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Introduction:
The lategame of TvP has been somewhat of a hot topic lately. When Artosis and Idra made an episode in "you-know-what" on early TvP, they were bombarded with questions about lategame where terrans often feel less comfortable. We havent really seen defined strategies pop up in the pro scene, as most games still are quite short, except for rare occasions like IMMVP vs squirtle. With new maps times are changing, so I thought of making a more general discussion thread for the lategame TvP woes, where people can share their strategies and general "gameplan" when they enter lategame against a protoss.
Probably the most common problem is people sticking with bio/medivac/viking and eventually dying to protoss AOE. There are always people giving vague advice like "just go mech", "thors" or "go banshee/BC". I'm not going to say any of these are bad options, but effectively transitioning into such things can be hard. Its alot more help if you describe your plan in more detail: how many unit production structures you make, when you attack, what strengths/weaknesses you feel your build has, what to watch out for and so on.
My own findings:
I'm a 3200 masters terran myself. I like to make devise my own unit comps, and lately I've been deliberately a bit more passive against protoss just so that I could get a better feel of our lategame options. I used to go bio all game long, but I feel like it hits a wall at a certain point in the game and just stops being effective.
At the same time I think that the early game strengths of the bioball are too good to pass up, so my goal has been to keep doing that but to have a lategame as well. I've felt that banshees and BC's take both too long to build and are very easily dispatched by stalker/HT, so I didnt want to rely on them either. That means my lategame would have to rely on mech.
My first thought was to make a heavy biotank composition. It seemed to make alot of sense as tanks make a ton of DPS against a tightly clumped protoss deathball. However, I noticed the only times I won were when 1) I had plenty of time to position my tanks/units and 2) it was before the big zealot-heavy army (4-5 bases, excess minerals all spent on zealots). After seeing my own army get ambushed and my bio get blown up by my own tanks, I realized it wasnt working. Thanks to zealots, I feel like tanks do not mix with bio very well: they are better left for a pure mech build, where friendly fire is less of an issue and hellions help dealing with them.
So it was up to thors to save my sorry ass. And to my suprise, they worked pretty damn well. One of the biggest problems of the bioball is how quickly everything dies. Tanks are really no exception to this, as they are only a little more durable than a marauder. Thors on the other hand are just awesome. Its a great feeling when your army can actually go head to head against the mighty deathball with thors soaking up the hits. Thors also negate forcefields, which really help your marauders get more shots in.
In a very rough sketch, but what I'm currently aiming for at 3 bases is something like a 7/2/2 for production facilities. The army consists of marauder/thor/medivac/viking/ghost. I usually do not start thor production until my 3rd is up, up to that point its best to focus on aggression with the regular bio army.
Ghosts are absolutely essential, such a great unit. Even if you feel like you can eat a storm or two, you dont want to unless you absolutely have no choice. Always scan ahead when moving, EMP everything before or right as you engage and hope that more templars arent on the way.
With thors you wanna keep each and every thor alive. If you see a battle is about to go horribly wrong, you might wanna consider picking up thors with your medivacs and taking them to safety. Marauders are for the most part disposable, but thors are too expensive to let go. They seem to work much better in greater numbers as well.
Imo marines are not worth it lategame. I always felt that marines were necessary because of their DPS, but stimmed marines often die to the first storm even if you micro them out asap. They are just too much of a liability. Now I let a starport use that early reactor instead.
However as this is not meant as a guide, nor is it defined enough to become one, I'll just stop here and hope this sparks some conversation. Do post your own opinions/findings and show everyone else what works for you, even if its a mech build from the first unit, doesnt matter.
If you just feel like I'm a noob who needs to be told, correct me, I dont mind. I felt like I needed to start with something, but I made this thread as an opportunity to learn from others, not to show off my own gameplan. The purpose of this thread is just to share our ideas on how to be effective against protoss in longer games, so that maybe we can all do a bit better against them.
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3000 masters T and more or less same situation as you. The "go mech" answers really piss me off to say the least. Not even the best terrans have found a solid way of playing mech. Like you, I've tried tanks and it only worked in scenarios where P for unexplainable reasons went stalker heavy instead of zealot heavy - a scenario where bio would do fine as well.
I've tried a mass thor strategy that has worked out decently. Never, ever have I added ghosts to thors though - can you really support a composition so gas heavy?
And I feel the same about marines. Absolutely worthless. If you stim out of a storm most will be red hp anyways and unable to stim/die to next hit. If he's collosus heavy each marine will get off one shot at best.
How do you feel about strike cannons?
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Speaking as a 2400 Diamond T, I think that EmilA is on the right track, minus one thing - banshees. Back at MLG Dallas, PainUser had some really sick games against Tyler (particularly, his final match on Kulas Ravine), where he made a very smooth transition from a Bio early-midgame to a Thor/Banshee/Viking lategame.
I can't seem to find a link to the exact replays, but there's a link to the replay packs:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167059
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I think you have the right idea. I havent had enough sucess with tanks to keep building them in TvP. Also, marine just die too quick to be useful. Whenever I go thor I try and get the +1 armor on them making them pretty beefy. I guess you could go strike cannon but i have had difficulty gettin in range of the collossus. But if you do get the strike cannon you can pretty much roam around with 4 thorship and snipe nexus wich is a thing to think about.
Overall I think this is pretty gas heavy but if you can get enough of the green stuff this is the composition to go.
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Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades.
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I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation.
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3K Diamond Random player here, so a bit below you guys, but I agree completely with Bio being unviable late-game against Protoss, with Amulet Templar so prolific. Marauders work much better than Marines but are less effective against the Zealots that make up a large part of that late-game compositions (soooo many minerals).
Thors have worked extremely well for me in the late game, but the composition still need something to take care of the huge Zealot numbers you see in a late-game macro TvP. Since you can't dump minerals into Marines (unless you want to waste your extra minerals), I've found Hellions work very well here, especially if you've been upgrading your Mech.
Haven't considered using Ghosts in this composition, sounds like a good idea to mitigate Templar damage since you'll still be using Marauders.
And I only like strike cannons if the Protoss' response is to get a ton of Immortals, which will wreck Thors unless you can get them to clump up for an EMP OR hit them with strike cannons.
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I've been experimenting (read: losing ladder points) with Hellion/Thor/Viking mix. I probably should have added in ghosts because there is no reason not to, but it always slips my mind, so I will probably start testing that as well. The biggest problems I have come across are a kind of sloppy early game where I don't want to invest too much into rax, but the first thor comes out pretty damn late, so maybe tanks are a needed stepping stone and that if I miscalculate how many vikings I need I get rolled by either the colossus portion or the immortal portion of their army, which they make more of when they see mech. Just seems really finicky to say the least. Ghosts might help make it flow better with the vikings since they really help against the immortals, but I will have to try it. The only thing I don't like with mech is that their 200 army still seems a wee bit stronger (though that may be a problem due to my mechanics or something) and they can get it faster with a faster third against mech (barring any hero hellions). Anyone have any luck with tank heavier compositions?
Also, what are the thoughts on banshees? There are so many pros and cons there that it is a bit strange. Pros being more DPS than vikings, light armor (less damage from stalkers), beat stalkers 1v1, can be cloaked, and (can) force more stalkers, which are bad against mech generally speaking. The cons however are: light armor (phoenix are showing up now more than they used too. I used to think the thors AA would kill the phoenix off first, but I am not sure if I want to gamble with my thors firing up first and hoping my banshee live long enough to kill the colossus), vulnerable to feedback, more expensive than vikings, can not be reactored. They are a good unit no doubt, but is it what we need here?
3k Masters Terran
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2.2k masters terran, I havent really tried mech vs protoss because i m bad enough in that MU without having to lose to them for free. One thing about seige tanks is that even though they really suck against zlots and immortals, at least once you hit +3 attack they are much better vs zlots (+9 dmg vs +3 armor for zlots not to mention shields would have to be +3 as well.)
I think this is the train of thought for MVP vs Squirtle. are thors really any better than tanks once you hit +3, certainly they are more beefy and can hit air (sorta) but a huge mass of tanks plus blue flame hellion support (+ drops?) might be good.
My point being that maybe tanks are better than thors if you are going to be using mech, once you hit +3 attack. They can prevent harrass plus protoss love to hvae that death(ball) easy splash but yes less mobile somewhat. thoughts?
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On February 17 2011 10:20 EmilA wrote:
I've tried a mass thor strategy that has worked out decently. Never, ever have I added ghosts to thors though - can you really support a composition so gas heavy?
Well my plan isnt so much to go mass thor as it is to go mass marauder with thor support. Marauders are the closest thing I've had for a mineral sink, not perfect but I think they have more use than hellions. This leaves a little gas for ghosts, but the good thing is that you dont need many, 3-4 is enough and even 1-2 can make a huge difference. I also dont dip into thors until I got 3 bases exactly because of gas.
How do you feel about strike cannons?
Can be useful in smaller skirmishes against immortals, but even then EMP makes them kinda pointless. Impossible to catch colossi with them, but I guess thats what vikings are for.
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On February 17 2011 10:53 SheerStress wrote:
2.2k masters terran, I havent really tried mech vs protoss because i m bad enough in that MU without having to lose to them for free. One thing about seige tanks is that even though they really suck against zlots and immortals, at least once you hit +3 attack they are much better vs zlots (+9 dmg vs +3 armor for zlots not to mention shields would have to be +3 as well.)
I think this is the train of thought for MVP vs Squirtle. are thors really any better than tanks once you hit +3, certainly they are more beefy and can hit air (sorta) but a huge mass of tanks plus blue flame hellion support (+ drops?) might be good.
My point being that maybe tanks are better than thors if you are going to be using mech, once you hit +3 attack. They can prevent harrass plus protoss love to hvae that death(ball) easy splash but yes less mobile somewhat. thoughts?
the problem with tanks is that they have horrible raw dps, the real dps comes from splash. this is bad because zealot charge is a natural spreading mechanism which makes the tanks deal less than optimal damage. thors dont suffer from this kind of drawback. additionally, charging zealots mean that tanks will damage your own troops. and tanks can get caught out of position.
i personally am convinced that thors should be the backbone of a lategame tvp army. thor/ghost melts gateway units incredibly quickly. but i think marauders are too gasheavy in an army that requires thors, ghosts and vikings. they are probably good in the early- and midgame, but imho they should gradually be replaced by hellions later in the game.
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The problem right now for top tier TvP players is for the Teran to somehow figure out how to safely transition from bioball into mech without the protoss crushing them or getting way too ahead expansionwise. It is too gas heavy to do so on 2 mining bases, but while the Terran is going for the 3rd the Protoss has the upper-hand since the Terran is either lower on barracks(because of the planned transition to factories) or not very mobile due to tanks. The protoss army will be mobile at this whole time. It also seems to be easier to shut-down Terran harassment by protoss players because of sentry shield/cannons(which can shoot air and ground both).
Even bioball/ghost mech when done right on a macro map (See IMMVP VS Squirtle on the GSTL), the protoss late game composition is still very hard to beat when the protoss uses something like Mothership (which they have plenty of time to get vs meching Terrans) and especially the Vortex spell, which negates almost all of the immobile Terran army for a short time.
Not saying it can't be done but it is very hard to do the transition strategy as compared to just bioball ghost vikings.
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I agree with the sentiments on Helion thor. Thors defeat collosi, soak storms, and are good tankers AND dps dealers, while helions rip through the only thing that gives them trouble: Chargelots.
The only think you would really have to worry about is void rays... Vikings to deal with them (flybys of army with vikings 9 range to snipe rays) and collosus is probably the answer to that.
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Main problems I see as a Terran are that HT's and Colossi severely limit your unit options.
Bio (except for Ghosts) is out of the question at that point, as they are little more than cannon fodder.
Anything with an Energy bar (other than Ghosts) will be owned easily by Feedback.
This pretty much limits you to:
Ghosts
Vikings
Helions
Tanks
Thors
Tanks are probably too immobile for a late game army. So I'd probably go with Thor/Helion/Vikings/Ghost.
EMP (duh!)
Strike Cannon any Immortals
Vikings focus Colossi
Maybe even drop a nuke somewhere to screw with him. It would be especially evil to drop one near his closest pylon...
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I want to be the troll here and say, "Oh really, it's been a year and Terran finally have developed a strategy other than massing Tier 1 all game in every match up?".
Instead I will just say from a Protoss prospective, I am not really scared of tanks. I feel like the only thing Terran has an advantage of against Protoss late game is their mobility/drops/ability to snipe tech. By going tank you give that advantage to Protoss, and still leave with them the tools to kill your mech. Void ray/immortal/zealot or something of the sort depending on how Terran builds crushes mech pretty handily. 3 armor zealot bombs are also pretty funny.
I dunno. I feel like bringing some tanks is important, but I think air is really where Terran will end up going against Protoss.
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Its just a wild guess, but isn't this build a little too fragile against Protoss air? I mean, sure the vikings are a great help, but some VR with a Stalker or HT support can still make a huge damage to a mass marauder army. Even Carrier can become some sort of problem actually, if the Protoss player manage to snipe some vikings/ghosts;
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It's so true that tanks suck in TvP, as a Protoss they're so easy to get rid of. Honestly, the only thing they're good against are Stalkers, maybe Collosus, but that's it. You're better off going Thor/Helion/Marauder, although I do feel 1 or 2 tanks in an army is good to poke a Protoss and force an engagement at an unfavorable angle.
Iono I think the advantage of Bio > Gateway units could buy enough time for one to switch to mech, but it'd have to be done at the right time. 'Cause once the Protoss techs up, he'll move out and apply pressure or expand. But until that moment, Terran has all the early game map control with stimmed bio.
I think it's becoming clear that late game bio dies too easily, and since BCs are bad now and susceptible to feedback, ghost//mech// has got to be the way to go.
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the unit composition id suggest is thor/2-5 ghosts/hellion/viking. the idea behind this composition is the following: the protoss army only has 2 units which act as "real" antiair: stalkers and phoenixes. phoenixes are no options against a thorheavy army, so stalkers are the only thing protecting his colossi from the vikings. (if he doesnt have colossi he will probably get destroyed as thor/hellion easily resists storms and hellions are good at suiciding to snipe hts. thors absolutely roflstomp pure gateway that was emp´d.)
so to sum it up: assuming the majority of his ball has been emp´d,
- thors shut down any phoenix play
- thor/hellion forces colossi; templar/gateway alone doesnt cut it
- thor + emp + hellions deal with the charging zealots in no time
- thor + emp makes quick work of stalkers
- without stalkers or phoenixes, the vikings can take out the colossi
ofc things will still go badly if he can use a critical mass of colossi in conjunction with storms, so even this army composition will rely on preventing at least some storms by good emp.
also note that emp prevent mass immortal play aswell as mothership vortex archon toilet shenanigans.
edit: note how i suggest to skip marauders in favor of hellions. this balances the mineral/gas ratio a bit more than going for (either tank or thor)/marauder/ghost/viking. 
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On February 17 2011 11:13 ImmortalTofu wrote:
Thors defeat collosi
This was pretty funny. Thors in low numbers can beat colossi, but honestly that rarely happens. More often you'll get a semi-turtle protoss who will not move out unless you screw up early, and them moves out off of 3 bases (2 on some maps) with 6-8 collo + (immortal or void vs. mech armor) + zealots where the zealots and X support keep the thors out of range while one volley of that many collos murder the thor line. More often its vikings that beat colossi, its only the thors when the gateway units get rolled under whatever circumstances.
On Februaru 17 2011 11:14 Fadestep wrote:
I want to be the troll here and say, "Oh really, it's been a year and Terran finally have developed a strategy other than massing Tier 1 all game in every match up?".
Instead I will just say from a Protoss prospective, I am not really scared of tanks. I feel like the only thing Terran has an advantage of against Protoss late game is their mobility/drops/ability to snipe tech. By going tank you give that advantage to Protoss, and still leave with them the tools to kill your mech. Void ray/immortal/zealot or something of the sort depending on how Terran builds crushes mech pretty handily. 3 armor zealot bombs are also pretty funny.
I dunno. I feel like bringing some tanks is important, but I think air is really where Terran will end up going against Protoss.
You don't want to be the troll? You already play protoss, might as well go all out.
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2800 Master Terran. I agree the difficulty is in the transition. anytime i attempt to start a game with mech/port play without the bio first i get rocked. but transitioning into mech with all the gas it implies is so hard when when toss already has the infrastructure for storm they need in gates.
i haven't found hellions that viable unfortunately. i'm thinking about just mass expoing with my mins and hope some of them stay alive long enough to get the gas i need to keep up.
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On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation.
How often have you tried going mech in TvP?
Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases.
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Going Mech requires you to do some seriously good Helion harass and great Dropship harass with Helions.
In fact, to play Mech in BW you had to Vulture harass and keep Protoss economy in check; it's not something that was really easy to do at all.
Warp-in is strong against Mech, but I think people aren't using Helions and Helion drops very well when they mech, instead they think that they should turtle to 200/200 and try and roll the P army when that obviously never worked in the first place even in BW.
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Very often when I've seen a Terran go late game 200/200 tanks against a protoss, the mech ball will usually win one fight but as the OP puts it...15+ warpgate zealot wave straight after usually cleans up your now "less than critical mass" tank line. Unless of course, you somehow managed to lose no tanks in the big engagement...
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Do Thors target Collosi as Air Or Ground? Cause air has longer range right...
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On February 17 2011 12:01 Aruni wrote:
Do Thors target Collosi as Air Or Ground? Cause air has longer range right...
ground. so they dont outrange colossi.
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2750 terran masters.
I open with marine/banshee/raven and will add viking/BCs in the lategame. I'll continually add more starports (e.g. 1-1-5). My army composition will depend on what the protoss builds:
- HTs: I go BCs, and they perform reasonably well against HT/stalker in conjunction with ravens.
- Stalker/colossus: Heavy banshees.
- Phoenix: Make enough vikings to counter them.
I play similarly to Synystyr (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190) with the difference being that I'm more defensive.
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Bio is becoming weak due to the tosses learning how to fend off early bio pressure till they get the dreaded Collossi or High Templar Tech. Vikings usually did the job against Collossi but now Phoenixes or Void Rays are being added to the mix.
It's no wonder Terrans are having to start thinking about late game options. With the introduction of bigger maps, I personally feel Terrans are going to have a hard time late game and well, let's face it, Terran's strength really does lie in the early game especially with Bio-based play. Even reading the map analysis of Terminus RE on GOM website pretty much admits that Terran's are gonna have to come up with something to stop the Zerg and Protoss to macro up and/or meet them head on in a macro game.+ Show Spoiler +
MVP vs Squirtle could be taken as one of the current references as to the kind of shift the TvP match up is heading where we saw a lot of Mech and very little Bio. Protoss promptly responds with Immortals, Zealots, Void Rays, High Templars and even a Mothership. Squirtle unlike MC vs Jinro did not opt to go for Carriers that game to beat the Mech play, probably because of the Viking threat but Carriers are also an option against Mech for Toss I think.
I feel that Ghost play will become more important in the future and not just for EMPs but also for some double pronged or triple pronged nuking. ( TLO vs Hyperdub style ) Still this is pretty much shut down by the multiple Cannons at every Protoss expo. And while Tanks get owned by Immortals, Chargelots, Void Rays and even storms, Siege mode is very very annoying against a Protoss who doesn't know how to deal with the tanks, so totally forfeiting them in the unit composition might not be the way.
Problem is, whilethe Protoss have found ways to use the Mothership, Carriers etc, the Terran units called the Battlecruiser, the long forgotten Reapers haven't found their Niche in the Terran army yet. Oh and are there any uses for the Raven aside from the PDD in TvP yet? Hunter Seeker Missile and turrets of any use?
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On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation.
Idk the Hellion/Tank/viking maybe 1-2 ghosts is pretty powerful IMHO if macro'd well can stop anything and tosses have been playing against bio so much that they havent dealth with mech play which means they are trying to figure out what to do
and lets not forget IMMVP vs squirtle where he made a smooth transition into siege tanks and although he lost he showed that it was possible to have that
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An acceptable mass of mech unit takes several minutes to get. Getting there requires you allocating at least 600 gas for facs/ups, and a lot more for the units themselves. Combine that with the build times, pumping marauders/medivacs/whatever-else-you-need....you probably need to spend at least 10 minutes before you can start using mech. And there still is no guarantee that your army will come out on top.
There is no safe way to go straight to mech, where the cost/payoff ratio of getting mech is more acceptable. But even then, toss still has so many options if a terran does successfully open mech..
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this is an awesome thread, ill be watching it closely as my win rate tvp is so very very low and i also find colossi + storm to be the end of the game.
im wondering why the battle cruiser is never mentioned, is it because of the void ray buff or templar or both?
would it be possible to match colossi numbers with battle cruisers and force an engage before storm came out? it might force your opponent to go stalker heavy which would increase the effectiveness of marauders. if anyones tried anything like this i would be very interested.
It seems like if they are bringing 2 types of tier 3 to the table, we should at least explore all of ours.
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I am around 2600 master league terran. I have had a hard time TvP lategame for a long time. If protoss gets both storm and collosis or even storm and immortals i lose most of the time.
An army composition I would like to try is:
marauder, battlecruisers, medivac
The idea would be to put a solid dent in the protoss army with 8+ battle cruisers in front of marauders and medivacs. Protoss is forced then to build many stalkers as they replenish their army. You can use yamoto cannons to 1 shot any voidrays or to try to take out collosis.
Once both armies are small and rebuilding, reinforce your army with marauders and medivacs (maby some ghosts). This way you hopefully do some damage to his economy with drops before his deathball gets too big again.
You can switch between a battle cruiser heavy and MM heavy perhaps reinforcing your army with Battle cruisers again once his collosis count gets high.
:O Jayzo i see u were thinking the same thing. I hope it works how i think it will. Should be better than just keeping with marauder mevivac viking ghost. I never thought of getting them before storm. Ill try to test it out and post how it goes.
Anyone think this has much potential>?
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Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
chargelots?
also i was mentioning battlecruisers before storm, after i guess they can be fed back, but if the templar energy isnt being used for that, its storming your bio so im not sure its that bad. maybe u could enter a fight with yamato cannons, making the feedback not as bad.
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Battlecruisers are great vs Protoss, but like all the other mech/gas heavy options mentioned already, the problem is surviving until that point, because any Protoss user that sees a teching Terran will immediately respond by mass expoing or attack. Protoss will always have great info on Terran as well.
Basically we need a safe build that allows transitions to and 3rd base gas and then mass thor or BC support or whatever. The key is to somehow get a 3rd base and then being able to afford all the late game gas/mineral intensive stuff.
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Chargelots melt to thors even if they get a perfect surround. Remember to get 3 armour as fast as you can.
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3.5k Terran. Personally, I prefer an aggressive style, which doesn't compliment mech or heavy transitions. So in order to maintain a strong economy, I only expand with Orbitals, upgrade fast, and never cease dropping/expansion sniping/attacking. For me, I think the game is lost against Protoss once they become established with a solid army with equal bases. Late game TvP is really about abusing the immobility of HTs and Colossus, and keeping armies small to reduce their effectiveness.
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On February 17 2011 14:17 chenchen wrote:
Chargelots melt to thors even if they get a perfect surround. Remember to get 3 armour as fast as you can.
I think the reasoning is that Thor's dps is pretty sick even if its targeting zealots. I had a game recently in which the Terran went primarily mech with marines to support, and the dps of about 4 Thors could bring down my zealots pretty fast. Not saying that I lost only because the Thors are fantastic against Protoss, I think that they could use some examination for lategame.
Of course, they do have some downsides (like fighting Immortals) but they could have a shot.
Of the air tech, I think only Banshees and Ravens will really warrant being used endgame - Battlecruisers are really vulnerable to feedback AND blink Stalkers, while Banshees and Ravens can keep their energy lower while providing their own benefits to the army.
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I'm still convinced that there's no cost- and time-effective mech equivalent to straight marauders+medivacs and vikings. More than anything it's the fact that tanks and thors take FOREVER to build.
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks...
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I found what works semi-decently is that on two base, I like to go Bio + reactor Viking + Banshee and getting a third to add on thors seems like a good idea.
