|
On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball.
2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight.
3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership.
4. Their dps is amazing in any case.
5. They can control space, while Thors cannot.
|
On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot.
on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging.
on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers
and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them.
In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
|
On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
1) Charge is not the answer to Mech; it's utterly dumb in fact; large number of Blue Flame Helions instantly vaporize your Zealots
2) Tanks in big numbers basically kill everything out of the Gateway in large numbers. Anything. That includes those pesky Archons.
3) Watch Sadist game vs ChikaPrime and OptikZero where Archons, DTs, VRs, and a bunch of other "typical" mech counters show up and Sadist still wins. In fact, I don't think Sadist ever lost a single straight up fight; he lost when he got overwhelmed by reinforcements.
|
when u have 20+ tank, no protoss units can match with them, they basically destroy everything on the ground, but only in large number....critical number here is crucial.
|
On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
watch the replays I posted seriously.
|
Sadist how do you hold a 3 gate robo all in with this build? It seems that you simply don't have alot of troops if you do this. Something like an Immortal/Stalker/Sentry early all in would really hurt your opening.
|
On February 20 2011 05:17 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position. watch the replays I posted seriously.
Can't find the replays are they in the original post or somewhere else in this thread?
|
|
|
Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
|
On February 20 2011 10:44 SouLja wrote:Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
Well, i think i can this one, as also all my TvP are involving with alot of blue flame hellions.
A big deal of having blue flame hellions in ur army compostion is not just for dealing with zealots, its alot about harrasing.
On TvP hellion can kite anything, which means they r faster then any ground unit toss has, add their spalsh dmg and 24 dmg on light after upgrade and you get the cheapest deadliest haras unit u have on the game.
Which means - NOT harasing with them is a bad idea, not a "passive" play, u gotta haras with them.
If your first haras fails, then ur 2ed will, or u 3rd....
Toss will have to respond in few ways
1. Make cannons, and he'll need more then 1 = great sucsses for you, as he spent minerals on static defences, and less strength on his "deathball"
2. Keep atleast 3 stalkers on his minerals lines = Less stalkers on his deathball
Warping tech wont work cuz with 4 hellions u'll be able to kill so much probes with blue flame hellions, before warp even finish.
|
On February 20 2011 10:44 SouLja wrote:Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
I still end up winning, its obviously a little tougher. If they dont go phoenix youll eventually get in and kill probes anyway (same with phoenix really, itll just happen later).
Blue flame hellions dont let them just outright attack you because you just backdoor them if they come out. People havent been trying to 4 gate me so im not SUPER sure, something with a backdoor like delta would definitely needed to be walled off.
Besides blink stalker and phoenix nothing can stop you from running around with hellions.
|
One upgrade I rarely see people get is the Hi-Sec Auto Tracking. I use missile turrets to fill in a lot of holes in my defenses and often times while pushing out as well. Seems like a great upgrade considering many toss go stargate tech vs mech, the range even helps pick off the occasionally mismicrco'd observer too.
|
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs.
------------------------------------------ playd delta quadrant ... how can i harras ?!?! I had 4-6 herrions trying to do shit. 3 cannons at each base anihilate any atempt. Drops are excluded or very few - i need gas for tanks.
Going back to mobility and toss whine mmm is broken. GL HF !
|
On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs.
You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals.
|
On February 20 2011 13:58 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs. You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals.
You my friend have to write a guide. Just saw your replays. Really good stuff. Alot of things people have neglected such as hellions. Once you got that hellion cloud even stalkers melted. I think the issue is that people just wanna go Tank and win and forget how essential Hellions are.
I noted that as battle happened you would cut tank production in order to rally hellions to the battle and continue the push. Good stuff.
Mech by no means is easy and I think thats whats frustrating alot of people. Mech like in BW is hard.You need to harass, expand alot, and upgrades must be consistent.
And the Third base is so critical. More for the gas then the minerals. But really good stuff.
Note: For all you Bronzies hating on Sadist go play Protoss or something because this guy knows what he's talking about. Frikkin make Hellions people. Rather then qq saying it can't be done, play more learn it and win. And frikkin take this guys advice.
Sooner or later he's gonna get sick of defending mech and frikkin stop helping us.
TY Sadist.
|
On February 20 2011 14:16 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 13:58 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs. You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals. You my friend have to write a guide. Just saw your replays. Really good stuff. Alot of things people have neglected such as hellions. Once you got that hellion cloud even stalkers melted. I think the issue is that people just wanna go Tank and win and forget how essential Hellions are. I noted that as battle happened you would cut tank production in order to rally hellions to the battle and continue the push. Good stuff. Mech by no means is easy and I think thats whats frustrating alot of people. Mech like in BW is hard.You need to harass, expand alot, and upgrades must be consistent. And the Third base is so critical. More for the gas then the minerals. But really good stuff. Note: For all you Bronzies hating on Sadist go play Protoss or something because this guy knows what he's talking about. Frikkin make Hellions people. Rather then qq saying it can't be done, play more learn it and win. And frikkin take this guys advice. Sooner or later he's gonna get sick of defending mech and frikkin stop helping us. TY Sadist.
Good post you hit a key point here, the importance of the 3rd when playing mech, thats my only difficulty I have now that I have switched to mech, my gamesa re dependant on if I can get my third or not, if I can get my third I will definately get my macro up to easily reach a critcial mass of hellion/tank. However if I cant ge tmy third then I end up having a very hard time
|
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
|
On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I feel like it helps defend and discourage people from trying to rush me with a stalker or zealot or something. Also the conc traps them if they try to attack my bunker or something. I partly posted the replays for reasons like this, id like to solidify the build and make it as efficient and safe as possible.
|
On February 20 2011 15:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I feel like it helps defend and discourage people from trying to rush me with a stalker or zealot or something. Also the conc traps them if they try to attack my bunker or something. I partly posted the replays for reasons like this, id like to solidify the build and make it as efficient and safe as possible.
Ah well Ive been opening up with either
A 1 fact expo(Easy to def natural maps such as LT)
or a two fact expo(Sjow style maps like Xel, this build can actully also pressure a 1 gate FE much like a fake double in BW)
Both expand around 30 and transition into pure mech very well.
As regards to the 2nd armory, I think it should be built the second you get your third saturated. Armor upgrades are so nice for mech, espcially on your hellion harasses, with +2 armor hells I can really last a long time and get so many probe kills its just dumb.
Also I think sensors towers are also a major buff to this build that you shoudl try out. Plus my bunk walls are a great addition once your economy is up. Check out page 7 if you havent for my sample setup.
|
I have trouble ending the game with pure mech (around 4 or more bases). Even though I can kill P's army easily, I can't deal the finishing blow to end the game. Hellions don't do anything to buildings, good building placements stop any poking. Tanks are just so immobile when killing bases, requiring a lot of patience leap frogging the tanks while P has 2 warp prisms having constant Ht drops at my bases. I recently lost to a mass VR switch (he hid them and I couldn't tech switch fast enough). So I was wondering if tech switch to banshees/BCs would be good very late game, as they'll be very mobile and easier to finish the game than pure mech can. Btw, I copied Sadist's bo and it's very good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
