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On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed  . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
I belive you, but what do you suggest then? I mean.. The maps are getting bigger and both Protoss and Zerg have easy time making it to late game where your 1.5 tier bioball melts within few seconds and you spend rest of the game throwing infinite bio at wall..
I don't get how its possible people still find it better to spam bio late game and try to pull off tricks that works only early/mid game (aka drops). I feel way more frustrated when whole my bio army gets obliterated and there is literally nothing I can do then being caught out of potision, which is something I can work on..
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On March 07 2011 19:31 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. I belive you, but what do you suggest then? I mean.. The maps are getting bigger and both Protoss and Zerg have easy time making it to late game where your 1.5 tier bioball melts within few seconds and you spend rest of the game throwing infinite bio at wall.. I don't get how its possible people still find it better to spam bio late game and try to pull off tricks that works only early/mid game (aka drops). I feel way more frustrated when whole my bio army gets obliterated and there is literally nothing I can do then being caught out of potision, which is something I can work on..
I think many terrans are looking for a sollution, but no one found it yet. Pro players are still using MMM because it's the most (and only) working thing atm. It's sad to be a terran these days...
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On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D
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On March 07 2011 19:37 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D
Well it's like 2 weeks ago I played so there is some inflation :p. 2 weeks ago it was 3k
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On March 07 2011 19:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:37 rauk wrote:On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D Well it's like 2 weeks ago I played so there is some inflation :p. 2 weeks ago it was 3k
well ogs supernova just opened up with siege expand and a low marine count so we could see tonight whether or not mech works at code A :D
nvm 3 rax
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The next thing is - how is it possible people see mobility as the main issue when going mech TvP where in TvZ where the difference in mobility is even more visible we do see a lot of mech play even at the top level?
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Mech works up to 3,5-3,6k for me, but so far I still have some feelings that your opponent has to do things wrong instead of you doing things right. Still have to figure out how to deal with some protoss reactions correctly with little information and without getting every tech unit possible.
My TvP games always feel very onesided, even against opponents which did a lot of things wrong, I still have to figure out how I correctly deal with some transitions protoss do in midgame and how I can get a fast expansion while being safe against early blink stalkers.
Most times it is just very hard to see if they are getting for example 1 stargate VR or a second robo pumping out some more immortals in the back of their base, which require very different unit compositions for me. But the overall unit which haunts me the most in my TvPs is blink stalkers, I just don't see a good way to overcome them with mech, maybe I have to get more thors in the mid game against blink stalkers.
Pretty clueless atm :/ If any 3-3,4k protoss player is available to practice a lot of mech TvPs on the europe server please contact me
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I do a 0-3 mass thor build (and it's not a transition from a failed 2 thor rush, I completely skip that and expand instead) where I add starport units and marines as needed. Much like the above poster I feel the build is based on my opponent being clueless rather than me performing well. Mech builds are just so painfully passive that my APM goes from 90-100 average when playing bio to 60-70 when playing with thors.
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Thanks for the guide. I like that mech has so much interest in it these days, it's much more interesting and better than bio imo. It just looks much more difficult.
To the naysayers, have you seen the sadist replays? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193736¤tpage=10 He seems to be doing quite well with mech, crushing notable players who try all sorts of the supposedly unbeatable antimech tricks on him.
I don't really understand why some people have to come to every mech thread and say its impossible using their personal experience as evidence. I could find lots of BW games where low level T was raped by P, but that doesn't make mech unviable in that game.
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All of those here who are like " MECH IS SHIT, HE JUST MASS ZELS, IMMOS, VRS!!" gotta really watch griffin's reps.
Alot of the games the toss just quited before 1 tank was not even close to his base, you guys really need to watch the Unit lost tab bar, or watch jinro vs MC on LT, all the point of this BO is cost effetivness with sick AOE in battles, and the terran really rule this one if the toss enage a seige line with PFs hellions and thors
Yeah, you guys might give the toss a bigger map control with expos (which will give him harder time to defend vs helions) but as long as you lost 1 mineral to 3-4 of his in battles, its like you're the one with the more income... think about it.
