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Disclaimer: This guide makes a ton of references to Brood War, but it should be accessible even to those who didn't play BW.
This is a guide on how to deal with even the most disgusting Protoss deathballs. (even 13+ Carriers)
Unit Composition and Upgrades
+ Show Spoiler + Core Units: 0. SCV 1. Blue Flame Hellion 2. Siege Tank 3. Thor 4. Ghost
Situational Units: 1. Vikings 2. Medivacs 3. Battlecruisers
Core Upgrades: 1. +1 Range Hi-Sec Auto Tracking 2. +2 Building Armor 3. +3/+3 Vehicle Upgrades 4. Ghost Cloak
Situational Upgrades: 1. Air Upgrades 2. Ghost Energy
Core Buildings: 1. Planetary Fortress 2. Missile Turret
Before I introduce builds, there are several main issues that need to be immediately addressed when playing Mech. They are posed in Problem / Solution format.
#1: The immobility of your core army / Planetary Fortress + Show Spoiler +Problem: Because there are no vulture mines like BW, it is extremely important that Terran find a way to be able to defend both his third and his natural. On some maps like Shattered Temple, often it is all too easy for the toss to just simply "walk around" your main army. Solution: You deal with this by using Planetary Fortresses to seal off alternative routes and to gain positional advantages. It is best to think of PFs not as an uber expensive building, but rather as a very cost-effective siege tank. As opposed to dumping your excess minerals into marines that get melted in 2 shots by colossi, why not instead dump them into a 1500HP, 5 Armor Behemoth that is the PF. Seriously 550/150 really isn't all that expensive. Remember, the +2 Armor is very important. 5 Armor PFs take a zealot 250 hits to knockdown. 3 Armor PFs take 187.5 hits, roughly translating to a +30% HP increase in all your structures. Furthermore, PFs have the same attack priority as other units, meaning that if they simply a-move into your PF-fortified base, chances are that the bulk of their units will focus on the closest unit (usually the PF) as opposed to your tanks. Think back to BW, how did Terran deal with their relative immobility? How did Terran deal with mass recall? A: by planting spider mines everywhere to hinder protoss movement. PFs in SC2 serve essentially the same purpose, but better: they are almost impossible to take down without protoss suffering from serious damage. The above image should illustrate how to place PFs on Shattered Temple. Note that I am Blue, and I want to secure my 3rd at 4'oclock. But I am afraid of a protoss attack into my 5' oclock natural expansion, so I make a PF right in front of my 5 clock base with some siege tank support to deter him from attack it. This way I can re-position the bulk of my forces at my 3rd. Note how wide the middle area is, so I place more PFs in the middle to prevent run bys from the side. Another set of progressions showing how to force Protoss to always be engaging near your PFs or Turrets while you slowly push your way into his base #2: Protoss Shields / Ghosts + Show Spoiler + Problem: In BW, Siege tanks did 70 base damage to protoss shields. In SC2, it can be as low as 35 damage. Compound that with the issues of Hardened Shields on immortals that absolutely wreck Armored Mech, tanks suddenly seem a lot less attractive.
Solution: Always have 4+ ghosts. Believe it or not, Siege Tanks actually do more damage than their BW counterparts. BW Tanks have a fire rate of 4.5 seconds, SC2 tanks have a fire rate of 3 seconds. There is reason why ghost academy is only 150/50. It is an extremely accessible unit, make 2 ghosts early (11 minutes or so) so you can start storing their energy. Getting one ghost at 10:00 game time is equal to getting two ghosts at 12:13 game time. You NEED your ghosts with your army all the time, always keep your ghosts on their own control group for easy access.
#3: Protoss Air / Missile Turrets + Air Upgrades + Show Spoiler + Problem: How the fuck do you deal with Carriers/Void-Rays? You may at first think this is a joke, but I've heard this said so many times over that its lost its comic value. The reason you don't see Carriers in Bio TvP is because you will never give protoss a chance to macro up to 13 carriers. However, with the expansion focused and greedy mech play, Carriers are a considerable threat. Compound that by the fact Carriers have double the DPS of their BW counter parts, you have yourself a real problem.
Solution: Missile Turrets, Thors, BCs, Vikings, oh and more Missile Turrets. You want units with massive amounts of armor and HP. SC2 Missile Turrets are far superior to their BW counterparts (despite its slight increase in cost) because of the +1 Range, +2 Armor Upgrades, and increased DPS. Trying to go pure vikings is not the properly solution, as vikings essentially become paper air planes against carriers. Note that you CANNOT kite carriers, contrary to popular belief, because once a carrier engages a viking, interceptors will auto attack up to range 14. This is why you need Battlecruisers ,as they become flying ultralisks when fully upgraded. Think of BC/Viking as the air equivalent of Thor/Tank. You want your BCs and Thors to be at the front tanking the bulk of the damage. It should be noted that because there is no interceptor auto-repair like in BW (meaning that interceptors die really fast). So your goal is to kill Carriers by surviving long enough to kill the bulk of the interceptors.
Void-Rays aren't so much a problem because you can kite void-rays using vikings. Phoenixes may seem like a nuisance, but just think of it as a weaker muta harass. You deal with by making missile turrets (pre-emptively). Oh, remember those 3-4 ghosts you have? Use the EMP on protoss air, it does wonders for you.
Updated for Patch 1.3: BCs are now the goto-solution against protoss air. BCs are cost-effective with Yamato Cannon against just about EVERY Protoss air unit (yes even void rays, though viking support never hurts).
#4. Chronoboosted Expansion Economy / Hellions + Show Spoiler +Problem: You can't leave a protoss macro unchecked. Their chronoboost mechanics mean that they will out-worker you very easily if you don't do something about it. Especially against mech, many protoss players will mass-expand everywhere. Solution: Multi-pronged blue-flame hellion harass and drops. You want protoss to be running around everywhere and camping colossi at every mineral line. It takes about 2 colossi or 4 photon cannons per mineral line to effectively shutdown 4 hellion harass. If protoss has 3 bases, that's already 6 colossi invested into static defense. If instead Protoss decides to sink 550 minerals worth of photon cannons at each base, you've already done your damage. Two pronged hellion raids are extremely effective. #5. Chronoboosted Upgrades / Double Armory. + Show Spoiler + Problem: Protoss often rapidly accelerates his ground upgrades using chronoboost, and thereby getting a very fast 3/3. 3/3 Chargelots, Colossi, Immortals are a nightmare to deal with if you are behind on upgrades.
Solution: Double Armory build. You need to do your best to get to 3/3 Vehicle Weapons (before 20 minutes). Although upgrading does not directly kill units in less shots, splash damage makes it so surrounding units take more damage and could potentially die from less hits (even at identical level upgrades).
#6. Splashing your own units / Staying Power of Thors + PFs + Show Spoiler + Problem: Chargelots literally run up to your tanks in the blink of an eye. Typically unprotected tanks will get off 1 shot before chargelots are up in their faces. Next thing you know, you are splashing your own tanks to death. General rule of thumb from BW was that siege tanks need to get off around 2 hits to be effective, in SC2, I find that tanks need to get off on average, 2.5 shots to be considered cost-effective. This means that you need roughly 7.5 seconds of staying power for your tanks. Think of staying power as a measurement of how long a unit can absorb damage.
Solution: Use thors, hellions, and PFs as meatshields to improve your staying power, not to deal damage, but rather to absorb splash damage when they are surrounded. Remember why tanks are horrid against ultralisks? Well, doing 65 damage to an ultralisk once every 3 seconds is really no damage at all. Similar principle applies but for splash. If chargelots surround a thor, who cares if you're splashing your own thor with 33 damage once every 3 seconds? It would take 13 hits from splash to kill a thor by one tank fire. It would take 50 hits from splash damage to bring down a PF. This is also why bio works horrible with mech, as marines (and even marauders) have almost no staying power in the face of storm/colossi.
Blink stalkers are rarely an issue because they get owned so quickly by tanks even if they do try to blink right on top of your tank army (and generally you always want to have your tanks spread out about 3 units apart to mitigate colossi splash damage).
Cookie Cutter Opener
+ Show Spoiler + Again, this is only an opening. It is very much based on BW's KTFlash Build off Siege Expand. I've tested it against 4gate, 3gate VR, 3gate robo, and other forms of all-ins. If protoss hasn't expanded by 6:00, you need to immediately put up two bunkers (earlier if you want more safety). If he has very low sentry count, that likely means either VRs or DTs, in which case you will need a fast e-bay.
10 Supply (Scout after 9 Supply on 2 player maps) 12 Rax (Scout after 12 Rax on 4 player maps) 13 Gas [1] 15 OC 16 Supply 20 Factory 22 Supply 25 Tech Lab on Factory 31 Supply (and throughout) 33 CC (build in base then float out) 38 Gas [2] 45 Gas [3] 45 Gas [4] (Yes you want your expansion gases to be going up just as your CC is finishing into an OC) 48 OC [48 Engineering Bay] Get an early e-bay if Toss stays on one base, as there is the chance of either 3Gate VR or DT expand 48 Armory 55 Siege Tech (I get it late because Unsieged Tanks do ample DPS, however, Rush Siege Tech if you are faced with heavy aggression or all-in and they are camping outside your expansion.) %100 Siege Tech, Research Pre-igniter
At this point, once you have secured your expansion, you can cut marine production and start focusing on mech.
Next task is to:
Factory [2] Ghost Academy Command Center Starport Armory
Unlike BW, you CANNOT make only 3 marines and be done with your barracks. Protoss has a lot more powerful cheese builds than simply 2-Gate Powergoon in StarCraft 2. You need pretty much constant marine production, with the exception of 1 gate FE, that often its not worth cutting any marines (even if to make a tech lab).
The Mentality
Your mentality should be greedy yourself while preventing protoss from being excessively greedy. Typically, if you can control the center of the map, you will win the game. For this reason, you want to start making command centers non-stop (First one at around 12:00, Second one at around 14:00). The first CC is used for your expansion, the second CC is turned into a PF and placed at the alternate entrance depending how you want to expand. Unlike BW, you CAN go for non-stop hellion harass of mineral lines. You should always abuse the benefits of blue flame hellion harass.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Lol, you just one upped that other TvP Mech guide.
One thing, I wouldn't endorse putting PFs absolutely everywhere. That's wasteful because while PForts are border line broken mid-game while being super repaired, they are just speed bumps for any 200/200 late game army. I suppose that depends on the replay.
I'll post some more thoughts after watching the rep.
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lol. got any replays against decent players? You can beat diamond protosses with pretty much anything.
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The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
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On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote: The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
Scout and transition. Those builds are mostly "all-in" (3 gate robo is semi all-in if you're pushing with 2 quick immortals, very delayed expansion) so if you defend it, you should be fine, but you gotta transition into the build of your choice to destroy him by either economy, or just powering through him with your army since his can't replenish due to probe count.
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So good, was waiting for this Grif! Will be hitting up replays later and trying it out. Such a unique way of describing the priority / "build order" for the overall game, and the Problem and Answer is so smart.
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On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote: The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
Mech is kinda like Magic Carp. You have to make it live through enough stuff to hit that critical point where it becomes pretty awesome.
You need to either keep the toss from moving out with harass(which doesn't work well as often as it used to) or you need to be able to defend a frontal assault... which you might be able to do with three bases, but then it becomes very difficult to move to 3 base mech without getting over extended. Personally I think its going to go the way that PredY is playing. It goes Bio->Get Expo->Add Support Mech->Get 3 Base->Heavy Mech.
On March 05 2011 11:55 iChau wrote: Scout and transition. Those builds are mostly "all-in" (3 gate robo is semi all-in if you're pushing with 2 quick immortals, very delayed expansion) so if you defend it, you should be fine, but you gotta transition into the build of your choice to destroy him by either economy, or just powering through him with your army since his can't replenish due to probe count.
Who cares if something is 'all-in' if it is something with a high win rate? What are you suppose to transition into? If you go early mech you have to solve a multitude of problems with factory based solutions. This is the problem with straight Mech. Factory units aren't actually that good in small numbers. So you have to defend everything the Protoss can throw at you when you are the weakest.
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I think this is pretty impressive for moving to mid/end game play.
The biggest problem, as stated many times before, is the transition. I think combining this end game with the bio->mech transition will be what TvP will become.
One guide eventually gets a bunch of OC's then sacs SCVs to build a bigger army. Since with this you build a ton of CC's anyway, perhaps this in conjunction with that theory will be very good.
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The guide is quite comprehensive and it has some very good points. The replay tho is kinda lame. For those of you interested in learning mech, I recommend checking out avilo's replays, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195223 He's got quite a few solid wins against some NA top 200 toss players
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Interesting strategy. I'll have to try out "Griffith's™ Mech" in my future games.
Seems like the expansion isn't exactly safe, though. Post more replays vs aggressive openers.
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I've went up against something like this, and it is way more effective than I would have thought. Having PFs everywhere might seem really expensive, but it also means that protoss can pretty much never attack head on without taking serious damage. If terran is able to get in the late game with this, I'm really not sure what to do. Storm is pretty much worthless since you will never get close enough to storm the tanks, colossi can be focused down pretty easily when you have really large numbers of tanks, and immortals/archons can just be emp'd to death.
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I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.
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On March 05 2011 13:14 Joedaddy wrote: I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.
Blink stalkers for combat purposes are rarely an issue, as EMPed stalkers get 2-shotted by Siege Tanks.
However, for mobility purposes (ie. the infamous Blink Stalker/Colossi Combo), it can be a nuisance to deal with. This was actually one of the main reasons that forced the PF + Sensor Tower combination. Because once you put a PF, they are extremely difficult for a toss to take down _quickly_ without the help of immortals. Stalkers are extremely cost ineffective against PFs. Even a fully upgraded colossi will need around 80 seconds to take down a 5 armor PF.
Think of it this way, if you spend 550/150 on 1-2 PFs that essentially shuts down the mobility advantage of blink stalkers, in exchange for them having a worthless combat unit combination, then its worth it because you can pretty much just push into their base.
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I guess I didn't hear that PF's were the new spider mines
edit: how many bases do you think you can support on having PF's in the middle?
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You can spam PFs as soon as you get your 3rd tbh, with 2.5k+ income its really absurd how much minerals you can rake in. You can't realistically spend it all because once you hit 200/200 and you start stockpiling minerals, you need to put the excess into structures (read: offensive PFs and Turrets)
PS. I'll be adding more replays soon.
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Interesting strategy. I would really like to see some replays against a well executed 4-gate and a fast DT rush that is not spotted. I suspect that this build has to little military to hold a 4-gate and get the engineering bay to late against a DT rush.
However it does solve on major problem though. Normally I go both MM and Mech since after having wiped out each other in that 200/200 battle Protoss can get his reinforcement into your base faster than you can get your mech out. By having PF at good locations it will be easier to hold until you can get your army rebuilt.
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United States7483 Posts
I've been wondering when terrans would start getting building armor and putting PF's in key spots on the map.
God dammit OP, now I'm going to have to deal with this shit too. Stop trying to make mech plays stronger, I just figured out how to beat bio play all the time >_<.
As for DT's, one turret and a PF, and no DT can go near it.
I also think that when playing mech, you should always get a fast raven. Detection for dt's and observer hunting (which really really really hurts the protoss), and you get the PDD to shut down early stalker plays.
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any strategy that involves blue flame helions is instantly good so yeah go ahead and play like this
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what kind of protoss sees a 1-1 open without even a bunker and doesnt 4gate?
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i played vs mech 2 games in a row just now and was able to win very easily with blink stalker phoenix immortal
so tip for protosses who struggle against this: don't build colossi against mech, do build phoenixes to negate blue flame faggotry because just 3 or 4 helions can instantly win the game for the terran. also they are quite good at lifting tanks and even if they die shortly thereafter, just negating a few tank and thor hits can be a huge deal considering immortals will plow through tanks in seconds once they actually get to them. obviously ghosts can be lifted as well.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 20:11 GDbushido wrote: what kind of protoss sees a 1-1 open without even a bunker and doesnt 4gate?
