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[G] TvP The Art of Mech

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 20:11:40
March 05 2011 02:31 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This guide makes a ton of references to Brood War, but it should be accessible even to those who didn't play BW.

This is a guide on how to deal with even the most disgusting Protoss deathballs. (even 13+ Carriers)

Unit Composition and Upgrades

+ Show Spoiler +

Core Units:
0. SCV
1. Blue Flame Hellion
2. Siege Tank
3. Thor
4. Ghost

Situational Units:
1. Vikings
2. Medivacs
3. Battlecruisers

Core Upgrades:
1. +1 Range Hi-Sec Auto Tracking
2. +2 Building Armor
3. +3/+3 Vehicle Upgrades
4. Ghost Cloak

Situational Upgrades:
1. Air Upgrades
2. Ghost Energy

Core Buildings:
1. Planetary Fortress
2. Missile Turret


Before I introduce builds, there are several main issues that need to be immediately addressed when playing Mech. They are posed in Problem / Solution format.


#1: The immobility of your core army / Planetary Fortress
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: Because there are no vulture mines like BW, it is extremely important that Terran find a way to be able to defend both his third and his natural. On some maps like Shattered Temple, often it is all too easy for the toss to just simply "walk around" your main army.

Solution: You deal with this by using Planetary Fortresses to seal off alternative routes and to gain positional advantages. It is best to think of PFs not as an uber expensive building, but rather as a very cost-effective siege tank. As opposed to dumping your excess minerals into marines that get melted in 2 shots by colossi, why not instead dump them into a 1500HP, 5 Armor Behemoth that is the PF. Seriously 550/150 really isn't all that expensive. Remember, the +2 Armor is very important. 5 Armor PFs take a zealot 250 hits to knockdown. 3 Armor PFs take 187.5 hits, roughly translating to a +30% HP increase in all your structures. Furthermore, PFs have the same attack priority as other units, meaning that if they simply a-move into your PF-fortified base, chances are that the bulk of their units will focus on the closest unit (usually the PF) as opposed to your tanks.

Think back to BW, how did Terran deal with their relative immobility? How did Terran deal with mass recall? A: by planting spider mines everywhere to hinder protoss movement.

PFs in SC2 serve essentially the same purpose, but better: they are almost impossible to take down without protoss suffering from serious damage.

[image loading]

The above image should illustrate how to place PFs on Shattered Temple. Note that I am Blue, and I want to secure my 3rd at 4'oclock. But I am afraid of a protoss attack into my 5' oclock natural expansion, so I make a PF right in front of my 5 clock base with some siege tank support to deter him from attack it. This way I can re-position the bulk of my forces at my 3rd.

[image loading]

Note how wide the middle area is, so I place more PFs in the middle to prevent run bys from the side.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

Another set of progressions showing how to force Protoss to always be engaging near your PFs or Turrets while you slowly push your way into his base

#2: Protoss Shields / Ghosts
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: In BW, Siege tanks did 70 base damage to protoss shields. In SC2, it can be as low as 35 damage. Compound that with the issues of Hardened Shields on immortals that absolutely wreck Armored Mech, tanks suddenly seem a lot less attractive.

Solution: Always have 4+ ghosts. Believe it or not, Siege Tanks actually do more damage than their BW counterparts. BW Tanks have a fire rate of 4.5 seconds, SC2 tanks have a fire rate of 3 seconds. There is reason why ghost academy is only 150/50. It is an extremely accessible unit, make 2 ghosts early (11 minutes or so) so you can start storing their energy. Getting one ghost at 10:00 game time is equal to getting two ghosts at 12:13 game time. You NEED your ghosts with your army all the time, always keep your ghosts on their own control group for easy access.

#3: Protoss Air / Missile Turrets + Air Upgrades
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: How the fuck do you deal with Carriers/Void-Rays? You may at first think this is a joke, but I've heard this said so many times over that its lost its comic value. The reason you don't see Carriers in Bio TvP is because you will never give protoss a chance to macro up to 13 carriers. However, with the expansion focused and greedy mech play, Carriers are a considerable threat. Compound that by the fact Carriers have double the DPS of their BW counter parts, you have yourself a real problem.

Solution: Missile Turrets, Thors, BCs, Vikings, oh and more Missile Turrets. You want units with massive amounts of armor and HP. SC2 Missile Turrets are far superior to their BW counterparts (despite its slight increase in cost) because of the +1 Range, +2 Armor Upgrades, and increased DPS. Trying to go pure vikings is not the properly solution, as vikings essentially become paper air planes against carriers. Note that you CANNOT kite carriers, contrary to popular belief, because once a carrier engages a viking, interceptors will auto attack up to range 14. This is why you need Battlecruisers ,as they become flying ultralisks when fully upgraded. Think of BC/Viking as the air equivalent of Thor/Tank. You want your BCs and Thors to be at the front tanking the bulk of the damage. It should be noted that because there is no interceptor auto-repair like in BW (meaning that interceptors die really fast). So your goal is to kill Carriers by surviving long enough to kill the bulk of the interceptors.