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Banshee Thor is definitely the way I think it's meant to go. It's just hard to do that. Synystr's build 2 rax FE into 4 SP I think allows for heavy banshee and thor, the only problem is you're open to 4 gates and timing pushes. I think if you open gas rax rax instead of 2 rax no gas and simply pull workers off gas it makes the protoss think "normal, back to my X" as it's impossible to hold XNC with such a wide natural on short bio.
Mech is definitely viable. A build I've seen and need to work on is 1/1 FE into 3/3 and then closer to like 5-6 fact and 1-2 SP on 3 base. Marine hellion tank into hellion tank thor viking, with some marines but they aren't as vital mostly for killing VR possibly ghosts if you see mass immortals.
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I feel mech is fairly weak because it takes so long to build the army and it's hard to transition into it during the mid-game when colossus are coming out where you'll inevitably be weak at certain times.
I'm messing around currently with the normal bio play by cutting 2~ rax out of a normal terran's bio midgame and adding a reactored factory for blue flame hellions. I feel the addition of blue flame hellions into a normal bio army is quite strong if only because they are super good at what they do - killing light units (like sniping high temps/roasting probe lines), and they don't require upgrades to be good. At the same time, if a critical mass of colossus get out to the point where a bio army cannot even touch them, then I think the transition lies in starport units, not mech - mech requires upgrades and starport units (banshees) are still really good without upgrades (disregarding BCs, which need upgrades, imo), and they are also extremely mobile.
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I think may be the answers is that we cannot do a battle of equal supply in TVP.
We play sc2 with some of the sc1 idea that terran should beat other race with equal supply. May be this is not the case in SC2.
I start to think that terran might have to play like inferior race (not in term of game balance but in term of unit strength). May be we can compare terran in sc2 as protoss in sc.bw in a way that we should avoid direct engagement and stay defensive until we got highest tier unit out( such as battle or thor).
In the end, there will be another 2 expansions so I think any strategy that we develop today will be almost useless after. Imagine trying to balance the sc1 with out broodwar, it would be funny isn't it, zerg with out lurker or terran with no medic.
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On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks.
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Goody has a decent mech style tvp play. you see alot of other terrans adding tanks in slowly after a few racks/starports are up but I really think terran needs to transition mech a lot sooner.
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hellions are amazing, thors are amazing, tanks are horrible. i think mech would be perfect if there was some way to get rid of all the stalkers and immortals. i wonder if anyone has ever played with unsieged tanks? mobile mech? lol
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On February 17 2011 15:18 Jayzo wrote:
hellions are amazing, thors are amazing, tanks are horrible. i think mech would be perfect if there was some way to get rid of all the stalkers and immortals. i wonder if anyone has ever played with unsieged tanks? mobile mech? lol
They're called marauders
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On February 17 2011 15:13 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote:On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks.
This is so true. The mech army is the worlds most immobile force and needs to be practical impossible to kill. You beat it by out macroing with more bases slowly chipping at it and by abusing its mobility. Not 1a into the mech.
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On February 17 2011 15:21 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:18 Jayzo wrote:
hellions are amazing, thors are amazing, tanks are horrible. i think mech would be perfect if there was some way to get rid of all the stalkers and immortals. i wonder if anyone has ever played with unsieged tanks? mobile mech? lol They're called marauders
Maruaders have to be the worst thing to happen to terran. I play terran and i h8 the maruader. Its flipping boring and makes the game boring.
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On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks...
Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well.
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3200 masters Terran. The only thing I've found working is a fast expo into a 3rd with some early pressure. You NEED that 3rd up to fight a protoss on two base. Allowing them to setup on two base vs two base means you're screwed. They'll just turtle and have an easier time taking expos around the map.
Timing is probably the most crucial thing to have in this matchup. You need get your expo up before them and secure a production lead. Then, you need to hit before their first collosus comes out. You have to realize if they're rushing to get out their tech or going more ground heavy before the collosus and adjust your timing accordingly. On top of that, if they're going 6gate, you need to react and turtle yourself. Keep in mind, this timing window is pretty fucking small and depends from player to player.
If you hit the right timing and end up exchanging a decent amount of units while setting up your 3rd, you will win if you continue pressure via drops and other small unit exchanges. If you're forced into large battles vs the protoss, you've lost. If you're forced into even bases for a long period of time(past the first 10 minutes), or the protoss gets ahead on bases, you've lost. It's the reason you see a lot of protoss play turtle mode the entire game, then 1a through a terran army when they've been on equal bases for a decent while.
Tbh, the matchup is really mundane, I would much rather do TvT all day than a TvP a single time. It relies too much on an extremely early lead to win which usually comes from either a perfect timing attack, gimmicky play, or the protoss fucking up. This won't change until the other races have better late game options or protoss aoe gets reduced.
Oh, and mech? Immortals and chargelots with +3 attack say hi.
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My lategame composition is mainly marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/thor/raven, with a much heavier emphasis on marauders than marine. Ghosts not just to EMP templar, but EMP EVERYTHING, marines are typically for drops as I have two reactored rax I never switch out, Thors are for tanking chargelots and such, and Ravens are for PDD. I almost always utilize nukes as well, there are times they are so useful as an APM sink. What I do is I drop one location with 2 medivacs of marines, nuke an expansion, then move my main army into another expansion. All I generally have to do is stim the marines and spread them slightly while looking for some HT, ignore the ghost after the nuke is launched, then focus on engaging my main army with their third expansion which is where their army typically is.
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On February 17 2011 15:49 FabledIntegral wrote:
My lategame composition is mainly marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/thor/raven, with a much heavier emphasis on marauders than marine. Ghosts not just to EMP templar, but EMP EVERYTHING, marines are typically for drops as I have two reactored rax I never switch out, Thors are for tanking chargelots and such, and Ravens are for PDD. I almost always utilize nukes as well, there are times they are so useful as an APM sink. What I do is I drop one location with 2 medivacs of marines, nuke an expansion, then move my main army into another expansion. All I generally have to do is stim the marines and spread them slightly while looking for some HT, ignore the ghost after the nuke is launched, then focus on engaging my main army with their third expansion which is where their army typically is.
Could you provide any replays to demonstrate your playstyle of 3 pronged attacks?
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On February 17 2011 16:00 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:49 FabledIntegral wrote:
My lategame composition is mainly marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/thor/raven, with a much heavier emphasis on marauders than marine. Ghosts not just to EMP templar, but EMP EVERYTHING, marines are typically for drops as I have two reactored rax I never switch out, Thors are for tanking chargelots and such, and Ravens are for PDD. I almost always utilize nukes as well, there are times they are so useful as an APM sink. What I do is I drop one location with 2 medivacs of marines, nuke an expansion, then move my main army into another expansion. All I generally have to do is stim the marines and spread them slightly while looking for some HT, ignore the ghost after the nuke is launched, then focus on engaging my main army with their third expansion which is where their army typically is. Could you provide any replays to demonstrate your playstyle of 3 pronged attacks?
I don't save my replays. Haven't had any lategame TvP lately, but it seems to work best on Xel Naga or Metal.
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On February 17 2011 15:11 pedduck wrote:
I think may be the answers is that we cannot do a battle of equal supply in TVP.
We play sc2 with some of the sc1 idea that terran should beat other race with equal supply. May be this is not the case in SC2.
I start to think that terran might have to play like inferior race (not in term of game balance but in term of unit strength). May be we can compare terran in sc2 as protoss in sc.bw in a way that we should avoid direct engagement and stay defensive until we got highest tier unit out( such as battle or thor).
thats nice and all but P had/has way better "highest tier" units, AND pumps out way way faster.
~2900 masters T/Z ,im very interested what will happen in the next few weeks in TvP esp on the new maps which favor P in addition to the current "problem" people have with tvp.
tbh right now i dont see a solution. whenever you see armies clash lategame P wins the fight if he has a decent composition and doesnt run into 5 emps. in addition to that he remaxes way faster and is very efficient in smaller skirmishes with zealot/ht. i just dont see a T army that beats a full tech P army.
ive tried to mix it up recently alot too. mostly tried to just add 2-3 fac tanks into my bio play with less medivacs and few to none vikings. and while i had some success with it you instalose if youre caught oop once and are in trouble later since at one point chargelots/ht/immortal will just overwhelm you(and it gets realyl ugly when stargates come into play). its a nice alternative vs collosus play tho.
air is only a midgame thing. banshees get countered just as hard as bio by HTs. battlecruisers are slow, are terrible with the inevitable upgrade disadvantage and again HTs solve em decently well.
thors are nice to have a blockers but they are a nice addition and no solution. they dont "counter" anything (except phoenixes) but have quite some problems with zealots,immortals,voidrays.
blue flame hellions are defenitly underused tho. think that we will see alot more use of em esp given what a big problem upgraded chargelots are lategame (for me at least). imho the unit with the biggest potential. in theory they are quite good against a big part of the P army and have all the nice harrass potential of "oh i didnt see that one drop coming. now i lost 20 probes in 2 secs". i just have problems really mixing em into my play buildwise .esp since you still need marines or a unscouted stargate addition will end the game. also with forcefields, how nicely they line up for collosus ,how clunky they feel and the "unreliable" splash i really dont know how to properly use em as a mainpart of my army.
overall right now i dont see a solution. P lategame ball will beat you, will remax way harder and can switch his composition around quite fast once the tech for it is there. i havent seen a convincing game so far that makes me think otherwise. aton of the mech or airplays you see win are purely midgame focused or/and harrass focused and while cute they dont really help.
/edit btw this is the reaction a friend got after some discussion about late/macro P at the end of a rep he send me( laddergame vs a 3k P i think) ;D
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks... Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well.
Would you rather drop 3 Thors or 12 Marauders? I'll take the Marauders every single time. There are so many advantages with dropping bio over mech. Namely, bio can maneuver inside a base and can chase running probes. Medivacs are already the natural companion to bio.
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I think why late game terran is that early pressure closes the gap between the amount of units nessecary to have a late game terran army, like a bunch of the games I've seen Terran goes as aggro as possible then late game is like QQ wtf happened.
Like If you really wanted to theory craft it I think that the late game needs to have an early contain splitting the map with literal bunkers and rax so that no drops happen and then you can get tanks and just kinda take over the map. Why would that be good? because Terran is very immobile with their late game options if you don't want to do a drop. Like thors and siege tanks are super immobile so if you start by taking a really wide contain and gradually close it in you can take a bunch of expos and then use some harass to keep them in their early game so you could just open 111 and go like fast tank get like 1 medivac and do a drop with like 8 marines and do a really slow like 5-6 minute push
This is all from a protoss perspective your going to want to see when you need a reactor on your starport to get vikings or to make a ghost academy based on what protoss kinda wants to do.
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OriginalBeast, your writing is truly incomprehensible...
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Nice to see that kind of topic running. Now i'm only platinum level terran, so i might get way of with this idea, but i will throw it to you guys because i'm interested in what you think of it;
Bassicly you should all know what is polt-timing attack.
So what i want to ask is; What would happen if we keep that same unit mix, as it is ussed in polts timing attack, but later in the game?
So bassicly you oppen reactored rax/tech lab rax add starport for 1 raven and 2 banshees then do a timing push while expoing. (or you could also do a 2 rax expo and then do same mix of units later)
Now once you nat goes up, keep the same unit combo and just increse the numbers ofc., like 5 rax and 2 starports on 2 base, then more on 3 bases and so on...
The question here is, do you think, that since you keep the mobility with this kind of units, and since your getting banshees, he can't cut stalkers that much, that then late game unit composition of MMM/bansee/raven would be better vs his composition?
This is what i am ussing currently. HTs are still problematic, but at least they are the only thing that gives me worries.
sorry for my bad english and good day to all, svizcy
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On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks... Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well.
Templar can still snipe the Medivac 
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I played my last games vs P with mech. Im on high Diamond, so maybe this are just my noob words
Sometimes i raped a P army so easy, because I wasnt turteling so much, tried to kick expos with 3-4 tanks, some hellions harrasing his main/natural. Tried to get some Marines in this build, to get rid of some zealots, but that doesnt worked so well. If your Positioning is bad, you get crushed without even killing 10 food. Some P used Phoenix and lifted up some of my Tanks, even with Thors that hurts. All in all I dont like playing mech vs P, because(like some P before sad) you give Toss the game without fighting for it. He can exp crazzzy and kill you with XX Warp ins.
I have some thought's with a realy wierd build.. I dont have so much time to try it this one, but I like the idea of it.(maybe its just my noob thoughts :D )
Whats about a composition/transition Bio into Banshee/Raven/Vikings into BC(very, very late game). You probably should have some tech labs, that you can switch with the starports. So you can mix in some Marines(that mabe have Stim/CS) Overmins can be used for Marines/Hellions and aggressive Expanding. The BIG PROBLEM like mentioned before are HT with feedback... I dont think adding Ghosts is able, because of that high amount of gas you need...More than 2 Ghosts are needed... This are 2 less banshees. NEVER tried this build. Not even once. I would like to, but I have nearly 0 time to play T_T
Maybe the transition Timing would be, before he get's some Collosi, so they are useless for a while or even the whole game.
Composition is Mobile, Ravens with Energy upgrade can use PDD more often. Vikings can snipe Ob's and Banshees can clean the Army, they have so sick DPS(everyone knows that;) ). Even slipping 1-2 Banshees or Hellions from time to time in the minerals would be no Problem. You maybe can get some of your Marines vs Voids.
But still, there is the biggest HT Problem... And I have no clue how to deal with them.
Just a thought, dont kill me for that
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On February 17 2011 16:08 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Would you rather drop 3 Thors or 12 Marauders? I'll take the Marauders every single time. There are so many advantages with dropping bio over mech. Namely, bio can maneuver inside a base and can chase running probes. Medivacs are already the natural companion to bio.
It depends. I'd probably opt for neither and drop 8 Marauders and 1 Thor. Or if killing Probes is your priority, do 4 Marauders, 4 Blue Flame Helions, and 1 Thor. Mix and match as necessary.
In a vacuum, you are correct that 12 Marauders would probably do more damage than 3 Thors. However, that isn't the issue at hand. The issue with Mech play is that it generally takes too long to build up which leads to overly defensive and/or passive play. The Toss ends up taking the map and you simply get crushed by his superior economy & production. Thus Thor drops, while generally not as effective as Bio drops, would allow you to be aggressive with a relatively small Mech force while you are transitioning to a larger Mech force.
I think it's a reasonable suggestion when you consider that 4 Thors with Strike Cannons can snipe an expo in about 6 seconds. Even 16 stimmed Marauders can't match that, especially when you consider that Medivacs drop things one unit at a time. I don't think Warpgates even finish warping in units fast enough to stop that. The costs are comparable. The Thors would cost more Gas, but less minerals, less food, and less build time.
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I've always had huge problems with TvP, but lately adopted a completely different playstyle, largely focused on stalling the game until I get a maxed Mech army, and have been having a lot of success.
I start out by building two factories one after another and making nothing but tanks along with Marines. This has generally always allowed me to make enough units to hold off 4 gates (probably even without having to build a bunker) and most other Protoss early aggresion. Once I get more tanks I expo, get upgrades, get more factories, and start getting Thors, Vikings and Hellions.
Thors, Siege Tanks, Vikings and Hellions are the most important units for late game TvP.
Thors and Siege Tanks basically take care of everything on the ground.
Hellions kill zealots and HTs/Sentries (if the Protoss chooses to use them).
Vikings Kill Colossus, Voids, and Carriers, which are the main threat to Mech.
Typically you want to match these up in a way that counters your opponent's army best.
I've also noticed that a lot of people choose to go purely Siege Tank + Viking + Hellion, where as others (like me) like to go part Tank part Thor or even pure Thor. I think all 3 options work quite honestly, but I'm more in favor of Thors personally, because they wreck everything that Tanks do (expect Colossus) AND can also provide nice air support at the same time.
Some Replays attached if anyone is curious.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140685-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140683-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
3k~ Diamond rating.
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On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I'm a ~2700 Master Terran who has lost a lot of games trying heavy Mech play against Protoss, and I feel like this is the biggest problem with Siege Tanks. Even though you will kill the initial army and your Tanks survive, your support for them will die in the battle, leaving the Tanks open for Zealots to charge in and clean up. Then there's a sizable window for Protoss to kill you while your Mech is rebuilding. Basically you can never advance your army forward because of this.
Once High Templar and Colossus are in play, I feel like the only way to survive is to rely on units that have big HP and can take hits - Thors, Marauders, and sometimes Battlecruisers (but they are more situational). In addition, Ghosts become essential to winning battles at the end; they are Terran's only answer to Storm, and they can deal with the Immortals. If you can hit decent EMP's and keep your Ghosts alive, eventually you can win the war of attrition. I also feel like having a few Ravens goes a long way to negate some Stalker fire or even deal some instant damage with Seeker Missile. Again, keeping these alive is crucial because you don't have the gas to keep pumping them out.
At times the late game feels impossible against Protoss, but I feel like it can be done with the right approach. I feel like this will be the most complex matchup as Starcraft 2 goes on, and it will be fun to watch it evolve.
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TvP is extremely swingy. A single seemingly minor error like missing a single Templar w ur EMP, or tanks sieging a sec or two too late, or marines supporting thors moving too close to colossus or too far to attack stalkers, not being able to get that last vehicle upgrade in time, all can make the diff between total ownage or utter defeat. It's like having one more unit of this and one less of that makes a huge difference.
In TvZ at least it's a little more stable. Even marine-Baneling micro war IMO is More manageable than what happens in TvP, since most banelIngs die along with marines/vice vesa.
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tanks ff, so against a zealot heavy composition, why not put a few marauders out front to get charge surrounded like you do to absorb a moved banelings
On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks... Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well.
interesting, but how much of your army do you want to invest in the drop?
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France12904 Posts
Is the only way to beat protoss lategame to sack every SCV except those who min gas and use a lot of mule instead? :/
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I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this already but, have you ever tried using Ravens? 3-4 ravens to compliment your late-game army of the marauder/thor/viking/medivac. A few PDD can really give you a huge advantage because they soak up quite a bit of damage from stalkers which is the bulk of their ball. I'm only diamond league but many times battles are won with ravens for me.
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i'm neither masters (diamond) nor terran (protoss) but has any terran tried using lots of air late game? i can tell some positives and negatives but toss ground to air is not particularly good and with a reactored starport toss shouldn't be ever able to take control of the air. the flaws are obviously it forces templar as colossus won't work against vikings and can storm the bio and feedback cruisers and banshees... but it does seem like something that could work and i'm obviously somewhat thinking about the TLO White-Ra game on jungle basin about this. anyone tried it?
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On February 17 2011 20:40 marines2231 wrote:
I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this already but, have you ever tried using Ravens? 3-4 ravens to compliment your late-game army of the marauder/thor/viking/medivac. A few PDD can really give you a huge advantage because they soak up quite a bit of damage from stalkers which is the bulk of their ball. I'm only diamond league but many times battles are won with ravens for me.
ravens cost huge amounts of gas (as much as a thor), can be feedbacked/sniped and stalkers are the smallest problem you have lategame.
On February 17 2011 20:57 rolfe wrote:
i'm neither masters (diamond) nor terran (protoss) but has any terran tried using lots of air late game? i can tell some positives and negatives but toss ground to air is not particularly good and with a reactored starport toss shouldn't be ever able to take control of the air. the flaws are obviously it forces templar as colossus won't work against vikings and can storm the bio and feedback cruisers and banshees... but it does seem like something that could work and i'm obviously somewhat thinking about the TLO White-Ra game on jungle basin about this. anyone tried it?
banshees get just as hard countered by HT as bio. storm/feedback simply destroys em. yeah air heavy can work but its a midgame thing thats based on harrass. so absolutely nothing that helps tvp lategame.
also you see more and more stargate play. phoenixes giggle when they see banshees.
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I played a passive mech terran in a long game as protoss. He wasn't the best, but I found his thor/tank composition pretty hard to break. My few void rays died instantly, and I ended up being forced into 2 robo immortal/zealot, which destroyed his army but allowed him to instantly transition into marine/thor/banshee. Even a couple of banshees are devastating when it forces you to get stalkers, and when in the late game you can start cloak immediately. It's also very hard to kill banshees with stalkers in an army situation. I had a stargate for phoenixes but I forgot about it, wasn't playing my best.
Remember, tech switching for terran is only as hard as lifting buildings onto other buildings. It doesn't cost a thing late game.
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If you think tanks and general mech is bad just follow GoOdY. He plays pure mech (almost never makes a marine/ marauder from the 3-4 min mark onward)...in all MUs. He wins Craft Cups, he beats players like Adelscot, Soke, Dimaga, Kas,etc.
What i have found playing mech is that this is hard . I was playing in Diamond hoping for masters promotion when i switched to mech and i almost fell in platinum. You have to relearn everything about you race. From timings to tactics ...playing mech is like playing a new Race.
Point is, even if you are a top masters player (with bio), you will lose to much worse players when trying mech. This is due to the understanding/ experience required that simply put, takes time.
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On February 17 2011 21:20 Sapphire.lux wrote:
If you think tanks and general mech is bad just follow GoOdY. He plays pure mech (almost never makes a marine/ marauder from the 3-4 min mark onward)...in all MUs. He wins Craft Cups, he beats players like Adelscot, Soke, Dimaga, Kas,etc.
What i have found playing mech is that this is hard . I was playing in Diamond hoping for masters promotion when i switched to mech and i almost fell in platinum. You have to relearn everything about you race. From timings to tactics ...playing mech is like playing a new Race.
Point is, even if you are a top masters player (with bio), you will lose to much worse players when trying mech. This is due to the understanding/ experience required that simply put, takes time.
Goody loses to much worse players when he does mech. His games only confirm my theory that trading 200/200 armies with Toss late game is a terrible idea.
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I spend the last weeks to find a good build and test the viability of mech vs P. After tons of losses in earlygame I finally figured out stuff. The few games I really reached lategame I totally ownd the deathball with absolutly minimal losses.
Ok now the problem. You cant go mech FE(execpt 2Thorrush with strikecannon plus repair, but you lose to DT and is pretty allinish). You will just get ownd. Finding a way to expand and transition into mech safely is the key. Sadly I havent found one yet 
Ok now lategame. Tanks are awesome, tanks win me the games. There are just a few things that counter masstanks wich will be Immortal(just if you have a low tankcount), Chargelots plus Storm and air units. But there are solutions for everything.
Upgrades are essential! There is a ridiculous difference between mass tanks with and without upgrades. Mass tanks with upgrades basically deny the Protoss groundarmy.
You wont have enough gas to produce mass mech and still keep your minerals low before you have 4-5 running bases. So ideally you dont want to build any gasheavy units besides the mechthings execpt very few ghosts and maybe 1 or 2 medivacs to drop.
You will have a ton of overmins. A SHIT TON! The way you dump them decides if you win or lose the game. I figured out that hellions and marines are the wrong thing to go for. Blueflame hellions are great for lategamescouting and harassing but they are useless in fights if you have 10+. Marines are good to defend your faraway expos in bunkers. You will have a ton of mins so you can build 5 bunkers and get 1-2 marines in them each and they will never be able to kill them with a few units that run by your tankline. But dont get to many! You will need the supply in tanks/thors and maybe vikings to an lesser extend.
The next thing you want to dump you minerals into are massexpos. Even if you lose them, you have the mins anyway, so why not going to take the whole map and make PFs?
One thing you lose to is mobility. Dump your money in shit that prevents protoss from abusing you with blink, warpprisms and air units so build missile turrets!! You deny every attempt to bypass your tankline with them. I build them everywhere.
The last thing you want to build are massbarracks. Not for marineproduction, but just to prevent the protoss army to reach your tanks and cause friendlyfire wich basically means heavy losses.
I pretty happy with mech I have to say. It wins me more games than the stupid MMM lategame.
so far... watch a 200supply tank army demolish an emp´d protoss army and make it disappear in 2seconds and you want to start going mech immediatly.
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I think alot of us agree that Terran late-game army composition is usually inferior to the Protoss late game army composition.
Probably because Protoss has mobile AOE big hitters, and the Terran only has the siege tank and the ghost. (And siege tanks are like fucking snails).
So... what does that mean? You play to your strengths.
In terran's case, that's maximum gimmicky play.
Drops.
Bunker Rushes.
