EPThttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140673-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140672-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
[D] TvP lategame think tank - Page 4
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140673-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140672-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On February 17 2011 16:08 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Would you rather drop 3 Thors or 12 Marauders? I'll take the Marauders every single time. There are so many advantages with dropping bio over mech. Namely, bio can maneuver inside a base and can chase running probes. Medivacs are already the natural companion to bio. It depends. I'd probably opt for neither and drop 8 Marauders and 1 Thor. Or if killing Probes is your priority, do 4 Marauders, 4 Blue Flame Helions, and 1 Thor. Mix and match as necessary. In a vacuum, you are correct that 12 Marauders would probably do more damage than 3 Thors. However, that isn't the issue at hand. The issue with Mech play is that it generally takes too long to build up which leads to overly defensive and/or passive play. The Toss ends up taking the map and you simply get crushed by his superior economy & production. Thus Thor drops, while generally not as effective as Bio drops, would allow you to be aggressive with a relatively small Mech force while you are transitioning to a larger Mech force. I think it's a reasonable suggestion when you consider that 4 Thors with Strike Cannons can snipe an expo in about 6 seconds. Even 16 stimmed Marauders can't match that, especially when you consider that Medivacs drop things one unit at a time. I don't think Warpgates even finish warping in units fast enough to stop that. The costs are comparable. The Thors would cost more Gas, but less minerals, less food, and less build time. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
I start out by building two factories one after another and making nothing but tanks along with Marines. This has generally always allowed me to make enough units to hold off 4 gates (probably even without having to build a bunker) and most other Protoss early aggresion. Once I get more tanks I expo, get upgrades, get more factories, and start getting Thors, Vikings and Hellions. Thors, Siege Tanks, Vikings and Hellions are the most important units for late game TvP. Thors and Siege Tanks basically take care of everything on the ground. Hellions kill zealots and HTs/Sentries (if the Protoss chooses to use them). Vikings Kill Colossus, Voids, and Carriers, which are the main threat to Mech. Typically you want to match these up in a way that counters your opponent's army best. I've also noticed that a lot of people choose to go purely Siege Tank + Viking + Hellion, where as others (like me) like to go part Tank part Thor or even pure Thor. I think all 3 options work quite honestly, but I'm more in favor of Thors personally, because they wreck everything that Tanks do (expect Colossus) AND can also provide nice air support at the same time. Some Replays attached if anyone is curious. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140685-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140683-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis 3k~ Diamond rating. | ||
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Pooka
United States140 Posts
On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote: From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning. HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild. I'm a ~2700 Master Terran who has lost a lot of games trying heavy Mech play against Protoss, and I feel like this is the biggest problem with Siege Tanks. Even though you will kill the initial army and your Tanks survive, your support for them will die in the battle, leaving the Tanks open for Zealots to charge in and clean up. Then there's a sizable window for Protoss to kill you while your Mech is rebuilding. Basically you can never advance your army forward because of this. Once High Templar and Colossus are in play, I feel like the only way to survive is to rely on units that have big HP and can take hits - Thors, Marauders, and sometimes Battlecruisers (but they are more situational). In addition, Ghosts become essential to winning battles at the end; they are Terran's only answer to Storm, and they can deal with the Immortals. If you can hit decent EMP's and keep your Ghosts alive, eventually you can win the war of attrition. I also feel like having a few Ravens goes a long way to negate some Stalker fire or even deal some instant damage with Seeker Missile. Again, keeping these alive is crucial because you don't have the gas to keep pumping them out. At times the late game feels impossible against Protoss, but I feel like it can be done with the right approach. I feel like this will be the most complex matchup as Starcraft 2 goes on, and it will be fun to watch it evolve. | ||
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Evantas
Singapore61 Posts
In TvZ at least it's a little more stable. Even marine-Baneling micro war IMO is More manageable than what happens in TvP, since most banelIngs die along with marines/vice vesa. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote: Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well. interesting, but how much of your army do you want to invest in the drop? | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
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marines2231
Australia14 Posts
