|
On March 09 2011 10:21 roadrunner343 wrote:
Not to steal your thunder Blade, but to any one curious about holding hatch first, check out Mr. Bitter's stream. His 12 weeks with the pros series is amazing, and the portion with dimaga covers this exact topic. It was an amazing series.
Also, when Idra was on Mr. Bitter's show, he stated that going 14/14, 15/15, 16/16 etc... is silly. Rather than 14/14, you might as well hatch at 15 and pool at 14. You'll get the same amount of drones as 14/14, but your pool finish slightly faster due to the extra mining. Hope that helps some of you, and every zerg should check out Mr. Bitter.
Your not stealing my thunder this build I got with some slight adjustments from watching Ret's stream a long time ago. I made some of my own adjustements but for the most part thats where I got it ^^.
I would recommend watching mrbitter's stream as well with Idra very useful information :D
But it is easier to watch a replay and guide then a vod 
|
thanks very much blade I'm keeping this guide tabbed : )
I've been bouncing between races for a long time with about 300 games terran 50 games toss and 300 games zerg and was in mid-high diamond for awhile before masters, I'm starting playing again and I still can't choose what race but I've been enjoying zerg a lot lately and have been thinking of staying with them :D
And I always wanted to figure out how to hold a hatch first in zvz so this is great! Now if only i could do it in zvp lol >_<
EDIT: oh and I was curious as to your thoughts on hatch first on scrap station? It seems very risky because the ramps so wide and the expansion is so far away, but I have seen Ret 15 hatch on it and hold against moonglade's ling/baneling attack, I think just mass speedling could punish you very hard on this map for going hatch first
|
I hate to be negative nancy here, but you are advocating a blind 15hatch in zvz. At least, if you scout you don't mention it in your OP.
It's great that it's possible to hold 15hatch vs 14/14. What about if your opponent doesn't go 14/14 or hatch first? Not every zerg player does this.
Do you just hedge your bets and accept losses in the cases of early pool or hard aggression?
Do you have a replay of this on Xel'Naga Caverns?
|
On March 09 2011 10:51 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I hate to be negative nancy here, but you are advocating a blind 15hatch in zvz. At least, if you scout you don't mention it in your OP.
It's great that it's possible to hold 15hatch vs 14/14. What about if your opponent doesn't go 14/14 or hatch first? Not every zerg player does this.
Do you just hedge your bets and accept losses in the cases of early pool or hard aggression?
Do you have a replay of this on Xel'Naga Caverns?
1. I drone scout on 9 (adding to the OP now thanks for notifying me of that!)
2. I will not hatch first if they go 6-11 pool.
3. Yes the game vs spanishwa is on xelnaga caverns.
|
On March 09 2011 10:52 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 10:51 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I hate to be negative nancy here, but you are advocating a blind 15hatch in zvz. At least, if you scout you don't mention it in your OP.
It's great that it's possible to hold 15hatch vs 14/14. What about if your opponent doesn't go 14/14 or hatch first? Not every zerg player does this.
Do you just hedge your bets and accept losses in the cases of early pool or hard aggression?
Do you have a replay of this on Xel'Naga Caverns? 1. I drone scout on 9 (adding to the OP now thanks for notifying me of that!) 2. I will not hatche first if they go 6-11 pool. 3. Yes the game vs spanishwa is on xelnaga caverns.
okay thank you for your response
|
No problem always happy to help and answer questions ^_^
|
Hey blade I tried the build just before against a masters zerg on sea who destroyed me lol, I defended from the early zerglings very well and he ended up just one base all-in'ing me and I couldn't hold, I think the mistake I made was teching to hydras and he attacked just as I was building them with his large force of roaches and speedlings off one base against my low number of slowlings and roaches off two bases, I think I didn't drone enough early on and was too scared and then didn't make enough units later on lol
http://www.multiupload.com/QGJVTSV4D6
There's the replay if you'd like to check it out! any advice would be amazingly helpful and appreciated : )
Oh and in my post before I asked a bunch of questions which i think you missed :D thanks!
|
On March 09 2011 10:51 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I hate to be negative nancy here, but you are advocating a blind 15hatch in zvz. At least, if you scout you don't mention it in your OP.
