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On March 06 2011 05:47 GinDo wrote:
Like your guide. Nice to see people Trying to mech in TvP.
Ghosts are a big part of TvP because EMP counters units that counter Mech such as Archons and Immortals. People aren't willing these days to cut a Tank for a ghost these days. But if you think about it if you land an EMP its like a massive siege tank hit that knocks out all the shields.
I have finally concluded that their is only 1 weakness to mech that i can't seem to figure out and its how to prevent the Stalker Collosi Blink in base. Its pretty much impossible to defend against unless you move all your tanks in position with Vikings. And alot of times they can just Blink in and then Blink out.
When they do this with Observers its not an issue because a Turret with Range can prevent observer Spotting, but with Collosi i just don;t now how to defend this. Collosi Blink is just so mobile.
If this can be figured out i personally think mech can be viable.
Use planetary fortress to seal off weak points (ie. Cliffs). Trust me a 550/150 investment is literally next to nothing when you have 3+ bases. PFs buy you critical time to get a surround on the toss army and not to mention, make protoss trade army cost ineffectively.
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On March 05 2011 20:20 hi im new wrote:
i played vs mech 2 games in a row just now and was able to win very easily with blink stalker phoenix immortal
so tip for protosses who struggle against this: don't build colossi against mech, do build phoenixes to negate blue flame faggotry because just 3 or 4 helions can instantly win the game for the terran.
also they are quite good at lifting tanks and even if they die shortly thereafter, just negating a few tank and thor hits can be a huge deal considering immortals will plow through tanks in seconds once they actually get to them. obviously ghosts can be lifted as well.
Collosi are actually one of the better units to make vs mech, they are really good at cutting hellions, stopping hellions from running by, and they are good at focusing balled up tanks down in big confrontations.
I'd make an even mixture of collosi and immortals, and then tech to templar to feedback the ghosts.
The way you beat mech as protoss is to build up a huge robo/high templar composition that can at least bust through most of the terrans mech ball, and then you throw down like 20 warpgates lategame to instantly reinforce to take out the rest of his mech ball before he can reinforce it. "300 food push"
There's no secret way to beat mech, you just have to out econ him and play better, and attack from good angles.
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Late game the way you beat blink stalker play is by just base trading him. "Oh he has a bunch of weak stalkers running around and I have 25 tanks 2 ravens with full energy for 4 PDD's, 4 ghosts with full energy to EMP, and a bunch of vikings to snipe collosi? Kay, I'm just going to lift all my shit, float to the island and go kill his base since he maxed out on such a weak army."
Blink stalker play is strongest when you're trying to transition from 3 bases to 4 bases, because you havent gotten all your defenses completely in place yet. Wherever he decides to blink to you have to surround with tanks and make it so he has to commit his entire army or leave before doing any kind of huge damage. If he snipes your CC and gets away it means you didnt react fast enough or he's about to lose his entire army. Or it means he has a mothership and recalled away. Motherships are a whole different story though.
Sniping motherships with vikings isn't too hard when his entire army is off trying to kill your 4th or main base though.
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Mech is still not a good strategy to do too often imo.
It is good on certain maps and spawns when siege tanks can cover most lines of attack and it is good as a switch or against sentry heavy army. Using it all the time and on all maps is just bad though I think because there are so many problems with mech which on some maps are just too troublesome.
For example it can be hard to secure your natural with mech if it's too open especially if the map is small, i definately wouldn't recommend mech on xel naga caverns.
Overall I think that alot of protoss are still very uncomfortable to play against mech though, I know I am. Speedrays used to be the simple answer as without marines you simply couldn't beat them now I'm not really sure what the best answer is.
Opening with colossi/immortal while expoing alot and then switching into mass carrier is probably the best protoss strat against mech but I'm not sure. Perhaps are colossi not even worth it either as they get shot down quickly by tanks.
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i wonder, has jinro said why he didn't go mech in GSL? it's pretty hilarious actually how everyone was so excited about his mech...and then he goes MMM+viking+ghost, just like everyone else :/
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Griffith, great guide. As a protoss I really needed to see what the reasoning behind mech was because even though I face it from time to time, it doesn't feel like they are getting it right. As P I regularly go HT/Immortal against Terran, which is so strong vs bio. But the good players who use mech utterly decimate HT/Immortal, and it is really hard as Protoss to get the right unit comp to counter mech.
Not to mention after a battle when you are mineral heavy, you can't just warp in a big round of zealots because of the hellions; makes decisions harder and puts a burden on the Protoss player to plan better too.
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Me Bixs (im about the same level 2500 + 400 bonus) vs 3k master toss...
I win on Xel Naga
I play suboptimal to say the least, and protoss tries to adapt to the ghost+mech style..
At one point I attack with unseiged tanks, guess what?.. turns out they work better sieged! Who knew?!.. anyway.. thors are great!
