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I was going to make a thread like this when I switched to full mech 2 weeks ago, except instead of PF's I was using salvage bunkers to create a mobile wall that I could leap frog to the enemys base. But then I started posting in some of the TvP threads talking about a mech build in replys and got sick of defending something that nobody is willing to even try out for a few games instead I get this
-Oh well tanks are garbage
-Oh well therees no way you could mech
-Oh well why you would you mech when you can go bio
-Oh well this will rape mech
-Oh well that will rape mech
I repsonded with the same question twice asking if people had even tried mech and nobobdy replied.
So damn annoying I decided not to post the thread and now you have and you seem to be getting the same shit storm that was going to happen to me if I posted it.
Mech will become standard in TvP, Its only a matter of time. You cant build tier 1.5 units the entire game and expect the meta game to not adapt. Theres so many T's ive seen on this forum who bitch about late game TvP and cant seem to think that going solely tier 1.5 could maybe be a problem.
Anyways nice thread, keep on theorycrafting everybody, I mean who tries a build out anymore...
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I'm at a loss as to how to beat this late game. X-positions on ST, it's really hard to avoid splitting the map, and mech with PF's and turrets everywhere is just not breakable. Yeah there are some potential holes where some kind of 1 base break might work, but my style is macro oriented and I am very good at forcing the late game against bio and then winning with mass gateways and mass storm... but that doesn't work against this. Immortals are bad in large numbers, colossus are vulnerable to the turrets... basically you have to do some kind of stargate transition but mass carriers has so many pitfalls, and if u blanket the map with turrets like griffith does, then this is not going to be easy.
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On March 06 2011 16:15 XXXSmOke wrote:
I was going to make a thread like this when I switched to full mech 2 weeks ago, except instead of PF's I was using salvage bunkers to create a mobile wall that I could leap frog to the enemys base. But then I started posting in some of the TvP threads talking about a mech build in replys and got sick of defending something that nobody is willing to even try out for a few games instead I get this
-Oh well tanks are garbage
-Oh well therees no way you could mech
-Oh well why you would you mech when you can go bio
-Oh well this will rape mech
-Oh well that will rape mech
I repsonded with the same question twice asking if people had even tried mech and nobobdy replied.
So damn annoying I decided not to post the thread and now you have and you seem to be getting the same shit storm that was going to happen to me if I posted it.
Mech will become standard in TvP, Its only a matter of time. You cant build tier 1.5 units the entire game and expect the meta game to not adapt. Theres so many T's ive seen on this forum who bitch about late game TvP and cant seem to think that going solely tier 1.5 could maybe be a problem.
Anyways nice thread, keep on theorycrafting everybody, I mean who tries a build out anymore...
Then maybe you can post some replays that would quiet the naysayers? All of the replays posted so far show either really passive protoss or protoss's who keep trying to attack into an entrenched mech army.
I'd like to see replays that address the theoretically strong counters to terran mech (good early/all game long blink play, collosus abusing cliffs, mass expanding, good sim city to block helions, warp prism harass before the T can cover everything with turrets and you're spread out, etc)
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On March 05 2011 11:47 statikg wrote:
The problem with playing mech IMO is I always die while I am trying to get my economy going. Your cookie cutter opening wont be able to hold against any sort of competent 1base protoss play. Any variety of 4gate, 3gate stargate, 3gate robo would probably run you over before you have enough with just 1rax FE.
If he delays the CC and gets the tank+ siege first the build is safe vs. everything in my experience (assuming reactor rax, bunkers, and repair). However, usually at that point though most P will have enough to defend anything you can push with and simply get a fast third and stomp you.
My experience anyway.
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I was referring to the hellions, tank push you made after getting warp prisme'd.
