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On March 08 2011 12:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
The only potential way to stop this is to use mass hallucinate to fool sensor towers but Sentries won't be that useful in a direct fight against Mech so it might be a wash.
Well not really. Personally when i see red on my sensor towers my 1st instinct is to scan. Scan reveals hallucinations.
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tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\
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one way to combat mech is doing cheesy stuff when youre transitioning bases, like taking your natural with a mech opening can be tricky, taking your third without getting busted open and getting your fourth without being harrassed to smithereens or tech switched on can be tricky as well.
in a macro game protoss imo needs to do high templar and DT harrass to slow the terran down, and build up a big robotics buster army and then do a 300 food push with mass warpgates to warp in high templar/DT/zealots to clean up. archons are really good at cleaning up if they get the chance to because their high health is made better by the fact that the tank numbers have been beaten down.
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I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
If I was to put myself in the tosses shoes....
Id try and treat it more like chess, you gota be extremely patient. You have to find weak spots in his positioning and use that to your advantage. You have also got to step up the harass, warp prism templar is good, small groups of blink stalks can be good. You have also got to be able to flank well vs a mech army. Then just focus on the economy take that down til you overwhelm him.
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They key here is to avoid splitting the map with the Terran. If you allow the Terran to be on equal bases to you in the end game, you WILL lose. Mech is super cost effective when you're forced to fight it head on. For the majority of the game, you can avoid fighting it, but there comes a time when you must fight it. Basically this occurs when there are turrets blanketing the whole goddamn map and PF's at key locations.
I've been thinking of the most effective ways to stop this style and I've come up with the following:
1) 1 base breaks. Griffth's opening is not airtight and with good control you can smash him with a couple of Protoss 1 base breaks. 3 gate stargate with a void ray spotting for a pylon to warp zealots up a cliff will defeat a terran making fewer than 2 barracks. 4 gate can also work, but it can work in any situation so yeah. Proper scouting and a refinement to the seige expand could probably fix this though. Terran's with super micro might also be able to kill u. Not a true answer, IMHO.
2) Aggressive expansions. Typically, you'll want to expand away from a terran player, but against a meching terran, it's better to make him engage to you win expansions. Fight him before the PF's and turrets are up. Fight him before the critical mass of tanks is up. Make him ATTACK you, don't ATTACK him, but make him ATTACK you before the foodcount gets too high. This is the close positions response.
3) 1 gate FE --> quick gold 3rd --> 3 base carrier. Before he has enough turrets. If he spams too many turrets, run him over with mass zealot/immortal. Risky as hell because you can be killed by an MM tech switch or just by mass thor/hellion in a timing before you have enough carriers to win. This is the cross positions response.
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How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but it is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
Edit: Also had a look at your sample build. I feel 15 Orbital is very arguable in its effectiveness as an opening. I wouldn't advertise it as standard play.
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On March 08 2011 13:25 wonderwall wrote:
How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
With good positioning you can play mech on any map, in fact my favorite map to mech on is Xel Naga.
-With all the entry ways, hellion harass is incredible on this map.
-The middle gold base is a good frontal position setup. Once you take this you can use hellions to grab both towers and get some good map control.
- The other third is nice because you can put tanks on the cliffs around it or below it to expand your reach when you control the middle of the map.
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On March 08 2011 13:25 wonderwall wrote:
How does map consideration factor into your strategy? I think it's very important that you used Lost Temple as an example as it is very easy to split the map, even after the changes, and easily defend 6base which is where mech shines.
On a map such as Xelnaga where there are half a dozen ways for his army to push at any one time how does your mech strategy change? Or do you simply not mech on Xel Naga and play standard. I understand PF's can be used as a roadblock to a degree but I am hesitant to say that they will stop a max food army from walking along a specific route in due fashion. A gateway Colossus ball needs to stay together but it is pretty fast in wandering around the map. This leads to the problem which you rightfully picked up on with Mech being able to exude total dominance over one main area, but is slow to reposition itself and control a new area.
