting player well idk what to say but no ^^. you can disagree thats fine but I will not agree with you on zvz is bo win/loss ^_^. i tried to bate him into coming into my mineral line. its cella, hes a pro gamer--hes not bad,maybe the players you play are. as it was obvious he wouldn't come in nor could i get any mining done and also he did a later pool and would come out ahead econ it was POINTLESS to stay. i don't know what you're not comprehending about this. i know zvz in and out it is one of my strongest MUs atm. after about 20sec I just stopped microing and started typing--while typing i take time to micro, don't you--oh wait thats right I don't. I was typing when i just stopped microing! I know it is a hard concept to grasp. I came in here trying to support your cause by posting a replay where it worked and another that was just kinda funny and you want to heavily criticize me when the game was obviously lost.
I'm stating on what you did wrong... I dont' get why your getting offended but I'm not the only one who thinks this. Don't chase his lings with your drones, just drone mineral walk try to surround if you can't surround fine but dont' go chasing the lings just keep doing that till you can get your own lings then you'll hold just fine. Idk what your not comprehending about this either as Ret/Idra have said the same things in the past and done it in the past. If you don't believe me go watch mrbitters 12 weeks with idra zvz as that is where Idra says something on the lines of "15 hatch actually beats a 6 pool because lings are just so terrible just have to cancel the hatch".
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On March 11 2011 05:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:11 majestouch wrote:On March 11 2011 05:02 blade55555 wrote:On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:zvz is bo wars. it is. here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win. http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nkhere is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons. http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own. i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10. i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions. feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz. p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro. You can disagree thats fine but your drone micro could have been alot better as to not lose them all. I have beaten a 6 pool with about to put down my 15 hatch but didn't when I saw he 6 pooled. I threw down my spawning pool and then used my drones (by mineral walking) to hold it off. I surrounded a few lings, killed them lost like 1 drone, repeat till lings come out or if he puts his lings too far and I could surround them all then that works. If you don't believe me Idra himself has said it in mr bitters thing I believe, Ret has done it I believe at assembly. And you don't do this build vs another 15 hatch as there's no need. If you think I do this exact build against another hatch firsting player well idk what to say but no ^^. you can disagree thats fine but I will not agree with you on zvz is bo win/loss ^_^. i tried to bate him into coming into my mineral line. its cella, hes a pro gamer--hes not bad,maybe the players you play are. as it was obvious he wouldn't come in nor could i get any mining done and also he did a later pool and would come out ahead econ it was POINTLESS to stay. i don't know what you're not comprehending about this. i know zvz in and out it is one of my strongest MUs atm. after about 20sec I just stopped microing and started typing--while typing i take time to micro, don't you--oh wait thats right I don't. I was typing when i just stopped microing! I know it is a hard concept to grasp. I came in here trying to support your cause by posting a replay where it worked and another that was just kinda funny and you want to heavily criticize me when the game was obviously lost. I'm stating on what you did wrong... I dont' get why your getting offended but I'm not the only one who thinks this. Don't chase his lings with your drones, just drone mineral walk try to surround if you can't surround fine but dont' go chasing the lings just keep doing that till you can get your own lings then you'll hold just fine. Idk what your not comprehending about this either as Ret/Idra have said the same things in the past and done it in the past. If you don't believe me go watch mrbitters 12 weeks with idra zvz as that is where Idra says something on the lines of "15 hatch actually beats a 6 pool because lings are just so terrible just have to cancel the hatch".
it is not that i'm offended but the game was lost and you're arguing that it wasn't when it was, which is what is making me angry because you're not comprehending that. Moreover, he tried to spine crawler me, so are you telling me to let it build? thats what i thought, it takes 4 drones to kill a spine--I put 8 on it because i needed to get it canceled/killed. time running around mineral lines is time not mining thus propelling him further ahead further exemplifying my point the game was lost. are you able to count or no? 6pool =/= 9pool. 6pool is fucking terrible in almost all cases it has no econ to back it up. cella did a 9pool which would put him ABOVE par with me economically. what are you not comprehending here?
