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Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks.
Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal.
EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
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@GinDo: Did you watch a bunch of the replays he made in his OP? He has faced quite a variety of strategies using this build and you would be surprised to see how effective it is. In that last game he hadn't even gotten to the late game which is where this build starts to look unfair.
Although I do feel there is a huge window with this type of build before the planetary madness starts which gives the Protoss room to maneuver around the map and circumvent the terran defenses... But that timing varies from map to map depending on how defendable the third base is.
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Carriers/dt rape mech so hard, like on these big maps protoss can just clown arround with bling bling blink. And then when you push protoss just base races if he cant get you unsieged that is and you push really slow. Then he can either kills your mech army with DTS or stargate he can make as far away from the terran as possible and you cant do shit about it bc 50 blink stalkers and some collo just rape all your production. Also you cant flash style it bc if you send 3-4 tanks to outlying nexus's to snipe them protoss just warps in 4 zealots wich means you cannot do a ''clever'' push route wich allows you to attack his main and allow you to snipe some expos with tanks you split up.
I played like a fuckton of games with naniwa before his match vs goody and I manged to win like 1 with mech and lost all others without a chance.
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On May 18 2011 05:01 GinDo wrote:Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks. Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal. EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
Agreed, don't know how he is high masters...
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Yeah these pure mech builds may work in BW but I think they are rather ineffective if the protoss scouts and adjusts. I am mid masters, nothing spectacular, but every time I stick with helion/Tank I get swept off the board with voids. Protoss should have carriers at the 20 minute mark on three base, not massing stalkers when there is no AA to worry about.
As a terran, you need air superiority before you commit to any mass mech play. That's why my gas goes to Vikings instead of Ghosts. You can only fund two teched factories for tanks and constitutive Viking production off two base gas anyway. Plus you get the +1 range if I am not mistaken. I go with a 1 1 1 build to get a star port before anything else. Also you need a couple of reactored barracks for marines to get your mineral count down one you take your natural. Here is a basic look at the early/mid/late game:
1: Early game vs Tier one + Immortals.: Raven is the first thing you get before any gas unit. Hit at 100 energy with one tank sieged at ramp, couple of helions and marines. Place PDD at the ramp. Sentry FF buys the toss an extra 5 seconds before he is forced to pull probes off the line. Any early expo from toss is also negated.
2. Early game vs Tier one + Voids. A Viking following your raven as opposed to a medivac if you spot a star gate. Use the Viking to scout. Don't burn scans.
3.Early game vs Tier one + Phoenix. Haven't seen a single phoenix in any of my recent toss games. No idea why. This could pose problems but can be adjusted for in the mid game. I wall off so toss usually commits to voids.
4. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Colossus.: Tank/Viking will eat colossi. Keep the marines behind the line until all colossi are dead. Then clean up with rines.
5. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Speed lot/ Add a reactored factory for helions and try to get blue flame whenever the gas frees up. Then just hit "E" and go to constitutive banshee production since you should already have air superiority.This will free up gas for Thors as long as you have an armory down, which may come in handy if phoenix spring on the board.
6. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Blink/ Stick with tank marine and save that Raven. Plop a PDD and stalkers are null and void.
7. Mid game vs Tier one + DT/HT's/ As long as your raven is alive DT's are not an issue. HT's will never get to you rines without taking tank fire first, or snipe them with helions.
8. Late Game/: I generalize this section because my games never get to the late game. I go scv all-in at two base before toss takes bases 3 and 4. At this point you have at least 3 factories (two teched one reactored) and three rax (two reactored one teched for upgrades) and a teched star port. You may add a reactored star port for Viking/Medivac assuming you are on 6 geysers and suspect mass air play. You may build a fourth barrack and have two teched rax for Ghost production in the event of heavy archon/immortal play. Don't go for marauders. Don't spam production buildings either. Focus on upgrades and get the most bang for your buck.
So all in all, what is the point here? The build NEVER CHANGES. 3 Factory 3 Rax. If you get the timing attack down you won't have to worry about imbalanced upgrades in the mid game. Every toss counter is pretty much nullified with your composition. If you are a player who doesn't like scouting and making drastic adjustments game to game, try this. Lemme know if any of you need a replay.
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i've been using this pretty successfully in high diamond. i like to mix in 3-4 thors with my tanks and hellions though. i actually faced a protoss that withstood my inital push(he went to 90 supply) while i came out at around 130-140ish. i was nervous cause he had 12 or so gates so i started laying down planetaries(shattered temple) and missle turrets all over the center, and started sniping probes with hellions. he hid his carriers pretty damn good, because 7 of them came from nowhere but luckily i accidently made 4 extra thors lol. carrier and blink stalker is kind of hard to deal with, because he ravaged my base pretty good but i got the W
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On May 18 2011 08:16 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
@GinDo: Did you watch a bunch of the replays he made in his OP? He has faced quite a variety of strategies using this build and you would be surprised to see how effective it is. In that last game he hadn't even gotten to the late game which is where this build starts to look unfair.
Although I do feel there is a huge window with this type of build before the planetary madness starts which gives the Protoss room to maneuver around the map and circumvent the terran defenses... But that timing varies from map to map depending on how defendable the third base is.
Watched all of them.
