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On March 09 2011 14:40 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 14:39 blade55555 wrote:On March 09 2011 14:34 ch33psh33p wrote:
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.
I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.
There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.
Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.
3.8k masters if it matters. I tried that a long time ago and my biggest issue is I hate ling/bane micro very annoying to me because if you fuck up your baneling micro a little bit and he's going banes as well you instantly lose. I feel that punishes you more for a mistake then Roach warren. I have seen both work of course and I know ret/Idra both use Roaches most of the time although I think I saw ret do banelings 1 time. Thats the problem with ling bane vs ling bane. Whoever fucks up micro will insta lose, so I guess if you're confident in your micro, it can be more rewarding than going Roaches. However, Roaches are safer in general, I agree.
Exactly what this guy said. I've seen people use ling/bling to great effect. Actually, I hate them for it. Almost every time I try Ling/Bling wars, I lose, because my micro is not up to par. I am more of a macro player, so going roaches allows me to more easily defend and macro than does ling/bling.
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On all maps you can scout an early pool with a 9 drone scout in time to throw down pool before hatch, except on typhon peaks. I don't think you can hold 10pools and such with hatch first and I'm not sure what to do on that map. blindly going 14/14 sucks because the map is so big and the nat is easily defendable, it's so hard to do any damage at all against a hatch first to pull even.
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i dont have a problem with hatch first vs 1 base
what i DO have trouble with is hatch first vs speedling expand. i try both, and still not sure which is better.
going speedling expand, it is hard for the opponent to scout how many lings ur making so that proves difficult for a hatch first to stay economically ahead
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Idras build is kinda the same,
15 hatch
14 pool
17 gas
16 OL
RW when pool pops, Queen when u have money, you dont need that many lings (depends on scout)
save supply, and mins and gas for 5'ish roaches
stay on one gas for a while, make roaches w all your gas and drones w the rest. eventually take more gas and play normally,
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I've yet to have success with a hatch first into roach but I'm not that great either. I usually sling expand in zvz, and never stop ling production unless I am completely denied. I often beat people that hatch first by just killing their hatchery because they don't have enough out to stop me as I'm producing non stop splings from 2 hatcheries. Then I back off because I'm then up a base and they are stuck with 1. I envy the people that can actually pull it off. I really need to practice this more.
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One your replay I watched was vs. +1 speedling allin, and you hold it, because you saw that he was pumping mass lings. When I played my friend he made a macro hatch at his natural and went for +1 mass lings but didn't show them to me. Then he came with such a big amount of lings that even roaches on ramp where eaten^^.
What I want to say that I think the big weakness of this build is you don't know what your opponent is doing. If he kills your overlord near your natural with queen then you are even more blind. He may be just mass droning and you are carefully pumping roaches with just few drones.
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On March 10 2011 00:26 Alpina wrote:
One your replay I watched was vs. +1 speedling allin, and you hold it, because you saw that he was pumping mass lings. When I played my friend he made a macro hatch at his natural and went for +1 mass lings but didn't show them to me. Then he came with such a big amount of lings that even roaches on ramp where eaten^^.
What I want to say that I think the big weakness of this build is you don't know what your opponent is doing. If he kills your overlord near your natural with queen then you are even more blind. He may be just mass droning and you are carefully pumping roaches with just few drones.
Depending on the map you can put your overlord at a good position and check their mineral line and not lose the overlord. You can peak and if you dont' see many drones you know he's making a ton of units, if you see drones well you know he's droning so you can too or you can attack whichever you prefer. Another thing you can do is get a baneling nest and with roach/bane you'll hold that attack very easily. I have been doing it it doesn't really put you behind or anything and if they do that and after you banes kill their lings unless they run away and dont' attack either way your very far ahead. I am still messing around with different things to do that dont' put you behind but I know this is one way I like. Another way is if you are blind to make drones but adding in units as well. Not pure drone pump but idk if I like that yet ^_^.
On all maps you can scout an early pool with a 9 drone scout in time to throw down pool before hatch, except on typhon peaks. I don't think you can hold 10pools and such with hatch first and I'm not sure what to do on that map. blindly going 14/14 sucks because the map is so big and the nat is easily defendable, it's so hard to do any damage at all against a hatch first to pull even.
You can't hold a 10 pool going hatch first without losing your natural. If you scout him last when 9 drone scout and see a 10 pool or something you can cancel the hatch and start your pool if you haven't already. You can hold him with just drones as drones > lings that don't have the speed upgrade.
The trick to that is to select your drones, right click on a mineral patch, then A move and if they dont' move their lings out of the way they will die with you losing maybe 1 drone. You do this till your lings pop out then your ahead ^_^.
