|
On March 14 2011 13:54 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 11:12 DImported wrote:
The game against VTZerker on scrap that you use to show your 15 hatch against 14/14, Zerker went with a late 14 gas, which delayed his baneling nest by quite a bit. Then after his banelings finished, he tried to send them against your zerglings. He should have gone for the drone line instead. I'm not convinced this is the best replay to show your build.
Against Inure on lost temple, he was actually ahead in workers and had map control with his speedlings at around 7:20. He made a late roach warren and didn't even use the baneling nest he put up. He failed in that game because he kept making speedlings while you were contained. They should have been drones. You were able to keep up in harvester count because of that. That was really Inure's game to win. Had he not made those extra speedlings, he would have been ahead on upgrades with a second expansion finished and running when you moved out.
Against Spanishwa, it was a 14gas/14 pool into +1 lings where the real attack only came after +1 finished. This gave you plenty of time to pump roaches. After the aggression dies down around 10:20, he continued to mass lings against a roach army, even while maintaining map control and an even drone count. From there it turns into a roach macro game, where you win because of Spanishwa's poor decision making.
Versus the Korean zerg Doksa on shattered temple, Doksa decided to tech to lair for burrow and roach speed. That gave you too much time to let you safely drone and produce roaches of your own.
The Korean zerg on shakuras could have done a lot more with those banelings. Not letting his banelings detonate on your workers was a huge mistake. In any case, it shows the correct response to an early pool and baneling nest. The rest of the game isn't really worth mentioning since it turns into a standard zvz.
The game vs the 7 pooler just shows how to defend an early pool, nothing special.
To summarise my thoughts, I don't feel that opponents in the 14gas/14pool replays were executing their builds properly or following through to the mid-game well. In almost all of these replays, you end up being contained and have no map control. In this situation, the person with map control should be the one to get ahead in worker count. However, they continue to be aggressive when it is clear that your expansion is defendable. If you are still not convinced it works I want you to watch some Idra zvz's, Ret zvz's, and sounds like Dimaga does the same thing. They play better opponents then me and still win. (Idra played Dkiller, Dkiller went 14/14 vs hatch first on scrap). For the game vs 7 pool someone requested how I deal with early pool (which I showcased not supposed to be special). If you don't feel its viable I highly recommend watching Idra vs vVvTitan (titan does 14/14 into all in ling), Idra vs Dkiller, Ret vs Morrow, Ret vs some other zergs. Just watch them if you still don't think its possible. If those still don't convince you then your never going to be convinced and I'm not going to bother trying.
I didn't mean to say that the build isn't viable, since I've already seen Idra demonstrate the build. I just think it works better on maps with a more closed natural. You just need to point out the weaknesses in the build, add better executed replays and some where it loses.
|
Hey Blade, thank you so much for this work...it helps a
lot. I have been working on the most economical way to hold
off 14/14 with hatch first as well.
How do you respond to a drone blocking your expansion? Do you lay down your pool or just send a second drone to help?
Thank you!
|
|
|
Dubpace; send 2 drones down in anticipation and he will not commit to fully blocking, or lose the drone relatively fast. You can grab an extra drone or overlord in those seconds.
I got into masters and started going 16h16p17g17ov and promptly went to about 20% win rate, getting me demoted. It's quite hard to get, as it sounds very weak on paper but it's dimaga style; you get 2 queens relatively fast + 1 spine between ramp and natural.
Now I get baneling nest BEFORE speed if the opponent is going 14g14p. I don't need speed with defensive bane's, he is the aggressor. If he is getting quick roaches, you need to catch up to his drone count (typically a few more than speedbane). I think this is rare so I don't have alot of experience of this against 1 base quick roach play but it would seem solid, you just must not over make lings at the start I think. Very important.
As long as the queen wall is up, no banes will get through, and your DPS with just a handful of lings+queen+spine will beat a ton of lings. Your banes should be up at around the same time as his, whereas Roaches will not be enough to stop a ling all in baneling bust at that moment.
Once you have speed you can start to get aggressive with superior economy/production, preventing his droning up at his natural and until he has roaches. Once you spot the roach, drone some more and roach up.
If I play vs someone doing a similar build, it is tricky knowing how to drone or get the eco lead. That requires good scouting; you can use lings even if slow (speed first here) because he wont have speed either for a while. I don't like dimaga's 16ling push because if he has good defense I feel like my droning comes too late.
|
Great post!
I didnt get to watch all your replays (going to work), but is it over when your opponents get speed fast, and start pumping lings?? i like opening 15/14 as i feel its solid and can hold almost anything, but ive fallen victim to masss lings where my opponent cuts drone production and goes all in with around 30 lings.
I know i shouldve scouted better and shouldve known it but, i didnt realize that he was masssing lings. his push came around 4:30~4:45.