It's great that it's possible to hold 15hatch vs 14/14. What about if your opponent doesn't go 14/14 or hatch first? Not every zerg player does this.
Do you just hedge your bets and accept losses in the cases of early pool or hard aggression?
Do you have a replay of this on Xel'Naga Caverns?
on close maps this can be an issue for some players, others will be able to hold off/distract their enemy until a spine goes down or their own zerglings come out.
|
Are you the Blade who played against Idra on Mr. Bitters 12 weeks with the pro's? :o
|
On March 09 2011 13:59 curreh wrote:Hey blade I tried the build just before against a masters zerg on sea who destroyed me lol, I defended from the early zerglings very well and he ended up just one base all-in'ing me and I couldn't hold, I think the mistake I made was teching to hydras and he attacked just as I was building them with his large force of roaches and speedlings off one base against my low number of slowlings and roaches off two bases, I think I didn't drone enough early on and was too scared and then didn't make enough units later on lol http://www.multiupload.com/QGJVTSV4D6There's the replay if you'd like to check it out! any advice would be amazingly helpful and appreciated : ) Oh and in my post before I asked a bunch of questions which i think you missed :D thanks!
Yeah I missed those quesetions sorry xD. But your problems with that game were:
Got your gas too late your supposed to get it as soon as your spawning pool starts.
Start your roach warren before queen I would recommend that anyway seconds are very precious.
I feel that spine crawler was too early also think you should delay that till after roaches if you want to have a spine crawler.
Your overlord should be over his natural a bit so that you can see if he takes an expo. If he's not you know he's doing some sort of all in so you don't want to drone too hard or you will die to an attack that you should be expecting.
Sneaking in drones is good thats what you should be doing.
Teching too hydra's was a very bad move. You saw his army move out (or should have with them goign under your overlords). You don't want hydra's until you have a better economy. So delay your hydra den till you have more drones alot more drones. Just make roach/ling when you see him moving out with that many roaches you know he can't be making muta's off of 1 base while going heavy roaches and all those lings.
You were also still making drones when his army had already moved out you should have been massing units still not droning.
Spread your overlords more over the map you see everything he can't kill them till he gets hydra's or muta's.
Hope this helps!
oh and I was curious as to your thoughts on hatch first on scrap station? It seems very risky because the ramps so wide and the expansion is so far away, but I have seen Ret 15 hatch on it and hold against moonglade's ling/baneling attack, I think just mass speedling could punish you very hard on this map for going hatch first
Yes I do hatch first you really need I think 9-10 roaches before you can completely wall off the part between your natural and the ramp to main. By using the roaches to close it. If you keep roach/ling production when he's going pure speedling you will hold it off just dont' let those roaches get surrounded stupidly ^_^
Are you the Blade who played against Idra on Mr. Bitters 12 weeks with the pro's? :o
And yes I am the blade that played Idra on mrbitters stream.
|
I have found that if you go hatch first, it is very, very hard to hold ling/banneling all ins. Especially if they skip speed. On maps with a long rush distance hatch first works just fine, but on XNC, most metrapolis positions, and cross positions on slag and ST I haven't found in my play that it is not possible. If you go ling expand into roach you can can sniff out things like bannelings and then get roaches out in time to counter bannelings if they go for a delayed all in.Would you disagree?
Also, and this is a stylistic choice perhaps, i much prefer to build lots and lots of speedlings off two base when I go hatch first and go for tons of pressure. If you take out the natural (almost always possible if they go roach or ling expand) you can come out ahead. Its a timings push with speed I hit at 6 minutes with about 20-26 speedlings. What is your thoughts on this?
|
Not to discredit your strategy, but in the game against me I was testing the effectiveness of +1 ling/bling against roaches. I think it would play out differently if I played standard or if you caught me at a later point (it was one of the first games I had tried +1).
|
On March 09 2011 14:17 mothergoose729 wrote:
I have found that if you go hatch first, it is very, very hard to hold ling/banneling all ins. Especially if they skip speed. On maps with a long rush distance hatch first works just fine, but on XNC, most metrapolis positions, and cross positions on slag and ST I haven't found in my play that it is not possible. If you go ling expand into roach you can can sniff out things like bannelings and then get roaches out in time to counter bannelings if they go for a delayed all in.Would you disagree?