Cloaked Shees.
Thor/BC rush with mass repair.
Lategame?
Mass drops.
Mass Nukes
... I don't know =/
But mobiliity seems like Terran's only lategame advantage.
Wow.
And especially with the horribly huge maps incoming with GSL.... wow.
I think we need an SC2's version of Boxer ASAP...
Someone who can micro 4 simultaneous drops at once and harass the main army with almost-battles.
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On February 17 2011 21:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
banshees get just as hard countered by HT as bio. storm/feedback simply destroys em. yeah air heavy can work but its a midgame thing thats based on harrass. so absolutely nothing that helps tvp lategame.
also you see more and more stargate play. phoenixes giggle when they see banshees.
TLO recently took out white-ra with air play. He sniped all the observers with a small viking+raven force, and cloaked banshees demolished everything else.
It's stupid to rule out a strategy because they can make phoenixes. Obviously if the protoss already has air dominance with phoenixes it wouldn't make sense to transition into banshee play. Just like if if the protoss was going void rays it wouldn't make sense to transition into mauraders.
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On February 17 2011 14:26 Touch wrote:
3.5k Terran. Personally, I prefer an aggressive style, which doesn't compliment mech or heavy transitions. So in order to maintain a strong economy, I only expand with Orbitals, upgrade fast, and never cease dropping/expansion sniping/attacking. For me, I think the game is lost against Protoss once they become established with a solid army with equal bases. Late game TvP is really about abusing the immobility of HTs and Colossus, and keeping armies small to reduce their effectiveness.
This. I am also a 3.5k terran player, and I've found aggressive bio strategies to be generally effective. MMM armies are extremely cost efficient in small numbers, while protoss is most dangerous when they reach a critical mass of high tech units and can move on the terran bases with a single cohesive army. I think a lot of people seem to think that bio balls should be able to stand toe to toe with a high tech protoss army, and that is simply not true with large supply counts. Even if terran can trade armies with the protoss, large numbers of warpgates and chrono boost means protoss will be able to replace his army faster than the terran. Bio strategies can be very effective, but the terran must be as aggressive as is humanly possible. Drops in multiple locations, tech sniping, and even small land armies roaming the map are essential. The idea is to keep the protoss on the defensive for as long as possible. Ideally, terran should be sufficiently ahead in resources from his aggression to be able to overwhelm the protoss with sheer weight of economy, but often a good protoss can stop even the best bio aggression without suffering too much damage. Often terran will be forced into a late-game confrontation, and in that case it is essential to know the exact unit composition of protoss. If he has more collossi, terran needs more vikings, if he has more templar, more mauraders/ghosts are needed. An underused tactic in late-game TvP is ghost cloaking. Cloaked ghosts can walk right up to the protoss army and EMP everything without risk of getting sniped, and EMP is absolutely essential for a bio army to have any chance of standing even with a late game protoss ball.
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ROOT tourney: Almost all the terrans (cept LZgamer who beat capoch 2-1) lost horribly to Toss.
Sorry, Mech is not the answer. Late game/Macro games are not the answer.
The only answer is new 1-2 base timing attacks to end the game early. The problem with this is that it makes for a bad RTS and that GSL maps are huge which weakens Terran timing attacks (but allows Toss timing attacks).
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On February 17 2011 20:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:tanks ff, so against a zealot heavy composition, why not put a few marauders out front to get charge surrounded like you do to absorb a moved banelings Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote:On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks... Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well. interesting, but how much of your army do you want to invest in the drop?
Scrap the idea completely. Strike cannons look good on paper, but with their chargeup and chargedown time (iirc it's 2 sec to load up cannons, 6 seconds of firing and 2 seconds of putting them away) the dps is inferior to +1 or +2 att thors. We use the cannons because they stun collosi/immortals and bypass the hardened shields.
A marauder drop will be superior any day.
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On February 17 2011 21:32 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 21:20 Sapphire.lux wrote:
If you think tanks and general mech is bad just follow GoOdY. He plays pure mech (almost never makes a marine/ marauder from the 3-4 min mark onward)...in all MUs. He wins Craft Cups, he beats players like Adelscot, Soke, Dimaga, Kas,etc.
What i have found playing mech is that this is hard . I was playing in Diamond hoping for masters promotion when i switched to mech and i almost fell in platinum. You have to relearn everything about you race. From timings to tactics ...playing mech is like playing a new Race.
Point is, even if you are a top masters player (with bio), you will lose to much worse players when trying mech. This is due to the understanding/ experience required that simply put, takes time. Goody loses to much worse players when he does mech. His games only confirm my theory that trading 200/200 armies with Toss late game is a terrible idea.
You can arguably say the opposite is true as well. Soke, Adelscot are considered better players then him. That is not to say that Goody is playing mech perfectly or that he is the most talented player ever (i think he is very talented).
SC2 is very ... volatile... compared to SC1. You can lose games to worse players no matter what race or stile you play. It might be because of "lack of knowledge" or/and just simple balance issues.
I agree that losing 200/200 battles vs. Protoss (or any race when you go mech) is game ending. But you have to agree that good EMPs/ PDDs can win the fight very, very easy. I am more worried for the lack of "controlling" space options and back stabs then wining the big fights.
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i have always liked going tons o vikings and banshees lategame with cloak and air upgrades, while also having a couple rax pumping ghosts for the emp.
Scan send in viking fleet snipe obs shift queue them on important units ( coll , rays , CARRIERS ) as soon as the obs dies send in cloaked banshees and ghosts emp the shit out of w/e you can and do dps before the next obs jumps out.
so far its been really effective on Kr ladder but it is ladder so not sure if its a good ref point.(High Masters)
EDIT THEORYCRAFT:
Actually after thinking about TvP lategame a bit more i do believe that raven and HSM are really underused in the endgame situation, when most protoss players like to keep the ball of death a HSM forces him to either take massive splash or split up his army .
Option A :
He takes massive damage and you can prob beat his army or atleast force a retreat.
Option B:
He has his army split up a bit so you can prob swiftly take down the COL with the Vikings while also engaging with banshees and pick off important units.
I do believe this option is worth exploring and ill prob start trying it out more on the ladder if that ever reaches lategame. If it works ill post some Replays just don’t expect them 2 fast :D
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do you think nukes could be used to full potential in this matchup. if you went a normal combo, marauders, vikings, ghosts, maybe you could use nukes to pin armies down, harass expansions, and perform movement plays with your mobile army. i think this could be a cheap and hard hitting way to further abuse mobility.
what do you guys think?
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Thor + Banshee will wreck any ground comp w/o immortals AND void rays. However, the issue is getting the two tech lab factories and 4 tech lab starports that you need to pump it out in any reasonable time. Such a comp also takes 6 geysers worth of gas and really need upgrades to be effective. I've also been experimenting with just going pure (Say, 12 rax) marauder and dropping absolutely everywhere, since warpin storms are barely useful against a pack of 4 marauders killing your base.
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On February 17 2011 22:06 Fadetowhite wrote:
EDIT THEORYCRAFT:
Actually after thinking about TvP lategame a bit more i do believe that raven and HSM are really underused in the endgame situation, when most protoss players like to keep the ball of death a HSM forces him to either take massive splash or split up his army .
Option A :
He takes massive damage and you can prob beat his army or atleast force a retreat.
Option B:
He has his army split up a bit so you can prob swiftly take down the COL with the Vikings while also engaging with banshees and pick off important units.
I do believe this option is worth exploring and ill prob start trying it out more on the ladder if that ever reaches lategame. If it works ill post some Replays just don’t expect them 2 fast :D
Option C: he feedbacks the Raven
What i have found is that the potential dmg done by the HSM is not worth the high risk of insta losing the Raven to Feedback.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 22:28 Arantir wrote:
Thor + Banshee will wreck any ground comp w/o immortals AND void rays. However, the issue is getting the two tech lab factories and 4 tech lab starports that you need to pump it out in any reasonable time. Such a comp also takes 6 geysers worth of gas and really need upgrades to be effective. I've also been experimenting with just going pure (Say, 12 rax) marauder and dropping absolutely everywhere, since warpin storms are barely useful against a pack of 4 marauders killing your base.
Well you should be out expanding the protoss early to mid game so if the protoss has the deathball and you don’t have a minimal of 3 bases up and fully saturated, then the loss is mostly due to getting out macro’d and you should be looking to improve in that area of the game.
I do agree doing multiple small drops is a good way of getting a amazing cost vs benefit ratio for your 4 mara + medivac and you should definitely be doing loads of drops.
Plus if he does decide to warp in HT’s its actually a loss for him if you micro those mara and kill it, even if you get stormed.
TvP late game still needs to be fully figured out anyway so maybe greater strats will emerge as soon as more games go to late game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2011 22:38 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 22:06 Fadetowhite wrote:
EDIT THEORYCRAFT:
Actually after thinking about TvP lategame a bit more i do believe that raven and HSM are really underused in the endgame situation, when most protoss players like to keep the ball of death a HSM forces him to either take massive splash or split up his army .
Option A :
He takes massive damage and you can prob beat his army or atleast force a retreat.
Option B:
He has his army split up a bit so you can prob swiftly take down the COL with the Vikings while also engaging with banshees and pick off important units.
I do believe this option is worth exploring and ill prob start trying it out more on the ladder if that ever reaches lategame. If it works ill post some Replays just don’t expect them 2 fast :D
Option C: he feedbacks the Raven What i have found is that the potential dmg done by the HSM is not worth the high risk of insta losing the Raven to Feedback.
its theorycraft and yes you will lose the raven if you send it in alone and from a predictable / scouted angle due too feedback.
however i am sure you can get it off more than 80% of the time if you engage from a unpredictable agle / with a distraction drop and i do believe it will be worth the cost of a raven if it lands.
however i will have to do some testing to actually back this theorycraft up haha so i will try to hit more P on ladder.
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I'm a gold toss player. In late game vs terran, I usually go for a typical bioball, zealots as meatshields, blink stalkers, 5-6 ranged colossus, 2 immortals, 3-4 sentries and high templars as an option depending on resources level. I'm not good at scouting late game because I'm too busy panicking, macroing and having my observers in the wrong parts of the map. Therefore I go for that army compo most of the time. If the terran goes for a bio army, it usually is a win, if he goes for bio+tank, it's a bit harder but still feasable. But in front of a big terran tech army, and especially one that would include lots of thors and cloaked banshees, I think I've lost every single time.
My couple of templars feedback won't help dealing with a big amount of banshees.
If I get lots of templars, usually terran will have a couple of ghosts that will nullify my efforts (either by emp-ing my temps or emp-ing his own banshees before the fight so they can feast on my colossus and templars with minimal risk).
The thors will then ruin my stalkers and zealots, even more so if they have some marine meatshields in the front line to protect the thors while they do their mass damage and some scvs to do their infamous repair job.
A couple of times I've scouted that mech army while it was building, build as many immortals as fast as I could, terran had upgraded his thors with the 250mm cannon : my immortals ---->instant mashed potatoes. Maybe Void Rays would have helped better but if you fail to win that one battle, well, you know how useless stargates are in a crisis management situation.
I know all of this could be improved by proper scouting, splitting armies, better army comp including lots of Void Rays (but even that has its downsides) etc etc but that's not the point, my only point is that at my little level of playing, mass thors, mass banshees, marine/ marauder frontline as meatshields, a couple of ghosts, a couple of tanks is a damn hard thing to defeat; other mixes are easier to defeat.
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On February 17 2011 15:26 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:13 Touch wrote:On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote:On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks. This is so true. The mech army is the worlds most immobile force and needs to be practical impossible to kill. You beat it by out macroing with more bases slowly chipping at it and by abusing its mobility. Not 1a into the mech.
Except that Toss can indeed 1a into the mech. That's what's wrong with it, you give up all the mobility and map control but don't get any real advantages in battle for it. Against decent Protoss players that is.
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Excellent thread, Id have to second the use of thors in the late game, their bulky, deal great dps, and cant get feedbacked making them an excellent late game TvP unit. I have also messed around with a thor/rauder/ghost/medivac/viking(if collsi) build and have had decent success with that.
Late game TvP's weakness isnt so much on the units IMO.
Its on the chronoboost/warp in versus mule.
Toss army/upgrades are scary as fuck late game. You can kill a late game army, but with warp in the toss becomes even scarier than Z late game cuz they have instant build units. Combine that with chronoboost which speeds up the high tech units as well.
Now a days every toss is all about upgrades as its the only way for their gateway units to out-do MMM. T has a very hard time competing with these upgrades thanks to chronoboost. Once a toss gets 2-2 with charge it is unbelivable how effective there units become. And if you think about it this generally happens around a time when T would want to start to transtion out of a bioball making it very deadly. Going from bio to mech is even harder because you have to invest so much into bio upgrades, that when you switch you lose all of that and have to start over. +0 tanks vs +2 armor zeals is a nightmare.
Im at a huge loss in this MU, toss always can get a 1gate FE now unless I go all in to the core. There is so many advantages toss have discover now a days, that the only thing I can rely on is drops. But good toss have easily learned to deal with this, Just stick a collsi and stalks in each base and you cant do shit.
This GSL shall be very interesting for us T's what will it be mech or bio???
Point at hand: Bio is losing viablity, while mech's viabilty is looking dim. Mass Starport??????!??!
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In my experience there are a few issues with the matchup - specifically those related to mech:
1) Protoss early aggression is very strong - so to play safe you are very limited in the early game, IMO a 1rax FE is never safe.
2) Tanks are really bad against chargelots - protoss has lots, they are light, they are cheap, they engage quickly causing splash damage to your own units and taking minimal splash themselves - tanks are also bad against immortals so you need to have marine or ghost support
-> I have tried tank/hellion and I find that it gets domolished by 1a collosus zealot army.
3) Not exactly mech but banshees cant cut it on their own - I have also tried the cute mass banshee with obs sniping vikings - this works sometimes but it IS a gimiky strategy that the protoss can easily solve with multiple obs and a little bit of micro
Now I havn't solved anything but I have a bit of an idea (2800 master)
I read a post the other day that said that 10 hellions beat 6-7 stalkers using amove (not sure if its true)
-> Perhaps if this is true a good new opening could be mass hellions, has anyone tried this? 1 Reactor factory can produce a ridiculous number of hellions (400 min/minute)
I imagine it could involve a 2factory reactor blue flame opening with mass hellions making up the main force. Micro would be intensive beginning with kiting back all the zealots, then move in close to the stalkers like roach micro to do splash to them all. I am purely theorcrafting that in this way you might be able to hold early and it is mineral heavy so conducive to a fairly quick XP (using gas to get early thors, so your early army would effectively be mass hellions plus a thor or two). In this way you could hold in the early game, do some badass hellions drops which are much more effective then infantry drops and I am intersted in getting to a final composition of thor banshee hellion. You wouldn't be able to kite as well once thors were on the field, but by then you have blue flame so it doesnt take too long to kite kill zealots with mass blue flame hellions so hopefully by the time the hellions are back to the thors you would have killed them all.
I think that thor banshee hellion is the best possible counter to protoss late game. The main issue, large toss splash damage is dealt with by thors absorbing it. The issue with banshees is that phenoixes own them, but thors own phenoixes - banshee/thor beats all protoss ground for cost. Hellions deal with zealots and help with any HT, but I don't think you will see many protoss responding with HTs to thors. What I would be most concerned about would be the voidrays, but you would already have some starport infrastructure in place, swap a starport onto a reactor and start producing mass vikings.
What do you guys think about this, have you seen any similar stuff? Anyone confirm the hellions v stalker data?
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On February 17 2011 22:54 Mercury- wrote:
Except that Toss can indeed 1a into the mech. That's what's wrong with it, you give up all the mobility and map control but don't get any real advantages in battle for it. Against decent Protoss players that is.
While protoss can 1a into mech in the right circumstances, they can't simply do it any time they like. When a protoss does take on a mech army head-on, they've generally spent some time building up a composition designed for that purpose, which means chargelots, immortals, often colossi for the extra range to hit the tanks, and sometimes phoenixes to lift tanks during the attack. What that means is that mech can achieve a good contain, but you shouldn't expect it to last forever. You have to either close the deal or tech-switch.
However, I agree that mass tanks as your main force isn't the best option in TvP. Thors are definitely scarier to the protoss army overall, and make a good core for your forces with the right upgrades and support.
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On February 17 2011 23:57 statikg wrote:
In my experience there are a few issues with the matchup - specifically those related to mech:
1) Protoss early aggression is very strong - so to play safe you are very limited in the early game, IMO a 1rax FE is never safe.
2) Tanks are really bad against chargelots - protoss has lots, they are light, they are cheap, they engage quickly causing splash damage to your own units and taking minimal splash themselves - tanks are also bad against immortals so you need to have marine or ghost support
-> I have tried tank/hellion and I find that it gets domolished by 1a collosus zealot army.
3) Not exactly mech but banshees cant cut it on their own - I have also tried the cute mass banshee with obs sniping vikings - this works sometimes but it IS a gimiky strategy that the protoss can easily solve with multiple obs and a little bit of micro
Now I havn't solved anything but I have a bit of an idea (2800 master)
I read a post the other day that said that 10 hellions beat 6-7 stalkers using amove (not sure if its true)
-> Perhaps if this is true a good new opening could be mass hellions, has anyone tried this? 1 Reactor factory can produce a ridiculous number of hellions (400 min/minute)
I imagine it could involve a 2factory reactor blue flame opening with mass hellions making up the main force. Micro would be intensive beginning with kiting back all the zealots, then move in close to the stalkers like roach micro to do splash to them all. I am purely theorcrafting that in this way you might be able to hold early and it is mineral heavy so conducive to a fairly quick XP (using gas to get early thors, so your early army would effectively be mass hellions plus a thor or two). In this way you could hold in the early game, do some badass hellions drops which are much more effective then infantry drops and I am intersted in getting to a final composition of thor banshee hellion. You wouldn't be able to kite as well once thors were on the field, but by then you have blue flame so it doesnt take too long to kite kill zealots with mass blue flame hellions so hopefully by the time the hellions are back to the thors you would have killed them all.
I think that thor banshee hellion is the best possible counter to protoss late game. The main issue, large toss splash damage is dealt with by thors absorbing it. The issue with banshees is that phenoixes own them, but thors own phenoixes - banshee/thor beats all protoss ground for cost. Hellions deal with zealots and help with any HT, but I don't think you will see many protoss responding with HTs to thors. What I would be most concerned about would be the voidrays, but you would already have some starport infrastructure in place, swap a starport onto a reactor and start producing mass vikings.
What do you guys think about this, have you seen any similar stuff? Anyone confirm the hellions v stalker data?
Agreed except that once again, as you said you can nullify HT with a couple of ghosts, either emp-ing the HTs or emp your banshees before the fight so feedback is useless. Storms are gonna be pretty useless vs thors too , so yeah all in all if toss goes HTs vs mech it's -in my mind- a lot of resources wasted - if he scouts your build he's not gonna go HT and probably focus on air . My only reserve is about hellions, even with blue flame they're pretty weak for late game and probably hard to micro in the middle of a huge fight to make the damages you expect them to do...but there's micro kings out there, so....I don't know, might be handy in some cases, I'll leave that to others.
As for the hellion early game harass, it feels a bit like the echoic build
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624
but if my memory is good, he said on day9 daily it wasn't very efficient vs terran and zerg, but not protoss because early stalkers will own blue hellions, not the other way around. I haven't experimented but if you do, let us know the results ;d
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Has anyone attempted going mass air?
Vikings from Reactor Starports can quickly take air control and if you keep your Banshees cloaked their energy won't be much of a target for Feedback.
Add a Raven for stealth detection (allowing Observer sniping and cloaked Banshees to be untouchable) and PDD and you might get a long way.
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Have any of you tried to drop everywhere, meanwhile bunkering up to stop the counter? This only works late game, when you can afford to build a few bunkers with little cost.
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On February 18 2011 00:22 Thezzy wrote:
Has anyone attempted going mass air?
Vikings from Reactor Starports can quickly take air control and if you keep your Banshees cloaked their energy won't be much of a target for Feedback.
Add a Raven for stealth detection (allowing Observer sniping and cloaked Banshees to be untouchable) and PDD and you might get a long way.
This works wonder...if the protoss is bad at scouting. It happened to me once when I did not scouting at all and build a mixed army with one observer only thinking I'd get out of any situation just macroing fast and couting on the power of toss units. He came, killed my obs, then 20 banshees ravaged a 120 army in 20 secs and I was gone in no time. But if the toss sees it early enough, he can cut down zealots, and mass produce void, phoenixes, stalkers and 3-4 observers + cannons, kill your raven first and then you might lose all your banshees in no time and pbbly lose the match. The other mech builds are stronger in my opinion...
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 17 2011 23:57 statikg wrote:
In my experience there are a few issues with the matchup - specifically those related to mech:
1) Protoss early aggression is very strong - so to play safe you are very limited in the early game, IMO a 1rax FE is never safe.
2) Tanks are really bad against chargelots - protoss has lots, they are light, they are cheap, they engage quickly causing splash damage to your own units and taking minimal splash themselves - tanks are also bad against immortals so you need to have marine or ghost support
-> I have tried tank/hellion and I find that it gets domolished by 1a collosus zealot army.
3) Not exactly mech but banshees cant cut it on their own - I have also tried the cute mass banshee with obs sniping vikings - this works sometimes but it IS a gimiky strategy that the protoss can easily solve with multiple obs and a little bit of micro
Now I havn't solved anything but I have a bit of an idea (2800 master)
I read a post the other day that said that 10 hellions beat 6-7 stalkers using amove (not sure if its true)
-> Perhaps if this is true a good new opening could be mass hellions, has anyone tried this? 1 Reactor factory can produce a ridiculous number of hellions (400 min/minute)
I imagine it could involve a 2factory reactor blue flame opening with mass hellions making up the main force. Micro would be intensive beginning with kiting back all the zealots, then move in close to the stalkers like roach micro to do splash to them all. I am purely theorcrafting that in this way you might be able to hold early and it is mineral heavy so conducive to a fairly quick XP (using gas to get early thors, so your early army would effectively be mass hellions plus a thor or two). In this way you could hold in the early game, do some badass hellions drops which are much more effective then infantry drops and I am intersted in getting to a final composition of thor banshee hellion. You wouldn't be able to kite as well once thors were on the field, but by then you have blue flame so it doesnt take too long to kite kill zealots with mass blue flame hellions so hopefully by the time the hellions are back to the thors you would have killed them all.
I think that thor banshee hellion is the best possible counter to protoss late game. The main issue, large toss splash damage is dealt with by thors absorbing it. The issue with banshees is that phenoixes own them, but thors own phenoixes - banshee/thor beats all protoss ground for cost. Hellions deal with zealots and help with any HT, but I don't think you will see many protoss responding with HTs to thors. What I would be most concerned about would be the voidrays, but you would already have some starport infrastructure in place, swap a starport onto a reactor and start producing mass vikings.
What do you guys think about this, have you seen any similar stuff? Anyone confirm the hellions v stalker data?
Nice start but you can't afford 2 reactor Hellions from 1 base, unfortunately.
I have been experimenting with a 1 reactor fac Hellion opening though. They are indeed quite strong vs gateway units in large numbers. Unfortunately, they're not very good against Colo or vr. Will need to experiment with different variations until I get something I like.
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3 possible compositions that I think are viable late game:
1. Banshee, BC, Viking, Hellions
- Mass Banshees are the workhorse. Vikings to protect Banshess against Protoss air.
- Hellions are the mineral dump. Marines/bunker defences at strategic points as needed.
- Banshees need to micro energy dump to prevent feedback from doing well though if you see templars.
Pros
- Upgrade synergy (focus on air upgrades)
- Lategame with BCs to yamato templars, you have a fighting chance in a 200 vs 200 clash.
- Mostly mobile till BCs are added.
Cons
- Immobile when BCs are added
- Huge mass stalkers/void/templar compositions would likely be cost effective against your air.
- Gas-limited. Hellions are not very complementary, more of an after-thought to dumping minerals.
- Slow replacement rate. If you wipe you're dead even if you wipe his army too.
2. Marauder, Hellion, Viking, Ghost
- Marauders and Hellions form the main bulk.
