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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 03 2011 18:24 blade55555 wrote: hah yeah I hate zvz now due to patch. Infestor play isn't fun to me :/. Get to ultras? They ignore the fungal stun - though that tends to be a "next step" for me when we're going back and forth in 200/200 roach infestor battles. Burrow helps a ton vs infestor - the regen really messes up the damage. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 03 2011 19:36 sylverfyre wrote: Get to ultras? They ignore the fungal stun - though that tends to be a "next step" for me when we're going back and forth in 200/200 roach infestor battles. Burrow helps a ton vs infestor - the regen really messes up the damage. Well you can't exactly just go to ultra's. I know how to play it i just don't find it fun anymore. Idk why I just preferred going roach/hydra and maybe adding an infestor or 2 later in the game rather then be forced to go infestor now as infestors destroy roach/hydra now. I wanna discuss this further: The advantage 14/14 has over this kind of roach defense is that with a much faster speed one has a lot easier time scouting, and with hatch first you are forced to make some blind roaches that may turn out to be useless giving time to catch up in economy. The way korean zergs of the nestea school play this is massing slow roaches without lair and going for a timing attack that hits before the 14/14 player can get his own roach tech kickin in (or, forcing him to get roaches before closing the economic gap). In my experience though you can't do this on the new larger maps, because they have enough time to spine up and stall while your roaches move their slow asses across the map. To me it seems that, paradoxically, this makes 14/14 stronger than hatch first on large maps. Have you found a hatch first opening that is a) safe against pool first and, b) can consistently kill a pool first build? because if there is none, pool first seems to be less fragile and easier to play without any real weakness. There are ways to scout so you know (especially overlords all over the map incase your not doing this for some reason  ). Even if you "blindly" make roaches vs a 14/14 you have 2 bases, and if he scouts that he's going to be forced to make units or you die.What I like to do as soon as my pool finishes and make my lings I grab 1 ling and have him scout their base. His speed will not have finished yet and so far I almost always see what their doing (are they making a ton of lings, drones, or going 1 base roach). then when your speed finishes you can check out too or on alot of maps you can have an overlord check the minerals at their natural. If you see very few drones prepare for an all in, if you see a decent amount of drones you know your safe to keep droning. I have also been adding a spine crawler lately just to even be even safer and working great vs alot of all ins. I also put my evo chamber (this is obv a little later or if I see their all in ling coming) somewhere so i can make a choke at my natural so the lings don't have as much surface area. Trust me helps alot  .I mean once you get this build down and practiced alot you'll know the timings that can kill you and how you can scout it so you can prepare before hand and not just die. I would still rather do this anyday then deal with ling/bane again. If your not comfortable with this way another way you can do it is dimaga's way which is instead of getting roaches, he holds with pure ling + 3-5 spine crawlers. Very effective too and you know you can drone very hard with that way as well. | ||
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Chaos_SC2
Hong Kong9 Posts
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Both games of Kyrix vs. Losira from a couple days ago. Not the exact same situation but still, good stuff for stubborn zergs like myself who want to hatch first every game. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:50 Chaos_SC2 wrote: would you re-upload the replays? I cant download them... Sure i'll do that shorty! | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
I have a masters friend who loves early game ling aggression, it took me around 10 games of getting ran over until I figured out how the timing works for the pure roach defense, but all in all, this definitely works. From there, if he expanded, I normally drone up behind a couple roaches, if he didn't, then I still drone a bit and get more roaches to defend against the eventual allin. Normally I try to end the game with +1 +1 speed roach, which works great now even with infesters on the field....Becuz by the time I atk there will only be 2/3 fungals, and +1 +1 roaches just rapes 0/0 roaches.... | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
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raid3n
United States58 Posts
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Rhyme
United States1069 Posts
i was thinking about this for awhile, and recently saw a zvz by idra that made me think there's some merit to it: http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/283858108 it's the very first game in the VOD. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Am I doing it wrong? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?dk1ljn5l2bcddj6 I added the game I had vs sixjaxVIBE close positions metal where he 14/14 I hatched first and was a very aggressive all in he did all game long. The replays in there are me vs inure, spanishiwa (before joining vile), VTzerker, and sixjaxVIBE. The ones in the OP with mediafire should still work. Quite a great post, it's basically what I do every zvz too. I also got the idea that if u go straight to roaches, u have enough time to build them against a 14/14 ling allin/expand. I have a masters friend who loves early game ling aggression, it took me around 10 games of getting ran over until I figured out how the timing works for the pure roach defense, but all in all, this definitely works. From there, if he expanded, I normally drone up behind a couple roaches, if he didn't, then I still drone a bit and get more roaches to defend against the eventual allin. Normally I try to end the game with +1 +1 speed roach, which works great now even with infesters on the field....Becuz by the time I atk there will only be 2/3 fungals, and +1 +1 roaches just rapes 0/0 roaches.... Thanks, yes I recommend everyone to mass practice this vs a friend if you don't want too lose ladder points because this build does take time too master it. I mean when I first started it I lost too 14/14 all ins a lot