Also, and this is a stylistic choice perhaps, i much prefer to build lots and lots of speedlings off two base when I go hatch first and go for tons of pressure. If you take out the natural (almost always possible if they go roach or ling expand) you can come out ahead. Its a timings push with speed I hit at 6 minutes with about 20-26 speedlings. What is your thoughts on this?
For your first question its hard until you practice this build vs 14/14 ling/bane all in alot. Once you get used too it you'll hold it pretty easily most of the time. I hold it off it seems like 9 times out of 10 but there is the time I lose to it. you won't stop it 100% of the time you'll make a silly mistake or something and lose but once you get used to hatch first - roaches really fast with slowlings support does hold this very very well. You can not let your roaches just wonder though and get surrounded that is an instant loss. When they go slowlings and go fast banelings I seem to get roaches out just in time to stop it so the banes can't kill me or anything you should be able to get 6+ roaches immediately when your roach warren finishes which is enough to hold and you should have most of your slow lings so you should hold no problem.
For your 2nd question its not as hard to sniff this out if your doing roaches when both hatch first. If your scouting actively and see not many drones you know he's all inning (I classify it as all in because if you don't do damage and you hold it without losing drones or few drones your very behind especially if you lose all the lings).
I have found scouting with lings and if I see he has few drones pumping mass roaches + lings because I know whats coming and also using an evo chamber works great to stop the player doing that to have as much of a surround and works great from what I have seen I haven't done it too much yet I keep forgetting but I have seen ret/idra too it to very great success.
I have also found getting a baneling nest and making banelings is a great counter to this as well if you suspect it but yeah you can hold with roach/ling but have to know its coming if your not scouting or anything and it catches you by surprise yes its an instant loss ^_^.
Not to discredit your strategy, but in the game against me I was testing the effectiveness of +1 ling/bling against roaches. I think it would play out differently if I played standard or if you caught me at a later point (it was one of the first games I had tried +1).
While yes that was a weird strategy getting + 1 melee and stuff, you overall did the basic of what I needed to showcase of how to hold hold. Its really the beginning of the game that mattered not the mid-late the builds just showcasing how not to die to speedlings early when hatch firsting.
|
Thanks so much for the response blade :D
There was a lot of mistakes in that replay, your advice was brilliant! When I was watching the replay I saw I had seen him move out with that huge army. but I didn't really notice it on the minimap when I was actually playing and continued to drone and died lol : (
A few thoughts though, in my replay it felt as though the denial of scouting and map control with the speedlings is very strong, but could be countered with overseers I guess, I'm just not too sure when to get the lair I might watch some of your replays to figure that out
On March 09 2011 14:17 mothergoose729 wrote:
I have found that if you go hatch first, it is very, very hard to hold ling/banneling all ins. Especially if they skip speed. On maps with a long rush distance hatch first works just fine, but on XNC, most metrapolis positions, and cross positions on slag and ST I haven't found in my play that it is not possible. If you go ling expand into roach you can can sniff out things like bannelings and then get roaches out in time to counter bannelings if they go for a delayed all in.Would you disagree?
Also, and this is a stylistic choice perhaps, i much prefer to build lots and lots of speedlings off two base when I go hatch first and go for tons of pressure. If you take out the natural (almost always possible if they go roach or ling expand) you can come out ahead. Its a timings push with speed I hit at 6 minutes with about 20-26 speedlings. What is your thoughts on this?
And in response to this mothergoose, I find the mass speedling builds very risky, I would only do it if I knew for sure they aren't going for banelings, but I guess banelings could be countered with really good micro I'm not sure :S
|
On March 09 2011 14:11 blade55555 wrote:
And yes I am the blade that played Idra on mrbitters stream.
Idra told Mr. Bitter to do exactly the same build that you posted here, but props to you to make a thread a about it because it is a really good build!
