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On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I'm guessing that since Bio is the commonality these days. This makes people think your gonna play bio. Thus keeping your strategy up in the air. It is also safer against stalker pokes. and can mildly pressure 14 Nex.
As for armory- Sadist i noticed the 3 factories with Tech labs off of 2 bases. Ive noted that with 2 factories you can still have enough gas for double Ups.
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BC's are the best
24 bcs + 20 viking + 6 ghost = invincible army ^^
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I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots.
So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port.
The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily.
Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed.
I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town  .
As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees.
tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration
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On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration
Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp?
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On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp?
It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy.
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On February 21 2011 00:18 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp? It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy.
when do you get ur xport?
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On February 21 2011 00:20 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2011 00:18 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp? It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy. when do you get ur xport?
As soon as you can after blue flame research has started.
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I just found a way for protoss to attack in to tank helion for up to 80 supply of army (didn't test any further) and come out way ahead (3-5 colli + a few immortals). I do not think mech is viable.
Try this in unit test map or wherever. Zealot stalker sentry in standard amounts you'd see in game, hallucinate researched, immortal (about 3-5) colli (about 3-5). Hallucinate as many immortals as you can, a 1:1 ratio is just fine though. Spread out your units so you're not clumped up and put hallucinated immortals at the front. As long as you don't clump up too much, you should be able to roll the terran mech army and come out way ahead. Worst case scenario is your ground gets rolled in which case you can pull out colli. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have 3-5 immortals and 3-5 colli if the terran will have 15+ tanks.
I guess terran could emp in which case protoss would get rolled by the mech.
That is all.
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Just tried mech vs protoss and i have to say that something like jinro did vs mc is very viable, only trouble i can foresee is having less than the critical number of tanks in the mid game and possibly not getting enough vikings to deal with phoenix or VR. Although with some bunker turtling etc i think it can be achieved and im definitely going to use it now instead of mid-late game bio crap
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MMM+Thors rock. Ghosts are fantastic, though I'm a bit lazy about them :/
Since macroing MMM+Thors isn't too hard, I kinda look past the Ghosts, though I should build them more often, especially vs Templars..
Thors also work pretty well vs Sentries and FFs in the late game. Don't need to worry about getting your army cut in half and losing it.
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
get a few ghosts out and emp your Battlecruisers before an engagement, saw painuser do this against kiwi thought it was brilliant.
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EPT