One who fast expanded, or is worried about hidden barracks/tech.
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How do you deal with collosus walking up your cliff alongside a blink stalker based army(a composition that comes out as you are powering upgrades and creating a strong defensive line at your natural to 3rd/4th base)? With the way mech works you really can't unless for whatever reason you have 5+ tanks situated at your main and an army that is in position.
I have played many mech games as T, and the blink stalker/collosus tactic is impossible to counter. Unlike BW, protoss can literally go into your main with mid game tech and you don't have spidermines, or the mobile force to deal with it. Since I play random at a decent level, I do know both sides of the spectrum, and if I see a T going for full mech, I will just go mass stalker/collosus and demolish his main, while staying very cost effective vs a mech army that is being forced to move around.
Your first screenshot shows a perfect picture as to what I mean. Around that timing is when Toss can take advantage of blink/cliff walking and your tank line will be forced back up a narrow ramp, in which you will lose a battle of cost efficiency as well as important production/upgrade buildings. Worst part about is that they can simply blink and walk out as soon as the damage is done unlike in BW where a recall almost always meant eventually losing all the units.
Of course mech is viable on a few maps as well, and I personally encourage T's to use it as often as possible since MMM becomes useless as late game approaches. It's just that currently there is really no possible way to not get your main fucked without having pre-emptive defense(and a lot of it, a few tanks protecting your cliff isn't going to stop anything), which means a weaker map presence/defense at your other expos.
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Immortal drops are just going to shit on you so hard in this build.
How do you suggest dealing with them, curious?
If you cut into your factory units to get some Vikings, I feel that you'll just get steamrolled by Gateway units or just Immortals on the ground. Your immobility really shines when well-used Warp Prisms can deal really huge amounts of damage early game
Moments like those are where I really wish we had Goliaths... Thors are far too cumbersome
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Good guide, but people are probably better off watching PredY's replays as he plays mech on a much higher level. I also don't think mech is holdable against agressive 1 base Protoss play, PredY's bio into mech seems a lot more robust.
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why woud somebody want to go mech when u have units like marauders and medivacs
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Cause marauders are not cost efficient anymore when toss gets a certain number of colossi or Templar. It is still good if you know how to utilize them but Terran is gonna have to find alternatives
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Since you get seige first and don't even start blue flame until 50+ supply, isn't your worst nightmare a protoss who starts a 3rd nexus when he sees your passive play? By the time you have Hellions to use, he's got 50 probes and some stalkers at each base.
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On March 06 2011 01:15 Dante08 wrote: Cause marauders are not cost efficient anymore when toss gets a certain number of colossi or Templar. It is still good if you know how to utilize them but Terran is gonna have to find alternatives neither is mech cost efficent when protoss builds counter to it, u lose mobility and cant pressure the protoss early in game. Obv both have their pros and cons but i still think bio (with mixed mech like viking/medivacs maybe thor for FF stomping) is superior to mech in tvp match up.
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Ive been using a big variety in my TvP lately but my main compostion has been consisting of Marine, Tank, banchee, ghost. Then just mix in a few other support units such as a couple medvacs. If he get phinioex a couple thors will help. As well as raven are always good to have plus provide constant mobile detection. In my opening ive been going 1 rax marine then wall-off w/bunker then get factary asap. Then get a tank with siege. As well as adding on an additional raxas well as getting my eng bay for turrents for detection. Then start building my cc in base to expand. While throwing down one or 2 more bunker is key postions at my natural to defend. Then once youve been getting plently of scv's start getting out alot of tanks and marines. Then thrown down an armory along with an addintonal eng bay for double upgrade for your marines. And getting plus attack for your tanks. Then make sure to get ghost out just as your taking your third. As well as thwoing down dounle starports w/tech lab for banchees and a couple ravens for mobile detection. At this point depending on how the game is progressing you should start pushing out and hopefully put your army in a osition between the protss's main and natural. And the rest of his expos. This compstion really depends on key emps since it is so weak to ht's. Be sure to have at least 4 ghost optimly 6. Make sure to keep up the upgrades and steadly take your 4 and 5 as well. Also you can use the banchees for good harass as well as hellion drop work well. Also if your ravens are just sitting around doing nothing and protoss have an underprotoected base just thrown down a few a-turrents.
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Dang, I was thinking about writing a mech guide but this blows what I was going to write out of the water. Perhaps you should add what to do about warp prisms? I've found that even just one warp prism can wreck your day if it makes it into the main and drops dts zealots or basically anything for that matter.
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i couldn't resist.
I personally feel like the gist of this strategy is right, absolutely. But do you think marines would offer a much more versatile, cost effective and powerful backbone than Hellions or Thors? I feel like the ghosts do heavily specialize your army and tap into precious gas.
I also feel like mech is, just like in SC1, the most complex playstyle for Terran, but ultimately the best. I've toyed around with alot of mech-only in TvP and it's really, remarkably effective sometimes, but there are so many intricacies and timings that need to be fleshed out before it becomes a staple.
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On March 06 2011 02:46 Coriolis wrote: Dang, I was thinking about writing a mech guide but this blows what I was going to write out of the water. Perhaps you should add what to do about warp prisms? I've found that even just one warp prism can wreck your day if it makes it into the main and drops dts zealots or basically anything for that matter.
God tell me about warp prisms lololol, if you look at the minimaps I pretty much spam missile turrets around the perimeter of my base. It's not just for warp prisms but also for the almost inevitable transition to air.
On March 06 2011 03:06 Kyandid wrote:i couldn't resist. I personally feel like the gist of this strategy is right, absolutely. But do you think marines would offer a much more versatile, cost effective and powerful backbone than Hellions or Thors?
My main problem with marines is 1: they don't do a ton of damage against zealots (fully upgraded zealots have FOUR armor, and you really can't afford to pump both ground upgrades, vehicle upgrades, AND air upgrades), so late game you essentially end up with a bunch of 1/1 marines that do 3 damage against zealots.
Another reason is that marines provide almost no staying power. Your tanks are the main damage dealers, you need units to keep your tanks alive, not more fodder for the colossi/storm.
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Hi Griffith, I was thinking that if the protos is getting carriers then it would be a good idea to get ravens for the point defense drones. They could be very helpful with respect to that. Maybe you could add that to the guide or test it.
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On March 06 2011 03:17 djdoodoo wrote: Hi Griffith, I was thinking that if the protos is getting carriers then it would be a good idea to get ravens for the point defense drones. They could be very helpful with respect to that. Maybe you could add that to the guide or test it.
PDD is useless against interceptors
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On March 06 2011 03:19 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 03:17 djdoodoo wrote: Hi Griffith, I was thinking that if the protos is getting carriers then it would be a good idea to get ravens for the point defense drones. They could be very helpful with respect to that. Maybe you could add that to the guide or test it. PDD is useless against interceptors
Yeah PDD loses energy per shot. 8 interceptors each doing 2 shots means 16 shots a volley per carrier. Lets say 5 carriers. Thats 80 shots a volley.
Your gonna need alot of PDD. Your better off spamming AT.
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On March 06 2011 03:44 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 03:19 Griffith` wrote:On March 06 2011 03:17 djdoodoo wrote: Hi Griffith, I was thinking that if the protos is getting carriers then it would be a good idea to get ravens for the point defense drones. They could be very helpful with respect to that. Maybe you could add that to the guide or test it. PDD is useless against interceptors Yeah PDD loses energy per shot. 8 interceptors each doing 2 shots means 16 shots a volley per carrier. Lets say 5 carriers. Thats 80 shots a volley. Your gonna need alot of PDD. Your better off spamming AT. No. PDD is literally useless against interceptors. It does not stop interceptor shots.
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Like your guide. Nice to see people Trying to mech in TvP.
Ghosts are a big part of TvP because EMP counters units that counter Mech such as Archons and Immortals. People aren't willing these days to cut a Tank for a ghost these days. But if you think about it if you land an EMP its like a massive siege tank hit that knocks out all the shields.
I have finally concluded that their is only 1 weakness to mech that i can't seem to figure out and its how to prevent the Stalker Collosi Blink in base. Its pretty much impossible to defend against unless you move all your tanks in position with Vikings. And alot of times they can just Blink in and then Blink out.
When they do this with Observers its not an issue because a Turret with Range can prevent observer Spotting, but with Collosi i just don;t now how to defend this. Collosi Blink is just so mobile.
If this can be figured out i personally think mech can be viable.
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On March 06 2011 05:47 GinDo wrote: Like your guide. Nice to see people Trying to mech in TvP.
Ghosts are a big part of TvP because EMP counters units that counter Mech such as Archons and Immortals. People aren't willing these days to cut a Tank for a ghost these days. But if you think about it if you land an EMP its like a massive siege tank hit that knocks out all the shields.
I have finally concluded that their is only 1 weakness to mech that i can't seem to figure out and its how to prevent the Stalker Collosi Blink in base. Its pretty much impossible to defend against unless you move all your tanks in position with Vikings. And alot of times they can just Blink in and then Blink out.
When they do this with Observers its not an issue because a Turret with Range can prevent observer Spotting, but with Collosi i just don;t now how to defend this. Collosi Blink is just so mobile.
If this can be figured out i personally think mech can be viable.
Use planetary fortress to seal off weak points (ie. Cliffs). Trust me a 550/150 investment is literally next to nothing when you have 3+ bases. PFs buy you critical time to get a surround on the toss army and not to mention, make protoss trade army cost ineffectively.
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On March 05 2011 20:20 hi im new wrote: i played vs mech 2 games in a row just now and was able to win very easily with blink stalker phoenix immortal
so tip for protosses who struggle against this: don't build colossi against mech, do build phoenixes to negate blue flame faggotry because just 3 or 4 helions can instantly win the game for the terran. also they are quite good at lifting tanks and even if they die shortly thereafter, just negating a few tank and thor hits can be a huge deal considering immortals will plow through tanks in seconds once they actually get to them. obviously ghosts can be lifted as well.
Collosi are actually one of the better units to make vs mech, they are really good at cutting hellions, stopping hellions from running by, and they are good at focusing balled up tanks down in big confrontations.
I'd make an even mixture of collosi and immortals, and then tech to templar to feedback the ghosts.
The way you beat mech as protoss is to build up a huge robo/high templar composition that can at least bust through most of the terrans mech ball, and then you throw down like 20 warpgates lategame to instantly reinforce to take out the rest of his mech ball before he can reinforce it. "300 food push"
There's no secret way to beat mech, you just have to out econ him and play better, and attack from good angles.
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Late game the way you beat blink stalker play is by just base trading him. "Oh he has a bunch of weak stalkers running around and I have 25 tanks 2 ravens with full energy for 4 PDD's, 4 ghosts with full energy to EMP, and a bunch of vikings to snipe collosi? Kay, I'm just going to lift all my shit, float to the island and go kill his base since he maxed out on such a weak army."
Blink stalker play is strongest when you're trying to transition from 3 bases to 4 bases, because you havent gotten all your defenses completely in place yet. Wherever he decides to blink to you have to surround with tanks and make it so he has to commit his entire army or leave before doing any kind of huge damage. If he snipes your CC and gets away it means you didnt react fast enough or he's about to lose his entire army. Or it means he has a mothership and recalled away. Motherships are a whole different story though.
Sniping motherships with vikings isn't too hard when his entire army is off trying to kill your 4th or main base though.
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Mech is still not a good strategy to do too often imo.
It is good on certain maps and spawns when siege tanks can cover most lines of attack and it is good as a switch or against sentry heavy army. Using it all the time and on all maps is just bad though I think because there are so many problems with mech which on some maps are just too troublesome. For example it can be hard to secure your natural with mech if it's too open especially if the map is small, i definately wouldn't recommend mech on xel naga caverns.
Overall I think that alot of protoss are still very uncomfortable to play against mech though, I know I am. Speedrays used to be the simple answer as without marines you simply couldn't beat them now I'm not really sure what the best answer is. Opening with colossi/immortal while expoing alot and then switching into mass carrier is probably the best protoss strat against mech but I'm not sure. Perhaps are colossi not even worth it either as they get shot down quickly by tanks.
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i wonder, has jinro said why he didn't go mech in GSL? it's pretty hilarious actually how everyone was so excited about his mech...and then he goes MMM+viking+ghost, just like everyone else :/
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Griffith, great guide. As a protoss I really needed to see what the reasoning behind mech was because even though I face it from time to time, it doesn't feel like they are getting it right. As P I regularly go HT/Immortal against Terran, which is so strong vs bio. But the good players who use mech utterly decimate HT/Immortal, and it is really hard as Protoss to get the right unit comp to counter mech.
Not to mention after a battle when you are mineral heavy, you can't just warp in a big round of zealots because of the hellions; makes decisions harder and puts a burden on the Protoss player to plan better too.
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Me Bixs (im about the same level 2500 + 400 bonus) vs 3k master toss...
I win on Xel Naga
I play suboptimal to say the least, and protoss tries to adapt to the ghost+mech style..
At one point I attack with unseiged tanks, guess what?.. turns out they work better sieged! Who knew?!.. anyway.. thors are great!
He whines in the end, asking for advice on how to beat the unit mix. I replay I don't know which angers him... :S...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146796-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
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I like the idea of having your tougher Thors tank the Tank splash (lol). Out of curiosity, do you get planetary fortresses at bases 3-5, or do you rely on your siege line to protect them and get more orbitals for mules/scans?
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so you are getting siege tanks out of the factory right? but siege mode comes delayed? I read the whole post but never saw what you did exactly out of the first tech lab factory, I assume it doesn't just sit there.
when does the 2nd factory come into play? Are you just sitting on 1 rax 1 factory for 12 minutes? I'm confused.
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TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed. Honestly I just want my old tank stats back. Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now. Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
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On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote: TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed. Honestly I just want my old tank stats back. Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now. Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
what you suggest would completely break TvZ
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On March 06 2011 08:41 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote: TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed. Honestly I just want my old tank stats back. Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now. Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
what you suggest would completely break TvZ
How would it break TvZ? lol would barely affect the standard Ling/Bling Muta. I guess if Zerg went mass roach after +1 weapons he'd be screwed but then again when does mass roach actually succeed in TvZ?
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Guys lets not turn this into another balance discussion =D
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On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote: TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed. Honestly I just want my old tank stats back. Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now. Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
But but but youu...
Pro players have been saying this for a long time, mech does not work, yet, as a standard strategy. It works on lower levels cos Protoss players do not know how to abuse the lack of mobility. You can not attack either until you have 34875 tanks+upgrades or you get raped.
LZ said he plays some mech now and i'd love to see his replays at some point. Fact is, a lot of things can work in this game if the opponent does not know how to react but, that does not make a strategy good/ viable/ standard etc. Tanks have been over-nerfed. They were strong, yes, but they made up for the lack of mines. Fuck Marauders!
EDIT: Sorry Griffith (for the Tank focuss). I like the Guide and i will try to incorporate more PFs. Good work
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I personally open 2 rax no gas into FE. mass marine.. bunker xpo.. when 3 tanks pop go to contain the P. then transition into tank/vikingmed/marine/turret bunker contain. 19-1 with it. lost on shakuras plateau to VVV time cross map.. failure to deny certain angles cost game or i win.