- Always have at least 7 vikings (preferably 8) to 2-shot colossus. If possible this can be increased to 14 vikings to 1-shot colossus.
- Hellions can kill zealots, sentries and templars fairly well. Use the speed to make opportunistic snipes of those 3 units.
- Marauders do well vs. stalkers, can at least do decent damage before they die to colossus / templar
- Ghost to EMP where possible.
Pros
- Infantry upgrades not wasted
- You can produce out of multiple facilities, and raxes are low-cost compared to the other buildings, hence this is the one with the best replacement rate.
- Unit synergy is high.
Cons
- You will still lose to death ball 200 v 200 w/o godly micro if there are Templars.
- Upgrades all over the place, no synergy.
3. Tank, Hellion, Thors
Pros
- Upgrade synergy
- Only composition that is likely more cost effective than deathball
Con
- Immobile like hell
- Slow replacement rate, you're dead if you wipe.
For all 3, sprinkling with 1-3 medivacs and 1-3 ravens for support.
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Hmm driving to school popped an idea into my head
a thor port build
Im thinking off of two base you could do 2-2-2 Get a ton of MM thors and banshees, try and take a quick third or focus on denying the protoss third until hes starved.
With 3 base you could prolly kick it up to 2-3-3.
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On February 17 2011 22:06 Fadetowhite wrote:
i have always liked going tons o vikings and banshees lategame with cloak and air upgrades, while also having a couple rax pumping ghosts for the emp.
Scan send in viking fleet snipe obs shift queue them on important units ( coll , rays , CARRIERS ) as soon as the obs dies send in cloaked banshees and ghosts emp the shit out of w/e you can and do dps before the next obs jumps out.
so far its been really effective on Kr ladder but it is ladder so not sure if its a good ref point.(High Masters)
EDIT THEORYCRAFT:
Actually after thinking about TvP lategame a bit more i do believe that raven and HSM are really underused in the endgame situation, when most protoss players like to keep the ball of death a HSM forces him to either take massive splash or split up his army .
Option A :
He takes massive damage and you can prob beat his army or atleast force a retreat.
Option B:
He has his army split up a bit so you can prob swiftly take down the COL with the Vikings while also engaging with banshees and pick off important units.
I do believe this option is worth exploring and ill prob start trying it out more on the ladder if that ever reaches lategame. If it works ill post some Replays just don’t expect them 2 fast :D
glad to see i wasn't totally being stupid have you ever used battlecruisers in this situation at all? i know the expense the speed etc are all a little against them but the armour against stalkers from ground plus anti air of vikings seems to be pretty strong esp with a PDD. of course this is super super gas intensive and late game etc but it seems to be something that could (purely in theory) work as long as you don't lose out too badly in the EMP vs feedback battle
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That thor/banshee idea reminded me of a pretty sweet game/build that showed lots of potential. It was on JP and friends with Gretorp, he was playing TT1 on metalopolis crossmap.
I cant rewatch the game right now so the details might be a bit wrong, but he started with 1-1-1 for cloaked banshee harass. Soon he added 2 rax and went for a bio/banshee push to delay the third from TT1. Later he would add vikings, ghosts and thors to his mix for a really solid ball, meanwhile using banshees and biodrops for harass. He discussed air control alot and how it is important, and I think he is onto something there.
So banshees are definately a good option, especially if you can pull off some tricky stuff with cloak. Their dps is high enough to make them work in your big ball but at the same time to me they feel a little too fragile to be the "meat" of your army. A great harass unit and a good source of DPS though.
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I personally like Mass air + marines as my late game. BCs with Yamato take care of Void Rays sooooo effectively and can tank tons of damage, while Banshees are once again, the meat of your DPS. Vikings are also great as an air superiority unit, I like to sprinkle a few in to help soak damage and kill Void/Colossi. Marines are used as a mineral dump and are great if your opponent goes Stalker/Carrier, as they do extremely well when stimmed against a composition like that.
Upgrades are so so important though for this kind of play to work. 3 armored BCs are godly however, they take FOREVER to kill, and you can drop MULEs to repair on the spot if you need to. Armor also makes it so much harder for stalkers to kill banshees. Stalkers don't trade well with banshees at all, so the more armor, the better!
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On February 18 2011 00:03 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 22:54 Mercury- wrote:
Except that Toss can indeed 1a into the mech. That's what's wrong with it, you give up all the mobility and map control but don't get any real advantages in battle for it. Against decent Protoss players that is. While protoss can 1a into mech in the right circumstances, they can't simply do it any time they like. When a protoss does take on a mech army head-on, they've generally spent some time building up a composition designed for that purpose, which means chargelots, immortals, often colossi for the extra range to hit the tanks, and sometimes phoenixes to lift tanks during the attack. What that means is that mech can achieve a good contain, but you shouldn't expect it to last forever. You have to either close the deal or tech-switch. However, I agree that mass tanks as your main force isn't the best option in TvP. Thors are definitely scarier to the protoss army overall, and make a good core for your forces with the right upgrades and support.
Uh, it's not like the Protoss wouldn't get Immo/Chargelot/Colossus regardless lol
Phoenixes arguably aren't even needed.
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
you can't just go mass thors. The important part about it was that he was really only thors and ghosts.
In addition, he opened banshees to keep the protoss in his base while he threw down several expansions. Then he started massing thors and ghosts. When artosis engaged, he empd the whole army.
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Plat Protoss here. It seems the only time we have an advantage over Terran is in the late game.
Early game transitions are in Terran's Favor. You can always open reaper and force stalkers, then to follow up with maurauders.
Mid game. MMM to pin us to our base while you expand freely. Its only until after we get storm+amulet that we have an actual advantage. Colossi isn't even an option since its not hard to get a few vikings out (since you already have the Starport).
Late game. Carrier, Mothership, Storm, mass warp gate, Protoss finally has an advantage. And then transition starts over again (somewhat, since you want to rebuild your army ASAP).
Rarely my games will go into late game. It will usually end much much sooner. Maybe at my level, late game just means who's macro is more consistent.
@palebluedot: Playing toss is trolling because _______? Maybe I shouldn't feed it but if its base on something I would like to know why you think that. I mean its not like we can make a banshee....
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Wow, as I read this back and forth, I quickly realize why I am silver and not diamond or master league, but it is amazing to read and really see the insight and thinking behind some of the builds and transitioning. I obviously don’t really have much to offer here, but I felt like chiming in and saying this is great stuff…
I guess I’ll try to give my two cents, which is probably what it is worth. With the little bit of playing that I’ve done I can definitely see the problem of going bioball all the way to the end. I can also see the big problem of tanks. It seems like with PvT tanks tend to be more of a defensive unit rather than an offensive unit because of the mobility factor. You really have to keep them way behind the front line or they’ll easily be picked off. I see them more of a retreat defensive tactic. Allowing you to retreat and odds are as soon as the tanks start shelling, Protoss will pull back.
Which means It does seem like the only other available unit due to resources and time is the thor which does pretty well against most units, but it’s only ok with the zealot, which means you need a little additional to help to pick off the zealot and the hellion seems like the only unit for the job. The EMP is obviously a must need for almost any protoss game. Ok, before I start sounding like I’m just re-iterating what everyone is already saying, I’ll just end it here with it does seem logical to use a thor/hellion/Viking/ghost combo, but difficult to mass mech quickly, which means it gets pretty costly both in resources and time. So you have to be even more vigilant in not losing the units and constantly repairing them.
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On February 18 2011 02:09 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:03 Jumbled wrote:On February 17 2011 22:54 Mercury- wrote:
Except that Toss can indeed 1a into the mech. That's what's wrong with it, you give up all the mobility and map control but don't get any real advantages in battle for it. Against decent Protoss players that is. While protoss can 1a into mech in the right circumstances, they can't simply do it any time they like. When a protoss does take on a mech army head-on, they've generally spent some time building up a composition designed for that purpose, which means chargelots, immortals, often colossi for the extra range to hit the tanks, and sometimes phoenixes to lift tanks during the attack. What that means is that mech can achieve a good contain, but you shouldn't expect it to last forever. You have to either close the deal or tech-switch. However, I agree that mass tanks as your main force isn't the best option in TvP. Thors are definitely scarier to the protoss army overall, and make a good core for your forces with the right upgrades and support. Uh, it's not like the Protoss wouldn't get Immo/Chargelot/Colossus regardless lol Phoenixes arguably aren't even needed.
If you have that the Terran has Thor/Emp/Helion/2-3 Tanks which means it's an even fight.
People need to realize that you cannot just 1a mech. It never was that way in BW, and still isn't that way in SC2. You have to have good positioning, good macro, good army management, and you need to constantly harass with Helions/Medivac drops to keep P economy in check, because in both games once the P hits critical mass econ it's very hard to stop him from doing either an air switch, or he'd run you over with Templar/Gateway. Same concepts apply here in SC2, it's just that mech is a little weaker to compensate the fact that the Ghost cripples P in head on fights.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades.
Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable.
Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots.
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Would replacing SCVs with mules be a viable lategame strat vs toss? An orbital is essentially 3 scvs if you mule constantly, so by the time you have 6 orbitals you can essentially saturate 1 mineral line with no scvs. You'd still need scvs on gas and you'll still keep scvs here an there to finish off almost mined out bases. But once you get enough orbitals wouldn't a supply bump of 30-40 supply allow you to have a big enough deathball to actually just bully the Protoss deathball?
(yes, I'm suggesting you kill off 30-40 scvs in the lategame to give you a bigger army.
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One of the biggest problems with going mech imo is blink stalkers. Mech is very strong one some maps, where you can force the toss to attack at a certain spot, and with turrets+reactor vikings air shouldnt be that much of a hassle.
For instance going mech on LT, and trying to get a third base, makes it a pain to defend against blink stalkers. Thors and tanks are very slow and hellions really dont cut it vs stalkers.
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3k Diamond Terran, bioball into tanks. Maybe my opponents did something wrong, but by the time i get my third (PF). Everything is rallying there and then just get up in there face and deny the third.
At that point you can take the map, really just have your forces in arcs so collosus/templar play is diminished as much as possible.
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On February 17 2011 11:19 PaleBlueDot wrote:This was pretty funny. Thors in low numbers can beat colossi, but honestly that rarely happens. More often you'll get a semi-turtle protoss who will not move out unless you screw up early, and them moves out off of 3 bases (2 on some maps) with 6-8 collo + (immortal or void vs. mech armor) + zealots where the zealots and X support keep the thors out of range while one volley of that many collos murder the thor line. More often its vikings that beat colossi, its only the thors when the gateway units get rolled under whatever circumstances. Show nested quote +On Februaru 17 2011 11:14 Fadestep wrote:
I want to be the troll here and say, "Oh really, it's been a year and Terran finally have developed a strategy other than massing Tier 1 all game in every match up?".
Instead I will just say from a Protoss prospective, I am not really scared of tanks. I feel like the only thing Terran has an advantage of against Protoss late game is their mobility/drops/ability to snipe tech. By going tank you give that advantage to Protoss, and still leave with them the tools to kill your mech. Void ray/immortal/zealot or something of the sort depending on how Terran builds crushes mech pretty handily. 3 armor zealot bombs are also pretty funny.
I dunno. I feel like bringing some tanks is important, but I think air is really where Terran will end up going against Protoss. You don't want to be the troll? You already play protoss, might as well go all out.
lol omg i love the terran tears, ive been waiting so long for these.
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I tested mass hellions against a fairly decent 4gate today and was able to hold. My build was:
12rax
13gas
-> bunker around 20 - 2-3 marines as minerals allowed
@100gas -> factory
@50 gas -> reactor on barracks
@100 gas -> factory
@25 gas -> tech lab on barracks
@150 gas -> blue flame
this was all accomplishable in good time off of the one gas
by the time the 4gate hits you should have a bunker with 2-3 marines as well as 3-4hellions. I needed to pull some scvs but luckily every 30 seconds another 3 hellions pop, and blue flame is up for the second wave of 4gate, and if its a really fast 1gas 4gate then they will have to have some zealots which basically become free kills.
I didn't go into the late game because I just massed up hellions and killed his entire army eventually with just the hellions, it will be more interesting to test into the late game but I thought it was interesting that this WAS a successful mech opening that held a 6minute 4gate.
I also tested with a friend and found that in large numbers hellions can easily beat gateway units for cost (where gas = minerals), I was microing my hellions first up close like roaches into kindve a surround and fire method, later in smaller numbers i just tried to take maximum advantage of the splash through good positioning. He tried to micro his stalkers around but he didnt do a great job.
Now this is still very much a work in process, so obviously if the toss didnt 4 gate I would have to cut hellion production at some point to expand and then the eventual idea is to get thors and air to supplement the hellions. I think its important to get 1stargate quickly to allow for hellion drops, so since u already have the infrastructure I think that a reactor on the starport would be the right decision since you can pretty much definitely expect a reaction of collosus (void rays would also be countered by this)
Since u have so many hellions hanging around it seems pretty obvious that you should be doing hellion drops and harassing at their expansion.
I am imagining after expanding throwing down another factory and making 1xthor 6xhellion and either 1xbanshee or 2x viking. I would put a tech lab on the 3rd factory so that you can make another thor when gas allows (probably not often).
I imagine an intelligent player would react to this build by making mass stalkers and transitioning into collosus so the biggest problem is going to be how to hold against the collosus. I think the idea would be to try to kite back the zealots with your hellions, kiting back behind the thors if necessary and once the zealots are dead, running straight up to the stalker line to try to do maximum damage (hellions are disposable). The main dps though is going to be thors so you want the thors to survive as long as possible the hellions DO play a dps role though so its gonna be important to get them in there and get +dmg upgrades. I am also thinking that strike cannons will be much more viable without any zealots blocking your thors from reaching the collosus, this means that the protoss will have to be kiting you back or get owned.
A big question would be, can you afford to make a quick starport for hellion drops or do you need to rush to thors faster in order to hold large numbers of stalkers/sentries.
Anyway massive theorycraft alert, unfortunately I don't have a ton of time to test this out this weekend but I will try. Hopefully this writeup will give people an idea to start working on. Its obviously gonna really depend on having the right ratio of vikings to ground units vs collosus, but thats hardly a new skill for us in TvP.
Other protoss compositions:
HTs - owned by hellions and thors, easy to escape storm, lots of hp, go down instnatly to hellions
voids - already have vikings
phenoix - destroyed by thors
mass gateway - hellions means no zealots, thors kill everything else with hellion meatshield and splash support damage
Other weaknesses - starport opening - this build basically has no defence against a starport opening so if you scout 2gas and your thinking its gonna be tech, you need to change it up immediately, I think that making alot of turrets and doing a blue flame drop since they are on 1 could be very effective
You can easily beat DTs with this build even without a turret by firing on your buildings/other units with the hellions and since u have a ton, the splash should get the (light and lowhp) dts.
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Diamond terran here, this post has all-in all covered alot of the grounds on PvT lategame and unless i have missed the posts somewhere i have yet seen anyone mention drops and how important they are lategame.
By the time the protoss and yourself are on 2/3 bases you really will have wanted to tech to something silightly higher than MM and once i have enough mech to hold my bases i will use the marines that seem pretty useless late game to do drops, MM drops are very effective lategame against protoss and really can prevent them from expanding anywhere risky, aswell as this the drops act alot like it would for muta PvZ where alot of the time 1 drop will often make the other player over-react and bring his whole deathball back inside base giving you time to move out and position up for the big encounter, aswell as gaining more time for yourself if needed and maybe additional scouting on the enemy.
The big mech encounter is where most terran go wrong,, you need to look at his and your own army if you are too tank heavy you need to bring the toss into a choke but other than that terran would 100% benefit from big open spaces and a decent arc on the enemy, Thors in an arc backed up by tanks and bio usually destroy any ground army they encounter.. The protoss army however with its colossus and HT's and forcefields works best with its enemy bunched up in a choke to get max AOE and splash damage, so be carful when advancing terran and make sure you dont get caught with ya pants down lategame out of position :p
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On February 18 2011 02:47 CleverDream wrote:
Plat Protoss here. It seems the only time we have an advantage over Terran is in the late game.
Early game transitions are in Terran's Favor. You can always open reaper and force stalkers, then to follow up with maurauders.
Mid game. MMM to pin us to our base while you expand freely. Its only until after we get storm+amulet that we have an actual advantage. Colossi isn't even an option since its not hard to get a few vikings out (since you already have the Starport).
Late game. Carrier, Mothership, Storm, mass warp gate, Protoss finally has an advantage. And then transition starts over again (somewhat, since you want to rebuild your army ASAP).
Rarely my games will go into late game. It will usually end much much sooner. Maybe at my level, late game just means who's macro is more consistent.
@palebluedot: Playing toss is trolling because _______? Maybe I shouldn't feed it but if its base on something I would like to know why you think that. I mean its not like we can make a banshee....
Plat protoss.
That's all. I'm sorry, the difference in level is just huge. Trying to do early game damage as terran has just become suicide.
@palebluedot: Playing toss is trolling because _______? Maybe I shouldn't feed it but if its base on something I would like to know why you think that. I mean its not like we can make a banshee....
No, you make DT's and expand. You basically end up ahead or even against ANY bio opening.
Anyway, I really liked Gretorps build at Gretorp and Friends. He basically had a Marine/marauder/vikings/banshee/thor/ghost. Unit combination, and it completely rolled. But it's EXTREMELY difficult to get there. Also TT1's unit combo against it was probably the worst you can do. But it basically was the normal Gateway collosus ball.
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To people talking about banshee play -
Back in sept/october I used to love playing banshees against toss, I would really make as many as i could with tanks, but this is when protoss didn't even know what a phoenix was it seemed...
Now a day I don't like banshees against toss at all really, they are just too hard countered by phoenix templar and cannons. The only match up I really like banshees in is vT
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I've been experimenting with mech play in TvP for about the last 2 month at average masters level (2900), my experience is as follows. The only stable openers i could get to work involved either early bio play (with 2+ rax) or 1/1/1. FE can also work of 1 or 2 rax, but it significantly delays your tech and most times i was better of with a 1/1/1 into expand as i was able to level the eco with harass instead.
The reason you basically have to either 2+ rax or 1/1/1 is simple - stargate openings. Without the marines from 2+ barracks or vikings, you'll have a lot of trouble vs either voidray or phoenix play. Also, DT openings spell trouble if you don't have a starport in time. This is why i recommend a 1/1/1 variant when opting to play mech. It can involve blue flame hellion drop (my favourite), banshee play or tanks - followed up by either a quick expansion or a strong timing push using a raven.
After you expand, add 2 more factories and start producing thor/hellion, use your starport to get a couple vikings. You'll also want to get a couple tanks, but DO NOT overdo on tanks. Thors are better than tanks in virtually any situation against toss. The reason you get a couple is to get positional advantage (higher range than collossi). Also, don't be shy on the hellions, they'll basically become the core unit of your army - cheap, fast, expendable. Try to lose hellions instead of gas units whereever you can. The key to success with mech is to get critical mass - you'll never get there if you keep losing thors in skirmishes. Also, utilize hellions for drops and runbies to keep the protoss economy down. Even if he has 2-3 stalkers at his mineral line, you'll still be able to kill a lot of probes.
Use the map control you get from hellions to take a quick third and add 2-3 more factories and get those upgrades. With hellion/thor/viking there really is very little the protoss can do to stop you. When i got to this point, the only thing that stopped me was an unscouted mass air switch (voids or carriers). Scout for mass stargates !
The only weaknesses of the thor are zealots, armored air units and to some extend, microd collossi. All of those can be easily handled by either hellions or vikings. Tanks on the other hand, are only really good vs nonblink stalkers and collossi. They die to zealots, blinkstalkers, air, immortals and even storm. That is on top of being immobile, having a blind spot and doing friedly fire.
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On February 18 2011 06:00 Lurk wrote:
I've been experimenting with mech play in TvP for about the last 2 month at average masters level (2900), my experience is as follows. The only stable openers i could get to work involved either early bio play (with 2+ rax) or 1/1/1. FE can also work of 1 or 2 rax, but it significantly delays your tech and most times i was better of with a 1/1/1 into expand as i was able to level the eco with harass instead.
The reason you basically have to either 2+ rax or 1/1/1 is simple - stargate openings. Without the marines from 2+ barracks or vikings, you'll have a lot of trouble vs either voidray or phoenix play. Also, DT openings spell trouble if you don't have a starport in time. This is why i recommend a 1/1/1 variant when opting to play mech. It can involve blue flame hellion drop (my favourite), banshee play or tanks - followed up by either a quick expansion or a strong timing push using a raven.
After you expand, add 2 more factories and start producing thor/hellion, use your starport to get a couple vikings. You'll also want to get a couple tanks, but DO NOT overdo on tanks. Thors are better than tanks in virtually any situation against toss. The reason you get a couple is to get positional advantage (higher range than collossi). Also, don't be shy on the hellions, they'll basically become the core unit of your army - cheap, fast, expendable. Try to lose hellions instead of gas units whereever you can. The key to success with mech is to get critical mass - you'll never get there if you keep losing thors in skirmishes. Also, utilize hellions for drops and runbies to keep the protoss economy down. Even if he has 2-3 stalkers at his mineral line, you'll still be able to kill a lot of probes.
Use the map control you get from hellions to take a quick third and add 2-3 more factories and get those upgrades. With hellion/thor/viking there really is very little the protoss can do to stop you. When i got to this point, the only thing that stopped me was an unscouted mass air switch (voids or carriers). Scout for mass stargates !
The only weaknesses of the thor are zealots, armored air units and to some extend, microd collossi. All of those can be easily handled by either hellions or vikings. Tanks on the other hand, are only really good vs nonblink stalkers and collossi. They die to zealots, blinkstalkers, air, immortals and even storm. That is on top of being immobile, having a blind spot and doing friedly fire.
I like the idea of your play, however immorts counter thors very hard while the only thing that counters immorts are marines ghosts or banshees.
It seemes to be a huge problem is that the second you go pure mech, toss gets double robo and can chronoboost a shit ton of immorts and over run you so fast.
What about a MMM+Thor+A few tanks mix. It seems like your mech in this MU really needs some fodder to stay alive along enough to do its damage.
I do agree tho hellions
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Surprised at how many people think Tanks are a good lategame transition, I've always found them to be awful considering how they perform vs Zealots and even HT. I'll see templar incoming, grab 2 tanks and focus fire the templar (in siege mode), then be like "oh... yeah... it doesn't kill it, fml." And with Zealots? Jesus, isn't it like 5 shots? That's terrible. Blink stalkers helps close the gaps in on them, void rays dominate, and a carrier transition will dominate. They aren't good vs Colossus or Immortals (you ever try to fight like 10 siege tanks vs like 7 colossus? the colossus will roll you). They are only good vs stalkers, and like I said, they are worse than tanks were vs goons in BW because of less dmg output, faster unit, and blink.
I have the super aggressive playstyle other people were referring to, except I include ravens and quite a large number of ghosts. Bio really isn't that gas intensive, so it usually goes to Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, and upgrades.
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I do think that Thors are the way for terran on lategame cuz they can hold colosus fairly and they negate storms.. once u get ghost hellions and vikings into the mix which depedns on ur scouting u can face maxed army by toss, just be sure u got atleast 2 facs with reactor to be able to hold the 2ed wave of warpin zealots...
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On February 18 2011 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote:
Surprised at how many people think Tanks are a good lategame transition, I've always found them to be awful considering how they perform vs Zealots and even HT. I'll see templar incoming, grab 2 tanks and focus fire the templar (in siege mode), then be like "oh... yeah... it doesn't kill it, fml." And with Zealots? Jesus, isn't it like 5 shots? That's terrible. Blink stalkers helps close the gaps in on them, void rays dominate, and a carrier transition will dominate. They aren't good vs Colossus or Immortals (you ever try to fight like 10 siege tanks vs like 7 colossus? the colossus will roll you). They are only good vs stalkers, and like I said, they are worse than tanks were vs goons in BW because of less dmg output, faster unit, and blink.
I have the super aggressive playstyle other people were referring to, except I include ravens and quite a large number of ghosts. Bio really isn't that gas intensive, so it usually goes to Thors, Ghosts, Ravens, and upgrades.
It depends on what the tanks are coupled with and their upgrades.
Plus 3 tanks with mech support are amazing, and smash any ranged units the toss has.