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Well 1 don't listen to Dente EVER about Mech he just has this passion for putting it down in EVERY Mech TvP thread including mine.
2 It's obviously good above 3k masters because top level Koreans do heavy Tank/Mech play a lot nowadays.
3 It is true that playing Mech means the onus is on YOU the Terran to be the better player in the game. You typically won't get lucky although it really helps when you do but you must full on outplay your opponent whereas MMM sometimes the weaker player can triumph however also the better Terran can also be crushed going MMM.
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Example 1 upon per request for replay.
Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions.
I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well.
You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same.
Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview
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Griffith, I suggest you read Yens thread. It's a 1-1-1 FE with cloakshee harass into a thor marine banshee raven push. From there, it does so much damage that you're just set in a good spot, already 1-1-1 with an expo and thor tech opened.
I got a rep of it in action if ya want, or go watch his as he's like 3.9k
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So after reading this guide and watching the replays I figured I would give the build a shot and use it on the ladder. I used it against a protoss on shatered temple and I absolutly dominated. I quickly decimated the protoss army using the ghosts and siege tanks and harassed with blue flame hellions. I even made quite a few minor mistakes (not expanding fast enough, having too many minerals, etc.) But this build worked great.
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On March 08 2011 09:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Griffith, I suggest you read Yens thread. It's a 1-1-1 FE with cloakshee harass into a thor marine banshee raven push. From there, it does so much damage that you're just set in a good spot, already 1-1-1 with an expo and thor tech opened.
I got a rep of it in action if ya want, or go watch his as he's like 3.9k
reps please.
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On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview
I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!!
ALso, when you win a big fight like the later one you should actually just pull back your tanks and remax as he will be building up gateway units which get owned hard by mech compositions, instead of skirmishing with mass warp ins with your remaining tanks.
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On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!!
Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that.
Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works.
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On March 08 2011 12:32 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!! Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that. Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works.
Have you tried not making thors when you mech? I generally only produce them if i scout an air tech switch and know I wont be able to get enough starport units out in time. I also kind of find the 1 tech lab 1 reactor opening kind of peculiar. Usually I get 2 tech labs producing tanks and then add a reactor factory. I think you might find you power up a lot faster and can take your third a lot safer if you try that.
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On March 08 2011 12:43 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:32 XXXSmOke wrote:On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!! Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that. Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works. Have you tried not making thors when you mech? I generally only produce them if i scout an air tech switch and know I wont be able to get enough starport units out in time. I also kind of find the 1 tech lab 1 reactor opening kind of peculiar. Usually I get 2 tech labs producing tanks and then add a reactor factory. I think you might find you power up a lot faster and can take your third a lot safer if you try that.
I used to skip thors, but I have found that having 2-4 Thors w repair scvs adds amazing fire power/tankability/counters any possible phx play/carrier play. They are espcially awesome in the mid game when your taking your third and dont quite have that critical mass of tanks yet to stop the toss.
So a few thors is good, its bad imo to skip thors and its also bad to build too many thors.
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This seems like a very promising build. All the different aspects of the build appear to cover each other very well. For instance:
-Mech is extremely efficient.
-Add Ghosts to make your Mech even more efficient, especially against Immortals
-Cover your mobility weakness by using Terran's static D and sensor towers. You will have the money to make these things because Mech is more efficient.
-PF's and Turrets are so cost efficient (especially with the upgrades) that your overall efficiency will still be better than your opponent's even with mass static D.
-Once you partition off your half of the map, the 2 players basically have equal resources to use. But because the Mech and PF/Turrets are more efficient, the other player will have a much higher "value lost" stat and thus lose.
The only potential way to stop this is to use mass hallucinate to fool sensor towers but Sentries won't be that useful in a direct fight against Mech so it might be a wash.
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EPT