And you did really well vs Idra. It was a really good game! He got maybe one of the best ZvZ's in the world and you put up a really close fight 
|
I would very much like to see a game where you hold a ling/banneling bust with hatch first, especially on XNC or a similar map. I when I play it is almost possible, but it is so difficult to micro around the bannelings.
|
On March 09 2011 14:31 curreh wrote:
Thanks so much for the response blade :D
There was a lot of mistakes in that replay, your advice was brilliant! When I was watching the replay I saw I had seen him move out with that huge army. but I didn't really notice it on the minimap when I was actually playing and continued to drone and died lol : (
A few thoughts though, in my replay it felt as though the denial of scouting and map control with the speedlings is very strong, but could be countered with overseers I guess, I'm just not too sure when to get the lair I might watch some of your replays to figure that out
Yes it is very strong but your overlords will see everything. So you will see if he's pushing out, if he takes his expo. The only thing you will not see if what tech he's going. And a spire takes a year to make so you can get lair, get an overseer and may see his spire at 300-500 hitpoints (600 health) and will still get hydra's, defense in time.
I personally get an evo chamber and get +1 attack before going lair also so if I see muta's can also put out spore crawlers pretty fast they normally go for the overlords too so you will lose 2-3 overlords but have defense and still be fine.
Idra told Mr. Bitter to do exactly the same build that you posted here, but props to you to make a thread a about it because it is a really good build!
And you did really well vs Idra. It was a really good game! He got maybe one of the best ZvZ's in the world and you put up a really close fight
Yes as said previously this build is what I got from watching Idra/Ret while I made some very small adjustments that I prefer this build is pretty much theirs that I copied for the most part. I saw nobody really posted how to do it and its always easier to see replays then vods as you can pause, rewind, etc and see exactly what to do and all that.
Also thanks I was pretty happy with my play after watching the replay I questioned my sanity in that first fight I attacked too early think that game could have been alot closer if I had waited for my 2-1 instead of attacking 0-1 vs his 2-1 only needed like 10 seconds I learned alot from that game was glad it was close and not a 1 sided stomping ^^.
I would very much like to see a game where you hold a ling/banneling bust with hatch first, especially on XNC or a similar map. I when I play it is almost possible, but it is so difficult to micro around the bannelings.
If I can find a replay or I play one in the future I will upload and update the OP with it.
|
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.
I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.
There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.
Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.
3.8k masters if it matters.
|
On March 09 2011 14:34 ch33psh33p wrote:
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.
I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.
There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.
Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.
3.8k masters if it matters.
I tried that a long time ago and my biggest issue is I hate ling/bane micro very annoying to me because if you fuck up your baneling micro a little bit and he's going banes as well you instantly lose. I feel that punishes you more for a mistake then Roach warren. I have seen both work of course and I know ret/Idra both use Roaches most of the time although I think I saw ret do banelings 1 time its of course personal preference this way does work if you dont' mind ling/bane micro which I hate so thats why I go roaches
|
On March 09 2011 14:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 14:34 ch33psh33p wrote:
Just a little tid bit to add in there, for people interested.
I find getting a baneling nest after 15 hatching allows me to hold ling/bane all ins much easier than popping roaches.
There is a window where a delayed +1 ling attack can crush 15 hatch constant roach production. . The lings will reach a critical mass so that, if both of you were pumping roaches versus lings off two hatches each, the lings will win and you will be overrun.
Getting a baneling nest closes this window, and I find it allows me to transition into the mid game in much better shape.
3.8k masters if it matters. I tried that a long time ago and my biggest issue is I hate ling/bane micro very annoying to me because if you fuck up your baneling micro a little bit and he's going banes as well you instantly lose. I feel that punishes you more for a mistake then Roach warren. I have seen both work of course and I know ret/Idra both use Roaches most of the time although I think I saw ret do banelings 1 time.
Thats the problem with ling bane vs ling bane.
Whoever fucks up micro will insta lose, so I guess if you're confident in your micro, it can be more rewarding than going Roaches. However, Roaches are safer in general, I agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