Void-Rays aren't so much a problem because you can kite void-rays using vikings. Phoenixes may seem like a nuisance, but just think of it as a weaker muta harass. You deal with by making missile turrets (pre-emptively). Oh, remember those 3-4 ghosts you have? Use the EMP on protoss air, it does wonders for you.

Updated for Patch 1.3: BCs are now the goto-solution against protoss air. BCs are cost-effective with Yamato Cannon against just about EVERY Protoss air unit (yes even void rays, though viking support never hurts).


#4. Chronoboosted Expansion Economy / Hellions
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: You can't leave a protoss macro unchecked. Their chronoboost mechanics mean that they will out-worker you very easily if you don't do something about it. Especially against mech, many protoss players will mass-expand everywhere.

Solution: Multi-pronged blue-flame hellion harass and drops. You want protoss to be running around everywhere and camping colossi at every mineral line. It takes about 2 colossi or 4 photon cannons per mineral line to effectively shutdown 4 hellion harass. If protoss has 3 bases, that's already 6 colossi invested into static defense. If instead Protoss decides to sink 550 minerals worth of photon cannons at each base, you've already done your damage.

[image loading]

Two pronged hellion raids are extremely effective.

#5. Chronoboosted Upgrades / Double Armory.
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: Protoss often rapidly accelerates his ground upgrades using chronoboost, and thereby getting a very fast 3/3. 3/3 Chargelots, Colossi, Immortals are a nightmare to deal with if you are behind on upgrades.

Solution: Double Armory build. You need to do your best to get to 3/3 Vehicle Weapons (before 20 minutes). Although upgrading does not directly kill units in less shots, splash damage makes it so surrounding units take more damage and could potentially die from less hits (even at identical level upgrades).

#6. Splashing your own units / Staying Power of Thors + PFs
+ Show Spoiler +

Problem: Chargelots literally run up to your tanks in the blink of an eye. Typically unprotected tanks will get off 1 shot before chargelots are up in their faces. Next thing you know, you are splashing your own tanks to death. General rule of thumb from BW was that siege tanks need to get off around 2 hits to be effective, in SC2, I find that tanks need to get off on average, 2.5 shots to be considered cost-effective. This means that you need roughly 7.5 seconds of staying power for your tanks. Think of staying power as a measurement of how long a unit can absorb damage.

Solution: Use thors, hellions, and PFs as meatshields to improve your staying power, not to deal damage, but rather to absorb splash damage when they are surrounded. Remember why tanks are horrid against ultralisks? Well, doing 65 damage to an ultralisk once every 3 seconds is really no damage at all. Similar principle applies but for splash. If chargelots surround a thor, who cares if you're splashing your own thor with 33 damage once every 3 seconds? It would take 13 hits from splash to kill a thor by one tank fire. It would take 50 hits from splash damage to bring down a PF. This is also why bio works horrible with mech, as marines (and even marauders) have almost no staying power in the face of storm/colossi.

Blink stalkers are rarely an issue because they get owned so quickly by tanks even if they do try to blink right on top of your tank army (and generally you always want to have your tanks spread out about 3 units apart to mitigate colossi splash damage).


Cookie Cutter Opener

+ Show Spoiler +

Again, this is only an opening. It is very much based on BW's KTFlash Build off Siege Expand. I've tested it against 4gate, 3gate VR, 3gate robo, and other forms of all-ins. If protoss hasn't expanded by 6:00, you need to immediately put up two bunkers (earlier if you want more safety). If he has very low sentry count, that likely means either VRs or DTs, in which case you will need a fast e-bay.

10 Supply (Scout after 9 Supply on 2 player maps)
12 Rax (Scout after 12 Rax on 4 player maps)
13 Gas [1]
15 OC
16 Supply
20 Factory
22 Supply
25 Tech Lab on Factory
31 Supply (and throughout)
33 CC (build in base then float out)
38 Gas [2]
45 Gas [3]
45 Gas [4] (Yes you want your expansion gases to be going up just as your CC is finishing into an OC)
48 OC
[48 Engineering Bay] Get an early e-bay if Toss stays on one base, as there is the chance of either 3Gate VR or DT expand
48 Armory
55 Siege Tech (I get it late because Unsieged Tanks do ample DPS, however, Rush Siege Tech if you are faced with heavy aggression or all-in and they are camping outside your expansion.)
%100 Siege Tech, Research Pre-igniter

At this point, once you have secured your expansion, you can cut marine production and start focusing on mech.