Idras build is kinda the same,
15 hatch
14 pool
17 gas
16 OL
RW when pool pops, Queen when u have money, you dont need that many lings (depends on scout)
save supply, and mins and gas for 5'ish roaches
stay on one gas for a while, make roaches w all your gas and drones w the rest. eventually take more gas and play normally,
Yes as stated a few times before this build I got from watching Ret/Idra with some slight adjustments (like scouting on 9) nothing too big. The thing is nobody has written a guide I don't think and so many people always tell me its impossible so I wrote this guide for people who just don't know how and this should help them especially with the replays. They can then have a practice partner then mass practice till they defend it like every time.
I've yet to have success with a hatch first into roach but I'm not that great either. I usually sling expand in zvz, and never stop ling production unless I am completely denied. I often beat people that hatch first by just killing their hatchery because they don't have enough out to stop me as I'm producing non stop splings from 2 hatcheries. Then I back off because I'm then up a base and they are stuck with 1. I envy the people that can actually pull it off. I really need to practice this more.
Idk what level you are but this doesn't surprise me even in high'ish masters most zergs die to a 14/14 all in or something to that affect and thats more because they don't know how to defend against it. I know I didn't know I tried lots of things but I never thought of delaying queen and getting roach warren asap. It worked for me and still does to today ^_^.
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I've been struggling with ling all ins while my roach count is low and this should be a great resource against that.
As a side note, non-hatch first zergs seem to get really freaked out when they see hatch first. So many games they go all in trying to kill it. It seems like a better response would be to deny scouting with speedlings while mass droning and eventually expanding with good roach count. Do you think a 14/14 build is so far behind that to try and out macro hatch first is too much of an uphill battle?
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Mr. Bitter's foundations ZvZ with Ret was a good topic on this; 15 hatch works because of your defenders advantage, you can always squeeze in a few drones in between cycles till he ends aggression. By that point, you have an expansion set up already and are now ahead. As long as you have good control (really use the ramp), you can stop any all ins.
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On March 10 2011 04:46 revel wrote:
I've been struggling with ling all ins while my roach count is low and this should be a great resource against that.
As a side note, non-hatch first zergs seem to get really freaked out when they see hatch first. So many games they go all in trying to kill it. It seems like a better response would be to deny scouting with speedlings while mass droning and eventually expanding with good roach count. Do you think a 14/14 build is so far behind that to try and out macro hatch first is too much of an uphill battle?
Yes the better response would be to mass drones instead of freaking out and all inning but most don't see it that way. The quote below me is a perfect example of why 15 hatch works because of defenders advantage and having your expo up way before him ^_^. because even with the players who do speedling expand and being aggressive thats alot of drones they aren't making trying to hopefully kill you or do damage.
Mr. Bitter's foundations ZvZ with Ret was a good topic on this; 15 hatch works because of your defenders advantage, you can always squeeze in a few drones in between cycles till he ends aggression. By that point, you have an expansion set up already and are now ahead. As long as you have good control (really use the ramp), you can stop any all ins.
I agree 100% if you let those roaches get surrounded or not using the ramp at all its an instant loss.
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I REALLY love going hatch first 15/14/14 but on tons of maps in the current pool with open nats or long distances from nat-ramp (backwater, XC, meta, DQ) I lost the expohatch 80% of the time because you don't have enough roaches out in time to defend your ramp AND your nat hatch, especially if the other player goes for a fast sling mass.
What is your stragety for coping with a mass sling push into an open nat? I feel like you can't move out of your base with less than 9-10 roaches becasue 3 need to stay on the ramp and any less than 6 will get destroyed by a ling surround.
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On March 10 2011 05:44 CookieMaker wrote:
I REALLY love going hatch first 15/14/14 but on tons of maps in the current pool with open nats or long distances from nat-ramp (backwater, XC, meta, DQ) I lost the expohatch 80% of the time because you don't have enough roaches out in time to defend your ramp AND your nat hatch, especially if the other player goes for a fast sling mass.
What is your stragety for coping with a mass sling push into an open nat? I feel like you can't move out of your base with less than 9-10 roaches becasue 3 need to stay on the ramp and any less than 6 will get destroyed by a ling surround.
You should not be moving out with your roaches. You need to be using your roaches smart, trying to get them to engage you at the ramp, move out a little bit but stay by the ramp until you get more. also getting a queen and using that + 2 roaches to block works good as well. You won't lose the natural hatchery if you do this correctly and having your own slowlings with roaches helps alot.