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Canada504 Posts
This is the answer to high templar, please don't nerf them blizzard T_T
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On March 06 2011 09:33 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote: TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed. Honestly I just want my old tank stats back. Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now. Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
But but but youu... Pro players have been saying this for a long time, mech does not work, yet, as a standard strategy. It works on lower levels cos Protoss players do not know how to abuse the lack of mobility. You can not attack either until you have 34875 tanks+upgrades or you get raped. LZ said he plays some mech now and i'd love to see his replays at some point. Fact is, a lot of things can work in this game if the opponent does not know how to react but, that does not make a strategy good/ viable/ standard etc. Tanks have been over-nerfed. They were strong, yes, but they made up for the lack of mines. Fuck Marauders! EDIT: Sorry Griffith (for the Tank focuss ). I like the Guide and i will try to incorporate more PFs. Good work
I'm telling you guys, if you put up PFs at your key choke points it becomes nearly fucking impossible for protoss to be "mobile" short of going carriers. I used to have this problem ALL the time when I played vs P that just went blink stalkers + colossi, I knew I could completely own the unit combo if only I could find a way to force a fight. By putting up PFs around the map, you make it really difficult for the protoss to engage anything without taking heavy losses.
oh, added some replays.
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... why would you post a rep vs me playing as toss when I've played 10 protoss games?
Might as well put the one before it where you died to a 10 gate 2 zeal rush? lol Oh what people will do.
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On March 06 2011 10:07 iAmJeffReY wrote: ... why would you post a rep vs me playing as toss when I've played 10 protoss games?
Might as well put the one before it where you died to a 10 gate 2 zeal rush? lol Oh what people will do.
Sorry i uploaded the wrong one lol I'll remove it
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Canada504 Posts
You can feedback PDDs.
Griffith lets play some PvTs and get you more replay fodder.
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On March 06 2011 09:49 Griffith` wrote:
I'm telling you guys, if you put up PFs at your key choke points it becomes nearly fucking impossible for protoss to be "mobile" short of going carriers. I used to have this problem ALL the time when I played vs P that just went blink stalkers + colossi, I knew I could completely own the unit combo if only I could find a way to force a fight. By putting up PFs around the map, you make it really difficult for the protoss to engage anything without taking heavy losses.
oh, added some replays.
You noted in another post(can't find it now) that once your third is up you can afford to make defensive PF's (non-mining PF's). What about before you can get your third up/PFs up? The trouble I've experienced is dealing with lots of blink stalker/warp prism harass while I'm on 2 base and trying to get a third - I dont have the economy to start throwing down defensive PF's meant soley for defending my cliffs/back side.
The obvious answer to me was to turtle up until you have enough defense to deflect his aggression while still having enough units to take and hold your third, but that lets the toss take an easy third that will come much earlier than yours. I don't believe mech units at mid game are cost efficient enough to make up for the economic gap.
If the toss is smart, he'll sim city his mineral lines and drop 2 cannons so your hellion harass is ineffective.
I've been throwing around the idea of doing thor drops to obtain map control (mech version of marauder drops) but it's too risky considering thors are slow to replace, do less damage per full drop ship, and cost more gas.
Maybe mech + bio drops? Research stim and make enough marines or marauders to fill 2 dropships for map control?
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Yes spamming PFs are fun - map becomes like sim city :o)
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I really like how you've found away to substitute the weakness of a mech army without spidermines... but i think this is sign to show blizzard how much taking out the spidermine affected mech and its not like spider mines were imbalanced
anyway, i have been getting better with how to use this build and i am glad that someone has been improving on this play style
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Ya... These replays are complete bullshit. This thread is an 100% e-penis booster, and that's it. Sorry to be so harsh on you, but you wasted my time by making a really nice theorycraft thread, then provide hideous replays for it.
CLS and Stition look pretty good. Not denying that. Except in those games you killed 30+ probes for free. Well, duh, you should win with anything after that. Also, they both decided to hand over their armies for free. Any protoss that runs their army into a turtle terran army will of course lose.
The game against the carriers. Well, hm, let's see. Once again, protoss runs into you head on, but not only against a normal terran composition, but against PFs, battle cruisers, and plenty of ghosts. I wonder who is going to win that battle... I wonder why he didn't just blink into your main and gut you that way. On top of all that, this is FAR from a typical game (unless your avilo).
Please provide replays of both players playing very well, instead of showing us two toss losing more than half of their probes, and throwing their armies into yours for free. And the other one playing like a moron.
The protoss didn't even drop one DT, never even thought of making a warp prism, and just LOVED to throw away their armies for free.
Not to kick a dead horse, but what jeffrey said : On March 06 2011 10:07 iAmJeffReY wrote: ... why would you post a rep vs me playing as toss when I've played 10 protoss games?
Might as well put the one before it where you died to a 10 gate 2 zeal rush? lol Oh what people will do. pretty much sums up the thread. Just makes me think even more that you are 'prettying up' your thread by adding weak replays. And.... ( I know I don't show mercy ) all the maps are on shattered temple. Having fun in custom are we?
I'll check back and hopefully see a replay of a protoss who plays smart and doesn't lose half his economy for free. Or you could just keep buffing your ego and post some more really bad replays
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I noticed that even jinro was floating alot of minerals in his TvP vs axslave (who that was spelled right?) Which definitely could have been used to prevent the chargelots and immortals getting a good attack surface, on top of that he didn't get ghost ? dunno why... he was even facing HT still no ghost
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Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
Here's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP.
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damnit, i hope no good terrans i play on ladder (mid-high masters) figure out how to use mech properly. It's actually quite strong if done correctly (good harass, good expo+upgrade+siege timing) and pretty much decimated a lot of late game toss army compositions if executed nigh perfectly.
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In my opinion the real innovation here is the PF's.. for me at the very least it is making mech much more durable.. at the 3kish master lvl EU
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On March 05 2011 13:14 Joedaddy wrote: I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.
Where did he say this? :O I wanna listen to it!
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On March 06 2011 12:28 Bixs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 13:14 Joedaddy wrote: I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.
Where did he say this? :O I wanna listen to it!
He probably said it on his stream sometime after he got picked apart by Hasu with blink/collossi which seems to be the common European counter to Mech and Europeans use Mech way more than us US Terrans do so EU Toss's have more experience dealing with it especially with players like GoOdy.
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On March 06 2011 12:19 QQmonster wrote:Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisHere's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP. Learn to read... I said his guide was good. Nice ad hominem fallacy??! ...
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 12:19 QQmonster wrote:Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisHere's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP.
Don't wanna sound like a jerk.. but that was a horrible move with the mass tanks - in the start, didn't feel like higher level play? :S
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146892-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk
another replay of mid masters toss, lots of very aggressive play, and I didn't manage to kill as many probes early game
(Far did beat me on the same map previous when we spawned close positions on Shattered Temple) This strategy is hard to pull off when you don't have a continuous path of expansions.
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I did see the vs cLs game on shattered, and I agree it was fairly weak. The protoss loses the game about 13 mins in when his stalker/immortal push whiffs horrendously and the Terran spends the next 18 minutes securing the win even though he could of just a-moved the protoss at that point. Killing 50 probes just made it more laughable.
But I'm not entirely sure about mech in general. I doubt it'll be a worthy strat because protoss will learn how to counter that shit hard with their vast array of counters, but i dunno.
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On March 06 2011 12:47 Bixs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 12:19 QQmonster wrote:Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisHere's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP. Don't wanna sound like a jerk.. but that was a horrible move with the mass tanks - in the start, didn't feel like higher level play? :S
what do you mean massing tanks was a horrible move? thats the point of mech...
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 13:31 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 12:47 Bixs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 12:19 QQmonster wrote:Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisHere's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP. Don't wanna sound like a jerk.. but that was a horrible move with the mass tanks - in the start, didn't feel like higher level play? :S
what do you mean massing tanks was a horrible move? thats the point of mech...
I hope your not serious ? oO You can't expect to mass tanks and nothing else and do massive damage to any competent protoss. Chargelots will flank you, immortals will tank you like a beast, HT will storm you, phoenix will lift you.
At the very least you want a good positional advantage..
Imo, mech is thor, tanks and hellions. Not only massing tanks?
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Canada504 Posts
rawr
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On March 06 2011 14:10 Bixs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 13:31 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 12:47 Bixs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 06 2011 12:19 QQmonster wrote:Lol, stop bashing on his play. His guide is good regardless of his individual level lof play. It's called a ad hominem fallacy to attack a persons argument based on their individual merit, and not their actual argument. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisHere's a little bit higher level replay of the same strategy he talks about in the OP. Don't wanna sound like a jerk.. but that was a horrible move with the mass tanks - in the start, didn't feel like higher level play? :S what do you mean massing tanks was a horrible move? thats the point of mech... I hope your not serious ? oO You can't expect to mass tanks and nothing else and do massive damage to any competent protoss. Chargelots will flank you, immortals will tank you like a beast, HT will storm you, phoenix will lift you. At the very least you want a good positional advantage.. Imo, mech is thor, tanks and hellions. Not only massing tanks?
I never had only tanks.. at the start there were bunkers with marines + turrets... later on i had hellions ghosts and ravens and vikings...
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I was going to make a thread like this when I switched to full mech 2 weeks ago, except instead of PF's I was using salvage bunkers to create a mobile wall that I could leap frog to the enemys base. But then I started posting in some of the TvP threads talking about a mech build in replys and got sick of defending something that nobody is willing to even try out for a few games instead I get this
-Oh well tanks are garbage -Oh well therees no way you could mech -Oh well why you would you mech when you can go bio -Oh well this will rape mech -Oh well that will rape mech
I repsonded with the same question twice asking if people had even tried mech and nobobdy replied.
So damn annoying I decided not to post the thread and now you have and you seem to be getting the same shit storm that was going to happen to me if I posted it.
Mech will become standard in TvP, Its only a matter of time. You cant build tier 1.5 units the entire game and expect the meta game to not adapt. Theres so many T's ive seen on this forum who bitch about late game TvP and cant seem to think that going solely tier 1.5 could maybe be a problem.
Anyways nice thread, keep on theorycrafting everybody, I mean who tries a build out anymore...
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Canada504 Posts
I'm at a loss as to how to beat this late game. X-positions on ST, it's really hard to avoid splitting the map, and mech with PF's and turrets everywhere is just not breakable. Yeah there are some potential holes where some kind of 1 base break might work, but my style is macro oriented and I am very good at forcing the late game against bio and then winning with mass gateways and mass storm... but that doesn't work against this. Immortals are bad in large numbers, colossus are vulnerable to the turrets... basically you have to do some kind of stargate transition but mass carriers has so many pitfalls, and if u blanket the map with turrets like griffith does, then this is not going to be easy.
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On March 06 2011 16:15 XXXSmOke wrote: I was going to make a thread like this when I switched to full mech 2 weeks ago, except instead of PF's I was using salvage bunkers to create a mobile wall that I could leap frog to the enemys base. But then I started posting in some of the TvP threads talking about a mech build in replys and got sick of defending something that nobody is willing to even try out for a few games instead I get this
-Oh well tanks are garbage -Oh well therees no way you could mech -Oh well why you would you mech when you can go bio -Oh well this will rape mech -Oh well that will rape mech
I repsonded with the same question twice asking if people had even tried mech and nobobdy replied.
So damn annoying I decided not to post the thread and now you have and you seem to be getting the same shit storm that was going to happen to me if I posted it.
Mech will become standard in TvP, Its only a matter of time. You cant build tier 1.5 units the entire game and expect the meta game to not adapt. Theres so many T's ive seen on this forum who bitch about late game TvP and cant seem to think that going solely tier 1.5 could maybe be a problem.
Anyways nice thread, keep on theorycrafting everybody, I mean who tries a build out anymore...
Then maybe you can post some replays that would quiet the naysayers? All of the replays posted so far show either really passive protoss or protoss's who keep trying to attack into an entrenched mech army. I'd like to see replays that address the theoretically strong counters to terran mech (good early/all game long blink play, collosus abusing cliffs, mass expanding, good sim city to block helions, warp prism harass before the T can cover everything with turrets and you're spread out, etc)
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On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote: The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
If he delays the CC and gets the tank+ siege first the build is safe vs. everything in my experience (assuming reactor rax, bunkers, and repair). However, usually at that point though most P will have enough to defend anything you can push with and simply get a fast third and stomp you.
My experience anyway.
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I was referring to the hellions, tank push you made after getting warp prisme'd.
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I'm at a loss as to how to beat this late game. X-positions on ST, it's really hard to avoid splitting the map, and mech with PF's and turrets everywhere is just not breakable. Yeah there are some potential holes where some kind of 1 base break might work, but my style is macro oriented and I am very good at forcing the late game against bio and then winning with mass gateways and mass storm... but that doesn't work against this. Immortals are bad in large numbers, colossus are vulnerable to the turrets... basically you have to do some kind of stargate transition but mass carriers has so many pitfalls, and if u blanket the map with turrets like griffith does, then this is not going to be easy.
Just saying here... it's mech. He's wasted money on PFs. He's wasted money on turrets. His sole savior is his army doesn't die every engagement because he doesn't engage at all.
What beats mech cost for cost? V-V-V-V-V-V-VOIDRAYS!
Get a Mship and voidrays, or hell ever carriers. He goes into a ball with thors, vortex, and just the voidrays run wild.
You can't sit passive and macro against this cheesey slow push because you will lose 90% of the time once he gets moving with PF's and turrets. It's just mech with that kind of ball size and upgrades will literally shit on you.
Then maybe you can post some replays that would quiet the naysayers? All of the replays posted so far show either really passive protoss or protoss's who keep trying to attack into an entrenched mech army. I'd like to see replays that address the theoretically strong counters to terran mech (good early/all game long blink play, collosus abusing cliffs, mass expanding, good sim city to block helions, warp prism harass before the T can cover everything with turrets and you're spread out, etc)
Exactly. I believe early 3 gate blink stalkers can walk right past and hit when he only has 2-3 tanks max, and force unsieging and just general havoc. The key for protoss players is to NOT play passive as they like to do, and scout and be very aggressive to keep him on 2 bases and not expanding.
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is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ? i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds
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On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote: is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ? i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds
You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR
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Canada504 Posts
On March 07 2011 03:30 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote: is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ? i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR You haven't play against my 3 gate stargate >
Remember about the marine range vs. warp range of a pylon? Spotting with a depot just gives the void something to charge on.
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On March 07 2011 05:38 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 03:30 Griffith` wrote:On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote: is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ? i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR You haven't play against my 3 gate stargate > Remember about the marine range vs. warp range of a pylon? Spotting with a depot just gives the void something to charge on.
A 1 Rax factory shouldn't get demolished by fast VR because the siege tanks keep the gateway units away so your basically relying on your VR vs Marines and turrets trying to get at the tanks. I've held off a ton of 3 gate VR contains. It only hurts because usually they'll expand before you as you are contained but it's never gg due to quick VRs unless your sloppy which isn't a strategy fault.
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Once again, Griffith, you're going to make me fail my classes
Because I really want to try this.
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I like you're strat, but I do think marines are a crucial part of any terran build, their dps is just too ridiculous to ignore. If you want to see a well executed mech v toss build you should check out MC vs Jinro from last season. It was a 2-0 by Jinro and the first game was on LT, can't really remember the second game was played, but it was a complete and utter outclassing of the best PvT in the world.
I think a lot of what you've cover holds true, but instead of the PFs Jinro included marines. He was constantly upgrading at his armories, and he included some ravens and vikings into his mix, not a lot, but just enough to stop pheonixes from having their way with the tanks. I also think medivacs are ESSENTIAL for mech play, to keep the toss on his heels with hellions and keep him from getting too big.
It seemed like the most important part of his strat, and what separates his mech play from other fail mech play, is his supplementing of his force with bunkered marines and lots of turrets. This makes immortals MUCH less effective and also gives some coverage against VRs and pheonixes. This makes mech pushes almost unstoppable.
I don't think talk of massing voidrays and carriers should ever come into a discussion about this, because toss should never be able to get THAT far ahead, and have that much time to produce a force without you knowing. Hellions should be poking and prodding all game long so you should have a tab of what they are doing. It should never come to the point where you're like, "oh shit, he's got 8 carriers." That's just ridiculous.