Tanks supporting bio is terrible, the tanks always ended up slashing your own bio and doing shit damage.
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On February 18 2011 03:55 statikg wrote:
I tested mass hellions against a fairly decent 4gate today and was able to hold. My build was:
12rax
13gas
-> bunker around 20 - 2-3 marines as minerals allowed
@100gas -> factory
@50 gas -> reactor on barracks
@100 gas -> factory
@25 gas -> tech lab on barracks
@150 gas -> blue flame
this was all accomplishable in good time off of the one gas
by the time the 4gate hits you should have a bunker with 2-3 marines as well as 3-4hellions. I needed to pull some scvs but luckily every 30 seconds another 3 hellions pop, and blue flame is up for the second wave of 4gate, and if its a really fast 1gas 4gate then they will have to have some zealots which basically become free kills.
I didn't go into the late game because I just massed up hellions and killed his entire army eventually with just the hellions, it will be more interesting to test into the late game but I thought it was interesting that this WAS a successful mech opening that held a 6minute 4gate.
I also tested with a friend and found that in large numbers hellions can easily beat gateway units for cost (where gas = minerals), I was microing my hellions first up close like roaches into kindve a surround and fire method, later in smaller numbers i just tried to take maximum advantage of the splash through good positioning. He tried to micro his stalkers around but he didnt do a great job.
Now this is still very much a work in process, so obviously if the toss didnt 4 gate I would have to cut hellion production at some point to expand and then the eventual idea is to get thors and air to supplement the hellions. I think its important to get 1stargate quickly to allow for hellion drops, so since u already have the infrastructure I think that a reactor on the starport would be the right decision since you can pretty much definitely expect a reaction of collosus (void rays would also be countered by this)
Since u have so many hellions hanging around it seems pretty obvious that you should be doing hellion drops and harassing at their expansion.
I am imagining after expanding throwing down another factory and making 1xthor 6xhellion and either 1xbanshee or 2x viking. I would put a tech lab on the 3rd factory so that you can make another thor when gas allows (probably not often).
I imagine an intelligent player would react to this build by making mass stalkers and transitioning into collosus so the biggest problem is going to be how to hold against the collosus. I think the idea would be to try to kite back the zealots with your hellions, kiting back behind the thors if necessary and once the zealots are dead, running straight up to the stalker line to try to do maximum damage (hellions are disposable). The main dps though is going to be thors so you want the thors to survive as long as possible the hellions DO play a dps role though so its gonna be important to get them in there and get +dmg upgrades. I am also thinking that strike cannons will be much more viable without any zealots blocking your thors from reaching the collosus, this means that the protoss will have to be kiting you back or get owned.
A big question would be, can you afford to make a quick starport for hellion drops or do you need to rush to thors faster in order to hold large numbers of stalkers/sentries.
Anyway massive theorycraft alert, unfortunately I don't have a ton of time to test this out this weekend but I will try. Hopefully this writeup will give people an idea to start working on. Its obviously gonna really depend on having the right ratio of vikings to ground units vs collosus, but thats hardly a new skill for us in TvP.
Other protoss compositions:
HTs - owned by hellions and thors, easy to escape storm, lots of hp, go down instnatly to hellions
voids - already have vikings
phenoix - destroyed by thors
mass gateway - hellions means no zealots, thors kill everything else with hellion meatshield and splash support damage
Other weaknesses - starport opening - this build basically has no defence against a starport opening so if you scout 2gas and your thinking its gonna be tech, you need to change it up immediately, I think that making alot of turrets and doing a blue flame drop since they are on 1 could be very effective
You can easily beat DTs with this build even without a turret by firing on your buildings/other units with the hellions and since u have a ton, the splash should get the (light and lowhp) dts.
Replay pls !
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Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP.
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On February 18 2011 06:14 XXXSmOke wrote:I like the idea of your play, however immorts counter thors very hard while the only thing that counters immorts are marines ghosts or banshees.
It seemes to be a huge problem is that the second you go pure mech, toss gets double robo and can chronoboost a shit ton of immorts and over run you so fast.
What about a MMM+Thor+A few tanks mix. It seems like your mech in this MU really needs some fodder to stay alive along enough to do its damage.
I do agree tho hellions
This is how most protoss think ... before they lose. The answer to thors is not immortals. Let me explain why.
First, there is strike cannon - yes, it does take some micro but it completely shuts down an equal number of immortals, if you go heavy thor that's easily 5-6 immortals just evaporating. Next, there is range - 7 range on thors vs 5 on immortals. With your gigantic hellion ball in front of your thors, only the front row of immortals will be in range - and that's the one getting blasted by your strike cannons . That is, if the protoss actually micros his immortals to shoot on your thors, not the hellions, and he doesn't get blocked by his stalkers. Also, with the hellion ball in front, the immortals shields will drain quite fast - if you didn't bring 1-2 ghosts to nullify the shields anyway.
Immortals only work good vs thors if they don't have support or strike cannons or you vastly outnumber the thors (like 2:1). And even then, only in small scale engagements, since the larger the battle becomes, the more problems you will get with the immortals small range.
I have failed with thors, but never against heavy immortal play.
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In a perfect world, the best unit comp would be an army full of gas heavy units : marauders, thors, tanks, medivacs, vikings, ghosts, banshees, and some mineral dump units like hellions. that's 775 gas to get one of each. To produce the bare minimum of that, you'd need at least 8 gases with enough minerals and mules/scvs to accommodate that much resource spending, not to mention the upgrades and production facilities that come with that.
Getting to a 4base econ is extremely difficult. Keeping your 4base econ is damn near impossible. There is no safe and quick way to get 4 bases saturated and keep them saturated.
Then the idea becomes, "What can we sacrifice? What works that's economically feasible?" So far, all I've found is that the only thing that works is if you keep your units alive.
I've been testing a 1raxFE into 2rax marine/ghost to cover the transition into mech or banshees. With unupgraded marines and EMP, marines can usually melt most of the toss army. It can also deflect most 4gates with bunkers. I tried using this opening to cover the transition to tier 2 and 3 units, but then I found I had no money to produce units with. It took me forever to get enough tanks and thors to match the toss army; I still got rolled in the end.
There simply isn't enough money to go around even on 2bases to produce a working mid-game army that hold's it's ground vs 2-3 collosi and can eventually top late game armies with 5-6 collosi.
The resources are too spread out between scvs, cc's, production buldings, expensive units, and time. It takes way too long to set up a late game army, and by the time we're there, Toss already has half the map with a better army.
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I am using this build i have developed on maps like xelnaga where nat his hard to defend (or bunker up correctly)
This starts with no gas to get fastest CC and OC possible (on ur main)
When starting CC i get fastest 2 gas bunker on ramp and go staright for fastest thor possible
When fac is done, asap starts armormy and 1 hellion before tech for scouting, also the extra OC will give more scans if hellion failed to scout properly,
The Extra OC will give alot of minerals early so that will be good used with another rax for more marines.
After u started producing ur 1st thor, u have 3 goals:
1. Ghost asap
2. marines marines marines
3. Reactored startport
When yout 1st thor is out, u can feel free to take ur nat with ur thor and bunch of marines to safely secure it vs any kind of attack (nothing have ever breaked me there with thor+marines+ghost on 10 min) and if u find really hard pressure, dont forget to pull ur SCV to autorepair the thor.
Usally after ur nat is secured u should start cutting marines production and move to blue flame hellions (unless ur scouted VRs), and start harassin with sneak attcks and drops, and mainly just get map control - Your hellions are your "speedlings".
Few point:
1. Get Armor vechiale asap
2. Have atleast 2 ghost with ur army all the time
3. DONT EVER leave ur thors w/o hellions cover - Wrost case scenario is that ur Thors get surrounded by zealots
4. If you scout immos - research cannon.
5. Vikings r still necessary vs colosus.
6. All gas should go to thors vikings and upgrades while spare minerals will go to hellions (Means: No Marines late game - Marines are only used early game, unless toss is going stargate, which means he wont have much "anti marines units")
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On February 17 2011 15:26 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:13 Touch wrote:On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote:On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks. This is so true. The mech army is the worlds most immobile force and needs to be practical impossible to kill. You beat it by out macroing with more bases slowly chipping at it and by abusing its mobility. Not 1a into the mech. Only problem is, they don't need to. 1a is the hard counter to mech.
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On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP.
Thors are a ridiculously strong asset to have lategame if your opponent is massing chargelots, so idk what you're talking about.
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I just lost any hope on tanks in TvP since they got nerf vs light.
I m just using alot of hellions and thors mixing with 2 ghosts and few vikings... thats my mech for TvP.. the hellions gives me great map control and lots of dead probes, i just prey for toss to go mass zealots
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3.3k Masters Terran
Agreed, tanks aren't great TvP, especially lategame. Even with emp, zealots destroy tanks. Also the fact that rebuild time for T armies take FOREVER for mech...
Maybe for P, there should be some type of diminished returns for warping in units in terms of distance from the gateway itself.
Warping in close to the gateway: no DR, warping in far away, larger cooldown, maybe that might balance it?
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It's too bad they didn't leave tanks at a flat 50 damage per shot. I feel the nerf to light had little to no effect on tvz, a mild effect on tvt, and was most hurtful in tvp. Would be interesting to see what tvp would be like currently if the change never went through.
In any case, I've been toying with the idea of going for a mix of mass thors/marauder/viking, with hellions/ghosts/tanks sprinkled in. I think tanks are just a bad option for damage dealing considering their expensive cost, weak damage to light, and relative ease of killing. I feel like having 4-5 max would be optimal in a maxed army as something that can be used to outrange protoss so you're not getting constantly poked by colossi.
Just a low level diamond giving my two cents.
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Another possible Idea.
Start with a 2 fac opening Hellion/tanks/marines to secure your FE. With your FE up for for a traditional 5 fact mech with upgrades using hellion harass like crazy do drops, run bys, whatever it takes to keep him on his toes while your getting your 2-1 upgrades(flash style anyone?)
Heres the differance tho one thing that is largely overlooked is the power of Terran buildings in SC2
-Sensor tower: This building is invaluable late game, being able to tell where the deathball is huge it can allow for you to get the extra few seconds to get yourself in a better position versus the deathball
-Bunker: Salvage is ridiclously good and needs to be used more often. My idea is based on bunkers, instead of using it for the intended use (w rines obviously) Why not use Bunkers in essence as a meat shield for your tanks/ hellions. Some strategic bunkers can clump the enemy's units or waste attacks as they are hitting the bunks and not your units. Imagine walling off with bunkers and the enemy trys to attack. All the zeals would be stuck hitting the bunkers and his stalks and immortals wouldnt be able to get in range to hit the tanks til the bunker wall is down. Im thinking about doing a leap frog bunker with salvage.
For example on Xel Naga that gold base is a perfect forward position to take vs the enemy. Imagine if you had a ton of bunkers all around that center position with a good tank spread. Using sensor towers you could easily react to where he will attack your perimeter.
When its time to attack you can treat the bunker wall just like spider mines in BW. Salvage them, get your money back and reposition your wall on a forward attack front, till you can starve the protoss.
This would be perfect with that +2 armor upgrade as well.
Im going to try this tonight and il get some screenshots of my walls. But for your imagination maybe this will make sense
B=Bunk
S=Supply
T=Tank
A typical perimeter will consist of
T
T Sensor T T
T T
B B B B S B B B B B
If the enemy attacks this front (bunks will be unit tight no units will have to go through the supply depot.) If he right clicks all of his units will go down through the narrow supply depot which is perfect for your hellions to roast and get the splash they need along with the tanks. If he tries to destory your wall then your siege tanks can get a couple extra shots in which with +3 attack is quite nasty. Also keep in mind you will have turrets spread nicely as well to stop observers. This will confuse the enemy because he wont be able to see any weak spots in your encampment(much like BW)
Edit* Tank diagram got screwed, but you know spread them out nicely like in BW, make sure you have a few tanks right on the bunker line tho so the toss cant just use collsi range to snipe your bunks.
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On February 18 2011 02:47 CleverDream wrote:
Plat Protoss here. It seems the only time we have an advantage over Terran is in the late game.
Early game transitions are in Terran's Favor. You can always open reaper and force stalkers, then to follow up with maurauders.
Mid game. MMM to pin us to our base while you expand freely. Its only until after we get storm+amulet that we have an actual advantage. Colossi isn't even an option since its not hard to get a few vikings out (since you already have the Starport).
Late game. Carrier, Mothership, Storm, mass warp gate, Protoss finally has an advantage. And then transition starts over again (somewhat, since you want to rebuild your army ASAP).
Rarely my games will go into late game. It will usually end much much sooner. Maybe at my level, late game just means who's macro is more consistent.
@palebluedot: Playing toss is trolling because _______? Maybe I shouldn't feed it but if its base on something I would like to know why you think that. I mean its not like we can make a banshee....
Seems like you just don't know any timings. There's countless Protoss 1 and 2 base allins.
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On February 18 2011 10:09 XXXSmOke wrote:
Another possible Idea.
Start with a 2 fac opening Hellion/tanks/marines to secure your FE. With your FE up for for a traditional 5 fact mech with upgrades using hellion harass like crazy do drops, run bys, whatever it takes to keep him on his toes while your getting your 2-1 upgrades(flash style anyone?)
Heres the differance tho one thing that is largely overlooked is the power of Terran buildings in SC2
-Sensor tower: This building is invaluable late game, being able to tell where the deathball is huge it can allow for you to get the extra few seconds to get yourself in a better position versus the deathball
-Bunker: Salvage is ridiclously good and needs to be used more often. My idea is based on bunkers, instead of using it for the intended use (w rines obviously) Why not use Bunkers in essence as a meat shield for your tanks/ hellions. Some strategic bunkers can clump the enemy's units or waste attacks as they are hitting the bunks and not your units. Imagine walling off with bunkers and the enemy trys to attack. All the zeals would be stuck hitting the bunkers and his stalks and immortals wouldnt be able to get in range to hit the tanks til the bunker wall is down. Im thinking about doing a leap frog bunker with salvage.
For example on Xel Naga that gold base is a perfect forward position to take vs the enemy. Imagine if you had a ton of bunkers all around that center position with a good tank spread. Using sensor towers you could easily react to where he will attack your perimeter.
When its time to attack you can treat the bunker wall just like spider mines in BW. Salvage them, get your money back and reposition your wall on a forward attack front, till you can starve the protoss.
This would be perfect with that +2 armor upgrade as well.
Im going to try this tonight and il get some screenshots of my walls. But for your imagination maybe this will make sense
B=Bunk
S=Supply
T=Tank
A typical perimeter will consist of
T
T Sensor T T
T T
B B B B S B B B B B
If the enemy attacks this front (bunks will be unit tight no units will have to go through the supply depot.) If he right clicks all of his units will go down through the narrow supply depot which is perfect for your hellions to roast and get the splash they need along with the tanks. If he tries to destory your wall then your siege tanks can get a couple extra shots in which with +3 attack is quite nasty. Also keep in mind you will have turrets spread nicely as well to stop observers. This will confuse the enemy because he wont be able to see any weak spots in your encampment(much like BW)
Edit* Tank diagram got screwed, but you know spread them out nicely like in BW, make sure you have a few tanks right on the bunker line tho so the toss cant just use collsi range to snipe your bunks.
Check out nama on DreamHack, he did excatly what u was talking about.
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Hmmm First test was interesting with my building+Hellion+tank build
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_17_04.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_23_00.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_28_19.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_28_37.jpg)
Heres a couple sample photos, im terrible with image stuff I tried resizing on photobucket but it didnt work. If you want better quality my photobucket page is
http://s911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/
The test was sick, the toss had to break the wall to even start working on my tanks, these extra hits smashed all the gateway units then I was able to use my hellions to work down the immortal shields.
This was vs a computer so now im going to start testing vs the real thing and see what happens.,
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Disregarding that you will have problems running back and forth to guard your 4th/5th, how exactly does that fortress kill P/stop him before carriers?
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On February 18 2011 03:30 mesohawny wrote:
lol omg i love the terran tears, ive been waiting so long for these.
Didn't know my tears fell all the way down to silver.
But seriously, I do not see how the mass bunkers is going to help the matchup (at least with no infantry in them :/). I don't think you'd be building bunkers before you are maxed, and even then sinking your minerals into bunkers (even though you can get some of it back) seems like a bad idea vs. just making a lot more production facilities (of anything) or just turret spamming vulnerable places. That and the mass bunker walls would cause pushing to be even slower than before, so I can see protoss just getting maxed, not attacking into bunkers, and just putting down like 14 stargates and getting ready to unload carriers on you the second their army dies.
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Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this.
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
yea that's definitely an unbiased and reliable source LOL.
as far as unit compositions go, I think PainUser has taken a step in the right direction with hellion marauder banshee thor. As we hit the mid-late game we too need a strong backbone and not just endless disposable units. If we are to use thors as the backbone we have to consider the scenarios which may occur.
Currently there are 2 main problems that we would run into with a very thor heavy army.
The first would be a large immortal count, which yes....can be cured via an EMP as well as strike cannons but its actually pretty difficult to consistently make either of those work. Strike cannons sometimes start to go off but the thors are dieing as the animation is starting LOL and with EMP radius its tough to get every immortal's shield down + even once the shield is down their dmg is still quite fkn high vs thors.
The second is zealots and as marines becomes worthless in any large engagement in the mid-late we have to resort to hellions, but that still leaves the issue of immortals.
I feel like the answer to both of these is banshees, u can reliably kill immortals with banshees and doing 10dmg/volley instead of 12 is not that big of a loss. Pheonixs are not a particularly great answer as their range to kill banshees is their downfall with thor range.
So i guess to sum up, we need to have a unit composition that is reliable which means not relying on this semi gimmicky 'oh god i hope this works' strike cannon shit. Thor+hellion+banshee is solid, and worst case scenario you force alot of air but u'll have reactored factories to swap with your starports. Things like ravens and ghosts can be incorporated but please never rely on emp to win you an engagement, instead use it as something that might give you that extra edge.
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On February 18 2011 15:12 naventus wrote:
Disregarding that you will have problems running back and forth to guard your 4th/5th, how exactly does that fortress kill P/stop him before carriers?
Sensor towers help so much in stopping raids on 4th and 5th, I also usually put 2 tanks at each expo, that plus hellions stops any gay raids they do.
Carriers are exactly what you want him to go, if anybody commits to heavy air T has the best reaction. Reactored vikings clean up so fast, and you can get them out amazing fast. If you stop his air then he is truly hurt as his ground will be way weaker now that he commited alot of money to air.
Just tested some games vs a Master P and thats exactly what he tried to do was go air, once I reacted correctly with vikings I simply salvage all my bunks up and destory his expos before he can transition out of air. Its just like BW man, the sec P went carriers the T had 9310931 goliaths to snipe them. You can do the same thing with two reactor ports.
The defense is so damn solid its unbelivable. By the time they break through they have lost so many units. I thought immortals would be a huge problem for tanks, however if you micro your helllions you can focus fire the hellions to knock their shields out(immortals are usually clumped) the second those shields are down my tanks just rape.
This combined with pure hellion harass all game is so deadly, even with cannons, if i send 6 hellions into an expo the P will lose a shit ton of probes. I keep wearing the P down until I can get a comfortable position to begin my offensive. And ill tell you what its amazing to have a "movable fortress thanks to salvage.
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Fair Warning: I am currently Silver. If that bothers you please disregard this message.
I had been thinking of ways to boost my macro game against toss. Knowing thors rock but also knowing a thor rush can cripple me if it fails, I had been trying other strats. The recent 2 rax FE was a good start, but too turtle for me...if I just sat there and let it become a deathball race (thor marine vs toss deathball of choice) I would win some, lose some...but I wanted more. Then, along comes this thread. Hmmm...thors are good...I need a late game transition without just massing MMM...so lets mix in thors with upgrades after the FE instead of mass upgrading infantry! Huzzah, it seems to be quite viable.
My general goal is to open with my variation on the 2 rax fe (usally toss in another rax to help bulk up and before I expo I'll feign a bunker rush to put them on the defensive) and then massed up marine/thor while occassionally throwing a pile of marines at the front in the hopes of scouting some, forcing defenders and making the toss think "Oh yeah, more mass marines from a terran" and get collosus or templar, both of which in reasonable numbers thor/marien can handle. Or better yet they mass gateway units...woo hooo!
Anyway, I know my play sucks...not good yet at adding in ghosts, trying to add in vikings/ravens/ whatever counter I feel i'll need. Getting better though, and if I can do it at my level surely a higher leaguer could pull it off in a higher league.
Three replays from tonight if anyone is interested. Two wins and a loss agaisnt toss with this build.
(Replays added)
Game 1: Win
Toss goes gateway heavy and mixes in cols and immortals. Thor marine cleans up nicely.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141272-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
Game 2: Loss
I turtle too hard, don't apply enoguh pressure and get hit with a deathball before I was up to snuff. I lost, but a lot of it was due to my poor unit control I believe. I think the build could have won here.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141274-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war
Game 3: Win
Toss sees the early marine action and masses up templar and gateway units. Temps cause trouble for the marines and repairing scv's, but storms just wont finish a thor.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141276-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
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On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP.
I actually tried this, it worked really well, BUT BUT BUT BUT, i lost LOL. No but jokes aside, this is really strong but what i ran into was it actually forces the P to make TONS of zealots 'cause your army basically crushes their gas heavy units. my suggestion is to do this, but make sure you have 2 factories with 2 reactors later game to pump out blue flame hellions, it'll do you wonders!
2900 masters
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On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this.
Just started testing this vs a Master P, still working out the kinks but I can already tell you this may be the solution to us finally using mech and being able to compete with the deathball.
Terran buildings are the replacement for spider mines. With the armor upgrade they give you excellent tanking ability. Your tanks range just shells anything that comes close to your perimeter. Not to mention sensor towers help you see exactly where the deathball is so even if he goes around you can counter him as he goes around.
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When people talk about thors being a strong asset in the late game, have they encountered the situation, where the toss adds 2 void rays into their army? Suddenly the thors shoot their pitiful missiles instead of their cannons and their DPS plumments.
I have the feeling, that upgrades are really troublesome here, because neither air nor bio nor mech alone cuts it. Mech and air are quite gas intensive so you need to have two or even better three bases. That means you need infantry to enable you to expand. This in turn means a lot of barracks and infantry upgrades which will be wasted when you transition out of bio. So ideally you want to keep a bio component for efficiency reasons.
Lately I'm testing a Marauder/Hellion/Viking mix. With some success.
- Marauders: They are the meat and deal with armored ground. You can use them to pressure early and expand behind it. They are reasonably resistant to storm. They have trouble against chargelots and colossi and air of course.
- Hellions: Blue flame hellions have multiple advantages. They cost no gas, they can be produced with a reactor (meaning 4 hellions per factory and minute) and after blue flame upgrade has been researched, they don't rely on upgrades much. They can take care of chargelots, suicide into sentries and HT.
-Vikings: Vikings in sufficient numbers can take care of colossi and toss air. They don't cost too much gas and can be produced from a reactor. If the toss refuses to give the vikings any targets (gateway units only), they can be used to harass by landing in mineral lines.
This mix enables me to open up with 2rax pressure expand with 1 reactor and 1 techlab. I just don't get the marine shield. After expansion I add a factory with a tech lab, a starport with reactor and a barracks with tech lab. I get blue flame and then swap the factory with the reactor rax and end up with 3 tech rax and 1 reactored port and fact each. With the reactored port, I can get medivacs easily for drops, as all three core units have harass potential. Marauder for tech snipes and hellion/viking for killing mineral lines.
Also you are amassing gas with this composition, which allows for multiple add-on units like medivacs, ghosts and maybe reapers. With a steadily expanding number of tech rax, you can use one or two production cycles for reapers, that combine the harass abilities of marauders and hellions and partly negate the need for dropships (depending on the map). Furthermore with the armory busy with air upgrades, a later switch to BCs seems possible.
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On February 18 2011 17:18 Thrombozyt wrote:
When people talk about thors being a strong asset in the late game, have they encountered the situation, where the toss adds 2 void rays into their army? Suddenly the thors shoot their pitiful missiles instead of their cannons and their DPS plumments.