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I'm at a loss as to how to beat this late game. X-positions on ST, it's really hard to avoid splitting the map, and mech with PF's and turrets everywhere is just not breakable. Yeah there are some potential holes where some kind of 1 base break might work, but my style is macro oriented and I am very good at forcing the late game against bio and then winning with mass gateways and mass storm... but that doesn't work against this. Immortals are bad in large numbers, colossus are vulnerable to the turrets... basically you have to do some kind of stargate transition but mass carriers has so many pitfalls, and if u blanket the map with turrets like griffith does, then this is not going to be easy.
Just saying here... it's mech. He's wasted money on PFs. He's wasted money on turrets. His sole savior is his army doesn't die every engagement because he doesn't engage at all.
What beats mech cost for cost? V-V-V-V-V-V-VOIDRAYS!
Get a Mship and voidrays, or hell ever carriers. He goes into a ball with thors, vortex, and just the voidrays run wild.
You can't sit passive and macro against this cheesey slow push because you will lose 90% of the time once he gets moving with PF's and turrets. It's just mech with that kind of ball size and upgrades will literally shit on you.
Then maybe you can post some replays that would quiet the naysayers? All of the replays posted so far show either really passive protoss or protoss's who keep trying to attack into an entrenched mech army.
I'd like to see replays that address the theoretically strong counters to terran mech (good early/all game long blink play, collosus abusing cliffs, mass expanding, good sim city to block helions, warp prism harass before the T can cover everything with turrets and you're spread out, etc)
Exactly. I believe early 3 gate blink stalkers can walk right past and hit when he only has 2-3 tanks max, and force unsieging and just general havoc. The key for protoss players is to NOT play passive as they like to do, and scout and be very aggressive to keep him on 2 bases and not expanding.
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is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ?
i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds
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On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote:
is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ?
i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds
You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR
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On March 07 2011 03:30 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote:
is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ?
i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR
You haven't play against my 3 gate stargate >
Remember about the marine range vs. warp range of a pylon? Spotting with a depot just gives the void something to charge on.
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On March 07 2011 05:38 farseerdk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 03:30 Griffith` wrote:On March 07 2011 00:34 derpzzz wrote:
is this build safe from 3gate VR rush ?
i always was under impression that VR rush>1rax factory builds You are constantly producing marines throughout with your 1 rax until you add your starport - I've never had issues with 3Gate VR You haven't play against my 3 gate stargate > Remember about the marine range vs. warp range of a pylon? Spotting with a depot just gives the void something to charge on.
A 1 Rax factory shouldn't get demolished by fast VR because the siege tanks keep the gateway units away so your basically relying on your VR vs Marines and turrets trying to get at the tanks. I've held off a ton of 3 gate VR contains. It only hurts because usually they'll expand before you as you are contained but it's never gg due to quick VRs unless your sloppy which isn't a strategy fault.
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Once again, Griffith, you're going to make me fail my classes
Because I really want to try this.
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I like you're strat, but I do think marines are a crucial part of any terran build, their dps is just too ridiculous to ignore. If you want to see a well executed mech v toss build you should check out MC vs Jinro from last season. It was a 2-0 by Jinro and the first game was on LT, can't really remember the second game was played, but it was a complete and utter outclassing of the best PvT in the world.
I think a lot of what you've cover holds true, but instead of the PFs Jinro included marines. He was constantly upgrading at his armories, and he included some ravens and vikings into his mix, not a lot, but just enough to stop pheonixes from having their way with the tanks. I also think medivacs are ESSENTIAL for mech play, to keep the toss on his heels with hellions and keep him from getting too big.
It seemed like the most important part of his strat, and what separates his mech play from other fail mech play, is his supplementing of his force with bunkered marines and lots of turrets. This makes immortals MUCH less effective and also gives some coverage against VRs and pheonixes. This makes mech pushes almost unstoppable.
I don't think talk of massing voidrays and carriers should ever come into a discussion about this, because toss should never be able to get THAT far ahead, and have that much time to produce a force without you knowing. Hellions should be poking and prodding all game long so you should have a tab of what they are doing. It should never come to the point where you're like, "oh shit, he's got 8 carriers." That's just ridiculous.