EDIT: nvm ill watch the 6-11 pool replay, then repost if my questions arent answered. thanks!
|
On March 14 2011 23:19 Discount_Glowstix wrote:
Great post!
I didnt get to watch all your replays (going to work), but is it over when your opponents get speed fast, and start pumping lings?? i like opening 15/14 as i feel its solid and can hold almost anything, but ive fallen victim to masss lings where my opponent cuts drone production and goes all in with around 30 lings.
I know i shouldve scouted better and shouldve known it but, i didnt realize that he was masssing lings. his push came around 4:30~4:45.
EDIT: nvm ill watch the 6-11 pool replay, then repost if my questions arent answered. thanks!
I think a better replay to watch would be him vs spanishiwa on xel'naga. I believe he defends against a similar strategy to what you are describing.
|
On March 14 2011 23:19 Discount_Glowstix wrote:
Great post!
I didnt get to watch all your replays (going to work), but is it over when your opponents get speed fast, and start pumping lings?? i like opening 15/14 as i feel its solid and can hold almost anything, but ive fallen victim to masss lings where my opponent cuts drone production and goes all in with around 30 lings.
I know i shouldve scouted better and shouldve known it but, i didnt realize that he was masssing lings. his push came around 4:30~4:45.
EDIT: nvm ill watch the 6-11 pool replay, then repost if my questions arent answered. thanks!
Did he do a 14/14 expand? You should always be making roaches even when you see the 14/14 expand as they still will make a ton of lings (well most of them).
But it just depends on how much they commit. If they commit their lings and you kill them all well your a good deal ahead unless they just drone and hope you don't counter attack (which you should just threaten it to force him to make more lings).
But yes scouting is key to see these attacks ^^.
Hey Blade, thank you so much for this work...it helps a
lot. I have been working on the most economical way to hold
off 14/14 with hatch first as well.
How do you respond to a drone blocking your expansion? Do you lay down your pool or just send a second drone to help?
Thank you!
As someone said just use 2 drones. Luckily he can't be too lame and put anything to block it otherwise so would still put the hatch down first ^^.
|
Just bumping this with some new replays for some questions.
There is now a replay of a faster version of roach/ling all in on xelnaga caverns vs hatch first (well fastest roach/ling I don't see any way it could come faster)
which can be found here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9bnjtgjbm9hbq6e
Note: Not much to say here he goes 14/14 with lings tries to harass then goes ling/roach all in in 1 attempt.
Another 14/14 on scrap station vs hatch first.
http://www.mediafire.com/?xqrm1c4st4qd0kj
Note on this game: After I got my roach block in the choke I should have droned. This game I do win but due to his mistakes. Once you get enough roaches to block that area so that lings can't just run by you can pump drones hard. This game I didn't because I was stupid but non the less showcases how to handle the 14/14 and walling off that part with your roaches so lings can't just run by.
Unless asked I don't plan on bumping this/adding after this post ^^.
|
this thread is worth bumping. thanks for the replays ^^ hatch first is the best opening for a macro game, you just need to learn how to defend well with it for it to pay off.
|
Is this still viable due to 1.3? I like going hatch first a lot.
Also, after I hold off the aggression, and I still don't see an expansion, would it be wise to make more roaches or to drone? I think droning may be stupid since he won't be doing that and will likely commit to an all-in. Just don't know whether to get ahead or to just go kill him.
|
i go hatch first in every single zvz and love it. I feel like i can hold anything. Most zergs allın and get behınd and call me a fag xD
|
On March 09 2011 14:34 ch33psh33p wrote:
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.
I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.
There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.
Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.
3.8k masters if it matters.
I agree 100% with this, i do this build a little different I find it's more efficient IMO.
I do the double spine like Damaga on bitters vod, but I make a 3rd queen and I don't get gas for along time. I don't start gas until I have 2 spines, 2 queens, and enough lings that stops the initial rush.
If there is no rush obviously i drone harder, and get gas a little earlier since i have more drones. I then take both gases, get speed, ranged attack layer. drone some more, then at about 36 drones I make a big batch of lings to pressure. Usually if he has 5-8 roaches with a few speed lings you can plow through and do some heavy eco damamge, if I scout and can't I just keep droning till 40-50 drones then start up roach production with speed, bury and ol speed/drop then max on roaches, i leave about 10 supply to do a bling drop on drones while I attack with my main army. works every time.
I'm 3.3 k masters, but haven't had time to rank up lately....
|
On March 24 2011 02:44 Callous wrote:
Is this still viable due to 1.3? I like going hatch first a lot.
Also, after I hold off the aggression, and I still don't see an expansion, would it be wise to make more roaches or to drone? I think droning may be stupid since he won't be doing that and will likely commit to an all-in. Just don't know whether to get ahead or to just go kill him.