I have the feeling, that upgrades are really troublesome here, because neither air nor bio nor mech alone cuts it. Mech and air are quite gas intensive so you need to have two or even better three bases. That means you need infantry to enable you to expand. This in turn means a lot of barracks and infantry upgrades which will be wasted when you transition out of bio. So ideally you want to keep a bio component for efficiency reasons.
Lately I'm testing a Marauder/Hellion/Viking mix. With some success.
- Marauders: They are the meat and deal with armored ground. You can use them to pressure early and expand behind it. They are reasonably resistant to storm. They have trouble against chargelots and colossi and air of course.
- Hellions: Blue flame hellions have multiple advantages. They cost no gas, they can be produced with a reactor (meaning 4 hellions per factory and minute) and after blue flame upgrade has been researched, they don't rely on upgrades much. They can take care of chargelots, suicide into sentries and HT.
-Vikings: Vikings in sufficient numbers can take care of colossi and toss air. They don't cost too much gas and can be produced from a reactor. If the toss refuses to give the vikings any targets (gateway units only), they can be used to harass by landing in mineral lines.
This mix enables me to open up with 2rax pressure expand with 1 reactor and 1 techlab. I just don't get the marine shield. After expansion I add a factory with a tech lab, a starport with reactor and a barracks with tech lab. I get blue flame and then swap the factory with the reactor rax and end up with 3 tech rax and 1 reactored port and fact each. With the reactored port, I can get medivacs easily for drops, as all three core units have harass potential. Marauder for tech snipes and hellion/viking for killing mineral lines.
Also you are amassing gas with this composition, which allows for multiple add-on units like medivacs, ghosts and maybe reapers. With a steadily expanding number of tech rax, you can use one or two production cycles for reapers, that combine the harass abilities of marauders and hellions and partly negate the need for dropships (depending on the map). Furthermore with the armory busy with air upgrades, a later switch to BCs seems possible.
I dont see this countering a Collsi+Phoenix Army. Once collsi hit a critical mass even rauders get toasted. I dont think theres much a way around focusing on bio anymore. If your relying on a tier 1 unit to deal your damage the protoss will counter you with his deathball. There is just to much aoe potentials for toss in the late game. Storm would hurt your composition as well.
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3k dia T here and I use to just get abused in TvP and felt absolutely hopeless and then I just started slowly adding Thors and blue flame hellions on top of MMM+viking toward the late game and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw how hard Thors rape gateway units and couldn't believe I was leaving them out of my games. Having several thors against the deathball makes your army just so much better and harrassing probe lines with blue flame hellions late game is just too easy. I'm winning like 35% of my TvPs now as opposed to like 8-10% (not an exaggeration) before I started adding Thors and blue flame hellions after templar/collosus tech. I've gotten better at controlling ghosts, too, and have realized their importance in this matchup. So my vote for late game comp is definitely your leftover MMM from the midgame, viking, thor, blue flame hellions, a few tanks, and like 2 ghosts, and they really have to be clutch ghosts. I usually end up with like 4 or 5 rax, 2 starports, and about 4 or 5 facts with two having tech labs. The multipronged attacks are a useful talent to have. blue flame runbys while sniping tech buildings/pylons with rauder drops works wonders.
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Thors seem to be working nicely against most protoss armies, but there has been a few games now where I feel I've lost mostly because I've fallen so behind on upgrades. Something like 2-2 on bio and 1-1 on mech just doesnt seem to cut it against a toss who goes double forge, spams chrono and gets beastly upgrades for all of his army. I guess its something we terrans just have to live with.
Another thing is the map problem: in many places the maps are just too narrow and you get owned by splash damage even with thors. I have no problem taking on the deathball on Shakuras or DQ, but metalopolis or xelnaga can be really tough. With thors the protoss army is actually more mobile than yours, which can also be a big problem.
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On February 17 2011 21:47 SevenTwoOffSuit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 14:26 Touch wrote:
3.5k Terran. Personally, I prefer an aggressive style, which doesn't compliment mech or heavy transitions. So in order to maintain a strong economy, I only expand with Orbitals, upgrade fast, and never cease dropping/expansion sniping/attacking. For me, I think the game is lost against Protoss once they become established with a solid army with equal bases. Late game TvP is really about abusing the immobility of HTs and Colossus, and keeping armies small to reduce their effectiveness. This. I am also a 3.5k terran player, and I've found aggressive bio strategies to be generally effective. MMM armies are extremely cost efficient in small numbers, while protoss is most dangerous when they reach a critical mass of high tech units and can move on the terran bases with a single cohesive army. I think a lot of people seem to think that bio balls should be able to stand toe to toe with a high tech protoss army, and that is simply not true with large supply counts. Even if terran can trade armies with the protoss, large numbers of warpgates and chrono boost means protoss will be able to replace his army faster than the terran. Bio strategies can be very effective, but the terran must be as aggressive as is humanly possible. Drops in multiple locations, tech sniping, and even small land armies roaming the map are essential. The idea is to keep the protoss on the defensive for as long as possible. Ideally, terran should be sufficiently ahead in resources from his aggression to be able to overwhelm the protoss with sheer weight of economy, but often a good protoss can stop even the best bio aggression without suffering too much damage. Often terran will be forced into a late-game confrontation, and in that case it is essential to know the exact unit composition of protoss. If he has more collossi, terran needs more vikings, if he has more templar, more mauraders/ghosts are needed. An underused tactic in late-game TvP is ghost cloaking. Cloaked ghosts can walk right up to the protoss army and EMP everything without risk of getting sniped, and EMP is absolutely essential for a bio army to have any chance of standing even with a late game protoss ball.
This. I'm only a 2.9k terran (but my tvp is my strongest matchup by far), and I think you have to be very aggressive with bio in the early game, because your units are more efficient than his, so all army trades will work greatly to your favor. For example:
Concussive shell upgrade timing -- you can usually pull ahead by a stalker, and then I usually do a soft bunker contain for a minute or so before the second immortal comes out while my second oribtal finishes.
Stim timing -- usually you can snipe an immortal or a couple of sentries as Toss is just getting his natural running, OR you could simply trade your armies for an advantage.
EMP timing -- I like to opt for fast ghosts in my TvP, because I've found the EMP timing attack is FAR stronger than the medivac timing attack. It's so insanely strong, I win my TvPs even before I start my third (and I do 2 rax FE).
Medivac timing -- split up your forces and do a double drop on his nat and main, try to be as efficient as possible. Focus fire on units warping in, and focus fire on stalkers so he can't snipe your medivacs (they're faster than sentries). He'll learn to split his own army, but he can't possibly cover his whole base -- take whatever you can get, pylons, potshots at sentries/stalkers, etc.
At the end of all these small timing pokes, you may actually have an army advantage even with his warpgate & chronoboost, due to the sheer efficiency of your bio units and bio upgrade timings. And with all the army trading going on, he won't have sufficient gateway units to perform the feared 2 collossus range timing attack.
Honestly, I think the key to the this matchup is getting fast ghosts on the 2 rax FE build. Yeah this delays your factory & starport, but the EMP timing is so strong, and it comes right before the first colossus pops out. I think it's pointless to try and think of an efficient 200/200 army against the toss deathball, because honestly their dps is like 2x ours, with like 2x our HP as well, it's kind of silly. We have to abuse our early timings, abuse medivac harass when it gets to 3 base and more, and have great viking/ghost micro.
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Honestly, I think the key to the this matchup is getting fast ghosts on the 2 rax FE build. Yeah this delays your factory & starport, but the EMP timing is so strong, and it comes right before the first colossus pops out. I think it's pointless to try and think of an efficient 200/200 army against the toss deathball, because honestly their dps is like 2x ours, with like 2x our HP as well, it's kind of silly. We have to abuse our early timings, abuse medivac harass when it gets to 3 base and more, and have great viking/ghost micro.
I dont know where exactly you take your numbers from, but I can see this happening if you are using bio all game long. Then its really pointless to try to fight 200 Protoss army. The game is designed (at least they say) to be balanced at every stage of the game, be it early, middle or late game. Terran bio is going to melt late game against 150+ Protoss army. Same happens for Zerg, but Zerg has unique ways how to deal with it. Mobility, army reproduction, tech switches, etc.. Not saying it all works how it probably should (Dealing with Colossus/Void-Rays recent hot topic..) But this is something that Terran lacks. So what is the other option for Terran? Its mechanical units. Those units are immobile as hell, cant be reproduced nearly as fast as said Zerg units. So there needs to be something where those units shine and don't tell me Terran mech cant take on 200 Protoss army effectively heads on?
Anyways, good thread - useful discussion.
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On February 18 2011 16:59 hahaimhenry wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP. I actually tried this, it worked really well, BUT BUT BUT BUT, i lost LOL. No but jokes aside, this is really strong but what i ran into was it actually forces the P to make TONS of zealots 'cause your army basically crushes their gas heavy units. my suggestion is to do this, but make sure you have 2 factories with 2 reactors later game to pump out blue flame hellions, it'll do you wonders! 2900 masters
Do you have a replay?
I agree that blue flame helions will be important if Zealots hit the field. Sometimes it's easy to forget that helions exist in TvP because, they are basically lol. One stalker can kill infinity helions, but if you have a Stalker-Killer army, as long as you don't gimp your supply with too many helions you should be able to lift your army and fight the Zealots with Helions and Ghosts.
I know how you feel though. I've been in late game with Toss many times. Lost temple, I'm on six bases, and I just cannot keep up with the chrono-boosted tech switches. It actually feels impossible.
It's actually insane in late game how FAST Toss can throw down 4 Stargates and chrono out 8 VRs. It happens really, REALLY fast and scouting in extreme late game, when it is half map versus half map, is not an easy thing to do. If Toss decides to mass VR in late game and you didn't have the game sense to build LOTs of Vikings it's over.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 18 2011 23:44 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 16:59 hahaimhenry wrote:On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP. I actually tried this, it worked really well, BUT BUT BUT BUT, i lost LOL. No but jokes aside, this is really strong but what i ran into was it actually forces the P to make TONS of zealots 'cause your army basically crushes their gas heavy units. my suggestion is to do this, but make sure you have 2 factories with 2 reactors later game to pump out blue flame hellions, it'll do you wonders! 2900 masters Do you have a replay?I agree that blue flame helions will be important if Zealots hit the field. Sometimes it's easy to forget that helions exist in TvP because, they are basically lol. One stalker can kill infinity helions, but if you have a Stalker-Killer army, as long as you don't gimp your supply with too many helions you should be able to lift your army and fight the Zealots with Helions and Ghosts. I know how you feel though. I've been in late game with Toss many times. Lost temple, I'm on six bases, and I just cannot keep up with the chrono-boosted tech switches. It actually feels impossible. It's actually insane in late game how FAST Toss can throw down 4 Stargates and chrono out 8 VRs. It happens really, REALLY fast and scouting in extreme late game, when it is half map versus half map, is not an easy thing to do. If Toss decides to mass VR in late game and you didn't have the game sense to build LOTs of Vikings it's over.
I'll be happy to play you with mass Hellions vs your mass stalker
Infinity.372
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On February 19 2011 00:04 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 23:44 TimeSpiral wrote:On February 18 2011 16:59 hahaimhenry wrote:On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP. I actually tried this, it worked really well, BUT BUT BUT BUT, i lost LOL. No but jokes aside, this is really strong but what i ran into was it actually forces the P to make TONS of zealots 'cause your army basically crushes their gas heavy units. my suggestion is to do this, but make sure you have 2 factories with 2 reactors later game to pump out blue flame hellions, it'll do you wonders! 2900 masters Do you have a replay?I agree that blue flame helions will be important if Zealots hit the field. Sometimes it's easy to forget that helions exist in TvP because, they are basically lol. One stalker can kill infinity helions, but if you have a Stalker-Killer army, as long as you don't gimp your supply with too many helions you should be able to lift your army and fight the Zealots with Helions and Ghosts. I know how you feel though. I've been in late game with Toss many times. Lost temple, I'm on six bases, and I just cannot keep up with the chrono-boosted tech switches. It actually feels impossible. It's actually insane in late game how FAST Toss can throw down 4 Stargates and chrono out 8 VRs. It happens really, REALLY fast and scouting in extreme late game, when it is half map versus half map, is not an easy thing to do. If Toss decides to mass VR in late game and you didn't have the game sense to build LOTs of Vikings it's over. I'll be happy to play you with mass Hellions vs your mass stalker Infinity.372
Hey, infinity, I know you're just messin around, but I could use a good Terran sparring partner.
I'm low Diamond, so you'd likely murder me, but I'm pretty good at TvT, and I'd like to be great.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I've beaten a number of mid master Ps with pure Hellions so no, I'm not entirely joking. Hellion is a great unit and Terran would be significantly weaker without it.
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I wanted to remind you that it's possible to make 12 tank in 12 min, most of mech player fail to do it
12 tank plus at least the same number of hellion are possible at 12 or even more, then u push...add viking if u see void(buld 4 less tank)
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Why would thors be an answer? Immortals are cost effetive vs them. Only reason thors sometimes work is that the toss dont get VR or enough Immortals.
My style (3k masters) is centered about getting a stronger economy than my opp and after a fast expand i Will try to use my mobile army to deny him his 3rd. This strategy used to work fine like 1+ months ago, but lately toss has to learned to deal with drobs. Learned to put cannons up and split up their armies. And when they get HT on 3 bases you can do shit. I can have 5 +bases. 200 fully upgraded bio /ghost army, with 15+bararcsks. And I will still lose. Sure you can get lucky emps of if the toss miscontrolls his HT, but even then he can warp in new HT and you can never attack the protoss. A mech/ghost tranistion might be the answer. But even that seems to put you at a disadvantage if you succesufly transition into it.
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It's very true that we can't expect to battle toss lategame with MMM + viking + ghost, but the problem is that I don't know in what I have to transition, and it looks like no one knows..yet..
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On February 19 2011 00:18 Garmer wrote:
I wanted to remind you that it's possible to make 12 tank in 12 min, most of mech player fail to do it
12 tank plus at least the same number of hellion are possible at 12 or even more, then u push...add viking if u see void(buld 4 less tank)
12 tanks and 12 hellions at the 12 min mark? Care to share a replay?
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On February 19 2011 00:56 Hider wrote:
Why would thors be an answer? Immortals are cost effetive vs them. Only reason thors sometimes work is that the toss dont get VR or enough Immortals.
My style (3k masters) is centered about getting a stronger economy than my opp and after a fast expand i Will try to use my mobile army to deny him his 3rd. This strategy used to work fine like 1+ months ago, but lately toss has to learned to deal with drobs. Learned to put cannons up and split up their armies. And when they get HT on 3 bases you can do shit. I can have 5 +bases. 200 fully upgraded bio /ghost army, with 15+bararcsks. And I will still lose. Sure you can get lucky emps of if the toss miscontrolls his HT, but even then he can warp in new HT and you can never attack the protoss. A mech/ghost tranistion might be the answer. But even that seems to put you at a disadvantage if you succesufly transition into it.
I've seen drewbie actually transition into fully upped battlecruisers with ghost support and completely crush his opponent, but that was only like 4-5 base with low scv count using mass orbitals.
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I dont know why you guys keep arguing that zealots beat tanks... its not the case. When Chargelots are on the field tanks beat tanks because of friendly fire!
Mass tanks is just the way you go for! Did you ever play towerdefenses? Maze, splash damage and something that clumbs up the enemy units will be simply the most effective army!
You have 3 problems with that approach. Tanks dont deal damage to zealots, because they are light and immortals just take 10 damage.... If both of them reach the tanks, they also start to cause friendlyfire.
2 questions.. didnt terrans in sc1 had the same problems because of zealots before the mass tanks became viable because ppl started to figure out stuff? Indeed they had!
Have you ever seen Flash beating 200supply protoss groundarmy with less than 10tanks? NO you did not. its because splash gets better the more units you have. 5 tanks get rolled by every force protoss has. 25 tanks on the other hand are unbeatable with groundforces!
so how do we deal with zealots in sc2? Its kinda easy! prevent them from reaching your tanks! As I stated earlier in this thread. I rarely ever lose fights with tanks plus barrackswalls. I prefer barracks to bunkers, because they have more hitpoints and you can lift them to use them again.
Take this into unittestmaps and you will see 300supply of protoss deathball melt like icecream in the sun under tankfire if the chargelots and immortals cant reach the tanks.
This style is obviously hard to play and maybe not suited for maps you cant split in the middle. Ive yet have to come up with an solid opening so I can transition into it without falling behind, losing to immortal allins and beein able to put pressure on a massexpending toss, keeping mapcontrol etc.
A build that feels just intuitive and strong.
Again.. when I reach lategame and have a huge mecharmy with upgrades and a few EMPs.. I never ever lose! As soon as you get your third safely, you have a good setup to win.
I start to kill my scvs when Iam maxed to get an even stronger army and rely purely on SCVs in gas and Mules. Obviously the protoss cant do the same thing.
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last night i was watching incontrol streaming and this particular game was against avilo. avilo had gone a considerable tank viking comp and crept across the map with some turret placement. i could have sworn he had the game but incontrol had chronoed immortals off of about 5 or 6 robos with zealots and eventually won the game. he was also starting to work on plasma shields as his other upgrades were maxed.
thinking back at it i think the only way avilo could have won was ghosts + a full mix of units from his production facilities.
i we can agree that for terran bio is the backbone and fodder for other things in your army. changing and replacing your tech is easier said than done, especially with constant engagements.
that said i think as terran approaches a 200 food army you need to constantly increase your production. i dont know think enough late games have occured for us to know yet, but 20+ production buildings seems like a good number to start. this is of course once you are on multiple bases.
terrans lack of mobile aoe i think needs to be amswered with numbers, unfortunately reactored units are pretty specialized. marines as good as they are require a lot of babysitting micro to increase their life, hellions are without a job once zealots are dead (though mineral line harassment is still available), and vikings are similar when your toss. might be going heavy templar. though vs col phoenix vikimgs are sort of like corruptors in which they have to be overproduced.
i think in general it comes down to ghosts and smart emps while also what you do in the midgame. a few months back there was a ghost mech build posted which i think went kind of out of style but maybe deserves another go around.
upgrades are also essential though given how spread out its almost impossible to get all 6 lines of upgrades going.
i think as it stands terran just wants to end the game before it gets into 4 base territory. i dont think theres really an answer or a catch all for terran late game
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On February 19 2011 02:01 DennyR wrote:
I dont know why you guys keep arguing that zealots beat tanks... its not the case. When Chargelots are on the field tanks beat tanks because of friendly fire!
Mass tanks is just the way you go for! Did you ever play towerdefenses? Maze, splash damage and something that clumbs up the enemy units will be simply the most effective army!
You have 3 problems with that approach. Tanks dont deal damage to zealots, because they are light and immortals just take 10 damage.... If both of them reach the tanks, they also start to cause friendlyfire.
2 questions.. didnt terrans in sc1 had the same problems because of zealots before the mass tanks became viable because ppl started to figure out stuff? Indeed they had!
Have you ever seen Flash beating 200supply protoss groundarmy with less than 10tanks? NO you did not. its because splash gets better the more units you have. 5 tanks get rolled by every force protoss has. 25 tanks on the other hand are unbeatable with groundforces!
so how do we deal with zealots in sc2? Its kinda easy! prevent them from reaching your tanks! As I stated earlier in this thread. I rarely ever lose fights with tanks plus barrackswalls. I prefer barracks to bunkers, because they have more hitpoints and you can lift them to use them again.
Take this into unittestmaps and you will see 300supply of protoss deathball melt like icecream in the sun under tankfire if the chargelots and immortals cant reach the tanks.
the highlighted part is the crucial misconception about tanks vs chargelots: charge is an ability that acts as a natural declumping mechanism. charging zealots automatically spread so that the tank´s damage is far below their potential damage against them. there was no such declumping mechanism in bw, if a group of zealots was clumped up before a-moving in, they would get the first volley of tankfire in their clumped up formation. in sc2 on the other hand, a bunch of clumped chargelots a-moving in does get automatically declumped.
additionally, it is almost impossible to overstate how instrumental spider mines have been for the success of mech in bw. they came basically for free and allowed to control space without an army. they made it very hard for a deathball to approach the own tankline without getting fatal damage even before the tanks fire their second shot. a vulture with 3 spider mines for 75 minerals is like.... 10 times more effective and strong than a blueflame hellion for 100 minerals. spider mines made vultures an extremely effective mineral sink. there is no mineral sink in sc2 tvp which comes even remotely close to this level of efficiency.
besides these points, the smartcast of tanks in sc2 means that tanks potentially grow very strong in large numbers, which made it kind of necessary to lower their base dam compared to bw. this means that low numbers of tanks are much worse in sc2 than the same number of tanks in bw. this makes the transition to mass tanks very difficult. the lack of spidermines doesnt help the transition either, compared to bw.
to sum it up, i think the tank in sc2 tvp is a botched unit which will never work like we are used to from bw. im convinced tanks are not the future of this matchup.
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I have an answet to Lategame TvP..
Turn it into PvT!!
Come over to the dark side =P Seriously. Deathballs are so much fun.
I play diamonds that are outbasing me... I'm stuck on 2 bases, main mined out, getting harrassed all the time.
Then boom. Mothership/void-rays/Collosi/stalkers/upgraded death ball wins me the day =)
PS Vortex is SICK!!
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I don't understand why people are looking for solutions in mech that just don't work.
Here's the really really simple solution: you need to have enough ghosts to EMP their WHOLE army. Once you do that mass mara will do the job perfectly fine.
One point here is that people tend to try to EMP templar/ranged units, when if they are constrained they should be EMPing templar/zeals. An EMP on zeals is 5 shots from mara, an emp on stalkers is only 4 and not going to be turned into battle efficiency until the zeals are dead either.
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1400 Master Terran
Aside from the MVP vs Squirtle game that I'm sure everyone has seen, I thought this 45 minute TVP was very instructive on the subject:
http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-mouzhasu-vs-t-escgoody-lost-temple-02-16-2011 (sorry if there is a liquid link to this as well)
Mech has two major problems, as many have already mentioned, that only add to Protoss late game unit cost efficiency and strength:
Since you aren't mobile enough to seriously threaten them, and you can't replace units like warpgates can, you may be able to survive through turtling, but never gain the advantage.
You need reactor ports churning to keep up with any move to void rays...but your vikings serve no other purpose when the composition immediatly switches toward gateway or immortal, unless he happens to tech into carriers/mothership with a strong viking presence already.
Ghosts supposedly do a good job against templar and other compositions, but they don't. Consider that any freshly warped templar with ammy can get off a storm - whereas you need to be a step ahead with ghosts.
The common theme here is that anything mech/ghost does for terran cannot seize any sort of initiative against the Protoss. You are basically permanently turtling while the toss expands at will and can drop very cost effective harasses against you. We've already established that terran cannot rebuild his army at the same speed.
In the replay, it takes Hasu awhile before he goes up the tech tree to carrier, but he is never seriously threatened. It takes basically the whole of Goody's army to defend even a small choke point, from which his expansions are easily harassed by isolated units, and from which the Colossus threaten constantly to just walk up the cliff and crush his production.
As Terran, I feel our greatest strength is seizing the initiative, whether it's denying the Protoss early information or getting ahead economically with mules. But since bioball is so easily destroyed by any competent toss, and mech is at the moment incapable of seizing the initiative because of Protoss's steadily increasing mobility, I'm convinced that we HAVE to enter lategame with a decisive advantage to win this matchup.
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On February 19 2011 02:31 naventus wrote:
I don't understand why people are looking for solutions in mech that just don't work.
Here's the really really simple solution: you need to have enough ghosts to EMP their WHOLE army. Once you do that mass mara will do the job perfectly fine.
One point here is that people tend to try to EMP templar/ranged units, when if they are constrained they should be EMPing templar/zeals. An EMP on zeals is 5 shots from mara, an emp on stalkers is only 4 and not going to be turned into battle efficiency until the zeals are dead either.
Good luck EMPing chargelots, HTs behind Colossus and the WHOLE army controlled by Protoss that can do something more than a-move..
Also say hi to 3 new warped-in templars as your ghosts are just being built on the other side of the map.
edit: People are looking for solutions in mech not because it doesn't work. Its because nothing else that has been tried works really.. There were so many builds and compositions including ghosts and still we are where we are. So the next step is to try mech or something..