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On March 11 2011 05:18 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:14 blade55555 wrote:On March 11 2011 05:11 majestouch wrote:On March 11 2011 05:02 blade55555 wrote:On March 11 2011 04:42 majestouch wrote:On March 10 2011 11:58 blade55555 wrote:On March 10 2011 11:55 majestouch wrote:zvz is bo wars. it is. here is a replay of me doing 15hatch against CELLAWERAA doing 14/14. I win. http://replayfu.com/r/LQB4nkhere is a replay played 5 min later of cellawerra 9pooling me after i 15hatch on close positons. http://replayfu.com/r/vn1g0p I disagree with you saying zvz is bo win/lose. If you drone scout you can adjust so as not too die to silly things. In the game you lost vs 9 pool you defended kinda poorly could have defended better not letting the drones die to the zerglings and make a spine of your own. i utterly disagree with this.
15hatch>14/14 in all circumstances
14/14>any early pool assuming you don't have downy micro
any early pool>any earlier pool assuming you don't have any downy micro
any pool 10 or lower > 15hatch due to losing too many drones assuming the aggressor doesnt have awful micro.by the time you scout, it is already too late, scouting with a drone in zvz in useless 9 times out of 10. i canceled the hatch and it was aparent cella doesn't have down micro, i will get relatively little mining done and i will lose 4-6 drones thus i will be in a deificit. the game was over there is no point playing it out especially seeing it was close positions. feel free to hit me up if you think your better/want to challenge me in zvz. p.s. the 15hatch pool first (roach) is easily countered by 15hatch gas first builds. you build ling spd as soon as pool finishes 2 queens and build pure lings till 28--purposely supply blocking ur self and hitting with those lings which should be around 14[meanwhile drone back home and throw down a roach warren if you see necessary]. your lings arrive @ their base as roaches pop (or they will have made lings), which in either case you will have speed and can pick off either: zerglings, roaches, or drones. also, the defender is forced to make units in order to assure they can hold it off and either must resort to an allin or hoping that worker counts are even, which in most cases the aggressor will be ahead by 5~ assuring a victory assuming the 2 players have equal macro. You can disagree thats fine but your drone micro could have been alot better as to not lose them all. I have beaten a 6 pool with about to put down my 15 hatch but didn't when I saw he 6 pooled. I threw down my spawning pool and then used my drones (by mineral walking) to hold it off. I surrounded a few lings, killed them lost like 1 drone, repeat till lings come out or if he puts his lings too far and I could surround them all then that works. If you don't believe me Idra himself has said it in mr bitters thing I believe, Ret has done it I believe at assembly. And you don't do this build vs another 15 hatch as there's no need. If you think I do this exact build against another hatch firsting player well idk what to say but no ^^. you can disagree thats fine but I will not agree with you on zvz is bo win/loss ^_^. i tried to bate him into coming into my mineral line. its cella, hes a pro gamer--hes not bad,maybe the players you play are. as it was obvious he wouldn't come in nor could i get any mining done and also he did a later pool and would come out ahead econ it was POINTLESS to stay. i don't know what you're not comprehending about this. i know zvz in and out it is one of my strongest MUs atm. after about 20sec I just stopped microing and started typing--while typing i take time to micro, don't you--oh wait thats right I don't. I was typing when i just stopped microing! I know it is a hard concept to grasp. I came in here trying to support your cause by posting a replay where it worked and another that was just kinda funny and you want to heavily criticize me when the game was obviously lost. I'm stating on what you did wrong... I dont' get why your getting offended but I'm not the only one who thinks this. Don't chase his lings with your drones, just drone mineral walk try to surround if you can't surround fine but dont' go chasing the lings just keep doing that till you can get your own lings then you'll hold just fine. Idk what your not comprehending about this either as Ret/Idra have said the same things in the past and done it in the past. If you don't believe me go watch mrbitters 12 weeks with idra zvz as that is where Idra says something on the lines of "15 hatch actually beats a 6 pool because lings are just so terrible just have to cancel the hatch". it is not that i'm offended but the game was lost and you're arguing that it wasn't when it was, which is what is making me angry because you're not comprehending that. Moreover, he tried to spine crawler me, so are you telling me to let it build? thats what i thought, it takes 4 drones to kill a spine--I put 8 on it because i needed to get it canceled/killed. time running around mineral lines is time not mining thus propelling him further ahead further exemplifying my point the game was lost. are you able to count or no? 6pool =/= 9pool. 6pool is fucking terrible in almost all cases it has no econ to back it up. cella did a 9pool which would put him ABOVE par with me economically. what are you not comprehending here?