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On March 07 2011 10:41 fire_brand wrote: I like you're strat, but I do think marines are a crucial part of any terran build, their dps is just too ridiculous to ignore. If you want to see a well executed mech v toss build you should check out MC vs Jinro from last season. It was a 2-0 by Jinro and the first game was on LT, can't really remember the second game was played, but it was a complete and utter outclassing of the best PvT in the world.
I think a lot of what you've cover holds true, but instead of the PFs Jinro included marines. He was constantly upgrading at his armories, and he included some ravens and vikings into his mix, not a lot, but just enough to stop pheonixes from having their way with the tanks. I also think medivacs are ESSENTIAL for mech play, to keep the toss on his heels with hellions and keep him from getting too big.
It seemed like the most important part of his strat, and what separates his mech play from other fail mech play, is his supplementing of his force with bunkered marines and lots of turrets. This makes immortals MUCH less effective and also gives some coverage against VRs and pheonixes. This makes mech pushes almost unstoppable.
I don't think talk of massing voidrays and carriers should ever come into a discussion about this, because toss should never be able to get THAT far ahead, and have that much time to produce a force without you knowing. Hellions should be poking and prodding all game long so you should have a tab of what they are doing. It should never come to the point where you're like, "oh shit, he's got 8 carriers." That's just ridiculous.
On the topic of protoss cheese sneaking air units against mech, what's even more difficult when you mech is knowing how many vikings to make.
So you've scouted the stargate, and it's been there for a while. Can you be sure if he cut production or if he's hiding them in the corner of the map?? It's tough to say, and you have to be good at looking at his unit composition and being like "ok hes hiding gas somewhere"
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Usually I have enough missile turrets spammed around my base that it buys me enough time to mass reactor vikings, I typically only make vikings until I see either MASS colossi or MASS air.
Trust me whatever silly harass shenanigans SC2 protoss may have (eg. Colossi/Blink, warp prism, phoenix harass) ain't got NOTHING on arbiter recalls and reaver drops
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Hellions will not be able to prod against any P that gets phoenix.
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Gotta say that i was amazed when i watched the "Unit lost" tab after each rep... and thats kinda the all point of mech - Cost effectivness
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Canada504 Posts
On March 07 2011 13:57 Griffith` wrote:Trust me whatever silly harass shenanigans SC2 protoss may have (eg. Colossi/Blink, warp prism, phoenix harass) ain't got NOTHING on arbiter recalls and reaver drops Yeah really. I tried using immortal drops and failed miserably. Prisms are sort of useful but they don't move your army, the just give you another spot to create it from, and you can warp in robotics units which are stronger against mech...
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(nvm...thought of a broodwar-like problem, but didn't think of the brood-war like solution... how do I delete)
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I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
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On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy.
The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line).
Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
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On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
I belive you, but what do you suggest then? I mean.. The maps are getting bigger and both Protoss and Zerg have easy time making it to late game where your 1.5 tier bioball melts within few seconds and you spend rest of the game throwing infinite bio at wall..
I don't get how its possible people still find it better to spam bio late game and try to pull off tricks that works only early/mid game (aka drops). I feel way more frustrated when whole my bio army gets obliterated and there is literally nothing I can do then being caught out of potision, which is something I can work on..
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On March 07 2011 19:31 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. I belive you, but what do you suggest then? I mean.. The maps are getting bigger and both Protoss and Zerg have easy time making it to late game where your 1.5 tier bioball melts within few seconds and you spend rest of the game throwing infinite bio at wall.. I don't get how its possible people still find it better to spam bio late game and try to pull off tricks that works only early/mid game (aka drops). I feel way more frustrated when whole my bio army gets obliterated and there is literally nothing I can do then being caught out of potision, which is something I can work on..
I think many terrans are looking for a sollution, but no one found it yet. Pro players are still using MMM because it's the most (and only) working thing atm. It's sad to be a terran these days...
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On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D
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On March 07 2011 19:37 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D
Well it's like 2 weeks ago I played so there is some inflation :p. 2 weeks ago it was 3k
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On March 07 2011 19:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:37 rauk wrote:On March 07 2011 19:08 Dente wrote:On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote: I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy. The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line). Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me. well in my experience mech works wonders up to 3281 masters, but above i have no idea. :D Well it's like 2 weeks ago I played so there is some inflation :p. 2 weeks ago it was 3k
well ogs supernova just opened up with siege expand and a low marine count so we could see tonight whether or not mech works at code A :D
nvm 3 rax
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The next thing is - how is it possible people see mobility as the main issue when going mech TvP where in TvZ where the difference in mobility is even more visible we do see a lot of mech play even at the top level?
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Mech works up to 3,5-3,6k for me, but so far I still have some feelings that your opponent has to do things wrong instead of you doing things right. Still have to figure out how to deal with some protoss reactions correctly with little information and without getting every tech unit possible.
My TvP games always feel very onesided, even against opponents which did a lot of things wrong, I still have to figure out how I correctly deal with some transitions protoss do in midgame and how I can get a fast expansion while being safe against early blink stalkers.
Most times it is just very hard to see if they are getting for example 1 stargate VR or a second robo pumping out some more immortals in the back of their base, which require very different unit compositions for me. But the overall unit which haunts me the most in my TvPs is blink stalkers, I just don't see a good way to overcome them with mech, maybe I have to get more thors in the mid game against blink stalkers.
Pretty clueless atm :/ If any 3-3,4k protoss player is available to practice a lot of mech TvPs on the europe server please contact me
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I do a 0-3 mass thor build (and it's not a transition from a failed 2 thor rush, I completely skip that and expand instead) where I add starport units and marines as needed. Much like the above poster I feel the build is based on my opponent being clueless rather than me performing well. Mech builds are just so painfully passive that my APM goes from 90-100 average when playing bio to 60-70 when playing with thors.
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Thanks for the guide. I like that mech has so much interest in it these days, it's much more interesting and better than bio imo. It just looks much more difficult.
To the naysayers, have you seen the sadist replays? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193736¤tpage=10 He seems to be doing quite well with mech, crushing notable players who try all sorts of the supposedly unbeatable antimech tricks on him.
I don't really understand why some people have to come to every mech thread and say its impossible using their personal experience as evidence. I could find lots of BW games where low level T was raped by P, but that doesn't make mech unviable in that game.
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All of those here who are like " MECH IS SHIT, HE JUST MASS ZELS, IMMOS, VRS!!" gotta really watch griffin's reps.
Alot of the games the toss just quited before 1 tank was not even close to his base, you guys really need to watch the Unit lost tab bar, or watch jinro vs MC on LT, all the point of this BO is cost effetivness with sick AOE in battles, and the terran really rule this one if the toss enage a seige line with PFs hellions and thors
Yeah, you guys might give the toss a bigger map control with expos (which will give him harder time to defend vs helions) but as long as you lost 1 mineral to 3-4 of his in battles, its like you're the one with the more income... think about it.
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Well 1 don't listen to Dente EVER about Mech he just has this passion for putting it down in EVERY Mech TvP thread including mine.
2 It's obviously good above 3k masters because top level Koreans do heavy Tank/Mech play a lot nowadays.
3 It is true that playing Mech means the onus is on YOU the Terran to be the better player in the game. You typically won't get lucky although it really helps when you do but you must full on outplay your opponent whereas MMM sometimes the weaker player can triumph however also the better Terran can also be crushed going MMM.
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Example 1 upon per request for replay.
Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions.
I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well.
You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same.
Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview
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Griffith, I suggest you read Yens thread. It's a 1-1-1 FE with cloakshee harass into a thor marine banshee raven push. From there, it does so much damage that you're just set in a good spot, already 1-1-1 with an expo and thor tech opened.
I got a rep of it in action if ya want, or go watch his as he's like 3.9k
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So after reading this guide and watching the replays I figured I would give the build a shot and use it on the ladder. I used it against a protoss on shatered temple and I absolutly dominated. I quickly decimated the protoss army using the ghosts and siege tanks and harassed with blue flame hellions. I even made quite a few minor mistakes (not expanding fast enough, having too many minerals, etc.) But this build worked great.
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On March 08 2011 09:13 iAmJeffReY wrote: Griffith, I suggest you read Yens thread. It's a 1-1-1 FE with cloakshee harass into a thor marine banshee raven push. From there, it does so much damage that you're just set in a good spot, already 1-1-1 with an expo and thor tech opened.
I got a rep of it in action if ya want, or go watch his as he's like 3.9k
reps please.
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On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview
I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!!
ALso, when you win a big fight like the later one you should actually just pull back your tanks and remax as he will be building up gateway units which get owned hard by mech compositions, instead of skirmishing with mass warp ins with your remaining tanks.
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On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!!
Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that.
Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works.
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On March 08 2011 12:32 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!! Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that. Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works.
Have you tried not making thors when you mech? I generally only produce them if i scout an air tech switch and know I wont be able to get enough starport units out in time. I also kind of find the 1 tech lab 1 reactor opening kind of peculiar. Usually I get 2 tech labs producing tanks and then add a reactor factory. I think you might find you power up a lot faster and can take your third a lot safer if you try that.
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On March 08 2011 12:43 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 12:32 XXXSmOke wrote:On March 08 2011 12:26 QQmonster wrote:On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview I watched your replay and just some criticism of your play is you need to use dropships more, have at least 1 raven for PDD and DT detection, and once you get your 4th up you can actually just take a 5th and 6th with your extra minerals, and put down a bunch of planetary fortresses and turrets around the map since youre maxed and are floating thousands of resources. You also need to use sensor towers!!! Yea that was closer to when I first switched when i was still learning the ins and outs of the mech build, in fact the game after that was on shaks and the guy did a sneak attack through the rocks and almost won, so sensor towers are mandatory mid game now for me. Drop ships are also used now because every Toss does a good sim city to try and stop hellion harass so they are required. Yea I hadnt thought of mass PF's after your maxed til i saw this thread so im going to start incorporating that. Thanks for the feedback, I hope some other people can see this and get a better idea of how to play mech as well and see how it works. Have you tried not making thors when you mech? I generally only produce them if i scout an air tech switch and know I wont be able to get enough starport units out in time. I also kind of find the 1 tech lab 1 reactor opening kind of peculiar. Usually I get 2 tech labs producing tanks and then add a reactor factory. I think you might find you power up a lot faster and can take your third a lot safer if you try that.
I used to skip thors, but I have found that having 2-4 Thors w repair scvs adds amazing fire power/tankability/counters any possible phx play/carrier play. They are espcially awesome in the mid game when your taking your third and dont quite have that critical mass of tanks yet to stop the toss.
So a few thors is good, its bad imo to skip thors and its also bad to build too many thors.
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This seems like a very promising build. All the different aspects of the build appear to cover each other very well. For instance:
-Mech is extremely efficient. -Add Ghosts to make your Mech even more efficient, especially against Immortals -Cover your mobility weakness by using Terran's static D and sensor towers. You will have the money to make these things because Mech is more efficient. -PF's and Turrets are so cost efficient (especially with the upgrades) that your overall efficiency will still be better than your opponent's even with mass static D. -Once you partition off your half of the map, the 2 players basically have equal resources to use. But because the Mech and PF/Turrets are more efficient, the other player will have a much higher "value lost" stat and thus lose.
The only potential way to stop this is to use mass hallucinate to fool sensor towers but Sentries won't be that useful in a direct fight against Mech so it might be a wash.
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On March 08 2011 12:55 Sevenofnines wrote: The only potential way to stop this is to use mass hallucinate to fool sensor towers but Sentries won't be that useful in a direct fight against Mech so it might be a wash.
Well not really. Personally when i see red on my sensor towers my 1st instinct is to scan. Scan reveals hallucinations.
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tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\
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one way to combat mech is doing cheesy stuff when youre transitioning bases, like taking your natural with a mech opening can be tricky, taking your third without getting busted open and getting your fourth without being harrassed to smithereens or tech switched on can be tricky as well.
in a macro game protoss imo needs to do high templar and DT harrass to slow the terran down, and build up a big robotics buster army and then do a 300 food push with mass warpgates to warp in high templar/DT/zealots to clean up. archons are really good at cleaning up if they get the chance to because their high health is made better by the fact that the tank numbers have been beaten down.
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I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
If I was to put myself in the tosses shoes....
Id try and treat it more like chess, you gota be extremely patient. You have to find weak spots in his positioning and use that to your advantage. You have also got to step up the harass, warp prism templar is good, small groups of blink stalks can be good. You have also got to be able to flank well vs a mech army. Then just focus on the economy take that down til you overwhelm him.
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Canada504 Posts
They key here is to avoid splitting the map with the Terran. If you allow the Terran to be on equal bases to you in the end game, you WILL lose. Mech is super cost effective when you're forced to fight it head on. For the majority of the game, you can avoid fighting it, but there comes a time when you must fight it. Basically this occurs when there are turrets blanketing the whole goddamn map and PF's at key locations.
I've been thinking of the most effective ways to stop this style and I've come up with the following:
1) 1 base breaks. Griffth's opening is not airtight and with good control you can smash him with a couple of Protoss 1 base breaks. 3 gate stargate with a void ray spotting for a pylon to warp zealots up a cliff will defeat a terran making fewer than 2 barracks. 4 gate can also work, but it can work in any situation so yeah. Proper scouting and a refinement to the seige expand could probably fix this though. Terran's with super micro might also be able to kill u. Not a true answer, IMHO. 2) Aggressive expansions. Typically, you'll want to expand away from a terran player, but against a meching terran, it's better to make him engage to you win expansions. Fight him before the PF's and turrets are up. Fight him before the critical mass of tanks is up. Make him ATTACK you, don't ATTACK him, but make him ATTACK you before the foodcount gets too high. This is the close positions response. 3) 1 gate FE --> quick gold 3rd --> 3 base carrier. Before he has enough turrets. If he spams too many turrets, run him over with mass zealot/immortal. Risky as hell because you can be killed by an MM tech switch or just by mass thor/hellion in a timing before you have enough carriers to win. This is the cross positions response.
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How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but it is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
Edit: Also had a look at your sample build. I feel 15 Orbital is very arguable in its effectiveness as an opening. I wouldn't advertise it as standard play.
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On March 08 2011 13:25 wonderwall wrote: How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
With good positioning you can play mech on any map, in fact my favorite map to mech on is Xel Naga.
-With all the entry ways, hellion harass is incredible on this map.
-The middle gold base is a good frontal position setup. Once you take this you can use hellions to grab both towers and get some good map control.
- The other third is nice because you can put tanks on the cliffs around it or below it to expand your reach when you control the middle of the map.
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On March 08 2011 13:25 wonderwall wrote: How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
He blocks off alternate attack paths with PF's with the armor and range upgrade. The backdoor on Xelnaga can probably be held by a single PF, and you can lock down one of the center sides with PF's & Turrets while keeping your mech at the other. The only way this would break down is if it is a REALLY big map with many wide open attack paths.
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Canada504 Posts
I could beat this easily on Terminus or Taldarim, but on Shattered it's a pain. Xelnaga could also be tough.
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Nice guide. I might try it out, but with some changes.
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On March 08 2011 13:16 XXXSmOke wrote: I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
On March 08 2011 13:11 Griffith` wrote: tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\
You guys are obviously theorycrafting I'm sure you have never played a toss who gets hallucinations. I guess thats why you have no idea how ridiculously strong hallucinated immortals are against a tank heavy mech army. I know this because I've been raped by hallucinations in a couple of games.
All toss needs is 5 sentries (which are by no means a huge investment)and a 100ish food standard army pushing as your trying to get your third up. Trust me, you won't have the gas off 2 bases to make enough ghosts AND tanks that can deal with 10 fake immortals + bunch of real colossi and gateway units.
All these hallucinates ever need to do is to tank the first few shots to give the real army a perfect surround. Then its like havign your army caught unsieged in the middle of an open field. Guess what its gg. The thing is you can't tell your siege tanks not to hit the fake ones, even you know they are just hallucinations, if you manually control them you'll ruin smart fire.