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If your tanks aren't killing something on the ground, you're just not using enough tanks.
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Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable.
-Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone.
-Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes.
-Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall.
Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings.
Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned.
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On February 19 2011 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote:
Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable.
-Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone.
-Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes.
-Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall.
Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings.
Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned.
You can use those extra minerals on Planetary Fortresses in the middle of the map for more map control. People tend to underestimate the fact that you can just spam depots/bunkers/PFs almost everywhere with Mech. Chargealots are alot worse than Zealots from BW with legs, and there are no mines that the P can use against your mech army. I don't see how anyone can even complain about Chargealots when you also have Blue Flame Helions who by a certain number can essentially one shot an entire wave of Zealots.
On February 19 2011 02:35 wxlancer wrote:1400 Master Terran Aside from the MVP vs Squirtle game that I'm sure everyone has seen, I thought this 45 minute TVP was very instructive on the subject: http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-mouzhasu-vs-t-escgoody-lost-temple-02-16-2011 (sorry if there is a liquid link to this as well) Mech has two major problems, as many have already mentioned, that only add to Protoss late game unit cost efficiency and strength: Since you aren't mobile enough to seriously threaten them, and you can't replace units like warpgates can, you may be able to survive through turtling, but never gain the advantage. You need reactor ports churning to keep up with any move to void rays...but your vikings serve no other purpose when the composition immediatly switches toward gateway or immortal, unless he happens to tech into carriers/mothership with a strong viking presence already. Ghosts supposedly do a good job against templar and other compositions, but they don't. Consider that any freshly warped templar with ammy can get off a storm - whereas you need to be a step ahead with ghosts. The common theme here is that anything mech/ghost does for terran cannot seize any sort of initiative against the Protoss. You are basically permanently turtling while the toss expands at will and can drop very cost effective harasses against you. We've already established that terran cannot rebuild his army at the same speed. In the replay, it takes Hasu awhile before he goes up the tech tree to carrier, but he is never seriously threatened. It takes basically the whole of Goody's army to defend even a small choke point, from which his expansions are easily harassed by isolated units, and from which the Colossus threaten constantly to just walk up the cliff and crush his production. As Terran, I feel our greatest strength is seizing the initiative, whether it's denying the Protoss early information or getting ahead economically with mules. But since bioball is so easily destroyed by any competent toss, and mech is at the moment incapable of seizing the initiative because of Protoss's steadily increasing mobility, I'm convinced that we HAVE to enter lategame with a decisive advantage to win this matchup.
Obviously someone hasn't played BW, because mech is played almost identical in that you have to camp, have good positioning, while also harassing well with Helions/Vultures in order to keep P expos in check. Although Vultures are better at contain/slowing down P pushes, you have to realize that blue flame Helions sneaking into expo(s)/main means alot of dead Probes no matter what, which wasn't always the case with Vultures.
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On February 19 2011 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote:
Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable.
-Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone.
-Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes.
-Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall.
Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings.
Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned.
I dont see it as clear as you do. Bio wont disappear completly. It will be a matter of maps. If huge maps are going to be standard then yes, you will probably see more mech play. Interestingly enough, one would say that the bigger map the more mobile army you need. But bigger map also means the game is likely to go into later stages where you wont keep up with bio no matter what. So I think with new maps included now people will work on mech based strategies and if those evolves at a similar fashion as bio based strategies then yes - mech will be viable and popular.
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marauder/thor/medivac/viking/ghost sounds pretty good.
recently ive been aiming for the same except instead of thors I get blueflame hellions. this way you keep most of your mobility. i think thors have their place but its not much beyond breaking forcefields.
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On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots.
TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing.
Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play.
In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy.
Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier.
Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack?
Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough.
EDIT: For those who say early mech is weak. You can;t just jump into mech unless you 1base 2 Fact into expand. Which only works against Expand builds. You have to open Bio mech(Marine Tank) or Heavy harass.
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On February 19 2011 03:19 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough.
Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage).
Yes P has alot of good options to harass you with, but the only thing remotely equivalent to your Blue Flame Helion drop is a Templar drop, which is ALOT more expensive than your Helions.
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On February 19 2011 03:08 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote:
Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable.
-Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone.
-Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes.
-Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall.
Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings.
Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned. I dont see it as clear as you do. Bio wont disappear completly. It will be a matter of maps. If huge maps are going to be standard then yes, you will probably see more mech play. Interestingly enough, one would say that the bigger map the more mobile army you need. But bigger map also means the game is likely to go into later stages where you wont keep up with bio no matter what. So I think with new maps included now people will work on mech based strategies and if those evolves at a similar fashion as bio based strategies then yes - mech will be viable and popular.
Well yea, I mean on steppes/or close base metal you are definately right. but even on some of the current maps I think mech is very viable such as Xel Naga, LT, DQ, Shakuras.
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For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So:
1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat
2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks)
3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo.
Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech.
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On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots.
Do tell me some Terran players that have more/ the same success as Goody playing full mech. I was under the impression that he is by far the most accomplished player using full mech.
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On February 19 2011 03:22 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:19 GinDo wrote:On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough. Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage).
simply not true. Ps gateway army isnt weaker. the reason why this is very different from broodwar is cause tvp you had a VERY powerful combination with vultures/mines/tanks. 2of those 3 dont exist anymore and the 3rd is worse then it was for various reasons.
stuff like easy to get powerful air, the immortal or the lol-easymode-supermobilereaver,the collosus just adds to it but isnt the reason for it
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:28 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. Do tell me some Terran players that have more/ the same success as Goody playing full mech. I was under the impression that he is by far the most accomplished player using full mech.
I was less than impressed with a replay of goody. He had 3 tanks queued at each factory and dropping Hellions practically within Colo range. He played ultra passive and didn't expand enough
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If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter
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On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter
And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
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On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking???
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out.
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On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out.
This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above:
For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So:
1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat
2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks)
3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo.
Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech.
On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out.
I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do.
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On February 19 2011 03:39 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:22 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 03:19 GinDo wrote:On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough. Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage). simply not true. Ps gateway army isnt weaker. the reason why this is very different from broodwar is cause tvp you had a VERY powerful combination with vultures/mines/tanks. 2of those 3 dont exist anymore and the 3rd is worse then it was for various reasons. stuff like easy to get powerful air, the immortal or the lol-easymode-supermobilereaver,the collosus just adds to it but isnt the reason for it
If you're trying to say Zealot/Stalker is stronger than Zealot/Goon you are shitting me. Archons which also came out of the Gateway are better, and the SC1 Storm is alot stronger in a head on fight than SC2 storm (SC2 storm is stronger in that Amulet allows you to respond instantly and mass Storm easier).
Helions are stronger vs a weaker Zealot, thus negating the mass Zealot/Immortal theorycraft people try to throw out. Where mech is weak is in mobility, but you have to abuse your Helion mobility advantage as an above poster stated backstabbing and constantly harassing and denying expansions.
It's the air switch that you have to be really careful with; but it was really the same way in BW also, so I'm not really seeing that big of a difference. I think that people just want free wins, rather than trying to adapt and change; P and Z players had to RADICALLY alter their styles of play since the beginning of the beta; T has had the luxury of playing Bio the ENTIRE way due to the early game strength of MMM.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing; in fact I put it on Blizzard for making Bio so attractive in the first place. Mech is just a style that requires alot more precision and alot less room for error; you cannot afford to trade armies like you can with Bio, and as such you have to play more for late game and have to be really on top of your macro.
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On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay
Heres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet.
All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it )
I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm.
Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway)
To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 04:29 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above: For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So: 1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do.
You should try positioning your army properly and figure out where his army is. Stalker/colo such a weak composition vs mass tanks...
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On February 19 2011 04:29 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above: For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So: 1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do.
2800 masters, thanks
So your gona say the same thing again.....
So il do the same
Tanks>>> Stalks Vikings>>> collsi key word is WELL Spread out, now Im not going to let you blink walk into my base. The second I crush your army which will be very easy thanks to my units already hard countering yours, I will setup a contain and you will be done. I use sensor towers when I play mech so no you will not surprise me.
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On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
I think you are a bit obsessed with this Stalker/Colossus clift action.. There are few replays where Terran loses to this and thats it. You seem to make big statements like "Mech doesn't work" with no serious background for your arguments. Can you actually throw at me something more then "200/200 stalker/colossus will kill you"? Those things you suggest like Immortal timing push, cannons at mineral lines etc.. Those are pretty standard strategies that occures no matter what you play mech or bio and can be adressed - not a big deal. I dont want to have an argument with you, but please - try to be more constructive..
edit: as XXXSmOke stated - well placed Sensor Tower or two are enough if you fear Colossus blink action that much. Also, its not hard to say Toss is trying to abuse some blink action since you will see mainly Stalkers and Colossus. Not to mention this won't work on all maps..
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On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage).
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Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up.
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On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up.
We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning.
Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either.
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On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage).
the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) )
Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc.
Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN))
Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway)
Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation.
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With mech you can also snipe Templars easy with Helions if they are careless with them.
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On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either.
Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general.
You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
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The main issue with lategame TvP is warpgates. Trade armies fairly even, but then rapelots and HT's gets warped in and kills any leftover. Add Amulet, and you are bound to loose.
Imho, it should be T who should have warpgate-like tech on rax units, not P.
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Obviously bio-mech is the way to go in the late game. Without thors and helions you cant fight protoss on 4+ bases. I was doing this strat for a long time it it works well
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On February 19 2011 05:13 KaiserJohan wrote:
The main issue with lategame TvP is warpgates. Trade armies fairly even, but then rapelots and HT's gets warped in and kills any leftover. Add Amulet, and you are bound to loose.
Imho, it should be T who should have warpgate-like tech on rax units, not P.
Anytime you kill a protoss army as terran and have any units left over you need to be rallying hellions in out of your 6-8 factories. They build quite fast and youd be surprised how many gateway units 5 hurt tanks, a hurt thor, and rallied hellions can kill.
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On February 19 2011 05:13 rapier7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either. Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general. You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
Have you seen replays from Sadist? Or from Goody for example? As I don't think you can say "mech can't act as the main army".. Mech isn't that hard to micro either. You only need to siege in time and secure a good position. You dont need to kite, stim, drop, dance around. You dont care about forcefields and HTs, etc.. Its a way that is currently being refined in SC2, so I think there are lots of improvements coming.. For example Sensor Towers, very underused - you need them playing mech as its one of the way how you can at least somehow make up for your mobility issues.
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On February 19 2011 05:13 rapier7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either. Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general. You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
Watch Sadist vs OptikZero, Optik is using Stalker/Immortal/DT/Zeal/Colossai and tries to harass and still gets pummeled despite a huge early game lead from a good VR push.
I think the thing people tend to forget is that the Tanks take care of the Anti-Helion units like Colossai/Templar storm and stuff like that, but Helion en masse will beat Gateway units cleanly.
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On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation.
Totally agree.
I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using?
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On February 19 2011 05:30 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation. Totally agree. I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using?
1 rax marauder expand and then make a factory and marines turrets etc
http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay are replays of me doing it
It definitely can be refined to be even more safe (say add a 2nd rax for marines earlier or something)
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I'm only Diamond and have only just switched to Terran, but TvP is already my favourite matchup. I don't know if mech builds are viable, because my opponents and I are bad at macro and use subpar builds and all that stuff, but a 200/200 mech army can and will destroy a 200/200 Protoss army. The ideal composition, from my experience, is hellion/thor/tank/viking with a couple of ghosts mixed in. Yes it's tricky, and no you can't win through a-moving, but if you do it right you can beat the dreaded chargelot/immortal combo pretty easily.
One very important thing is to use your mineral sinks wisely. You have a few choices:
- Marines. Not usually that useful, but if your opponent goes for some chargelot/immortal/void composition to counter your mech they can work.
- Hellions. Fantastic at shoring up the holes in your mech composition. I've not tried using them against immortal shields, but if it does work as well as people are saying then they're just a fantastic all-round unit that can also devastate expansions. Even if the Protoss throws a couple of cannons down, it's worth losing a few hellions to wipe out every worker in an expo.
- Mass orbitals. Once you get enough of them you can have your true max army, which will destroy a 140-ish supply Protoss maxed army. However, and this is pure theorycraft, on larger maps such as Tal'darim mass orbitals may allow you to have the exact same number of SCVs as normal, but simply have every single one of them on gas. With 60 or so workers mining gas and a constant rain of MULEs you can just fill the map with production facilities and do constant remaxing that would make a Zerg jealous.
- Scan like crazy. Since minerals aren't as important, you can always just swap out your MULEs for maphacks.
Now, the actual battles. Basically, you want to have your tanks at the back. That's the most important thing. They have crazy long range and are vulnerable, so you just need something else to, ummm, tank for them. So many people are saying that tanks are bad because chargelots can just run in and kill them, but if there's a line of thors and hellions in front? A-moved chargelots will waste their charge running into them, then get roasted by the hellions. If the Protoss manually orders them to charge to the tanks, they won't get their speed boost until they've walked past your hellions, and will therefore be clumped up that whole time and be ripped apart by your tanks and blueflames. This also helps against storms - thors aren't overly bothered by them, hellions can quickly micro out and the tanks are too far away for the HT to hit them.
As far as immortals go, strike cannons are useful early game, but later on they become meh. At that point your thors can die before they've even finished the warmup animation, so there's not really much point. Instead, just use EMPs. If you can knock the shields off the immortals they will be instantly torn apart by your tanks. EMPs also help immensely against everything else. It's hard to overstate the effectiveness of an ability that cuts half the health off everything in an area.
Then we have the collosus and voids. They're pretty nasty, but vikings work pretty damn well against both of them. They aren't all that useful against the ground army, but 1) your mech can beat a Protoss ground army, so encouraging them to go pure ground is good and 2) you can land them. They aren't exactly cost-effective when landed, but they still help, plus in sufficient numbers they can destroy expos pretty damn quickly. I'm too lazy to go back through the thread and find out who it was, but someone said that the Protoss can techswitch very quickly late game by just throwing down 4 stargates and boosting out 8 voids. Well, by the time they can do that you can already have built around 5 reactored starports. The handful of vikings you should be making blindly, if only to discourage air transitions, should help hold them off while you quickly amass a proper air force.
Dente's argument that stalker-collosus beats mech is pretty much completely wrong; with sensor towers they can't do any tricksy outmaneuvering shenanigans and with thors, vikings and tanks you'll easily win if it comes down to a fight.
In the long run, Terran is going to need to go mech in order to beat Protoss. Once the Protoss players fully figure out the timings and learn how to beat early Terran aggression, which is already happening, rushes just won't work, and trying to use a pure tier 1 army against a maxed Protoss deathball with fully upgraded tier 3 is just silly. Maybe mech will need some sort of buffs/new expansion units to be viable, maybe it won't, but it is the future and people need to start trying it out or switch races, because pure bio won't work forever.
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On February 19 2011 05:31 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:30 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation. Totally agree. I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using? 1 rax marauder expand and then make a factory and marines turrets etc http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay are replays of me doing it It definitely can be refined to be even more safe (say add a 2nd rax for marines earlier or something)
Cool, il check it out when I can. Il be posting some of my 2 fact replays as well.
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in addition when u play mech(or even bio, why not) don't forget to place the factory like this, u save a lot of space in your main
![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8389/screenshot2011021821324.jpg)
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This is a little bit off topic, but seems like there's a lot of master terran here so I wanted to ask. What is the main difference between going from diamond to master league? assuming you were once lower diamond. Did you guys have a lot of previous broodwar experience? I'm having trouble moving out of diamond.
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I find ghosts to be absolutely critical. Usually just 1 rax making them is enough too. Stalkers die insanely fast once they've been emped, and obviously immortals have no hardened shield after an EMP. I've also found tanks to be a bit meh, thors seem to work much much better. Vikings seem to be useful anyways even if they don't go air they can deal with colossi/deal a good bit of dps sitting behind thors. People seem to forget vikings have more dps than stalkers do.
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As a protoss player, I feel that the only thing which can bring me down in the late game is ghosts/mech but for having also plaid Terran I know that the combination is too gaz-heavy.
I guess Terran users will have to seach for innovative ways to get to this unit combination. Eventually, if nothing can be done to reach it safely, I guess that the ghost gaz cost should be reduced a little. It's not like that change would have any serious effect on TvZ balance.
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On February 19 2011 06:03 TeWy wrote:
As a protoss player, I feel that the only thing which can bring me down in the late game is ghosts/mech but for having also plaid Terran I know that the combination is too gaz-heavy.
I guess Terran users will have to seach for innovative ways to get to this unit combination. Eventually, if nothing can be done to reach it safely, I guess that the ghost gaz cost should be reduced a little. It's not like that change would have any serious effect on TvZ balance.
Its not that hard, you just have to fast expand and take a quick third while turtling all along. Its pretty amazing what some bunkers and tanks can hold off, or bunkers and thors. Obviously you have to harass while turtling, that is a given.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this.
Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all.
Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
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On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
You haven't even bothered to look at Sadist's replays. OptikZero despite having a huge econ advantage early lost due to the cost efficiency of Mech in head on fights and Helion harassment.
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On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work.
When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech.
Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming?
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On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming?
mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser.
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On February 19 2011 09:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. You haven't even bothered to look at Sadist's replays. OptikZero despite having a huge econ advantage early lost due to the cost efficiency of Mech in head on fights and Helion harassment.
You're right I didn't, but that doesn't equate for all cases.
And I never said mech doesn't work, I'm advocating it, I was saying the dude I was quoting was super wrong. And no, the only time youll have more bases than toss with mech is when either the toss is bad, or you got way ahead way early.
One more thing, if a protoss ever decides pure stalker colossus is the answer to your mech build, you pretty much won, its the other things that bite. (in conjunction with colossus.)
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That's why you need sensor towers. On most maps theres only one part of your base where he can do the deed of cliff walking/blink. If you scout blink stalks and collsi then immeditatly throw turrets/sensor towers and a few tanks on the ledge. Youll see his army coming which will give you the jump you can unseige your main line and begin heading back to your main. Vikings help alot here because they are mobile and can start sniping the collsus while you wait for your tank lines to get back to your main. After I hold the first wave off il add some thors and then push out. Tank+Thor+hellion+Viking cleans up stalk collsi so fast its unbelivable absolutely unbeliavable watching stalks pop to tanks.
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On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser.
So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor.
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On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor.
it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army.
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On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army.
Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions.
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On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
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On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions.
you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?)
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On February 19 2011 10:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
Denies scouting and its necessary vs voidray rushes.
Ive been doing it just about every game for practice because I wanted to get a solid build order vs just about everything
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 10:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
He didn't scout P's tech so dt is a possibility
edit: vr works too lol
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On February 19 2011 10:44 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions. you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?)
Well why are you moving out to attack when he's already in your base? Mech terran is not mobile. If you see your opponent making the most mobile force possible in order to take advantage of that weakness, either keep your army in your base to defend or have it right outside his base, with sensor towers so you can walk into his base and kill him the moment he leaves it. There's no reason to ever have your army sitting in the middle of the map against someone whose entire plan consists of leaving his base undefended so he can poke at yours.
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Its not as much that hes making the most mobile force possible as it is just a regular ass protoss army gets that much mobility.
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On February 19 2011 11:24 PaleBlueDot wrote:
Its not as much that hes making the most mobile force possible as it is just a regular ass protoss army gets that much mobility.
Against a mech Terran stalker-collosus is definitely a force chosen for mobility, because it sucks ass in a straight up fight. If you aren't playing bio, your opponent isn't going to make an anti-bio force. To compete with a proper mech Terran they need immotals, maybe voids, they absolutely need a HT or two for feedback or ghosts will rip them apart, they need chargelots, they basically need everything other than stalkers and collosi. Very few of those units have any decent mobility.
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So a couple immortals, some voids, and some HT. That still leaves a good number of stalkers and maybe 1-3 colossus, the only thing it straps them on is gas, but late game they will probably get blink anyway. Watch the goody replays, some people do not agree with his style of mech over his bio, but it is still there.
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How do you deal with phoenix based mid game. He can run around and just lift any patrolling hellions. In large fights he can also neutralize all your tanks with phoenix long enough to dominate the remaining ground.
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On February 19 2011 12:46 naventus wrote:
How do you deal with phoenix based mid game. He can run around and just lift any patrolling hellions. In large fights he can also neutralize all your tanks with phoenix long enough to dominate the remaining ground.
I think phoenix is a good counter to it as far as neutralizing the hellion harass, thing that is nice though is Mech is still good anyway even if they do neutralize your hellion harass (and TBH if you break them once with it they are pretty much on their heals the whole game, say you realize you kill their phoenix's with your thor or something you just use the hellions to harass again)
Id definitely recommend phoenix against it though. Mech army is good anyway (with mass hellions and 3-4 thors that will take out the phoenix's (a few vikings too)) so even if they do stop harass you can still beat them anyway.
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im a 3100 masters terran. I usually open with 2 rax expo into 4 rax (generally favor heavy marines). collossus are dealt with by vikings for me. once i run into the big high templar and macro late game is when i started to have big problems as i was trying to go marauder/marine/medivac/ghost which works to somewhat efficiency. what i have been doing lately is once hts hit the map generally i see mostly zealot/hts so what i do is i lift about 2 to 3 rax off reactor, make them tech labs and put factories onto the reactors for helions
basically late game i swap out marines for helions as once upgrades get higher i find them much more effective against zealots than marines are. I opt for less ghost numbers as marauders can tank a storm or two with medivacs and the helions make zealots evaporate. It has been working pretty good for me, it just requires you to be a little more careful about army hotkeys as you dont want your helions too far ahead of your army. feel free to criticize, this is not thlhe end-all late game ticket, itis just something i have been playing around with.
PS sorry for punctuation/capitalization as i am on my phone (tl app android rules)
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I think terran also have a difficulty in keeping up with upgrades when going mech.
Zealot, Stalker, Immortal, and Colossus get incredible mileage out of weapons and armor. For 100/100 the entire ball is getting pretty good bang for their buck, of course these upgrades increase in cost for both terran and protoss, but they still come from very different areas. Of course if we get on more bases we're also looking at more chronoboost which means faster upgrades.
As the game progresses, cost for cost, we're looking a 100+ food army that has been upgraded for 525/525 and that also has a considerable amount of health on a terran army. On top of that you can usually account for a guardian shield or two to be covering PART of an army which obviously, every bit counts.
Terran on the other hand can spend the same amount, and only have an upgraded bio (which will obviously do better depending on positioning and micro, but will still burn up), or an upgraded mech support, or spread the two so they are both 1-1 and 1-1 maybe 1-2, find me a game where anyone has had 2-2 in both mech units and bio and still had an army to match a protoss army. This isn't of course a complaint, it's once again how the armies are different.
I think actually terran may have a gas problem, which causes us to really invest money in a unit comp that we feel may take us the farthest. I mean the tech lab on a factory alone has 400/400 worth of upgrades and two of them are both user initiated (as opposed to charge/colossus range). I think we end up spending lumps of gas rather than doling it out a little better like protoss does.
I think one thing is that both smart terran and protoss know that terran need that 3rd gas geyser and 3rd income source to keep dumping these lumps of money into upgrades. Armed with that, you know that the terran may not be in a position to attack you just yet, so you just need to know where his army is and you can expand as well or more just to get more gas yourself.
In the end, regardless of upgrades, I think ghosts (yet another heavy gas unit) are needed to swing it your way. So I think starting upgrades earlier may help out, though unfortunately it may come at a price of a tank which could the difference in holding a position...
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I play mech 90% of my games vs protoss and when they blink into my base I feel like I autowin, unless they have a mothership ready to recall.
If I'm aware of their mothership I just base trade, but if they don't have one I just siege up some tanks outside my main's cliff and then I slowpush up my ramp and into my base.
If he tries to blink back down 50% of his army is going to get lost in translation from tank fire. If he tries to be cute I just use my raven to throw down a point defense drone.
It's so much easier to win with mech late game than it is to win with bio, and it's really not that hard to play mech once you get good at scouting and decision making + tank/building placement.