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 17 2011 20:40 marines2231 wrote: I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this already but, have you ever tried using Ravens? 3-4 ravens to compliment your late-game army of the marauder/thor/viking/medivac. A few PDD can really give you a huge advantage because they soak up quite a bit of damage from stalkers which is the bulk of their ball. I'm only diamond league but many times battles are won with ravens for me. ravens cost huge amounts of gas (as much as a thor), can be feedbacked/sniped and stalkers are the smallest problem you have lategame. On February 17 2011 20:57 rolfe wrote: i'm neither masters (diamond) nor terran (protoss) but has any terran tried using lots of air late game? i can tell some positives and negatives but toss ground to air is not particularly good and with a reactored starport toss shouldn't be ever able to take control of the air. the flaws are obviously it forces templar as colossus won't work against vikings and can storm the bio and feedback cruisers and banshees... but it does seem like something that could work and i'm obviously somewhat thinking about the TLO White-Ra game on jungle basin about this. anyone tried it? banshees get just as hard countered by HT as bio. storm/feedback simply destroys em. yeah air heavy can work but its a midgame thing thats based on harrass. so absolutely nothing that helps tvp lategame. also you see more and more stargate play. phoenixes giggle when they see banshees. | ||
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Enigmoid
United States48 Posts
Remember, tech switching for terran is only as hard as lifting buildings onto other buildings. It doesn't cost a thing late game. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
What i have found playing mech is that this is hard . I was playing in Diamond hoping for masters promotion when i switched to mech and i almost fell in platinum. You have to relearn everything about you race. From timings to tactics ...playing mech is like playing a new Race. Point is, even if you are a top masters player (with bio), you will lose to much worse players when trying mech. This is due to the understanding/ experience required that simply put, takes time. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On February 17 2011 21:20 Sapphire.lux wrote: If you think tanks and general mech is bad just follow GoOdY. He plays pure mech (almost never makes a marine/ marauder from the 3-4 min mark onward)...in all MUs. He wins Craft Cups, he beats players like Adelscot, Soke, Dimaga, Kas,etc. What i have found playing mech is that this is hard . I was playing in Diamond hoping for masters promotion when i switched to mech and i almost fell in platinum. You have to relearn everything about you race. From timings to tactics ...playing mech is like playing a new Race. Point is, even if you are a top masters player (with bio), you will lose to much worse players when trying mech. This is due to the understanding/ experience required that simply put, takes time. Goody loses to much worse players when he does mech. His games only confirm my theory that trading 200/200 armies with Toss late game is a terrible idea. | ||
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DennyR
Germany379 Posts
Ok now the problem. You cant go mech FE(execpt 2Thorrush with strikecannon plus repair, but you lose to DT and is pretty allinish). You will just get ownd. Finding a way to expand and transition into mech safely is the key. Sadly I havent found one yet  Ok now lategame. Tanks are awesome, tanks win me the games. There are just a few things that counter masstanks wich will be Immortal(just if you have a low tankcount), Chargelots plus Storm and air units. But there are solutions for everything. Upgrades are essential! There is a ridiculous difference between mass tanks with and without upgrades. Mass tanks with upgrades basically deny the Protoss groundarmy. You wont have enough gas to produce mass mech and still keep your minerals low before you have 4-5 running bases. So ideally you dont want to build any gasheavy units besides the mechthings execpt very few ghosts and maybe 1 or 2 medivacs to drop. You will have a ton of overmins. A SHIT TON! The way you dump them decides if you win or lose the game. I figured out that hellions and marines are the wrong thing to go for. Blueflame hellions are great for lategamescouting and harassing but they are useless in fights if you have 10+. Marines are good to defend your faraway expos in bunkers. You will have a ton of mins so you can build 5 bunkers and get 1-2 marines in them each and they will never be able to kill them with a few units that run by your tankline. But dont get to many! You will need the supply in tanks/thors and maybe vikings to an lesser extend. The next thing you want to dump you minerals into are massexpos. Even if you lose them, you have the mins anyway, so why not going to take the whole map and make PFs? One thing you lose to is mobility. Dump your money in shit that prevents protoss from abusing you with blink, warpprisms and air units so build missile turrets!! You deny every attempt to bypass your tankline with them. I build them everywhere. The last thing you want to build are massbarracks. Not for marineproduction, but just to prevent the protoss army to reach your tanks and cause friendlyfire wich basically means heavy losses. I pretty happy with mech I have to say. It wins me more games than the stupid MMM lategame. so far... watch a 200supply tank army demolish an emp´d protoss army and make it disappear in 2seconds and you want to start going mech immediatly. | ||
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mytent
United States156 Posts