Next task is to:

Factory [2]
Ghost Academy
Command Center
Starport
Armory

Unlike BW, you CANNOT make only 3 marines and be done with your barracks. Protoss has a lot more powerful cheese builds than simply 2-Gate Powergoon in StarCraft 2. You need pretty much constant marine production, with the exception of 1 gate FE, that often its not worth cutting any marines (even if to make a tech lab).



The Mentality

Your mentality should be greedy yourself while preventing protoss from being excessively greedy. Typically, if you can control the center of the map, you will win the game. For this reason, you want to start making command centers non-stop (First one at around 12:00, Second one at around 14:00). The first CC is used for your expansion, the second CC is turned into a PF and placed at the alternate entrance depending how you want to expand. Unlike BW, you CAN go for non-stop hellion harass of mineral lines. You should always abuse the benefits of blue flame hellion harass.

Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146892-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk (vs Far, masters Protoss, former BW player, and also good friend of mine)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146409-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk (mass carriers)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146703-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk (3k+ masters mass colossi immortal phoenix HT)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146820-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146932-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk

More replays are being compiled. Feel free to add in your own.
griffith.583 (NA)
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 02:36:35
March 05 2011 02:32 GMT
#2
Lol, you just one upped that other TvP Mech guide.

One thing, I wouldn't endorse putting PFs absolutely everywhere. That's wasteful because while PForts are border line broken mid-game while being super repaired, they are just speed bumps for any 200/200 late game army. I suppose that depends on the replay.

I'll post some more thoughts after watching the rep.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Red Alert
Profile Joined June 2009
United States119 Posts
March 05 2011 02:39 GMT
#3
lol. got any replays against decent players? You can beat diamond protosses with pretty much anything.
statikg
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada930 Posts
March 05 2011 02:47 GMT
#4
The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
March 05 2011 02:55 GMT
#5
On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote:
The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.


Scout and transition. Those builds are mostly "all-in" (3 gate robo is semi all-in if you're pushing with 2 quick immortals, very delayed expansion) so if you defend it, you should be fine, but you gotta transition into the build of your choice to destroy him by either economy, or just powering through him with your army since his can't replenish due to probe count.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
Duka08
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
3391 Posts
March 05 2011 02:57 GMT
#6
So good, was waiting for this Grif! Will be hitting up replays later and trying it out. Such a unique way of describing the priority / "build order" for the overall game, and the Problem and Answer is so smart.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 03:10:50
March 05 2011 03:06 GMT
#7
On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote:
The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.


Mech is kinda like Magic Carp. You have to make it live through enough stuff to hit that critical point where it becomes pretty awesome.

You need to either keep the toss from moving out with harass(which doesn't work well as often as it used to) or you need to be able to defend a frontal assault... which you might be able to do with three bases, but then it becomes very difficult to move to 3 base mech without getting over extended. Personally I think its going to go the way that PredY is playing. It goes Bio->Get Expo->Add Support Mech->Get 3 Base->Heavy Mech.

On March 05 2011 11:55 iChau wrote:
Scout and transition. Those builds are mostly "all-in" (3 gate robo is semi all-in if you're pushing with 2 quick immortals, very delayed expansion) so if you defend it, you should be fine, but you gotta transition into the build of your choice to destroy him by either economy, or just powering through him with your army since his can't replenish due to probe count.


Who cares if something is 'all-in' if it is something with a high win rate? What are you suppose to transition into? If you go early mech you have to solve a multitude of problems with factory based solutions. This is the problem with straight Mech. Factory units aren't actually that good in small numbers. So you have to defend everything the Protoss can throw at you when you are the weakest.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Slide
Profile Joined October 2010
United States10 Posts
March 05 2011 03:34 GMT
#8
I think this is pretty impressive for moving to mid/end game play.

The biggest problem, as stated many times before, is the transition. I think combining this end game with the bio->mech transition will be what TvP will become.

One guide eventually gets a bunch of OC's then sacs SCVs to build a bigger army. Since with this you build a ton of CC's anyway, perhaps this in conjunction with that theory will be very good.
Terranium
Profile Joined February 2004
Turkmenistan144 Posts
March 05 2011 03:51 GMT
#9
The guide is quite comprehensive and it has some very good points. The replay tho is kinda lame. For those of you interested in learning mech, I recommend checking out avilo's replays,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195223
He's got quite a few solid wins against some NA top 200 toss players
Shron
Profile Joined March 2010
United States162 Posts
March 05 2011 03:59 GMT
#10
Interesting strategy. I'll have to try out "Griffith's™ Mech" in my future games.