The only good news is that most toss players think of hallucinations the way you do, ironically, and that is reason I still have sucess meching against toss on the ladder. If mech ever is to become popular, hallucinated immortals need to be fixed. Mark my words.
I play mech at 3400 master level btw.
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Shouldn't ravens reveal the hallucinations to the tanks' AI? If it doesn't, then abusing sentries hallucinate will be Toss' counter to mech. Btw, I AM theory crafting coz I seldom go mech. Can anybody verify?
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How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions? I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T
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On March 08 2011 16:24 BatCat wrote: How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions? I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T
The second you see collsi production you need to get vikings asap. In the mid game you cant really get ghosts yet so you have to use your hellions to focus fire down the immortals shields, this usually isnt to bad because the immortals tend to ball up so if you position your hellions right they can eat through the shields pretty quick. Hellion/Tank/Viking Is great versus collsi/immortal as long as your sieged up in a nice spread out position. Viking/Tank has great synergy as well if I can scout him before he engages I can usually use my vikings range to sneak some shots on the colllsi and if he gets too aggresive with his stalks he will lose a few as they get to close to my tank line. The Range of these units is a huge buffer for this build.
At what stage is he attacking you? Is he trying to deny your third? Hellion counter attacks are another factor in stopping protoss aggression. Hellion harass can force him to warp units back home rather than reinforce his attack. Ive even had some games where protoss will win the main fight, but will lose too many probes then with mass repair and new units popping out and siegeing on the cliffs I can barely hold out on the attack and then his economy is in shambles.
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On March 08 2011 15:14 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 13:16 XXXSmOke wrote: I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 13:11 Griffith` wrote: tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\ You guys are obviously theorycrafting I'm sure you have never played a toss who gets hallucinations. I guess thats why you have no idea how ridiculously strong hallucinated immortals are against a tank heavy mech army. I know this because I've been raped by hallucinations in a couple of games. All toss needs is 5 sentries (which are by no means a huge investment)and a 100ish food standard army pushing as your trying to get your third up. Trust me, you won't have the gas off 2 bases to make enough ghosts AND tanks that can deal with 10 fake immortals + bunch of real colossi and gateway units. All these hallucinates ever need to do is to tank the first few shots to give the real army a perfect surround. Then its like havign your army caught unsieged in the middle of an open field. Guess what its gg. The thing is you can't tell your siege tanks not to hit the fake ones, even you know they are just hallucinations, if you manually control them you'll ruin smart fire. The only good news is that most toss players think of hallucinations the way you do, ironically, and that is reason I still have sucess meching against toss on the ladder. If mech ever is to become popular, hallucinated immortals need to be fixed. Mark my words. I play mech at 3400 master level btw.
pretty sure you can't "ruin smart fire"
not saying that hallucinated immortals in front to soak up the first round can't work. It's just that even if you queue up targets the tanks will just smartfire within those targets and then additional ones when the queue is done.
Afaik they're just instant fire and therefore don't shoot stuff that isn't there.
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On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview You lost the first battle decisively, then the Toss just let you take an equal amount of bases and remax and massed pure immos which got owned because he engaged you in a choke. No one is saying mech doesn't work against opponents playing like retards.
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sorry double, delete please
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On March 09 2011 00:58 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview You lost the first battle decisively, then the Toss just let you take an equal amount of bases and remax and massed pure immos which got owned because he engaged you in a choke. No one is saying mech doesn't work against opponents playing like retards.
So after the first battle he had a 10 food advantage. Is that decisive? I disagree. If you notice I took my 4th with my intial attack, he didnt let me take it, theres nothing toss can really do to stop my third on that map either, because the cliff tanks are way to hard to take down for the toss. He engaged in that narrow spot because he wanted to get a vortex off when all my units were clumped, luckily I was able to get an emp off a second before the vortex could be cast.
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Since so many mech terrans complain that protosses go for a freebie-fast third vs mech, has anyone experimented with any SCV-cutting 2 base all in mech builds?
I know you can support 2 reactor and 4 tech lab factories off of 2 bases if you cut scv's, so if for some reason they didnt go for air units this might be a good attack timing. I'm still playing with it, but if they have no air and went for a fast third your sheer numbers can potentially overwhelm him . I'd like to see some terrans try this kind of 2 base attack.
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On March 09 2011 09:07 QQmonster wrote: Since so many mech terrans complain that protosses go for a freebie-fast third vs mech, has anyone experimented with any SCV-cutting 2 base all in mech builds?
I know you can support 2 reactor and 4 tech lab factories off of 2 bases if you cut scv's, so if for some reason they didnt go for air units this might be a good attack timing. I'm still playing with it, but if they have no air and went for a fast third your sheer numbers can potentially overwhelm him . I'd like to see some terrans try this kind of 2 base attack.
...how do you have enough gas to have 4 tech lab factories running?
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On March 09 2011 12:28 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 09:07 QQmonster wrote: Since so many mech terrans complain that protosses go for a freebie-fast third vs mech, has anyone experimented with any SCV-cutting 2 base all in mech builds?
I know you can support 2 reactor and 4 tech lab factories off of 2 bases if you cut scv's, so if for some reason they didnt go for air units this might be a good attack timing. I'm still playing with it, but if they have no air and went for a fast third your sheer numbers can potentially overwhelm him . I'd like to see some terrans try this kind of 2 base attack. ...how do you have enough gas to have 4 tech lab factories running?
Max on 2 bases you can produce 3 Fact Tanks. This how ever cuts into upgrades so i normally go 2 Fact Tanks with double ups.
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I usually dont do 2 fact tech lab until near the end of my 2 bases (Right as my 3rd is going up), then I go from 1 fact tech lab to 3 fact tech lab and start making double tanks and single thors while ghosting (In total at least 5 facts, 2 reactored, 3 tech labbed)
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On March 09 2011 13:30 Griffith` wrote: I usually dont do 2 fact tech lab until near the end of my 2 bases (Right as my 3rd is going up), then I go from 1 fact tech lab to 3 fact tech lab and start making double tanks and single thors while ghosting (In total at least 5 facts, 2 reactored, 3 tech labbed)
you actually can support 4 tech labs and 2 reactors off of 2 bases if you dont get any other tech or upgrades and cut scvs. with 3 tech labs you will get a surplus of gas, especially if you dont macro perfectly.
it also depends how early you take your naturals gases. you can stockpile gas for a while before the factories get thrown down.
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i take my expo's as double gas as soon as my expo's CC is turning into an OC, then I just turtle with tanks while I'm teching up to starport/ghost/bfhs, and once that's done, I start spamming factories and CCs
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Quick piece of advice when using this build.
When you win the battle always target the P's expos first dont go for his main. TT had a 60 food advantage today and threw the game away cuz I got to greedy and went for his main.
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yep - my thoughts exactly. You can't get too cocky bad positions (read flanks, etc.) will roflstomp you regardless.
I've been finding that I need at least 4 hot-keys to be able to execute this. Being able to use EMP and siege tanks within a fraction of a second is really critical.
1 - whole army 2 - tanks 3 - ghosts 4 - harass group (medivac with 4 hellions) for when i'm fighting a battle
but man, I gotta say, having 5 OCs late game is really sweet. (I seal off chokes with PFs which allow me to turn my nats into OCs on certain maps) I think i spiked 4k income two games ago.
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Thanks for this post; really love mech and would love to improve
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i don't like the idea of crawling PFs across the map. P can't ever attack a maxed army of hellion/tank without carriers or catching you unsieged. leapfrogging turrets and PFs just make your push that much slower, which gives toss more time to get carriers out. i mean yes, toss could potentially try to base trade you, but who seriously tries to base trade terran?
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On March 10 2011 10:56 rauk wrote: i don't like the idea of crawling PFs across the map. P can't ever attack a maxed army of hellion/tank without carriers or catching you unsieged. leapfrogging turrets and PFs just make your push that much slower, which gives toss more time to get carriers out. i mean yes, toss could potentially try to base trade you, but who seriously tries to base trade terran?
As long as you keep a tab on their army composition carriers aren't too much of a threat. By the time carriers are viable he'll be maxed or near it, so if he gets a few you can just make a few vikings, and if he wants more than that he'll need to suicide units, which gives you a window where you can make lots of vikings or just waltz in and kill him. Terran has enough anti-air options that Protoss air transitions are only really viable against mech when they're unscouted.
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I really do not understand the elitistic way people treat replays. Or the actual necesity of replays in theorycraft threads. The argument that "The players are weak", "I will do better then those players" is a void argument. For everyone who posts here there will be at least thousand players who will be far superior then you, even when you play in the masters league.
Mech is viable, Jinro proved it. How you transition into it is another story. Be it hellion marauder play, banshee harass, or heavy macro play on GSL maps, Do not treat people as trash who put proper effort into idea's and threads. Take a random GSL or IEM player and they will make you look worse. It is the thought that counts
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I find that most protoss aren't even able to transition to air mainly because the 3/3 viable upgrades (read thors), make toss air upgrades vital. Given the late stage and heavy requirements of the fleet beacon (For lvl 2 air ups), it is very very hard for protoss to keep up with air ups. (3/3 thors completely destroys 1/1 air, carriers and void rays, and can even hold its own easily against 2/2 air)
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49039 Posts
How do you see use of Ravens in the composition?I always felt that fewer PF could be made in exchange for ravens,with of course energy upgrade so that we can get pdds faster.
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On March 11 2011 02:29 BLinD-RawR wrote: How do you see use of Ravens in the composition?I always felt that fewer PF could be made in exchange for ravens,with of course energy upgrade so that we can get pdds faster. There really isn't any need for PDDs with this strat. Sure they are good against stalkers, but tanks + PFs are more than enough. And you certainly don't need PDD against toss air.
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Although I don't really agree with putting PFs everywhere etc, I'll still bump this thread because I think it is important
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/149073-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch
Of course I'm bad and everything, but that is my execution of mech. I should have lost that one because I did a lot of mistakes, but it was still a fun game. ~3,4-3,5k Masters EU, there are many many flaws Note: Don't lose all your 4 ghosts before you enter the critical fight. No really, it's bad.
edit: And I just found another one of my replays, it's an older one on lost temple and it shows quite well how good this map is for mech, although I should have prepared a bit better for blink stalkers I guess. Not sure if I was safe there. I was pretty satisfied back then with this game (well, except that I forgot siege mode LOL) and I played a lot more back then, I think I was better there than I am now Opponent in this game is close to 4k Masters EU now, although I think he got better by now. This replay is 1 month old.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/149076-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
I hope you enjoy these replays.
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United States15275 Posts
This is a very interesting approach in TvP mech. I hope some pros can comment on its viability.
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Colossi rip PF's to shreds when you get more than 6. But if they're in the front, I do see the value in slowing down the death ball to let you set up a brutal concave/position
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A more fun method than mech/PF is to go marine/PF into mass ravens. He attacks with a 200/200 army? Fill half the map with auto turrets, and then fill half his base.
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On March 09 2011 00:24 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 16:24 BatCat wrote: How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions? I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T The second you see collsi production you need to get vikings asap. In the mid game you cant really get ghosts yet so you have to use your hellions to focus fire down the immortals shields, this usually isnt to bad because the immortals tend to ball up so if you position your hellions right they can eat through the shields pretty quick. Hellion/Tank/Viking Is great versus collsi/immortal as long as your sieged up in a nice spread out position. Viking/Tank has great synergy as well if I can scout him before he engages I can usually use my vikings range to sneak some shots on the colllsi and if he gets too aggresive with his stalks he will lose a few as they get to close to my tank line. The Range of these units is a huge buffer for this build. At what stage is he attacking you? Is he trying to deny your third? Hellion counter attacks are another factor in stopping protoss aggression. Hellion harass can force him to warp units back home rather than reinforce his attack. Ive even had some games where protoss will win the main fight, but will lose too many probes then with mass repair and new units popping out and siegeing on the cliffs I can barely hold out on the attack and then his economy is in shambles. He's attacking pretty early in the game, like when I got my standardly timed expansion up. (~9,10 minutes) and teching to vikings would be another tech that would cut into my army :-/
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On March 14 2011 23:41 BatCat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 00:24 XXXSmOke wrote:On March 08 2011 16:24 BatCat wrote: How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions? I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T The second you see collsi production you need to get vikings asap. In the mid game you cant really get ghosts yet so you have to use your hellions to focus fire down the immortals shields, this usually isnt to bad because the immortals tend to ball up so if you position your hellions right they can eat through the shields pretty quick. Hellion/Tank/Viking Is great versus collsi/immortal as long as your sieged up in a nice spread out position. Viking/Tank has great synergy as well if I can scout him before he engages I can usually use my vikings range to sneak some shots on the colllsi and if he gets too aggresive with his stalks he will lose a few as they get to close to my tank line. The Range of these units is a huge buffer for this build. At what stage is he attacking you? Is he trying to deny your third? Hellion counter attacks are another factor in stopping protoss aggression. Hellion harass can force him to warp units back home rather than reinforce his attack. Ive even had some games where protoss will win the main fight, but will lose too many probes then with mass repair and new units popping out and siegeing on the cliffs I can barely hold out on the attack and then his economy is in shambles. He's attacking pretty early in the game, like when I got my standardly timed expansion up. (~9,10 minutes) and teching to vikings would be another tech that would cut into my army :-/
If hes attacking that early then is he not FEing? thats a very fast timing attack. In that case what I have found to really help(if your anticipating early timing attack) Is to seal your natural off with a bunker line. This is a huge bonus to your defense as the toss has to breka through the bunkers while your tanks get a ton of free shots off. Then once your ready for your third you simply slavage the wall and get your cashj back.
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I've found that a key thing in TvP Mech Positioning is the area your force covers. Spread your tanks to cover as much as area as possible. Then you leave a small force of hellions/1 thor near the front to tank damage and slow down the Protoss frontal assault.
The longer it takes your army to die, the more shots your siege tanks get off.
Question: How much spread on tanks? Bunker upgrades?
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On March 10 2011 21:18 Fluxx wrote: I really do not understand the elitistic way people treat replays. Or the actual necesity of replays in theorycraft threads. The argument that "The players are weak", "I will do better then those players" is a void argument. For everyone who posts here there will be at least thousand players who will be far superior then you, even when you play in the masters league.
Mech is viable, Jinro proved it. How you transition into it is another story. Be it hellion marauder play, banshee harass, or heavy macro play on GSL maps, Do not treat people as trash who put proper effort into idea's and threads. Take a random GSL or IEM player and they will make you look worse. It is the thought that counts
Dude, you dont prove anything by winning a game or 2 with mech, and btw why do you think Jinro went back to playing bio which he even cant win with.
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On March 15 2011 02:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 21:18 Fluxx wrote: I really do not understand the elitistic way people treat replays. Or the actual necesity of replays in theorycraft threads. The argument that "The players are weak", "I will do better then those players" is a void argument. For everyone who posts here there will be at least thousand players who will be far superior then you, even when you play in the masters league.
Mech is viable, Jinro proved it. How you transition into it is another story. Be it hellion marauder play, banshee harass, or heavy macro play on GSL maps, Do not treat people as trash who put proper effort into idea's and threads. Take a random GSL or IEM player and they will make you look worse. It is the thought that counts Dude, you dont prove anything by winning a game or 2 with mech, and btw why do you think Jinro went back to playing bio which he even cant win with.
If he can't win by "back to playing bio" its not like that makes bio any more viable
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On March 14 2011 06:58 Honeybadger wrote: Colossi rip PF's to shreds when you get more than 6. But if they're in the front, I do see the value in slowing down the death ball to let you set up a brutal concave/position I'm pretty sure that any siege unit can rip a stationary defense to shreds. However, what about when the PF is supported by siege tanks? 1500 health seems like a lot to go through while getting exposed to siege tank fire, and doubly so when there are Vikings overhead. Aren't the PFs supposed to serve a pseudo-Vulture role? They tank damage and counter the Zealots, in this case by forcing the Zealots into small gaps, nullifying the ability to auto-spread with charge. Also, don't PFs not do friendly fire splash? So they can take down Zealots that are close to tanks without killing the tanks.