you said in your post "10 pool or below > hatch first" which is incorrect. I believe I said this in a previous thread but after forcing him to cancel the spine the first time and saw the lings come up make lings yourself and throw down a spine crawler yourself. Sure his spine crawler well get some shots at your hatchery but you'll get yours up + have just as many units and can pull some drones. All i'm stating is what you did wrong and how you could have held it. While its making you angry its possible to hold it with what you did there you just did it wrong. If you still disagree with me which sounds like you will fine i'm not going to debate it anymore as it doesn't matter to me on what you believe or not it wont' affect me on if you believe zvz is bo win/loss thats your opinion and i'll respectfully disagree
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Thank you for this, I've been wanting to go roaches after FE but couldn't find the good timing. Thanks!
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thanks for the help blade.
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Thanks Blade, gonna try this out on ladder tonight.
I'm still having the most trouble holding off 1 base roach +1 timing attacks(around 11-13 roaches push). I feel like such a newb. lol
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On March 11 2011 08:15 TRod wrote:
Thanks Blade, gonna try this out on ladder tonight.
I'm still having the most trouble holding off 1 base roach +1 timing attacks(around 11-13 roaches push). I feel like such a newb. lol
those are frustrating too, but easy to scout. if he stays one base that long, you can assume. gimmicky burrow play, mutas (lol few spores and its completely nullified) or a +1 timing push.
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On March 11 2011 08:15 TRod wrote:
Thanks Blade, gonna try this out on ladder tonight.
I'm still having the most trouble holding off 1 base roach +1 timing attacks(around 11-13 roaches push). I feel like such a newb. lol
If he's still 1 base (should be sending a ling to see) you should know he's doing some sort of 1 base all in. If its 1 base muta well lol 2 queens > 4 muta I believe and you'll get a spore crawler in time anyway.
If he's going 1 base roach/ling all in or the+1 timing attack you said you should already have more then enough units to defend (you being on 2 base to his 1 just dont' overdrone!). If you see he's staying 1 base and hasn't proxied a base you should not be droning too hard as he will be all inning off of 1 base. If you want to be ultra safe just make a couple spine crawlers (I personally don't but i'm pretty sure if you do that only guarantees your win).
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Is this build viable against 14/14 on Scrap Station (or any future map withsimiliar wide ramps)?
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On March 11 2011 10:54 obbob wrote:
Is this build viable against 14/14 on Scrap Station (or any future map withsimiliar wide ramps)?
I do it on scrap. Its a bit harder though and is probably not the smartest thing but I rarely play zvz on that map in ladder let alone tournaments so don't' have too much experience on it but there is a replay on scrap if you want to check it out in the OP but I think its fine.
This strategy is what I use on every map except the maps I don't play because I don't play on them (which are slag pits, bachwater gulch, and delta quadrant)
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Thanks blade for your guide! I always thought ZvZ FE was literally a gamble. Really helpful! I'm going to try this on ladder later =D!
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Subbed. Thanks alot for this. But I'm wondering if you use this for every map? Or are there some maps that you prefer to use 14 gas 14 pool? Because some maps like backwater gulch or ones where your expo is far off from your ramp just seem like suicide to hatch first. Your thoughts?
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On March 11 2011 11:27 Chinesewonder wrote:
Subbed. Thanks alot for this. But I'm wondering if you use this for every map? Or are there some maps that you prefer to use 14 gas 14 pool? Because some maps like backwater gulch or ones where your expo is far off from your ramp just seem like suicide to hatch first. Your thoughts?