Probably because Protoss has mobile AOE big hitters, and the Terran only has the siege tank and the ghost. (And siege tanks are like fucking snails). So... what does that mean? You play to your strengths. In terran's case, that's maximum gimmicky play. Drops. Bunker Rushes. Cloaked Shees. Thor/BC rush with mass repair. Lategame? Mass drops. Mass Nukes ... I don't know =/ But mobiliity seems like Terran's only lategame advantage. Wow. And especially with the horribly huge maps incoming with GSL.... wow. I think we need an SC2's version of Boxer ASAP... Someone who can micro 4 simultaneous drops at once and harass the main army with almost-battles. | ||
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Brandus
148 Posts
On February 17 2011 21:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: banshees get just as hard countered by HT as bio. storm/feedback simply destroys em. yeah air heavy can work but its a midgame thing thats based on harrass. so absolutely nothing that helps tvp lategame. also you see more and more stargate play. phoenixes giggle when they see banshees. TLO recently took out white-ra with air play. He sniped all the observers with a small viking+raven force, and cloaked banshees demolished everything else. It's stupid to rule out a strategy because they can make phoenixes. Obviously if the protoss already has air dominance with phoenixes it wouldn't make sense to transition into banshee play. Just like if if the protoss was going void rays it wouldn't make sense to transition into mauraders. | ||
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SevenTwoOffSuit
United States14 Posts
On February 17 2011 14:26 Touch wrote: 3.5k Terran. Personally, I prefer an aggressive style, which doesn't compliment mech or heavy transitions. So in order to maintain a strong economy, I only expand with Orbitals, upgrade fast, and never cease dropping/expansion sniping/attacking. For me, I think the game is lost against Protoss once they become established with a solid army with equal bases. Late game TvP is really about abusing the immobility of HTs and Colossus, and keeping armies small to reduce their effectiveness. This. I am also a 3.5k terran player, and I've found aggressive bio strategies to be generally effective. MMM armies are extremely cost efficient in small numbers, while protoss is most dangerous when they reach a critical mass of high tech units and can move on the terran bases with a single cohesive army. I think a lot of people seem to think that bio balls should be able to stand toe to toe with a high tech protoss army, and that is simply not true with large supply counts. Even if terran can trade armies with the protoss, large numbers of warpgates and chrono boost means protoss will be able to replace his army faster than the terran. Bio strategies can be very effective, but the terran must be as aggressive as is humanly possible. Drops in multiple locations, tech sniping, and even small land armies roaming the map are essential. The idea is to keep the protoss on the defensive for as long as possible. Ideally, terran should be sufficiently ahead in resources from his aggression to be able to overwhelm the protoss with sheer weight of economy, but often a good protoss can stop even the best bio aggression without suffering too much damage. Often terran will be forced into a late-game confrontation, and in that case it is essential to know the exact unit composition of protoss. If he has more collossi, terran needs more vikings, if he has more templar, more mauraders/ghosts are needed. An underused tactic in late-game TvP is ghost cloaking. Cloaked ghosts can walk right up to the protoss army and EMP everything without risk of getting sniped, and EMP is absolutely essential for a bio army to have any chance of standing even with a late game protoss ball. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
Sorry, Mech is not the answer. Late game/Macro games are not the answer. The only answer is new 1-2 base timing attacks to end the game early. The problem with this is that it makes for a bad RTS and that GSL maps are huge which weakens Terran timing attacks (but allows Toss timing attacks). | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On February 17 2011 20:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote: tanks ff, so against a zealot heavy composition, why not put a few marauders out front to get charge surrounded like you do to absorb a moved banelings interesting, but how much of your army do you want to invest in the drop? Scrap the idea completely. Strike cannons look good on paper, but with their chargeup and chargedown time (iirc it's 2 sec to load up cannons, 6 seconds of firing and 2 seconds of putting them away) the dps is inferior to +1 or +2 att thors. We use the cannons because they stun collosi/immortals and bypass the hardened shields. A marauder drop will be superior any day. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 17 2011 21:32 link0 wrote: Goody loses to much worse players when he does mech. His games only confirm my theory that trading 200/200 armies with Toss late game is a terrible idea. You can arguably say the opposite is true as well. Soke, Adelscot are considered better players then him. That is not to say that Goody is playing mech perfectly or that he is the most talented player ever (i think he is very talented). SC2 is very ... volatile... compared to SC1. You can lose games to worse players no matter what race or stile you play. It might be because of "lack of knowledge" or/and just simple balance issues. I agree that losing 200/200 battles vs. Protoss (or any race when you go mech) is game ending. But you have to agree that good EMPs/ PDDs can win the fight very, very easy. I am more worried for the lack of "controlling" space options and back stabs then wining the big fights. | ||
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