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On March 07 2011 10:41 fire_brand wrote:
I like you're strat, but I do think marines are a crucial part of any terran build, their dps is just too ridiculous to ignore. If you want to see a well executed mech v toss build you should check out MC vs Jinro from last season. It was a 2-0 by Jinro and the first game was on LT, can't really remember the second game was played, but it was a complete and utter outclassing of the best PvT in the world.
I think a lot of what you've cover holds true, but instead of the PFs Jinro included marines. He was constantly upgrading at his armories, and he included some ravens and vikings into his mix, not a lot, but just enough to stop pheonixes from having their way with the tanks. I also think medivacs are ESSENTIAL for mech play, to keep the toss on his heels with hellions and keep him from getting too big.
It seemed like the most important part of his strat, and what separates his mech play from other fail mech play, is his supplementing of his force with bunkered marines and lots of turrets. This makes immortals MUCH less effective and also gives some coverage against VRs and pheonixes. This makes mech pushes almost unstoppable.
I don't think talk of massing voidrays and carriers should ever come into a discussion about this, because toss should never be able to get THAT far ahead, and have that much time to produce a force without you knowing. Hellions should be poking and prodding all game long so you should have a tab of what they are doing. It should never come to the point where you're like, "oh shit, he's got 8 carriers." That's just ridiculous.
On the topic of protoss cheese sneaking air units against mech, what's even more difficult when you mech is knowing how many vikings to make.
So you've scouted the stargate, and it's been there for a while. Can you be sure if he cut production or if he's hiding them in the corner of the map?? It's tough to say, and you have to be good at looking at his unit composition and being like "ok hes hiding gas somewhere"
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Usually I have enough missile turrets spammed around my base that it buys me enough time to mass reactor vikings, I typically only make vikings until I see either MASS colossi or MASS air.
Trust me whatever silly harass shenanigans SC2 protoss may have (eg. Colossi/Blink, warp prism, phoenix harass) ain't got NOTHING on arbiter recalls and reaver drops
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Hellions will not be able to prod against any P that gets phoenix.
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Gotta say that i was amazed when i watched the "Unit lost" tab after each rep... and thats kinda the all point of mech - Cost effectivness
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On March 07 2011 13:57 Griffith` wrote:Trust me whatever silly harass shenanigans SC2 protoss may have (eg. Colossi/Blink, warp prism, phoenix harass) ain't got NOTHING on arbiter recalls and reaver drops
Yeah really. I tried using immortal drops and failed miserably. Prisms are sort of useful but they don't move your army, the just give you another spot to create it from, and you can warp in robotics units which are stronger against mech...
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(nvm...thought of a broodwar-like problem, but didn't think of the brood-war like solution... how do I delete)
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I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
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On March 07 2011 17:45 Terranium wrote:
I was a big fan of mech TvP until one day I got steamrolled by this toss who added a few sentries into his army. Just a few full engery sentries can easily create 10+ hallucinated immortals and let me tell you these things are ridiculously overpowered against mech. Each of these hallucinated immortals can take 7~8 tank shots and they completely remove any range advantage siege tanks have.
This is one of the hardcounters, indeed . I played alot of mech in the past and let me tell you 1 thing: on the big maps you can't defend more then 3 bases (otherwise your tanks have to form a very huge spreaded line, which is a party for toss). While you are defending these 3bases hardcore, the GOOD toss will expand like a zerg. A toss with much expansions = a toss with alot of gas and recources. Do you think a mech army can hold the protoss his production? You can hellion harass, but if the protoss sees that you go mech, he will put 2-3 cannons at every expo. You will never be able to probe harass properly. So basicly for protoss players: keep him on max 3 bases, expand like a zerg, put cannons at every expo, enjoy.
The time I played mech, some top 100 protoss players adviced me to never mech. They called it "a free win" for them. When I watch goody or any other mech terran, I never see them winning, unless the protoss is passive (= not expanding as a zerg) / stupid (= running with mass gateway units into a siegetank line).
Mech works wonders below 3000 masters, but above it's really shit, believe me.
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EPT