Yes This build is still viable with new patch. As for the follow up I am not sure right now lol probably roach/infestor is my guess I don't see ling/infestor working.
If you see he's still 1 base and you held his aggression don't drone, make a few drones here and there but if you heavy drone thats a huge risk and only way you wouldn't die is if he went muta's  .
If you want to be like ultra safe a spine or 2 is fine too.
|
Oh I also like to over sat, you will out produce the mirror zerg even though it's not most efficient, it's hard to hold a 3rd in zvz.
Also before I attack, I always bulid a 3rd because by the time you go attack with your maxed army you should be closed to minded out at your natural, and you need the 3rd hatch to reload units faster than him.
|
I feel like there's no point to hatch first if your econ is going to be terrible and not have enough drones to support two bases anyway. Why not just 14/14 into like a 20 to 25 expand while putting on pressure with lings. You'll have a queen earlier and probably more drones + maybe map control. Hatch first honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me except maybe ZvT. An earlier queen gives you as much econ advantage as a super early hatch. It seems all risk and no reward.
|
if you hatch first you will have the eco advantage because all the time you are waiting for ur 2nd hatch to come up i'm double injecting and massing drones. If you pressure i have lings/blings spines and queens. I just lolz to mass eco advantage.
Basically i don't roach early because they are useless except holding the ramp. The can't move out in small numbers, and you dont have econ to carry them yet. + the money on the warren is better spent on a spine and a queen and the gas put towards things like upgrades and layer. the 3rd queen can show away any close OV's so you can do what you want and spread creep to your 3rd to be.
I don't like units that are useless, and roaches are useless in small numbers. speed lings can at least scout or make banes... I'll all about 1 to many when I can.
|
On March 26 2011 14:32 Uhh Negative wrote:
I feel like there's no point to hatch first if your econ is going to be terrible and not have enough drones to support two bases anyway. Why not just 14/14 into like a 20 to 25 expand while putting on pressure with lings. You'll have a queen earlier and probably more drones + maybe map control. Hatch first honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me except maybe ZvT. An earlier queen gives you as much econ advantage as a super early hatch. It seems all risk and no reward.
If you want to see the reasons watch Dimaga on 12 weeks of the pro's he says its the way to play zvz, Idra does it most of the time, Ret does it all the time.
Your economy isn't worse then his. If he's being aggressive with lings he's not droning. You also dont' need a queen as early as a 14/14 because you have the larva for it with 2 hatcheries.
if you hatch first you will have the eco advantage because all the time you are waiting for ur 2nd hatch to come up i'm double injecting and massing drones. If you pressure i have lings/blings spines and queens. I just lolz to mass eco advantage.
Basically i don't roach early because they are useless except holding the ramp. The can't move out in small numbers, and you dont have econ to carry them yet. + the money on the warren is better spent on a spine and a queen and the gas put towards things like upgrades and layer. the 3rd queen can show away any close OV's so you can do what you want and spread creep to your 3rd to be.
I don't like units that are useless, and roaches are useless in small numbers. speed lings can at least scout or make banes... I'll all about 1 to many when I can.
Here is why I don't like ling/bane the style you do zvz hatch first. If he's doing it as well its all a micro war. If you mess up your ling/bane a little bit you lose hatch first or not. Roaches are better because its not as micro intenseive of course if you let your roaches get surrounded your screwed. But you should also have lings yourself (8-10) with roach support beats speedlings even if they get a surround on your roaches your lings will take them out and your roaches wont' take enough damage.
If I was to do it any differently in hatch first I would do dimaga's style of spine crawlers.
|
Admitedly, I have not watched the replays, but I have a question
I do an EXACT same build except where I get the gas MUCH MUCH later.
However, I find that even with me getting the gas MUCH later, I am still mineral starved rather than gas starved.
How does your super early gas match up to your low mineral income to produce enough roaches?
|
On March 26 2011 14:46 ktimekiller wrote:
Admitedly, I have not watched the replays, but I have a question
I do an EXACT same build except where I get the gas MUCH MUCH later.
However, I find that even with me getting the gas MUCH later, I am still mineral starved rather than gas starved.
How does your super early gas match up to your low mineral income to produce enough roaches?
You don't get a queen too fast. I imagine if you like to get a queen super early then I can imagine you being mineral starved. I have started taking my gas guiser at 16 though instead of 14 or 15.
|
I wait until I am 100% certain that I can throw down a warren, use ALL my larvas (usually 3 on the time of pool completion) for zerglings before I make a queen.
I spent a good load of time trying this out against computers just for the sake of getting mineral to gas correct.
It seemed to me when I tested it that the most optimal was around 17-18 gas, AFTER making the ovie.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