He blocks off alternate attack paths with PF's with the armor and range upgrade. The backdoor on Xelnaga can probably be held by a single PF, and you can lock down one of the center sides with PF's & Turrets while keeping your mech at the other. The only way this would break down is if it is a REALLY big map with many wide open attack paths.
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I could beat this easily on Terminus or Taldarim, but on Shattered it's a pain. Xelnaga could also be tough.
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Nice guide. I might try it out, but with some changes.
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On March 08 2011 13:16 XXXSmOke wrote:
I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
On March 08 2011 13:11 Griffith` wrote:
tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\
You guys are obviously theorycrafting I'm sure you have never played a toss who gets hallucinations. I guess thats why you have no idea how ridiculously strong hallucinated immortals are against a tank heavy mech army. I know this because I've been raped by hallucinations in a couple of games.
All toss needs is 5 sentries (which are by no means a huge investment)and a 100ish food standard army pushing as your trying to get your third up. Trust me, you won't have the gas off 2 bases to make enough ghosts AND tanks that can deal with 10 fake immortals + bunch of real colossi and gateway units.
All these hallucinates ever need to do is to tank the first few shots to give the real army a perfect surround. Then its like havign your army caught unsieged in the middle of an open field. Guess what its gg. The thing is you can't tell your siege tanks not to hit the fake ones, even you know they are just hallucinations, if you manually control them you'll ruin smart fire.
The only good news is that most toss players think of hallucinations the way you do, ironically, and that is reason I still have sucess meching against toss on the ladder. If mech ever is to become popular, hallucinated immortals need to be fixed. Mark my words.
I play mech at 3400 master level btw.
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Shouldn't ravens reveal the hallucinations to the tanks' AI? If it doesn't, then abusing sentries hallucinate will be Toss' counter to mech. Btw, I AM theory crafting coz I seldom go mech. Can anybody verify?
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How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions?
I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T
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On March 08 2011 16:24 BatCat wrote:
How do you deal with early Colossus/Immortal compositions?
I meched a few games and KiWiKaKi just handily rolled my tankheavy build with Colossi/Immortals. But it doesn't even take him, others did it too and stopped me from meching. They kill like 6 tanks without losing any of their important units T.T
The second you see collsi production you need to get vikings asap. In the mid game you cant really get ghosts yet so you have to use your hellions to focus fire down the immortals shields, this usually isnt to bad because the immortals tend to ball up so if you position your hellions right they can eat through the shields pretty quick. Hellion/Tank/Viking Is great versus collsi/immortal as long as your sieged up in a nice spread out position. Viking/Tank has great synergy as well if I can scout him before he engages I can usually use my vikings range to sneak some shots on the colllsi and if he gets too aggresive with his stalks he will lose a few as they get to close to my tank line. The Range of these units is a huge buffer for this build.
At what stage is he attacking you? Is he trying to deny your third? Hellion counter attacks are another factor in stopping protoss aggression. Hellion harass can force him to warp units back home rather than reinforce his attack. Ive even had some games where protoss will win the main fight, but will lose too many probes then with mass repair and new units popping out and siegeing on the cliffs I can barely hold out on the attack and then his economy is in shambles.
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On March 08 2011 15:14 Terranium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 13:16 XXXSmOke wrote:
I agree w the hallucination, it gets quite obvious when they have way too many immortals then they should have. EMP will put that idea down the drain and then youll have useless sentrys.
Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 13:11 Griffith` wrote:
tbh given the way splash works and how EMP works, I'd just end up EMPing your hallucinated immortals (which get 2 shotted by tanks anyways) as you still end up a huge ball regardless only this time you have a bunch of useless sentries left =\ You guys are obviously theorycrafting I'm sure you have never played a toss who gets hallucinations. I guess thats why you have no idea how ridiculously strong hallucinated immortals are against a tank heavy mech army. I know this because I've been raped by hallucinations in a couple of games. All toss needs is 5 sentries (which are by no means a huge investment)and a 100ish food standard army pushing as your trying to get your third up. Trust me, you won't have the gas off 2 bases to make enough ghosts AND tanks that can deal with 10 fake immortals + bunch of real colossi and gateway units. All these hallucinates ever need to do is to tank the first few shots to give the real army a perfect surround. Then its like havign your army caught unsieged in the middle of an open field. Guess what its gg. The thing is you can't tell your siege tanks not to hit the fake ones, even you know they are just hallucinations, if you manually control them you'll ruin smart fire. The only good news is that most toss players think of hallucinations the way you do, ironically, and that is reason I still have sucess meching against toss on the ladder. If mech ever is to become popular, hallucinated immortals need to be fixed. Mark my words. I play mech at 3400 master level btw.
pretty sure you can't "ruin smart fire"
not saying that hallucinated immortals in front to soak up the first round can't work. It's just that even if you queue up targets the tanks will just smartfire within those targets and then additional ones when the queue is done.
Afaik they're just instant fire and therefore don't shoot stuff that isn't there.
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On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview You lost the first battle decisively, then the Toss just let you take an equal amount of bases and remax and massed pure immos which got owned because he engaged you in a choke. No one is saying mech doesn't work against opponents playing like retards.
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sorry double, delete please
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On March 09 2011 00:58 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 09:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Example 1 upon per request for replay. Protoss does not attack my entrenched position. He instead opts for a mass expo which I follow with so we both take our half the map. I get 3-2 upgrades with EMP max out, then I engage, Take out his army with some left overs, then I rerally to the protoss rally point and get a nice setup of siege tanks while my hellions roast the probes at his bases. This is a perfect example of how Warp In does shit to help defend vs a mech army even after we trade armies because my units are fully upgraded Tier 2.5 units that hard counter stalks/zeals. I didnt get as much harass into that game as i usually do because Shakuras is a bad setup for hellions. I have examples vs Phoenix Play, vs Collsi/Stalk aggression, and Warp prism play. If you would like to see my games vs those as well. You guys need to stop worrying about protoss taking the map, if they take the map you can do the same. Im not saying this is a perfect build by any means, its very hard you have to have great game sense, postioning and micro. But it is way better than bio in thew sense that I can actully play late game. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=194467#/replay_overview You lost the first battle decisively, then the Toss just let you take an equal amount of bases and remax and massed pure immos which got owned because he engaged you in a choke. No one is saying mech doesn't work against opponents playing like retards.
So after the first battle he had a 10 food advantage. Is that decisive? I disagree. If you notice I took my 4th with my intial attack, he didnt let me take it, theres nothing toss can really do to stop my third on that map either, because the cliff tanks are way to hard to take down for the toss. He engaged in that narrow spot because he wanted to get a vortex off when all my units were clumped, luckily I was able to get an emp off a second before the vortex could be cast.
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Since so many mech terrans complain that protosses go for a freebie-fast third vs mech, has anyone experimented with any SCV-cutting 2 base all in mech builds?
I know you can support 2 reactor and 4 tech lab factories off of 2 bases if you cut scv's, so if for some reason they didnt go for air units this might be a good attack timing. I'm still playing with it, but if they have no air and went for a fast third your sheer numbers can potentially overwhelm him . I'd like to see some terrans try this kind of 2 base attack.
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On March 09 2011 09:07 QQmonster wrote:
Since so many mech terrans complain that protosses go for a freebie-fast third vs mech, has anyone experimented with any SCV-cutting 2 base all in mech builds?
I know you can support 2 reactor and 4 tech lab factories off of 2 bases if you cut scv's, so if for some reason they didnt go for air units this might be a good attack timing. I'm still playing with it, but if they have no air and went for a fast third your sheer numbers can potentially overwhelm him . I'd like to see some terrans try this kind of 2 base attack.
...how do you have enough gas to have 4 tech lab factories running?
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EPT