due to stupid mistakes and now I very very rarely lose too it. Practice makes perfect .There is a lot you can transition too whether you want too do what you do or just go into a long game all up too the player ^_^. @blade: what do you think about a hydra/roach timing push before infestors come out? hydra is the fastest lair tech, while infestors are the slowest. i feel as if there exists a timing for 10 or so hydras to crush a player trying to invest in infestor tech. i was thinking about this for awhile, and recently saw a zvz by idra that made me think there's some merit to it: http://www.justin.tv/eg_idra/b/283858108 it's the very first game in the VOD. I have yet too experiment with it, I have seen Idra do it and I have personally been wondering the same for awhile (the game you linked I actually watched live :D). I think it can probably work but I have yet too try it. I do think that roach/hydra is good on maps with more open area like shattered temple, taldarim altar, and maps like those. On maps like Scrap station/typhon peaks I do think infestors are the better option. Is this considered to be automatically better than 14/14 if you hold properly? I still prefer 14/14 to contain and then I take my natural at 21. Against fast hatch I can sometimes force a cancel but it seems like I can always prevent him from using his hatch until mine has completed. He's also waiting for my aggression to stop which means I get to drone up while he's trying to confirm what I'm doing. Am I doing it wrong? It really depends on the player. I know ret/idra/dimaga, pretty much any top zerg loves going hatch first in zvz compared to 14/14. While you can drone, he can make drones and roaches at the same time for a little bit and be fine. something I have been doing also is sacrificing an overlord too see his drone count as his natural (if I see his army thats just a huge plus). If I see little drones I know too make a lot of units too prepare to defend his all in, if I see a decent/lot of drones I know I don't need to make units and can keep droning safely. What your doing is fine, but you shouldn't be able too force the cancel. If you do its because your zerg opponent doesn't know how too hold it off correctly and thats their fault not yours. Again its all up too the player, some players prefer an aggressive opening, some like me prefer opening with a more macro oriented playstyle and try too make it go there. Neither way is bad ^_^. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
I've been able to hold off all 14/14's (except metal close positions) with 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. Have you tried going that style or have you always got the pool and gas at 14? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 23 2011 05:27 Moosegills wrote: I'm curious to why you gas at 14, i feel that you don't need it that early. I've been able to hold off all 14/14's (except metal close positions) with 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas. Have you tried going that style or have you always got the pool and gas at 14? I don't anymore, I get it once I get it on 17 supply now. I thought I updated the OP but might have forgotten. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On April 23 2011 05:31 blade55555 wrote: I don't anymore, I get it once I get it on 17 supply now. I thought I updated the OP but might have forgotten. icic. Not sure if i was just on an old page or something. Anyways tho good guide for zerg who like getting past the early game. Thanks to mrbitter i've been doing this on almost all maps with great success and usually winning with a 1 1 or 2 0 roach timing in the midgame | ||
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Chaos_SC2
Hong Kong9 Posts
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
hatch first is good vs a 14/14 but it's not an unwinnable situation for the 14 14 unless he tries to all in you, and fails.(which he will if you don't drone till you get roaches, a couple lings and two queens up.) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 23 2011 23:50 Chaos_SC2 wrote: Um...I'm now looking into the replays. What I want to say is that I'm still a new zerg player(just bought the game a few days ago...) I dont think I can handle it...with an extremely low apm...(~30 oops), but, as you know, there are a number of bronze/silver zerg players do early pool...Should I sacrifice my points to try holding it with FE, for the sake of getting promoted to gold, whatever, one day? Or I should go 14/14, maybe 6-10 pool to fight against them...plz help...How can I increase my APM...OMG...frustrated now... Well this build isn't really that apm intensive. But on how too improve your apm its not as hard as you think. When i first played bw my apm was 90. Too increase it I just forced myself too move my hands at speeds they weren't very comfortable with it. I made silly mistakes for the first few days, but once I got used too it my apm was at about 180, and I eventually got too like 260 in bw (which isn't needed in sc2). Just something I ended up doing forcing it. Thats the best tip I could give you on how too improve it is too force your hand movements faster then you like until you get used too it. I don't know how bronze/silver zerg players play but I can imagine most of them 6-7 pool and stuff so I would probably still 14/14 gas/pool before doing this build. I know I scout on 9 so even in grandmaster/masters I still see if they 6 pool me or not so I don't hatch first if I see that. | ||
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khaosis
Canada96 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 24 2011 03:06 khaosis wrote: Great writeup, and I'll definitely give it a shot in my next practice game/ ladder match. However, I personally find it difficult to hold off early zerg aggression in ZvZ. Either I'm not playing it right, but at times the mass zerglings seem to overwhelm me. I think it's key obviously to scout and decide the appropriate amount of lings or drones that need to produced. It just takes a lot of practice. Like I said you want too practice this with a friend because when first doing this, I was losing too all in lings, etc alot. Once I got used too it the losses dimmed a ton ^_^ | ||
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
btw thanks for the thread i juat switched to zerg and zvz seems to be my hardest match up, more so than toss and terran it also seems to be that im playing against more zerg opponents now that i switched then i ever did when playing as toss | ||
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