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This looks very promising as an idea, particularly using PF's extensively to make up for mech's immobility. PF's not only do not cost supply, they PROVIDE supply. A slow creep across the map with PF's, tanks, and turrets allowing you to take bases and gradually encroach on the enemy base sounds great. Very terran.
My concerns are about the 2 base timing, where you might have difficulties getting this gravy train rolling. Furthermore, tanks just don't feel that strong compared to BW tanks. Marauders offer so much by comparison... But I want to believe. I want this to work. They take out spider mines and goliaths, but I want mech to still work. Honestly.
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After the amulet nerf, bio is gonna be stronger then ever.. so yea mech..
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PvT is giving me nightmares... but I have a build I am working out the kinks with. Basically, I need whatever feedback I can get without getting too specific regarding replays or in game details. Just tell me what you think.
Pure Mech:
Simply put, I don't believe in a tank helion primary composition build. It's simply not tanks/vulture brood war. Basically, immortals will run through it and speed lots will clean up the rest. He can pick up tanks with phoenix with his plenty of gas left over. He can go voids. Too many hard counters. Helions with spider mines and it might be a different story.
Solution: So how would a terran deal with the above? Vikings for void, maybe a couple of ghosts to slow down the immortal play. Sounds good... the problem? GAS!!! 250 for two tank factories, 150 a pop for a ghost, 200 for a reactored starport. Can't do that off two base. And if you don''t have all three, you are ****ed once the protoss makes the adjustment.
Or am I wrong about this? Can a terran just sit on his two base (3 if defensible), pump the appropriate amount of ghost/viking and just push at 175-200 supply and pummel the protoss? Can a terran get by harassing with helion drops (that means medivac gas too) to buy time for his massive push? This might work at a diamond/low master level, but not top play, but I am not a pro gamer so tell me if you think that works for my level. After all...
- You get the scouting information you need with a Viking fly by. You can judge whether he is air or ground heavy. - If he has heavy phoenix, you can add a Thor and hope you have enough tanks to withstand graviton beams. -2-3 Ghost production, while researching the energy boost upgrade. wait till you have energy for 4-5 EMP's, again you want that timing to hit when your last ghost is around 145 energy.
That SHOULD be viable in most cases, but expect your mineral count to be ridiculously high. Basically, you need to send your scvs into battle since you will be tapped at your main and your third won't be up in most cases. You will also be way over saturated with helion and that money will go to waste. Maybe the turrent play isn't a bad idea but we'd be moving at a turtle/snails pace here. I don't see why this build couldn't work on a delta quadrant when you are sitting on 3 base the whole time.
The Alternative (the bio/mech mix):
First of all, both builds (the previous one I laid out and the one which I will lay out here open with a reactored barrack to cover for any void/phoenix cheese or early rush schemes (immortal bust, 4 gate, etc), so we are not abandoning bio. It's the basic 1-1-1 rine, tank, one medivac (more for the vision than healing) push to begin with, a decent timing push. Now for the build:
So after the timing push, my expansion should be underway. I have a reactored barrack and a factory. I can add a lab on the port to add a raven to defend with a PDD and have mobile detection.
Now for the rest. So I basically take my natural then build the following.
1. 2 additional rax (3 rax total). One tech lab, nothing on the third. As far as your first reactored barrack, you can keep it if he is air heavy or immortal heavy, or you can swap it for a lab.
2. 2 additional factory (3 factory total). One reactored for helion, the other teched for tanks.
3. An additional port (two ports total), nothing on it yet.
4. Bay and armory (got to to get some upgrades going)
Now I have every option in the book at my disposal. For example,
-If he is two stargate phoenix heavy, I simply transition to Thor. I pump out rines out of 3 rax (one teched, two reactored) and I can build a reactor on my second port and mix in Vikings, Ghosts can be viable if you decide to stay one factory Thor as opposed to two factory Thor.
-If he is robo heavy with collosus/immortal, I go two rax marauder, one reactored rax with tank and helion support. I add a reactor to my second port and I am free to pump medivac/Viking. Ghosts will not be viable because of the gas intensity unless you have 6-8 geyser gas.
-If he is ground heavy, immortal, speed lots, high temps, Go two rax tech, one rax reactored. Add tech lab to your second port and go cloaked banshees. Keep your three factory play to tanks/helions or possibly Thor/tank/helion. Ghosts will probably not be viable on two base.
-Mass stalker, easy, two rax marauder one rax marine and raven support. Medivacs are affordable as long as he isn't mixing collosus.
So that's terrans mid game against toss in a nutshell from a decent diamond player. Can't see what would be more flexible than that. Drawbacks of course...
1) Your bio/mech upgrade ratio will be garbage. You will be at 1-1 while he is at 2-2.
2) CONSTANT SCOUTING INFORMATION. Once the protoss gets to three base 6 gas, anything is in the books. Not only that, you need to abandon whatever build you commit to once the protoss adjusts, meaning swapping buildings on reactors and labs. Not easy to do in the middle of the battle. But once the mothership is out, you need to throw this game plan out the window. Keeping your PvT a mid game, 20 minute session needs to be a priority.
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How do you guys use your hotkeys? I've come to the conclusion that you absolutely need 4 hotkeys to do mech properly
1 - entire army 2 - siege tanks 3 - ghost 4 - dropship harass (while attacking)
there's no other way for me to be able to fumble around trying to control click my tanks and ghosts - its TOO critical to be able to land EMPs, even a 1 second delay could mean life or deathh
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1-Thors/ghosts/vikings 2-Siege Tanks 3-Hellions 4-Harass
4 keys are needed to do this right.
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On March 15 2011 08:43 Blamajama wrote: PvT is giving me nightmares... but I have a build I am working out the kinks with. Basically, I need whatever feedback I can get without getting too specific regarding replays or in game details. Just tell me what you think.
Pure Mech:
Simply put, I don't believe in a tank helion primary composition build. It's simply not tanks/vulture brood war. Basically, immortals will run through it and speed lots will clean up the rest. He can pick up tanks with phoenix with his plenty of gas left over. He can go voids. Too many hard counters. Helions with spider mines and it might be a different story.
Solution: So how would a terran deal with the above? Vikings for void, maybe a couple of ghosts to slow down the immortal play. Sounds good... the problem? GAS!!! 250 for two tank factories, 150 a pop for a ghost, 200 for a reactored starport. Can't do that off two base. And if you don''t have all three, you are ****ed once the protoss makes the adjustment.
Or am I wrong about this? Can a terran just sit on his two base (3 if defensible), pump the appropriate amount of ghost/viking and just push at 175-200 supply and pummel the protoss? Can a terran get by harassing with helion drops (that means medivac gas too) to buy time for his massive push? This might work at a diamond/low master level, but not top play, but I am not a pro gamer so tell me if you think that works for my level. After all...
- You get the scouting information you need with a Viking fly by. You can judge whether he is air or ground heavy. - If he has heavy phoenix, you can add a Thor and hope you have enough tanks to withstand graviton beams. -2-3 Ghost production, while researching the energy boost upgrade. wait till you have energy for 4-5 EMP's, again you want that timing to hit when your last ghost is around 145 energy.
That SHOULD be viable in most cases, but expect your mineral count to be ridiculously high. Basically, you need to send your scvs into battle since you will be tapped at your main and your third won't be up in most cases. You will also be way over saturated with helion and that money will go to waste. Maybe the turrent play isn't a bad idea but we'd be moving at a turtle/snails pace here. I don't see why this build couldn't work on a delta quadrant when you are sitting on 3 base the whole time.
The Alternative (the bio/mech mix):
First of all, both builds (the previous one I laid out and the one which I will lay out here open with a reactored barrack to cover for any void/phoenix cheese or early rush schemes (immortal bust, 4 gate, etc), so we are not abandoning bio. It's the basic 1-1-1 rine, tank, one medivac (more for the vision than healing) push to begin with, a decent timing push. Now for the build:
So after the timing push, my expansion should be underway. I have a reactored barrack and a factory. I can add a lab on the port to add a raven to defend with a PDD and have mobile detection.
Now for the rest. So I basically take my natural then build the following.
1. 2 additional rax (3 rax total). One tech lab, nothing on the third. As far as your first reactored barrack, you can keep it if he is air heavy or immortal heavy, or you can swap it for a lab.
2. 2 additional factory (3 factory total). One reactored for helion, the other teched for tanks.
3. An additional port (two ports total), nothing on it yet.
4. Bay and armory (got to to get some upgrades going)
Now I have every option in the book at my disposal. For example,
-If he is two stargate phoenix heavy, I simply transition to Thor. I pump out rines out of 3 rax (one teched, two reactored) and I can build a reactor on my second port and mix in Vikings, Ghosts can be viable if you decide to stay one factory Thor as opposed to two factory Thor.
-If he is robo heavy with collosus/immortal, I go two rax marauder, one reactored rax with tank and helion support. I add a reactor to my second port and I am free to pump medivac/Viking. Ghosts will not be viable because of the gas intensity unless you have 6-8 geyser gas.
-If he is ground heavy, immortal, speed lots, high temps, Go two rax tech, one rax reactored. Add tech lab to your second port and go cloaked banshees. Keep your three factory play to tanks/helions or possibly Thor/tank/helion. Ghosts will probably not be viable on two base.
-Mass stalker, easy, two rax marauder one rax marine and raven support. Medivacs are affordable as long as he isn't mixing collosus.
So that's terrans mid game against toss in a nutshell from a decent diamond player. Can't see what would be more flexible than that. Drawbacks of course...
1) Your bio/mech upgrade ratio will be garbage. You will be at 1-1 while he is at 2-2.
2) CONSTANT SCOUTING INFORMATION. Once the protoss gets to three base 6 gas, anything is in the books. Not only that, you need to abandon whatever build you commit to once the protoss adjusts, meaning swapping buildings on reactors and labs. Not easy to do in the middle of the battle. But once the mothership is out, you need to throw this game plan out the window. Keeping your PvT a mid game, 20 minute session needs to be a priority.
This is good in theory and i tried it couple of times now. What is the problem with this in my experience is that "you just don't have enaugh shit" out in midgame to defend, so even if you do ok at defending your nat, he gets one base ahead of me, just because his army > my army and i can't move out. If you have some good replays,i would love to see them but as it is for now, i feel that bio start with really early transition into mech is the best way for me. (1 rax expand with tech lab for early maras, then straight into mech) The problem is passivity ofc., cause bassicly i have nothing except 1-2 banshees to herras in middgame.
good day, svizcy
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On March 15 2011 08:43 Blamajama wrote: [...] This might work at a diamond/low master level, but not top play, but I am not a pro gamer so tell me if you think that works for my level. After all...[...]
I guess you don't know the german terran player goody :x On sunday he was in his 3rd go4sc2 final in a row with pure mech play. Everyone knows that he will go mech, but nobody can really beat him.
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On March 15 2011 19:32 Brocklyn wrote:I guess you don't know the german terran player goody :x On sunday he was in his 3rd go4sc2 final in a row with pure mech play. Everyone knows that he will go mech, but nobody can really beat him.
Is this guy a turrent builder or what? What does he do for anti-air?
Edit: I am officially abandoning pure bio until further notice, a buff/nerf or whatever. The bio/mech mix, as a user quoted above, always leaves you short in a key area that the protoss will exploit. I am transitioning to 4 factory (2 reactored 2 teched) build with 1 rax marauder and 2 port (reactored and teched) for Viking/raven with a focus on armory upgrades only. I find that this build requires little adjustment for the mid game and can deal with many units in the protoss arsenal.
1. Speed lots - saturated blue flame helions from two reactors 2. Stalkers- Raven/PDD 3. Collosus- Tank/Viking 4. Immortal- Combination of helion, handful of rines and marauder with concuss, and tank barrage should slow them down to keep their numbers manageable. 5. Phoenix-Seamless transition to 3-4 Thor before pushing out. Research strike cannons to deal with robotic units. 6. High temps- Bad against heavy mech, roasted by helions. Mix in ghosts in place of marauders once you acquire 3rd and 4th base. 7. Carrier/Mothership- Add extra reactored port (you'll have plenty of time to have this up in time)
As long as your 1-1-1 opening is executed, transitioning to this build should be no problem. Remember, you are trying to deter any heavy immortal/void/phoenix play by reactoring your first barrack, pressuring him to tech up to collosus/high temp. Keep pumping marines from this barrack until your second factory for reactored helions is done, and then swap and add a tech lab on rax for marauder. This will balance your anti-air to more ground to ground just in case you built too many Vikings.
Also, If you are mineral heavy, make sure that third factory gets a reactor. If you have too much gas, get tanks from your third factory and hold off on the barrack/4th factory add on swap.
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1-Thors/ghosts/vikings 2-Siege Tanks 3-Hellions 4-Harass
4 keys are needed to do this right.
I like this, although I've been putting harass at 9 or 0 (keys that are always empty) but 9 and 0 are probably too far away to effectively be 100% active with harassing, so I guess your method works better.
I like 1-tab for Ghosts, and their function along with viking and thor are similar enough (anti-air)
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If you have one spellcaster per unit group, the spell casters will always be highlighted first IIRC. So that set up works. Watching some old VODs of flash - he uses about 3 hotkeys just for the tanks alone O_O. He can leap frog tanks so quickly that its almost as if they're not even immobile.
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I've been going 2 rax pressure expand into 3 rax, single factory tanks. I add an armory and make a thor after ~3 tanks.
Feels good, man.
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Sounds alot diff than avilo. Will try when i get home
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Wow PTR 1.3.3 is going to be crazy good for mech if it goes through as it means siege expand will be:
1. quite safe against 4gate and 3gate expand 2. better Terran mid and late game as ghosts will cost 66% less gas
PS. Mass Hellions are cost effective against Mass Stalkers, even when microed.
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Although I am a Protoss player, I must say this style of play really made me drool a little bit. Although admittedly, I haven't finished watching all the replays so I have yet to see everything... But the two games I saw I was giggling.
To be fair, I feel that in both the games I saw the Protoss players were trying to attack the wall head on... Whenever they did they sustained HUGE losses. hi im new is correct in that you need to work your way around the "defensive grid". I could see blink stalkers being very effective early on... The problem is you have to act fast before the "noose" gets wrapped.
I'm personally thinking of the first game vs. Far. At one point there was a warp prism warping in units to the unprotected side of the "siege line". That single warp prism caused such a huge hole and gap that unfortunately wasn't really exploited. With only a couple of Archons he did quite a bit of damage. So obviously it is important to make sure that all the "side doors are locked".
Though people will say that PFs are very expensive to make... Watching these games made that statement feel exactly the opposite. What's so crazy about mass planetary is that it allows you to continually push forward the siege line while giving room to fall back. In a typical army vs. army scenario, the winning army will gain a lot of ground in terms of moving towards the opponents base... With mass planetary, you can A) fall back to a more favorable position and let the planetaries just dish out as much damage as they can, or B) while you are remaking your army they will have to battle through a ton of planetaries just to get to your production facilities.
I really like it... I may be a Protoss player but when I start working on those Terran achievements, I'm going to have this page bookmarked to have ready in my back pocket. This doesn't feel like mech... This is like, the crackheaded turtle lol.
I'm going to put my insane thought into a spoiler, love it or hate it all you want... But it is just a thought coming from a very imaginative player who loves going for crazy strats (low diamond btw, and I do realize that this should not be attempted to be incorporated into every game).