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. . . Well if you watched all of them you would see that he always had a healthy but not stupid tank number, supplementing them with lots of Planetary Fortresses and Turrets (making DT play completely unuseable), and with a handful of Ghosts that would allow him to slow creep his way up closer to the Protoss base. He would tech as necessary depending on what he was facing. If he was seeing a lot of air play he would go air to air. If they were focused on the ground army he would work on the ground.
I think the problem is some people think that he's ONLY making Hellions, Tanks and Thors. Perhaps a "true mech build" would only make those, but this build takes the spirit of mech but doesn't constrain itself.
I'm not saying it's perfect as I do agree there is quite a window where the Protoss can abuse the immobility of the tank line if he goes with Blink Stalkers (something I think would make a lot of sense). Just jumping around to where the Terran is not can do a lot of damage assuming you can get around the tank line (which you can only really do in the midgame before he splits the map in half).
In order for a build to be effective, it must be flexible. And this build is very flexible. I think it's silly to just blindly commit to one strategy and if you're in a deadlock just keep smashing away at it until it works. I like strategies that you can transition out of easily in order to deal with what your opponent is doing. Basically the early to mid game the build goes pretty hard with the mech as it allows you to hold on to your territory very securely and is extremely difficult for a Protoss to penetrate. Once you have multiple bases set up and you economy is going into overdrive, you can then transition out of it into whatever would make the most sense to defeat the Protoss composition.
Although lately, I feel that this build was hurt by the Thor's energy being added again in the latest patch. High Templar actually become much more potent as you can not only feedback the ghosts but also the Thors. I imagine a good way to deal with this type of play with lots of Hellion harass is to go either for blink stalkers OR to go for High Templar/Archon warp prism drops and using lots of Cannons to keep yourself defended from the Hellions. Admittedly, most of the games I saw from my fellow Protoss bretheren is that they didn't defend their expos nearly adequately enough.
Since they are in Ultra Uber Turtle mode, you can expand quite a bit and set up a lot of static defense. With a low mineral unit like the High Templar, you could afford this quite easily and start building up a lot of gateways. Harass when you can with some High Templar and Archons to try and make sure the Terran macro doesn't get out of control. Then you can get your economy really rolling and you can fund a huge gateway army that you can replenish instantly.
Well... Honestly that actually sounds very close to how the Zerg operates... But I think against a strategy like this it would make sense. Harass where you can to try and keep them from getting to strong, while building up an unstoppable macro where you can just repeatedly bash your quickly replaceable units against his costly time consuming ones, and eventually the Terran caves.
To be honest, I feel that is an evolution that the Protoss need to discover. I'm still testing it out, since the recent Archon buff made me rethink the possibility of using MASS gateway against a Terran or even a Zerg opponent. I'm hoping so, but we will see.
Regardless, I do really like this build. I have it bookmarked as I'm still working on getting really good at Protoss... But eventually I'll get around to Terran and this is a build that I want to keep in my back pocket as it truly does seem to be quite effective. Obviously it has it's vulnerabilities, but it's something that most Protoss players are not accustomed to dealing with.
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On May 18 2011 05:01 GinDo wrote:Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks. Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal. EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
Everything i have said about mech not working. I take it back. I've really been at a loss against Toss, and decided to go back to mech following the suggestions found here about PFs and..... It flipping works. I played a game were the only reason I didn't lose was PF saved by ass and gave me time to reinforce with Hellions and tanks.
Griffith your a genius. Really i think mechs power is in the players ability to play the late game, and to harass. Not to mention be aware of cheap moves toss can pull which are many. One must macro and harass. The ideal harass is hellion drops. All game long.
And my guess is that to solve the backstab issue seen in some maps is turrets and a PF on the cliff. Then threaten to backstab yourself with hellions.
I also realized that the mech player should not limit himself by not building early game marines, or mid to late banshees. Ah the Banshee. In my game today the second he stopped collosi production I made tech labs on all my Starports and pumped Banshees with my Hellion Tank.
Also. Ravens are very essential with PDD. Ghost really help to, but i find PDD to be more help full imo.
Thank You Griffith
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When securing your third how many seige tanks do you put behind the planetary fortress to protect your natural,
also when securing the 3rd, what do i do if the protoss does attack my natural, is the PF + tanks expected to hold it off,or do i use my normal army to attack him using the PF to stall for time, if so how do i position tanks ? they clump a ton when moving in a group
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mobility screws mech, i exclusively play mech in tvp but other than xel naga and close spawn lt / meta close spawn / air spawn its just meh, u can take games if toss plays like shit, happens a lot but the lack of mobilty will screw u vs any half brained toss
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i like thor/ghost better with 1initial starport which makes the needed initial banshees, raven, then into medivacs. thor drops can be very good if used right.
i like your inclusion of PFs... it churns out more scvs (sacrificial scvs tanking damage with thors and backed itself by medivacs are just awesome) plus after mass EMP.. toss would have nothing for an army.
siege tanks are wonderful but a tad slower than thor/medivac and thors do better with mass repair.
thor/ghost/scv/medivac is pretty awesome esp when seeing scvs heal medivacs, and medivacs healing scvs at the same time...it's an army that snowballs so fast it's incredible.
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EPT