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I liked your replay pack but I felt that the mass sling push i mentioned is very situational. There are certainly some maps where your nat hatch is so far from your ramp that you HAVE to engage at some point outside your ramp or else the opponent can just non-stop attack the hatch. Do you have any other replays that show this being defended when the opponent is obviously just linging until your nat is down and planning to follow with a macrohatch or expo of their own?
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On March 10 2011 05:59 CookieMaker wrote:
I liked your replay pack but I felt that the mass sling push i mentioned is very situational. There are certainly some maps where your nat hatch is so far from your ramp that you HAVE to engage at some point outside your ramp or else the opponent can just non-stop attack the hatch. Do you have any other replays that show this being defended when the opponent is obviously just linging until your nat is down and planning to follow with a macrohatch or expo of their own?
Hmmm I might what maps are you more concerned about? I know scrap which there is a replay of.
I do not play on slag pits, backwater gulch or delta quadrant so if your asking for any of those 3 maps I have those veto'd 
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Thank you for posting this guide  . I've seen Ret's opening a lot of times and I've been amazed at the effectiveness of it. But I was always too afraid, or more likely, too used to speedling/bling micro that I didn't feel the need to practice a whole different opening style. Im comfortable playing pool first openings but against a good hatch first opening they're just slightly behind.
Definitely going to try this on the ladder as soon as I can ladder lots again . I'm confident in my micro that I can hold stuff I just couldn't be bothered relearning a lot of timing windows again. I could help by making pictures from your replays and style your OP a bit so it looks a little bit better and send that version via PM if you desire. I'd love to help make this guide grow ^^.
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On March 10 2011 06:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 05:59 CookieMaker wrote:
I liked your replay pack but I felt that the mass sling push i mentioned is very situational. There are certainly some maps where your nat hatch is so far from your ramp that you HAVE to engage at some point outside your ramp or else the opponent can just non-stop attack the hatch. Do you have any other replays that show this being defended when the opponent is obviously just linging until your nat is down and planning to follow with a macrohatch or expo of their own? Hmmm I might what maps are you more concerned about? I know scrap which there is a replay of. I do not play on slag pits, backwater gulch or delta quadrant so if your asking for any of those 3 maps I have those veto'd
Those were the ones
Backwater i think is simply impossible to hold the 15hatch because you're SO far from your ramp. DQ is the same. Slag isn't as bad for distance but the entire side is open so lings have free reign over your nat. I need to re-watch your scrap again then.
TY for this and keeping up with responses, you field questions quite well.
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Thanks so much for this OP...
Last night I opened 10 pool and my opponent went hatch first. I thought I had a sure win in the bag, so I pumped 100% lings. He matches my 6 lings by the time they arrive, and had 5 roaches out before my first inject army arrived.
It absolutely baffled me that my 10 pool lost to 14 hatch, and I was determined to pore through the replay until you posted this for me. And I see your first game is against spanishiwa, who is an incredible zerg player. Can't wait to watch these! I hope to god I don't have to go baneling micro 100% of zvz's anymore.
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Makes me wanna go hatch first :D
Nice post really clear and open ended opening
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On March 10 2011 06:43 Chaosvuistje wrote:Thank you for posting this guide . I've seen Ret's opening a lot of times and I've been amazed at the effectiveness of it. But I was always too afraid, or more likely, too used to speedling/bling micro that I didn't feel the need to practice a whole different opening style. Im comfortable playing pool first openings but against a good hatch first opening they're just slightly behind. Definitely going to try this on the ladder as soon as I can ladder lots again . I'm confident in my micro that I can hold stuff I just couldn't be bothered relearning a lot of timing windows again. I could help by making pictures from your replays and style your OP a bit so it looks a little bit better and send that version via PM if you desire. I'd love to help make this guide grow ^^.
Hey if you want to help please do I will add the pictures and all that if you want to do that would be awesome ^_^ and make it alot better :D
Those were the ones
Backwater i think is simply impossible to hold the 15hatch because you're SO far from your ramp. DQ is the same. Slag isn't as bad for distance but the entire side is open so lings have free reign over your nat. I need to re-watch your scrap again then.
TY for this and keeping up with responses, you field questions quite well.
Yes on those maps I don't really know as I haven't played in those for a long time hatch first is I imagine bad on all of those maps I veto'd ^_^. Thanks I try my best glad to see people liking the guide and all that :D
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Great write up! Before this I was only going Hatch first on Typhon Peaks because the map is so huge, most of the time I resorted to Speedling Expand or a 1-base +1 Roach bust against Speedling Expand, but at the high Diamond level I'm starting to find Zergs that know how to Drone up just enough and get enough Spines/Lings to fend this off which really ends the game.
Hopefully publicizing this build a little bit will change the ZvZ metagame on the NA ladder to feature more macro games! Thanks again!
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EPT