+ Show Spoiler + Just a thought (coming from low level diamond): I noticed you had a LOT of minerals accumulating (as once you're on 3-4 bases with a max army, planetaries become ridiculously cheap). Now I know this may sound absurd, but how about building a few (or even a lot of) backup Orbital Commands to use literally for the energy. There are a couple of applications that I could see being very useful in this type of build the main one being a mass mule calldown.
Once you have the money and the territory carved out, having a bunch of Orbitals is actually pretty ridiculous. I've only ever done it for fun in vs ai games, but I could actually see it working in this type of build as you are turtling so hard that you dont ever really lose any units (and thus don't need to rebuild them). With a bunch of Orbitals you could sac some scvs to free up more supply if you so choose, as you'll have lots of mules... You can call down tons of mules on site to repair pfs more effectively, making them even more efficient as not only will the opposing army be trying to kill off the pf, but now their units will try and aggro the mules as well. Third and finally, which I could see only being used in extreme circumstances... Mass mule calldown on an opponent's expo.
Now this truly crazy thought that I envision would take a ton of Orbitals and would not be feasible in most circumstances (I would probably go with a spare 2 maybe 3 orbitals)... However, if you build up enough energy on 7 Orbital Commands (including your base orbitals)...You can call down 27 mules (50 energy spent on scan) on the opponent's expo at any time you want. Assuming they don't stop the mules in time, you've just robbed that expo of 810 minerals (assuming that no mules make it back for a return trip). Since this build revolves around winning in the late game, you're trying to win a war of attrition. Imagine on Shattered Temple, you've divided the map in half, the Protoss has put an end to most of the Hellion harass and now you're in attrition mode. He has a somewhat saturated second or third expo that is running out of minerals but it still providing a healthy stream of income.
Imagine cutting down those minerals hugely... And not even costing you a dime. Whats so stupid is that since there are no warning bells that go off as nothing is being attacked, unless they are literally watching that expo when you decide to do it, their reaction time is not likely going to be the greatest... And once they see the big blob moving on the minimap, it's already too late as those minerals have been mined and are gone from his expansion.
Like I said, an insane strategy... But consider that you already have 4 Orbitals up, a ton of resources sitting in the bank, you can afford to spend 550/1100/1650 on a few extra Orbitals. Both games I've watched so far you won with 5k in the bank. I don't know how all your games look, but it looks to me like you wouldn't mind spending a little extra money. Something to consider... I doubt this wacky dream of mine will ever come to fruition where you rob an opponent of an expansion via mass mule, but this is the first strategy I've seen that would actually have a feasible chance of incorporating it.
Ahem... Anyways, I really like this build and kudos man. It's really funny how you see the CCs being built at home and leapfrogging ahead of the tanks to become pfs... at which point the tanks move up safely and more CCs are being built... The game vs. cLSMancito was just hilarious how the wall of PFs just keep creeping closer and closer to hit base... And if he at any point tried to attack the brick wall he'd lose way more than he was killing.
The leapfrogging of PFs really shore up a weakness of Siege Tanks which is that they are very very vulnerable when they unsiege and move up, and leave a bunch of empty space behind them that can be abused. With this type of play, you shore up both problems with a very cost effective choice. Nevermind that it doesn't cost supply, and in the event of losing a bunch of workers you can replenish that count REALLY quickly.
I've rambled on too long. Thumbs up. I like it.
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On April 26 2011 12:08 Griffith` wrote: Wow PTR 1.3.3 is going to be crazy good for mech if it goes through as it means siege expand will be:
1. quite safe against 4gate and 3gate expand 2. better Terran mid and late game as ghosts will cost 66% less gas
PS. Mass Hellions are cost effective against Mass Stalkers, even when microed.
siege expand has always been safe against 4gate, the threat of skipping starport is voidray openings. plus killing toss army has never been the problem with mech, the real problem is blink/colossi into your main whenever protoss feels like it, which the ghost buff doesn't address. i don't think the new patch is going to be significantly better for mech than the current one, though there might be some interesting ghost timings now.
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On April 26 2011 14:16 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:08 Griffith` wrote: Wow PTR 1.3.3 is going to be crazy good for mech if it goes through as it means siege expand will be:
1. quite safe against 4gate and 3gate expand 2. better Terran mid and late game as ghosts will cost 66% less gas
PS. Mass Hellions are cost effective against Mass Stalkers, even when microed. siege expand has always been safe against 4gate, the threat of skipping starport is voidray openings. plus killing toss army has never been the problem with mech, the real problem is blink/colossi into your main whenever protoss feels like it, which the ghost buff doesn't address. i don't think the new patch is going to be significantly better for mech than the current one, though there might be some interesting ghost timings now.
I've never had an issue with blink stalkers, I don't know why people keep fretting over it. Sensor towers + 2 siege tanks camped on ledges make it very hard for stalkers to be cost effective.
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Cheaper Ghost/ All the 4 gate non-sense gone is huge buffs for mech play.
I think im going to do FE---> Mech----> 3rd base/Dual Armory with a nice 2-1 timing attack that has EMP now that ghosts are cheaper.
Or, I might do reactor rax into fast Thor with strike cannon to stop 1 gate FE then into full mech.
Im so happy to switch back to this style, absolutely love this comapred to bio.
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I agree, the way terran is going right now, with much much more ghost play to counteract infestors and toss deathballs, EMP +Thor only gets stronger. The FE ->Mech -> 3rd base upgrade timing attack that is floating around will definitely be stronger in 1.3.3.
but srsly guys, WHY is there only ~30k views on this wonderful guide, and the trashy outright arrogant greedy Spanishiwa build has like 230k????????? CMON terrans, read this
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On April 26 2011 14:30 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 14:16 rauk wrote:On April 26 2011 12:08 Griffith` wrote: Wow PTR 1.3.3 is going to be crazy good for mech if it goes through as it means siege expand will be:
1. quite safe against 4gate and 3gate expand 2. better Terran mid and late game as ghosts will cost 66% less gas
PS. Mass Hellions are cost effective against Mass Stalkers, even when microed. siege expand has always been safe against 4gate, the threat of skipping starport is voidray openings. plus killing toss army has never been the problem with mech, the real problem is blink/colossi into your main whenever protoss feels like it, which the ghost buff doesn't address. i don't think the new patch is going to be significantly better for mech than the current one, though there might be some interesting ghost timings now. I've never had an issue with blink stalkers, I don't know why people keep fretting over it. Sensor towers + 2 siege tanks camped on ledges make it very hard for stalkers to be cost effective. ? sometimes the toss blinks like 10+ stalkers up the cliff.
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Great guide! I've been doing a lot of experimenting with mech in TvZ and TvP. In the last TvZ I played, a zerg doom dropped my main in the midgame. I was able to fend it off and rebuild my productions quickly. Right after then I realized the potentials of PF. Good to see you further fleshed out how to effectively use PFs with mech.
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On April 26 2011 22:25 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 14:30 Griffith` wrote:On April 26 2011 14:16 rauk wrote:On April 26 2011 12:08 Griffith` wrote: Wow PTR 1.3.3 is going to be crazy good for mech if it goes through as it means siege expand will be:
1. quite safe against 4gate and 3gate expand 2. better Terran mid and late game as ghosts will cost 66% less gas
PS. Mass Hellions are cost effective against Mass Stalkers, even when microed. siege expand has always been safe against 4gate, the threat of skipping starport is voidray openings. plus killing toss army has never been the problem with mech, the real problem is blink/colossi into your main whenever protoss feels like it, which the ghost buff doesn't address. i don't think the new patch is going to be significantly better for mech than the current one, though there might be some interesting ghost timings now. I've never had an issue with blink stalkers, I don't know why people keep fretting over it. Sensor towers + 2 siege tanks camped on ledges make it very hard for stalkers to be cost effective. ? sometimes the toss blinks like 10+ stalkers up the cliff.
10+ Stalkers isn't a whole lot tbh. I can usually trap the stalker ball every time if they blink into my base by doing flanks. As mentioned previously, mass hellions are cost effective against mass stalkers, and EVEN more so if they've already casted their blink. (What you do is you move the hellions adjacent to the stalkers, so each hellion shot can hit 2+ stalkers, NEVER a-move hellions into stalkers).
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You need to do more testing. If the P keeps his stalker ball clumped he will lose against the hellions being close and splashing everything. If he does even the most rudimentary blinking to reconcave his ball, he will trivially beat the hellions.
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On April 27 2011 00:58 naventus wrote: You need to do more testing. If the P keeps his stalker ball clumped he will lose against the hellions being close and splashing everything. If he does even the most rudimentary blinking to reconcave his ball, he will trivially beat the hellions.
No he won't, I did over 1 hour of testing on the UMS map test with my friend. (both of us are at masters level)
1. You can't blink together as a ball, (ie. 1 control group blinking), hellions surround stalkers far too fast. 2. Splitting stalkers with blink is probably just as APM intensive as marine splitting. 3. In the above scenario, if he were to blink up a cliff, the blink will still be on cooldown.
Furthermore, in our test, the costs assumed that gas and minerals were even in value. So we were being really generous in our testing.
ie. 125/50 stalker = 175 "cost". hellion: 100/0 = 100 "cost".
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Im intrigued by this style of play. My issue vP with using mech was always the lack of mobility... PF spamming and turrets would definitely work well.
Im not sure if if is as strong as bio, but it's a different viable strategy for sure. Great writeup
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One thing I have had issues with when trying to play mech is actually forcing an engagement. I find that on fairly big maps with alot of open space in the centre (TalDarim, Shattered Temple, ICCUP Testbug etc) as I start pushing towards their main, or their freshest expos, or pushing anywhere TBH, the toss can just take his 200/200 army and counter, walk straight into my main and wreck my infrastructure. I understand you are placing sensor towers/PFs in key locations, but there's nothing stopping him from just walking straight past it. Then if I try and go back to defend, not only do I sometimes have a poor angle to engage, but my production is gone/damaged so I cannot rebuild my losses. This kinda forced me to give up on mech since not only was I vulnerable in the early game, but I was getting my ass kicked in the late game too.
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On April 27 2011 01:46 BigBossX wrote: One thing I have had issues with when trying to play mech is actually forcing an engagement. I find that on fairly big maps with alot of open space in the centre (TalDarim, Shattered Temple, ICCUP Testbug etc) as I start pushing towards their main, or their freshest expos, or pushing anywhere TBH, the toss can just take his 200/200 army and counter, walk straight into my main and wreck my infrastructure. I understand you are placing sensor towers/PFs in key locations, but there's nothing stopping him from just walking straight past it. Then if I try and go back to defend, not only do I sometimes have a poor angle to engage, but my production is gone/damaged so I cannot rebuild my losses. This kinda forced me to give up on mech since not only was I vulnerable in the early game, but I was getting my ass kicked in the late game too. This is the hard part of the build, you pretty much have to be doing hellion harass the entire game. By doing this you start to get a good idea of where the toss army is and if hes trying to counter you. By good scouting/PF's you can react to the toss better and be in a good position to defend.
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On April 27 2011 02:44 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 01:46 BigBossX wrote: One thing I have had issues with when trying to play mech is actually forcing an engagement. I find that on fairly big maps with alot of open space in the centre (TalDarim, Shattered Temple, ICCUP Testbug etc) as I start pushing towards their main, or their freshest expos, or pushing anywhere TBH, the toss can just take his 200/200 army and counter, walk straight into my main and wreck my infrastructure. I understand you are placing sensor towers/PFs in key locations, but there's nothing stopping him from just walking straight past it. Then if I try and go back to defend, not only do I sometimes have a poor angle to engage, but my production is gone/damaged so I cannot rebuild my losses. This kinda forced me to give up on mech since not only was I vulnerable in the early game, but I was getting my ass kicked in the late game too. This is the hard part of the build, you pretty much have to be doing hellion harass the entire game. By doing this you start to get a good idea of where the toss army is and if hes trying to counter you. By good scouting/PF's you can react to the toss better and be in a good position to defend.
I understand that, my hellion harass usually works quite well up until he takes a third/late game and can afford to plant cannons all over his expos. How are you supposed to harass then? I've messed with the idea of dropping a few tanks and using siege to hit the probe line, but this always seemed cost inefficient as it only takes a round of warp ins to clean it up and it's not like tanks are dirt cheap.
Also it makes sense that you would adjust position if you see the toss countering , but what I didn't make quite clear was that whenever I actually commit to an attack to deal some damage, this is when he can counter freely, so I don't understand the process here, am I supposed to dance around the middle of the map until i can get a good enough position to force an engagement? Or just commit to a base race? (which I find quite difficult vs late game P)
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When you mech like FlaSh, the key thing is to keep on harassing while you build up your 150ish 2/2 food push. But you HAVE to push, and it needs to be done the instant you finish either 2/1 or 2/2.
Think of upgrading siege tanks as upgrade damage on psionic storms. Usually, if the protoss insists on a base race, Terran should always win, as simply lifting off and flying away puts you at a great advantage. Most maps will have no more than 3 attack paths into your main. Do what Flash does, spam structures/PFs/etc to make it very difficult to break without severely cost-ineffective trades.
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Yeah, something I liked from the replays as well were the in-base planetaries on the ledges. This makes it a LOT harder to blink up into the main as you A) have to deal with planetaries and B) are much more restricted in space which is actually key.
It really is taking sim city to the extreme, but those planetary fortresses are just so cost efficient it's gross. Personally from the replays posted, I think you could have planted a few more sensor towers (as you definitely had the money to do it). I would probably try and drop a tower each time before I expanded just to be able to really know whereabouts his army is moving to... And frankly as a slow-moving toss player, I am very leery of moving into any Terran territory where there is a sensor tower... It usually allows the terran to pick the site of the engagement and it can be extremely risky to make a push.
I forget which game it was (I think it was against the bad mannered player) you had sensors covering up to your main and the front door, but you hadn't taken the third or fourth expo and it was completely dark. If he had gone for blink much more quickly, he could have gone up the cliff to the empty 4th expo, through the third and up into your expansions without you noticing until he was there. If you had one extra tower positioned at the edge of your territory, you could have spotted the movement occuring behind your siege line. Obviously he didn't exploit that and it certainly is easier to notice these things as an observer in a game, but having makeshift Xel'Naga towers for 125/100 is a great deal.
And again, just having "vision" there will psych the Protoss out. Once you started your missile turret grid in every game the Protoss players were beginning to play in the dark. Most of their mid to late game vision was only the positioning of your offensive PFs... And then on top of that knowing where they are moving to it really limits the options the Protoss would have. Essentially, it's about tightening the "noose" as quickly as possible, because once you split the map in half, you've won. Siege Tanks in large numbers and PFs are so cost efficient it's ridiculous... So even a maxed 200/200 Protoss army can't even really engage the siege line as that is exactly what the siege line is designed to do... Take on "superior" armies.
What really needs to be fleshed out is the time when you haven't split the map in half yet. The Protoss player still has avenues of attack when you have your second expo up and started. Once you get the third and fourth expo if he hasn't killed you, it's pretty much game over because eventually his only avenue of attack would be to attack the siege line directly... Which is exactly what you want.