Seems like the expansion isn't exactly safe, though. Post more replays vs aggressive openers.
"I produced a lot of units and was given this award. I didn't know I produced so many units. Next season I will produce more units." - Nestea
NintendoStar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States217 Posts
March 05 2011 04:09 GMT
#11
I've went up against something like this, and it is way more effective than I would have thought. Having PFs everywhere might seem really expensive, but it also means that protoss can pretty much never attack head on without taking serious damage. If terran is able to get in the late game with this, I'm really not sure what to do. Storm is pretty much worthless since you will never get close enough to storm the tanks, colossi can be focused down pretty easily when you have really large numbers of tanks, and immortals/archons can just be emp'd to death.
"oh well then u can just get off this site then if ya'll goin to play it like dat fool i write like dis cos itz gangstar" -Linko8697
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
March 05 2011 04:14 GMT
#12
I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.
I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 04:25:26
March 05 2011 04:18 GMT
#13
On March 05 2011 13:14 Joedaddy wrote:
I'd love to see several replays of your mech style vs blink stalkers. I only say it because KawaiiRice was saying last night that he feels mech is only working because most toss don't know how to play against it yet. He also said that anyone who is close to good with blink stalkers just destros mech builds.


Blink stalkers for combat purposes are rarely an issue, as EMPed stalkers get 2-shotted by Siege Tanks.

However, for mobility purposes (ie. the infamous Blink Stalker/Colossi Combo), it can be a nuisance to deal with. This was actually one of the main reasons that forced the PF + Sensor Tower combination. Because once you put a PF, they are extremely difficult for a toss to take down _quickly_ without the help of immortals. Stalkers are extremely cost ineffective against PFs. Even a fully upgraded colossi will need around 80 seconds to take down a 5 armor PF.

Think of it this way, if you spend 550/150 on 1-2 PFs that essentially shuts down the mobility advantage of blink stalkers, in exchange for them having a worthless combat unit combination, then its worth it because you can pretty much just push into their base.
griffith.583 (NA)
Tsuycc
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada269 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 05:50:34
March 05 2011 05:38 GMT
#14
I guess I didn't hear that PF's were the new spider mines


edit: how many bases do you think you can support on having PF's in the middle?
[Hoping spider mines are brought back in SC2] // MarineKing // Leta // Polt | Terran Pride "my girlfriend is the medivac" -Rain
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 07:00:27
March 05 2011 06:51 GMT
#15
You can spam PFs as soon as you get your 3rd tbh, with 2.5k+ income its really absurd how much minerals you can rake in. You can't realistically spend it all because once you hit 200/200 and you start stockpiling minerals, you need to put the excess into structures (read: offensive PFs and Turrets)

PS. I'll be adding more replays soon.
griffith.583 (NA)
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
March 05 2011 10:21 GMT
#16
Interesting strategy. I would really like to see some replays against a well executed 4-gate and a fast DT rush that is not spotted. I suspect that this build has to little military to hold a 4-gate and get the engineering bay to late against a DT rush.

However it does solve on major problem though. Normally I go both MM and Mech since after having wiped out each other in that 200/200 battle Protoss can get his reinforcement into your base faster than you can get your mech out. By having PF at good locations it will be easier to hold until you can get your army rebuilt.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 10:26:51
March 05 2011 10:25 GMT
#17
I've been wondering when terrans would start getting building armor and putting PF's in key spots on the map.

God dammit OP, now I'm going to have to deal with this shit too. Stop trying to make mech plays stronger, I just figured out how to beat bio play all the time >_<.

As for DT's, one turret and a PF, and no DT can go near it.

I also think that when playing mech, you should always get a fast raven. Detection for dt's and observer hunting (which really really really hurts the protoss), and you get the PDD to shut down early stalker plays.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
hi im new
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany150 Posts
March 05 2011 10:55 GMT
#18
any strategy that involves blue flame helions is instantly good so yeah go ahead and play like this
GDbushido
Profile Joined March 2011
United States926 Posts
March 05 2011 11:11 GMT
#19
what kind of protoss sees a 1-1 open without even a bunker and doesnt 4gate?
remember not to think too much and your trip will be numbingly pleasant
hi im new
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany150 Posts
March 05 2011 11:20 GMT
#20
i played vs mech 2 games in a row just now and was able to win very easily with blink stalker phoenix immortal

so tip for protosses who struggle against this: don't build colossi against mech, do build phoenixes to negate blue flame faggotry because just 3 or 4 helions can instantly win the game for the terran.
also they are quite good at lifting tanks and even if they die shortly thereafter, just negating a few tank and thor hits can be a huge deal considering immortals will plow through tanks in seconds once they actually get to them. obviously ghosts can be lifted as well.
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