He whines in the end, asking for advice on how to beat the unit mix. I replay I don't know which angers him... :S...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/146796-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
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I like the idea of having your tougher Thors tank the Tank splash (lol). Out of curiosity, do you get planetary fortresses at bases 3-5, or do you rely on your siege line to protect them and get more orbitals for mules/scans?
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so you are getting siege tanks out of the factory right? but siege mode comes delayed? I read the whole post but never saw what you did exactly out of the first tech lab factory, I assume it doesn't just sit there.
when does the 2nd factory come into play? Are you just sitting on 1 rax 1 factory for 12 minutes? I'm confused.
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TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed.
Honestly I just want my old tank stats back.
Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now.
Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
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On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote:
TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed.
Honestly I just want my old tank stats back.
Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now.
Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
what you suggest would completely break TvZ
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On March 06 2011 08:41 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote:
TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed.
Honestly I just want my old tank stats back.
Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now.
Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
what you suggest would completely break TvZ
How would it break TvZ? lol would barely affect the standard Ling/Bling Muta. I guess if Zerg went mass roach after +1 weapons he'd be screwed but then again when does mass roach actually succeed in TvZ?
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Guys lets not turn this into another balance discussion =D
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On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote:
TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed.
Honestly I just want my old tank stats back.
Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now.
Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
But but but youu...
Pro players have been saying this for a long time, mech does not work, yet, as a standard strategy. It works on lower levels cos Protoss players do not know how to abuse the lack of mobility. You can not attack either until you have 34875 tanks+upgrades or you get raped.
LZ said he plays some mech now and i'd love to see his replays at some point. Fact is, a lot of things can work in this game if the opponent does not know how to react but, that does not make a strategy good/ viable/ standard etc. Tanks have been over-nerfed. They were strong, yes, but they made up for the lack of mines. Fuck Marauders!
EDIT: Sorry Griffith (for the Tank focuss ). I like the Guide and i will try to incorporate more PFs. Good work
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I personally open 2 rax no gas into FE. mass marine.. bunker xpo.. when 3 tanks pop go to contain the P. then transition into tank/vikingmed/marine/turret bunker contain. 19-1 with it. lost on shakuras plateau to VVV time cross map.. failure to deny certain angles cost game or i win.
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This is the answer to high templar, please don't nerf them blizzard T_T
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On March 06 2011 09:33 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 08:38 Raiznhell wrote:
TvP used to be my best matchup going Mech but lately I've been getting creamed.
Honestly I just want my old tank stats back.
Regardless of the fire rate change for the Siege Tanks another thing to take into hand is the supply/cost and the fact that Siege Tanks in BW seemed to just kill thing almost instantly except Zealots whereas in SC2 it takes too many extra shots to kill ANYTHING plus the fact you have way less tanks.
I'd rather have a 150 hp 150 min 100 gas Siege tank with 35+35 vs armored for stats and have it get +5 per upgrade instead of 3+2 vs armored. Than have the cruddy Siege Tank we got now.
Compensate by nerfing or removing another Terran unit but god damn it I want the old tank back. That or give the hellion something spider mine worthy to keep crap away building bunkers and PF I find as i start to face better and better tosses just doesn't seem good enough to replace the spider mine.
I'm struggling with my Mech against 3k+ Diamonds and low Master Tosses I have no idea how the master league Terrans that do Mech are surviving.
But but but youu... Pro players have been saying this for a long time, mech does not work, yet, as a standard strategy. It works on lower levels cos Protoss players do not know how to abuse the lack of mobility. You can not attack either until you have 34875 tanks+upgrades or you get raped. LZ said he plays some mech now and i'd love to see his replays at some point. Fact is, a lot of things can work in this game if the opponent does not know how to react but, that does not make a strategy good/ viable/ standard etc. Tanks have been over-nerfed. They were strong, yes, but they made up for the lack of mines. Fuck Marauders! EDIT: Sorry Griffith (for the Tank focuss ). I like the Guide and i will try to incorporate more PFs. Good work
I'm telling you guys, if you put up PFs at your key choke points it becomes nearly fucking impossible for protoss to be "mobile" short of going carriers. I used to have this problem ALL the time when I played vs P that just went blink stalkers + colossi, I knew I could completely own the unit combo if only I could find a way to force a fight. By putting up PFs around the map, you make it really difficult for the protoss to engage anything without taking heavy losses.
oh, added some replays.
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... why would you post a rep vs me playing as toss when I've played 10 protoss games?
Might as well put the one before it where you died to a 10 gate 2 zeal rush? lol
Oh what people will do.
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On March 06 2011 10:07 iAmJeffReY wrote:
... why would you post a rep vs me playing as toss when I've played 10 protoss games?
Might as well put the one before it where you died to a 10 gate 2 zeal rush? lol
Oh what people will do.
Sorry i uploaded the wrong one lol I'll remove it
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EPT