EDIT: As a side note, this strategy seems very similar to the "Left 2 Die" Blizzard custom... PFs and siege tanks just covering as much as possible. If you play that map on brutal/left2die, any notions you might have about Planetary Fortresses being expensive will be thrown out the window. Obviously a case of apples and hamburgers, but if you haven't played Left 2 Die, I might try it out just to give an small idea for how this strategy would operate in "real world" applications. You also learn that if you leave a window open where units can get inside the siege line, it quickly falls apart which must be objective #1 when executing this strategy: lock all the doors and windows =P
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On April 27 2011 06:21 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 02:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On April 27 2011 01:46 BigBossX wrote: One thing I have had issues with when trying to play mech is actually forcing an engagement. I find that on fairly big maps with alot of open space in the centre (TalDarim, Shattered Temple, ICCUP Testbug etc) as I start pushing towards their main, or their freshest expos, or pushing anywhere TBH, the toss can just take his 200/200 army and counter, walk straight into my main and wreck my infrastructure. I understand you are placing sensor towers/PFs in key locations, but there's nothing stopping him from just walking straight past it. Then if I try and go back to defend, not only do I sometimes have a poor angle to engage, but my production is gone/damaged so I cannot rebuild my losses. This kinda forced me to give up on mech since not only was I vulnerable in the early game, but I was getting my ass kicked in the late game too. This is the hard part of the build, you pretty much have to be doing hellion harass the entire game. By doing this you start to get a good idea of where the toss army is and if hes trying to counter you. By good scouting/PF's you can react to the toss better and be in a good position to defend. I understand that, my hellion harass usually works quite well up until he takes a third/late game and can afford to plant cannons all over his expos. How are you supposed to harass then? I've messed with the idea of dropping a few tanks and using siege to hit the probe line, but this always seemed cost inefficient as it only takes a round of warp ins to clean it up and it's not like tanks are dirt cheap. Also it makes sense that you would adjust position if you see the toss countering , but what I didn't make quite clear was that whenever I actually commit to an attack to deal some damage, this is when he can counter freely, so I don't understand the process here, am I supposed to dance around the middle of the map until i can get a good enough position to force an engagement? Or just commit to a base race? (which I find quite difficult vs late game P)
Once Toss is on 3 base they have also usually sim citied pretty well too, this is where hellion harass turns more into consistent poking at the protoss army to see where hes at. My usual poke force is about 6 helliosn, which is plenty to punish him if he is out of position.
The idea behind the hellion poking is to stall your mech while you get the cirtical supply/upgrades/ and ghosts. Once I get around 2-2 upgrades plus a huge amount of tanks. I start to push out and attack him, setting up a position carefully based on hellion intel.
It sounds like your never attacking, which isnt good for mech. Mech is very decision based there are points where you can kill him, and you need to push out asap before he gets stronger, this is waht the hellion intel is for. Avoid base trading at all costs, Toss will win most of them.
But definately make sure you start pushing out based on your hellion info. Once my hellions find his army I began to push out as I know where his ball is so I can use that to make sure im sieiged and ready to fight in time while I slow push the map.
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On April 27 2011 01:46 BigBossX wrote: One thing I have had issues with when trying to play mech is actually forcing an engagement. I find that on fairly big maps with alot of open space in the centre (TalDarim, Shattered Temple, ICCUP Testbug etc) as I start pushing towards their main, or their freshest expos, or pushing anywhere TBH, the toss can just take his 200/200 army and counter, walk straight into my main and wreck my infrastructure. I understand you are placing sensor towers/PFs in key locations, but there's nothing stopping him from just walking straight past it. Then if I try and go back to defend, not only do I sometimes have a poor angle to engage, but my production is gone/damaged so I cannot rebuild my losses. This kinda forced me to give up on mech since not only was I vulnerable in the early game, but I was getting my ass kicked in the late game too.
Generally you shouldn't be going back and defending with mech - because of its immobility. By the time your thors and tanks get back there, it will be much too late and then you won't have the production to rebuild your army when you fight them head on, so it's not worth it. It is much better to push into your opponents bases when he runs by your main army.
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So if I'm understanding you correctly, Griffith, you stay on 1 rax/2 factory/ until you start your third base?
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On April 27 2011 01:07 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:58 naventus wrote: You need to do more testing. If the P keeps his stalker ball clumped he will lose against the hellions being close and splashing everything. If he does even the most rudimentary blinking to reconcave his ball, he will trivially beat the hellions. No he won't, I did over 1 hour of testing on the UMS map test with my friend. (both of us are at masters level) 1. You can't blink together as a ball, (ie. 1 control group blinking), hellions surround stalkers far too fast. 2. Splitting stalkers with blink is probably just as APM intensive as marine splitting. 3. In the above scenario, if he were to blink up a cliff, the blink will still be on cooldown. Furthermore, in our test, the costs assumed that gas and minerals were even in value. So we were being really generous in our testing. ie. 125/50 stalker = 175 "cost". hellion: 100/0 = 100 "cost".
Yes, he will. Because all good protoss micro their blinik stalker + collosus to just kite all hellions. Or they do the blink+collosus into your main, and then basetrade with proxied DT tech.
No matter what your tests say, you'll never ever ever surround a mass stalker ball in a real game with mass hellions, because the collosus are not too far behind, and even then the stalkers will win straight up with micro.
Mass stalker + collosus is the hardest thing for mech to deal with, because protoss can get their third base and fourth base up faster than you, and threaten the backstab into your main for the rest of the entire game, meaning that the game almost always ends up in a base race, as your army will be slowly pushing to their main, sometimes unkillable with enough tanks/hellion/viking, so protoss just says screw it and blink/walks into ur main with stalker collosus and does the base trade like i said above with DTs.
I have a fast +2+2 mech build and almost every game i've played with it has either had the outcome of a) me getting them to finally engage my army straight up (somehow) and me rolling them over b) them forcing me to unsiege/siege across the map until i'm near their base, at which point they have banked enough resources that they finally ignore your army and walk into ur main with all their stalkers/collosus while expoing everywhere on the map with dt tech. Since your army is almost at their base, there is no turning back because they will just blink/walk out ur base if you go to defend, so it's always a guaranteed base race, and you do not have the mobility to go kill their nomad bases, while they simply warp in dts everywhere and you will have no more orbitals.
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Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks.
Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal.
EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
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@GinDo: Did you watch a bunch of the replays he made in his OP? He has faced quite a variety of strategies using this build and you would be surprised to see how effective it is. In that last game he hadn't even gotten to the late game which is where this build starts to look unfair.
Although I do feel there is a huge window with this type of build before the planetary madness starts which gives the Protoss room to maneuver around the map and circumvent the terran defenses... But that timing varies from map to map depending on how defendable the third base is.
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Carriers/dt rape mech so hard, like on these big maps protoss can just clown arround with bling bling blink. And then when you push protoss just base races if he cant get you unsieged that is and you push really slow. Then he can either kills your mech army with DTS or stargate he can make as far away from the terran as possible and you cant do shit about it bc 50 blink stalkers and some collo just rape all your production. Also you cant flash style it bc if you send 3-4 tanks to outlying nexus's to snipe them protoss just warps in 4 zealots wich means you cannot do a ''clever'' push route wich allows you to attack his main and allow you to snipe some expos with tanks you split up. I played like a fuckton of games with naniwa before his match vs goody and I manged to win like 1 with mech and lost all others without a chance.
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On May 18 2011 05:01 GinDo wrote:Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks. Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal. EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
Agreed, don't know how he is high masters...
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Yeah these pure mech builds may work in BW but I think they are rather ineffective if the protoss scouts and adjusts. I am mid masters, nothing spectacular, but every time I stick with helion/Tank I get swept off the board with voids. Protoss should have carriers at the 20 minute mark on three base, not massing stalkers when there is no AA to worry about.
As a terran, you need air superiority before you commit to any mass mech play. That's why my gas goes to Vikings instead of Ghosts. You can only fund two teched factories for tanks and constitutive Viking production off two base gas anyway. Plus you get the +1 range if I am not mistaken. I go with a 1 1 1 build to get a star port before anything else. Also you need a couple of reactored barracks for marines to get your mineral count down one you take your natural. Here is a basic look at the early/mid/late game:
1: Early game vs Tier one + Immortals.: Raven is the first thing you get before any gas unit. Hit at 100 energy with one tank sieged at ramp, couple of helions and marines. Place PDD at the ramp. Sentry FF buys the toss an extra 5 seconds before he is forced to pull probes off the line. Any early expo from toss is also negated.
2. Early game vs Tier one + Voids. A Viking following your raven as opposed to a medivac if you spot a star gate. Use the Viking to scout. Don't burn scans.
3.Early game vs Tier one + Phoenix. Haven't seen a single phoenix in any of my recent toss games. No idea why. This could pose problems but can be adjusted for in the mid game. I wall off so toss usually commits to voids.
4. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Colossus.: Tank/Viking will eat colossi. Keep the marines behind the line until all colossi are dead. Then clean up with rines.
5. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Speed lot/ Add a reactored factory for helions and try to get blue flame whenever the gas frees up. Then just hit "E" and go to constitutive banshee production since you should already have air superiority.This will free up gas for Thors as long as you have an armory down, which may come in handy if phoenix spring on the board.
6. Mid game vs Tier one + Immortal/Blink/ Stick with tank marine and save that Raven. Plop a PDD and stalkers are null and void.
7. Mid game vs Tier one + DT/HT's/ As long as your raven is alive DT's are not an issue. HT's will never get to you rines without taking tank fire first, or snipe them with helions.
8. Late Game/: I generalize this section because my games never get to the late game. I go scv all-in at two base before toss takes bases 3 and 4. At this point you have at least 3 factories (two teched one reactored) and three rax (two reactored one teched for upgrades) and a teched star port. You may add a reactored star port for Viking/Medivac assuming you are on 6 geysers and suspect mass air play. You may build a fourth barrack and have two teched rax for Ghost production in the event of heavy archon/immortal play. Don't go for marauders. Don't spam production buildings either. Focus on upgrades and get the most bang for your buck.
So all in all, what is the point here? The build NEVER CHANGES. 3 Factory 3 Rax. If you get the timing attack down you won't have to worry about imbalanced upgrades in the mid game. Every toss counter is pretty much nullified with your composition. If you are a player who doesn't like scouting and making drastic adjustments game to game, try this. Lemme know if any of you need a replay.
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i've been using this pretty successfully in high diamond. i like to mix in 3-4 thors with my tanks and hellions though. i actually faced a protoss that withstood my inital push(he went to 90 supply) while i came out at around 130-140ish. i was nervous cause he had 12 or so gates so i started laying down planetaries(shattered temple) and missle turrets all over the center, and started sniping probes with hellions. he hid his carriers pretty damn good, because 7 of them came from nowhere but luckily i accidently made 4 extra thors lol. carrier and blink stalker is kind of hard to deal with, because he ravaged my base pretty good but i got the W
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On May 18 2011 08:16 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: @GinDo: Did you watch a bunch of the replays he made in his OP? He has faced quite a variety of strategies using this build and you would be surprised to see how effective it is. In that last game he hadn't even gotten to the late game which is where this build starts to look unfair.
Although I do feel there is a huge window with this type of build before the planetary madness starts which gives the Protoss room to maneuver around the map and circumvent the terran defenses... But that timing varies from map to map depending on how defendable the third base is.
Watched all of them.
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. . . Well if you watched all of them you would see that he always had a healthy but not stupid tank number, supplementing them with lots of Planetary Fortresses and Turrets (making DT play completely unuseable), and with a handful of Ghosts that would allow him to slow creep his way up closer to the Protoss base. He would tech as necessary depending on what he was facing. If he was seeing a lot of air play he would go air to air. If they were focused on the ground army he would work on the ground.
I think the problem is some people think that he's ONLY making Hellions, Tanks and Thors. Perhaps a "true mech build" would only make those, but this build takes the spirit of mech but doesn't constrain itself.
I'm not saying it's perfect as I do agree there is quite a window where the Protoss can abuse the immobility of the tank line if he goes with Blink Stalkers (something I think would make a lot of sense). Just jumping around to where the Terran is not can do a lot of damage assuming you can get around the tank line (which you can only really do in the midgame before he splits the map in half).
In order for a build to be effective, it must be flexible. And this build is very flexible. I think it's silly to just blindly commit to one strategy and if you're in a deadlock just keep smashing away at it until it works. I like strategies that you can transition out of easily in order to deal with what your opponent is doing. Basically the early to mid game the build goes pretty hard with the mech as it allows you to hold on to your territory very securely and is extremely difficult for a Protoss to penetrate. Once you have multiple bases set up and you economy is going into overdrive, you can then transition out of it into whatever would make the most sense to defeat the Protoss composition.
Although lately, I feel that this build was hurt by the Thor's energy being added again in the latest patch. High Templar actually become much more potent as you can not only feedback the ghosts but also the Thors. I imagine a good way to deal with this type of play with lots of Hellion harass is to go either for blink stalkers OR to go for High Templar/Archon warp prism drops and using lots of Cannons to keep yourself defended from the Hellions. Admittedly, most of the games I saw from my fellow Protoss bretheren is that they didn't defend their expos nearly adequately enough.
Since they are in Ultra Uber Turtle mode, you can expand quite a bit and set up a lot of static defense. With a low mineral unit like the High Templar, you could afford this quite easily and start building up a lot of gateways. Harass when you can with some High Templar and Archons to try and make sure the Terran macro doesn't get out of control. Then you can get your economy really rolling and you can fund a huge gateway army that you can replenish instantly.
Well... Honestly that actually sounds very close to how the Zerg operates... But I think against a strategy like this it would make sense. Harass where you can to try and keep them from getting to strong, while building up an unstoppable macro where you can just repeatedly bash your quickly replaceable units against his costly time consuming ones, and eventually the Terran caves.
To be honest, I feel that is an evolution that the Protoss need to discover. I'm still testing it out, since the recent Archon buff made me rethink the possibility of using MASS gateway against a Terran or even a Zerg opponent. I'm hoping so, but we will see.
Regardless, I do really like this build. I have it bookmarked as I'm still working on getting really good at Protoss... But eventually I'll get around to Terran and this is a build that I want to keep in my back pocket as it truly does seem to be quite effective. Obviously it has it's vulnerabilities, but it's something that most Protoss players are not accustomed to dealing with.
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On May 18 2011 05:01 GinDo wrote:Its nice and all. But really i think what makes make non viable is the Blink Stalker Collosi composition. Collosi make all your hellions obsolete leaving your tanks vulnerable, and you have to sink so much supply into Vikings that your ground army lacks. Could you show some replays of Collosi Blink Zeal. EDIT: Also the Protoss in this replay is pretty crap. I've seen Diamonds play better -_-
Everything i have said about mech not working. I take it back. I've really been at a loss against Toss, and decided to go back to mech following the suggestions found here about PFs and..... It flipping works. I played a game were the only reason I didn't lose was PF saved by ass and gave me time to reinforce with Hellions and tanks.
Griffith your a genius. Really i think mechs power is in the players ability to play the late game, and to harass. Not to mention be aware of cheap moves toss can pull which are many. One must macro and harass. The ideal harass is hellion drops. All game long.
And my guess is that to solve the backstab issue seen in some maps is turrets and a PF on the cliff. Then threaten to backstab yourself with hellions.
I also realized that the mech player should not limit himself by not building early game marines, or mid to late banshees. Ah the Banshee. In my game today the second he stopped collosi production I made tech labs on all my Starports and pumped Banshees with my Hellion Tank.
Also. Ravens are very essential with PDD. Ghost really help to, but i find PDD to be more help full imo.
Thank You Griffith
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When securing your third how many seige tanks do you put behind the planetary fortress to protect your natural,
also when securing the 3rd, what do i do if the protoss does attack my natural, is the PF + tanks expected to hold it off,or do i use my normal army to attack him using the PF to stall for time, if so how do i position tanks ? they clump a ton when moving in a group
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mobility screws mech, i exclusively play mech in tvp but other than xel naga and close spawn lt / meta close spawn / air spawn its just meh, u can take games if toss plays like shit, happens a lot but the lack of mobilty will screw u vs any half brained toss
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i like thor/ghost better with 1initial starport which makes the needed initial banshees, raven, then into medivacs. thor drops can be very good if used right.
i like your inclusion of PFs... it churns out more scvs (sacrificial scvs tanking damage with thors and backed itself by medivacs are just awesome) plus after mass EMP.. toss would have nothing for an army.
siege tanks are wonderful but a tad slower than thor/medivac and thors do better with mass repair.
thor/ghost/scv/medivac is pretty awesome esp when seeing scvs heal medivacs, and medivacs healing scvs at the same time...it's an army that snowballs so fast it's incredible.
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