As I said before I use it on every map that I dont' have veto'd. The maps I have veto'd are slag pits, backwater gulch and delta quadrant. On gulch and delta hatch first zvz is probably terrible but dont play them ^_^.
But on all the maps I play yes I do hatch first even scrap station.
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On March 09 2011 10:21 roadrunner343 wrote:
Not to steal your thunder Blade, but to any one curious about holding hatch first, check out Mr. Bitter's stream. His 12 weeks with the pros series is amazing, and the portion with dimaga covers this exact topic. It was an amazing series.
Also, when Idra was on Mr. Bitter's show, he stated that going 14/14, 15/15, 16/16 etc... is silly. Rather than 14/14, you might as well hatch at 15 and pool at 14. You'll get the same amount of drones as 14/14, but your pool finish slightly faster due to the extra mining. Hope that helps some of you, and every zerg should check out Mr. Bitter.
Also ret prefers hatch first.
One warning though - it's much much harder to hatch first on scrap station, because of the extra wide ramp (lol blocking that ramp takes like 8 roaches?) and the long distance between the ramp and the natural. Not saying it's impossible, but I personally haven't had any success doing it, and have had success going speedling expand.
Granted, even after watching Ret and Dimaga on MrBitter's show, ZVZ is still my worst matchup.
Dimaga strongly recommends scouting with the 9th drone to stop early pool shenannigans. Ret doesn't like scouting with a drone at all. That 9th drone does get their with plenty of time to toss down the pool first instead of hatch first, which is all you need to do to stop a 9pool.
Also note that the hatch firsting player, even if they don't actually get to mine from their nat for a while, THAT'S FINE. You still get the advantage of extra larva, which is huge. Leave the drones in your main until it's safe to transfer to nat, even if your main is a little oversaturated. Better to do imperfect mining than to lose drones.
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On March 12 2011 00:40 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 10:21 roadrunner343 wrote:
Not to steal your thunder Blade, but to any one curious about holding hatch first, check out Mr. Bitter's stream. His 12 weeks with the pros series is amazing, and the portion with dimaga covers this exact topic. It was an amazing series.
Also, when Idra was on Mr. Bitter's show, he stated that going 14/14, 15/15, 16/16 etc... is silly. Rather than 14/14, you might as well hatch at 15 and pool at 14. You'll get the same amount of drones as 14/14, but your pool finish slightly faster due to the extra mining. Hope that helps some of you, and every zerg should check out Mr. Bitter. Also ret prefers hatch first. One warning though - it's much much harder to hatch first on scrap station, because of the extra wide ramp (lol blocking that ramp takes like 8 roaches?) and the long distance between the ramp and the natural. Not saying it's impossible, but I personally haven't had any success doing it, and have had success going speedling expand. Granted, even after watching Ret and Dimaga on MrBitter's show, ZVZ is still my worst matchup. Dimaga strongly recommends scouting with the 9th drone to stop early pool shenannigans. Ret doesn't like scouting with a drone at all. That 9th drone does get their with plenty of time to toss down the pool first instead of hatch first, which is all you need to do to stop a 9pool. Also note that the hatch firsting player, even if they don't actually get to mine from their nat for a while, THAT'S FINE. You still get the advantage of extra larva, which is huge. Leave the drones in your main until it's safe to transfer to nat, even if your main is a little oversaturated. Better to do imperfect mining than to lose drones.
Yup couldn't have said it much better myself. It takes about 8-10 roaches to block the ramp. Its definitely really hard on scrap but I still do it anyway hehe. But thats exactly why I scout on 9 I didn't know dimaga did too interesting he must have copied me! (joke).
What are you struggling with in the zvz match up to make it your worst still?
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I've been toying around with 15hatch a lot on ladder and in practice but I've been going a speedling opening to still try maintain map control. With a roach opening how do you respond to a personal that just pumps drones and expands while getting his roach den up later? Will you just pump enough roaches to completely shut down speedlings then go back to drone production while being defensive or is there some way to pressure him?
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EPT