What I usually do is
Rax
Fact
CC
Engineering bay
2 more factories (unless stargate tech scouted)
2 tech labs 1 reactor
Armory
3rd CC
Starport get 1 raven then swap to a reactor and make vikings (if he has air)
Ghost academy
2 more factories (1 tech lab, 1 reactor)
Protoss air is cheese vs mech, if you have sufficient number of vikings you can just run him over because his ground army will be mostly gateway units as a result of his gas allocation.
Things to watch out for :
1) hidden stargates rallying void rays to the corner of the map to hide them until he has like 99 and you have no AA (scan regularly and scout the entire map with hellions, you don't need 999999 minerals when you go mech since you just spam hellions with them anyways)
2) Maxing out on ground units and then the toss switches to air units and runs you over because you have no supply room ( sac a bunch of units and spam turrets in the interim)
Landed vikings are actually a really good buffer for your tanks if you can afford them over hellions. Once I split the map I tend to make a lot of vikings and I just land them. They have more health/armor and do more DPS to armored units than hellions so as long as you have enough blue flame to take out the zealots, the vikings while expensive boost the standing strength of your army.
I don't really know of a protoss army composition that takes out tanks/hellions/vikings/ghosts/raven hands down, but I know of a bunch that automatically lose to it.
Protoss needs a LOT of robo units + HT/DT to combat mech with any degree of effectiveness. The best protoss will use this composition and then have a TONNE of warpgates once they have their side of the map. What this allows them to do is a "300 food push" where their first army is a tonne of strong robo/templar to widdle down the mech ball, but then the instant reinforcement with the built up cash is what actually kills the mech ball, exactly like ZvP when zerg overmakes corrupters to take out collosi and then floods with roaches and hydras to clean up the rest.
When you play good protosses what you have to do is kill their first army, and then immediately retreat to a defensive position and build your army back up to 200/200 and then take out their remaxed warpgate composition. After this is dead you can proceed to win the game.
Planetary fortresses synergize so well with mech, since your army is immobile it's really nice to be able to plant turrets and fortresses at stategic defensive positions while you lock down other parts of the map with tanks.
REPLAYS:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141277-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141275-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133834-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133833-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141279-1v1-terran-protoss-jungle-basin
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On February 19 2011 10:56 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:44 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions. you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?) Well why are you moving out to attack when he's already in your base? Mech terran is not mobile. If you see your opponent making the most mobile force possible in order to take advantage of that weakness, either keep your army in your base to defend or have it right outside his base, with sensor towers so you can walk into his base and kill him the moment he leaves it. There's no reason to ever have your army sitting in the middle of the map against someone whose entire plan consists of leaving his base undefended so he can poke at yours.
You don't understand this terran mech. I'm 100% sure that a) you are master but never played mech or b) you played mech but on diamond level. Imagine playing lost temple. You tanks are at the xel naga tower. You see red dots moving towards your main. You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main.
1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat.
2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win.
Some people tell to spread your tanks out. Well, indeed, lets place 5 tanks in my main, and then continue my line towards my nat and my third. The line will be so thin that it's a party for a 200/200 mobile protoss army. He will pick off your main tanks, kill your production buildings, retreat and then delay your 4th and 5th.
Am I not seeing certain things? I crushed several 3400+ masters with mech. They 1a'ed into my tankline and they played against me like they do when I play bio. Against such a players mech is just awesome, I AGREE. But against a protoss player that expands like a zerg and abuses my tank immobility, I lose so hard, even after killing a big amount of probes.
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On February 19 2011 18:05 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:56 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:44 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions. you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?) Well why are you moving out to attack when he's already in your base? Mech terran is not mobile. If you see your opponent making the most mobile force possible in order to take advantage of that weakness, either keep your army in your base to defend or have it right outside his base, with sensor towers so you can walk into his base and kill him the moment he leaves it. There's no reason to ever have your army sitting in the middle of the map against someone whose entire plan consists of leaving his base undefended so he can poke at yours. You don't understand this terran mech. I'm 100% sure that a) you are master but never played mech or b) you played mech but on diamond level. Imagine playing lost temple. You tanks are at the xel naga tower. You see red dots moving towards your main. You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main. 1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat. 2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win. Some people tell to spread your tanks out. Well, indeed, lets place 5 tanks in my main, and then continue my line towards my nat and my third. The line will be so thin that it's a party for a 200/200 mobile protoss army. He will pick off your main tanks, kill your production buildings, retreat and then delay your 4th and 5th. Am I not seeing certain things? I crushed several 3400+ masters with mech. They 1a'ed into my tankline and they played against me like they do when I play bio. Against such a players mech is just awesome, I AGREE. But against a protoss player that expands like a zerg and abuses my tank immobility, I lose so hard, even after killing a big amount of probes.
I agree to a certain extent, but you can overcome a lot of it with good placement and good game sense. My story is pretty much exactly like yours... But it's easy to fall in that trap of "I can't do anything against it" when in reality there is always a way, you just have to find it.
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On February 19 2011 18:05 Dente wrote:
You tanks are at the xel naga tower. You see red dots moving towards your main. You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main.
1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat.
2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win.
Some people tell to spread your tanks out. Well, indeed, lets place 5 tanks in my main, and then continue my line towards my nat and my third. The line will be so thin that it's a party for a 200/200 mobile protoss army. He will pick off your main tanks, kill your production buildings, retreat and then delay your 4th and 5th.
Well, I don't have access to a computer with SC2 on it at the moment, so I can't check things like tower and tank ranges, but this is a general idea of how I would defend on Lost Temple, assuming cross positions. Blue circles are sensor towers, blue squares are turrets and the curvy line done with the MSPaint Airbrush is your tanks. The rest of your army (if you have 200/200 of tanks then obviously you'll be outmaneuvered, you should have a fair thor/hellion/viking force too) is probably hanging around near your Xel'Naga tower. So, assuming they try to attack through routes A, B or C (I can't see any other viable ways):
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/LoDit.jpg)
A: Straight through the middle, they walk into your army and die horribly. I'm not sure whether tanks in the position I put them would reach the fight; if not they may need to be placed a bit closer, which won't change much.
B: Sneaking around into your main to wreck production and kill workers. You'll see it coming and be able to reposition your army fast enough to defend against it. Assuming you place a couple of turrets in key positions (and you have enough minerals to) no observers will be able to see your army reposition, and their attacking force walks straight into it and dies. If they back off, you back off too and nothing happens, so everything is fine.
C: Going around the other side to hit your gold base, the stalkers blink across while the collosi use their long range. With proper sensor tower placement you can see it coming from miles off and either block it by moving your army in (again, if you've denied observer scouting they'll walk into your army and take casualties before backing off) or you can wait until they reach your base, then move around the back of his army, trap it and destroy it. Vikings deal with the collosi easily and thor/hellion/ghost can take care of stalkers even if your tanks don't arrive in time.
This is assuming you're playing defensively; if you can get a contain by getting up to their Xel'Naga or further all you need is a sensor tower or two to spot them going around the side so you can simply walk in and demolish their base.
Close positions is similar; if you can get to the Xel'Naga all you need is a marine at the other Xel'Naga to spot them walking all the way around the map to hit your base and you can just base race them, in which case you will win. Even if you can't get to the Xel'Naga you're probably stuck on 2 bases, in which case there's very little surface area for your tanks to defend anyways. If you somehow have 3 bases in close positions LT without having map control then wtf is going on. Close air positions is certainly more difficult to defend, at least at first glance, but maybe that's just the random number generator's way of telling you to not go mech this game. Imbalanced maps and spawns happen.
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On February 19 2011 18:59 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 18:05 Dente wrote:
You tanks are at the xel naga tower. You see red dots moving towards your main. You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main.
1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat.
2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win.
Some people tell to spread your tanks out. Well, indeed, lets place 5 tanks in my main, and then continue my line towards my nat and my third. The line will be so thin that it's a party for a 200/200 mobile protoss army. He will pick off your main tanks, kill your production buildings, retreat and then delay your 4th and 5th. Well, I don't have access to a computer with SC2 on it at the moment, so I can't check things like tower and tank ranges, but this is a general idea of how I would defend on Lost Temple, assuming cross positions. Blue circles are sensor towers, blue squares are turrets and the curvy line done with the MSPaint Airbrush is your tanks. The rest of your army (if you have 200/200 of tanks then obviously you'll be outmaneuvered, you should have a fair thor/hellion/viking force too) is probably hanging around near your Xel'Naga tower. So, assuming they try to attack through routes A, B or C (I can't see any other viable ways): A: Straight through the middle, they walk into your army and die horribly. I'm not sure whether tanks in the position I put them would reach the fight; if not they may need to be placed a bit closer, which won't change much. B: Sneaking around into your main to wreck production and kill workers. You'll see it coming and be able to reposition your army fast enough to defend against it. Assuming you place a couple of turrets in key positions (and you have enough minerals to) no observers will be able to see your army reposition, and their attacking force walks straight into it and dies. If they back off, you back off too and nothing happens, so everything is fine. C: Going around the other side to hit your gold base, the stalkers blink across while the collosi use their long range. With proper sensor tower placement you can see it coming from miles off and either block it by moving your army in (again, if you've denied observer scouting they'll walk into your army and take casualties before backing off) or you can wait until they reach your base, then move around the back of his army, trap it and destroy it. Vikings deal with the collosi easily and thor/hellion/ghost can take care of stalkers even if your tanks don't arrive in time. This is assuming you're playing defensively; if you can get a contain by getting up to their Xel'Naga or further all you need is a sensor tower or two to spot them going around the side so you can simply walk in and demolish their base. Close positions is similar; if you can get to the Xel'Naga all you need is a marine at the other Xel'Naga to spot them walking all the way around the map to hit your base and you can just base race them, in which case you will win. Even if you can't get to the Xel'Naga you're probably stuck on 2 bases, in which case there's very little surface area for your tanks to defend anyways. If you somehow have 3 bases in close positions LT without having map control then wtf is going on. Close air positions is certainly more difficult to defend, at least at first glance, but maybe that's just the random number generator's way of telling you to not go mech this game. Imbalanced maps and spawns happen.
Route B is this:
You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main.
1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat.
2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win.
By the time you unsieged at the xel naga tower, he is in your main. Good luck moving your tanks up the ramp. You talk about turrets: the collossus will take a couple of hits, but then the stalkers have vision. No observers needed there.
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On February 19 2011 20:20 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 18:59 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 18:05 Dente wrote:
You tanks are at the xel naga tower. You see red dots moving towards your main. You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main.
1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat.
2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win.
Some people tell to spread your tanks out. Well, indeed, lets place 5 tanks in my main, and then continue my line towards my nat and my third. The line will be so thin that it's a party for a 200/200 mobile protoss army. He will pick off your main tanks, kill your production buildings, retreat and then delay your 4th and 5th. Well, I don't have access to a computer with SC2 on it at the moment, so I can't check things like tower and tank ranges, but this is a general idea of how I would defend on Lost Temple, assuming cross positions. Blue circles are sensor towers, blue squares are turrets and the curvy line done with the MSPaint Airbrush is your tanks. The rest of your army (if you have 200/200 of tanks then obviously you'll be outmaneuvered, you should have a fair thor/hellion/viking force too) is probably hanging around near your Xel'Naga tower. So, assuming they try to attack through routes A, B or C (I can't see any other viable ways): A: Straight through the middle, they walk into your army and die horribly. I'm not sure whether tanks in the position I put them would reach the fight; if not they may need to be placed a bit closer, which won't change much. B: Sneaking around into your main to wreck production and kill workers. You'll see it coming and be able to reposition your army fast enough to defend against it. Assuming you place a couple of turrets in key positions (and you have enough minerals to) no observers will be able to see your army reposition, and their attacking force walks straight into it and dies. If they back off, you back off too and nothing happens, so everything is fine. C: Going around the other side to hit your gold base, the stalkers blink across while the collosi use their long range. With proper sensor tower placement you can see it coming from miles off and either block it by moving your army in (again, if you've denied observer scouting they'll walk into your army and take casualties before backing off) or you can wait until they reach your base, then move around the back of his army, trap it and destroy it. Vikings deal with the collosi easily and thor/hellion/ghost can take care of stalkers even if your tanks don't arrive in time. This is assuming you're playing defensively; if you can get a contain by getting up to their Xel'Naga or further all you need is a sensor tower or two to spot them going around the side so you can simply walk in and demolish their base. Close positions is similar; if you can get to the Xel'Naga all you need is a marine at the other Xel'Naga to spot them walking all the way around the map to hit your base and you can just base race them, in which case you will win. Even if you can't get to the Xel'Naga you're probably stuck on 2 bases, in which case there's very little surface area for your tanks to defend anyways. If you somehow have 3 bases in close positions LT without having map control then wtf is going on. Close air positions is certainly more difficult to defend, at least at first glance, but maybe that's just the random number generator's way of telling you to not go mech this game. Imbalanced maps and spawns happen. Route B is this: You unsiege your tanks, then you move them to your main. 1) You move everything to your main? He can retreat. 2) You move 50% to your main, 50% to the cliff, so you can sandwish him. You never moved tanks up your cliff and then sieged them, right? It takes forever and if he catches you unsieged (which is very possible, thx to blink) he will kill your 50%. Gratz, you now have 50% tanks outside your main and your production facilities are all picked off. Now you can move the other 50% towards your main, or you can counter attack him. You will lose in both cases because a good toss will expand like a zerg while you are defending like a mad dog! Then there is 0 chance that you will win. By the time you unsieged at the xel naga tower, he is in your main. Good luck moving your tanks up the ramp. You talk about turrets: the collossus will take a couple of hits, but then the stalkers have vision. No observers needed there.
Not at all. Route B is this:
You unsiege your tanks, move them about half a screen to the left right while also moving most of your more mobile units along with them. He doesn't know you moved them, because you've been using turrets to block observers. He walks into range of your tanks and loses a fair chunk of his army instantly, then either backs off, having lost a few stalkers and taken damage on a bunch more, or continues moving forwards and dies.
You're assuming the Protoss player is maphacking. If you place your turrets and towers correctly they'll have no vision at all of half of the map, and will have to just blindly pick a route into your base while hoping you don't have any units there. And since your towers are giving you vision of half the map, you will have units there.
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3.3k Master Terran
Helion/Tank has worked wonders for me in late game TvP.
Mix in vikings because they are just so good vs collosi or to deal with VRs. (Note that surprise VRs will kill you if you have no viking ready)
Mix in ghosts to help. I've found that I can handle full Protoss balls of immortals/ghost/whatever without EMP and do just fine.
During engagement, let your helions tank. Reinforce them as they die, try to keep tanks alive.
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I don't get why everyones so obsessed with hellion/tank as your core, why not hellion/thor? Its still immobile but more mobile then hellion tank and it is already well setup to deal with immortals and to some extent colossus (theory). Why do you guys feel that tanks are better then thors in this scenario? I guess the thor has some range issues but I feel like these are helped alot by hellions getting rid of the zealot wall.
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On February 20 2011 02:58 statikg wrote:
I don't get why everyones so obsessed with hellion/tank as your core, why not hellion/thor? Its still immobile but more mobile then hellion tank and it is already well setup to deal with immortals and to some extent colossus (theory). Why do you guys feel that tanks are better then thors in this scenario? I guess the thor has some range issues but I feel like these are helped alot by hellions getting rid of the zealot wall.
Thors are really really bad vs colossus
Tanks in large numbers > colossus (if targeted) and if you use your hellions to kill the zealots strictly they will get absolutely owned by the colossus before your thors even get to fire on them.
Tanks have splash as well obviously.
Hellions beat immortals anyway but I build thors basically as meat shields and to mess up pathing for the protoss (and they do pretty decent vs stalkers that arent focusing them down)
I dont build more than 4-5 thors though.
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1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
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On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
What about cost, supply, build time, armory requirement? Strike cannons are useful only in smaller skirmishes.. The second the supply goes like 150+ you can forget about strike cannoning Colossus. Your Thors will dissapear the as they start the animation..
To start off Tank vs Thor discussion..
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On February 20 2011 03:50 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
What about cost, supply, build time, armory requirement? Strike cannons are useful only in smaller skirmishes.. The second the supply goes like 150+ you can forget about strike cannoning Colossus. Your Thors will dissapear the as they start the animation.. To start off Tank vs Thor discussion..
1. I didnt make a perfect comparsion with supply and cost i agree (will be nice i someone will do that), i just mentioned some "micro" issues that thors having the edge over tanks.
2. I agree that strike cannons might be not usfull on big clashes. but many people asked "How do i get to have mass thors and not dying first?" - Well, strike cannon might be the answer for these earlier scenarios..
3. Thors are not the answer to colossus, neither do i think tanks are, once i spot colossus i will start vikings production
4. Its really a matter of good position when thors are involved in ur army, I have lost many fight with them when i had same food count, and crushed many fight when i had same food count (both of them vs same deathball compostion), and i just found that on the battles i lost i had half of my thors not involving during the fight, cuz they are quite clumsy and slow - so its all of matter of good positioning, protecting them with hellions and vikings, and be ready to throw EMPs.
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On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
Thors die like instantly vs colossus so good luck going strike cannon -_-
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On February 20 2011 04:10 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 03:50 Everlong wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
What about cost, supply, build time, armory requirement? Strike cannons are useful only in smaller skirmishes.. The second the supply goes like 150+ you can forget about strike cannoning Colossus. Your Thors will dissapear the as they start the animation.. To start off Tank vs Thor discussion.. 1. I didnt make a perfect comparsion with supply and cost i agree (will be nice i someone will do that), i just mentioned some "micro" issues that thors having the edge over tanks. 2. I agree that strike cannons might be not usfull on big clashes. but many people asked "How do i get to have mass thors and not dying first?" - Well, strike cannon might be the answer for these earlier scenarios.. 3. Thors are not the answer to colossus, neither do i think tanks are, once i spot colossus i will start vikings production4. Its really a matter of good position when thors are involved in ur army, I have lost many fight with them when i had same food count, and crushed many fight when i had same food count (both of them vs same deathball compostion), and i just found that on the battles i lost i had half of my thors not involving during the fight, cuz they are quite clumsy and slow - so its all of matter of good positioning, protecting them with hellions and vikings, and be ready to throw EMPs.
Mass tank and a handful vikings are fine to stopping colossus.
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On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball.
2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight.
3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership.
4. Their dps is amazing in any case.
5. They can control space, while Thors cannot.
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On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot.
on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging.
on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers
and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them.
In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
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On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
1) Charge is not the answer to Mech; it's utterly dumb in fact; large number of Blue Flame Helions instantly vaporize your Zealots
2) Tanks in big numbers basically kill everything out of the Gateway in large numbers. Anything. That includes those pesky Archons.
3) Watch Sadist game vs ChikaPrime and OptikZero where Archons, DTs, VRs, and a bunch of other "typical" mech counters show up and Sadist still wins. In fact, I don't think Sadist ever lost a single straight up fight; he lost when he got overwhelmed by reinforcements.
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when u have 20+ tank, no protoss units can match with them, they basically destroy everything on the ground, but only in large number....critical number here is crucial.
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On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position.
watch the replays I posted seriously.
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Sadist how do you hold a 3 gate robo all in with this build? It seems that you simply don't have alot of troops if you do this. Something like an Immortal/Stalker/Sentry early all in would really hurt your opening.
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On February 20 2011 05:17 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 04:48 dohgg wrote:On February 20 2011 04:21 Bleak wrote:On February 20 2011 03:36 dohgg wrote:
1. Thors are much more robust then tanks
2. They can absorve alot of storms
3. They can use their strike cannons vs key units (+ they stunning also when cannon is working) as immortals, archons, colossus and even snipe nexus fast.
4. They are more mobile then tanks, which helps alot when combined with hellions.
5. Thier DPS on 3 attack is insane as each upgrade gives them +6 dmg per round of attack.
6. Not as tanks, they can shoot from zero range, and they dont have any friendly fire.
7. I'll still use vikings in my army, but they are very viable once air get mass and toss isnt magic boxing.
1. Tanks deal splash damage, and Protoss units move in a ball. 2. Tanks have a huge range, so they can start shelling once the army gets in sight. 3. If you spread them correctly and have enough, most of the times you will be able to trade well with Protoss as long as you keep up in upgrades and prepare for mass immortal/air/mothership. 4. Their dps is amazing in any case. 5. They can control space, while Thors cannot. on 1. Prottos units moves on a ball, bot once the ball gets near your tanks, Chraglots AI spreading the ball and that splash damage starts to work on the charglots, and to self dmg ur hellions and tanks gropus the charglots are charging. on 4. Their DPS isnt that amazing on small numbers and Charglots and Blink stalkers gets 1 shot before they get to zero range vs them. In general, Immortals And Vr's are so hard counter vs them, and tanks usage requires alot of factors as good map positioning and well awarness on enemy on position. watch the replays I posted seriously.
Can't find the replays are they in the original post or somewhere else in this thread?
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Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
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On February 20 2011 10:44 SouLja wrote:Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
Well, i think i can this one, as also all my TvP are involving with alot of blue flame hellions.
A big deal of having blue flame hellions in ur army compostion is not just for dealing with zealots, its alot about harrasing.
On TvP hellion can kite anything, which means they r faster then any ground unit toss has, add their spalsh dmg and 24 dmg on light after upgrade and you get the cheapest deadliest haras unit u have on the game.
Which means - NOT harasing with them is a bad idea, not a "passive" play, u gotta haras with them.
If your first haras fails, then ur 2ed will, or u 3rd....
Toss will have to respond in few ways
1. Make cannons, and he'll need more then 1 = great sucsses for you, as he spent minerals on static defences, and less strength on his "deathball"
2. Keep atleast 3 stalkers on his minerals lines = Less stalkers on his deathball
Warping tech wont work cuz with 4 hellions u'll be able to kill so much probes with blue flame hellions, before warp even finish.
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On February 20 2011 10:44 SouLja wrote:Just watched those reps. How does this fare against 4gate? Also, it seems to me like the blue flame helion drops were what won you the games, as in, you could have done pretty much anything to win after you took out half their probes. It's like in BW if you end up getting vulture drops or vulture run bys, you can just wait a bit, macro up to 200/200 and pretty much attack move in to protoss. How do the games end up faring if you can't get any helion harass to work?
I still end up winning, its obviously a little tougher. If they dont go phoenix youll eventually get in and kill probes anyway (same with phoenix really, itll just happen later).
Blue flame hellions dont let them just outright attack you because you just backdoor them if they come out. People havent been trying to 4 gate me so im not SUPER sure, something with a backdoor like delta would definitely needed to be walled off.
Besides blink stalker and phoenix nothing can stop you from running around with hellions.
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One upgrade I rarely see people get is the Hi-Sec Auto Tracking. I use missile turrets to fill in a lot of holes in my defenses and often times while pushing out as well. Seems like a great upgrade considering many toss go stargate tech vs mech, the range even helps pick off the occasionally mismicrco'd observer too.
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So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs.
------------------------------------------ playd delta quadrant ... how can i harras ?!?! I had 4-6 herrions trying to do shit. 3 cannons at each base anihilate any atempt. Drops are excluded or very few - i need gas for tanks.
Going back to mobility and toss whine mmm is broken. GL HF !
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On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs.
You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals.
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On February 20 2011 13:58 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs. You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals.
You my friend have to write a guide. Just saw your replays. Really good stuff. Alot of things people have neglected such as hellions. Once you got that hellion cloud even stalkers melted. I think the issue is that people just wanna go Tank and win and forget how essential Hellions are.
I noted that as battle happened you would cut tank production in order to rally hellions to the battle and continue the push. Good stuff.
Mech by no means is easy and I think thats whats frustrating alot of people. Mech like in BW is hard.You need to harass, expand alot, and upgrades must be consistent.
And the Third base is so critical. More for the gas then the minerals. But really good stuff.
Note: For all you Bronzies hating on Sadist go play Protoss or something because this guy knows what he's talking about. Frikkin make Hellions people. Rather then qq saying it can't be done, play more learn it and win. And frikkin take this guys advice.
Sooner or later he's gonna get sick of defending mech and frikkin stop helping us.
TY Sadist.
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On February 20 2011 14:16 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 13:58 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2011 13:54 Tomtaietot wrote:
So ... i've playd mech for the last time ... IT S FUCKING BROKEN...
MMM is such a easy win ... mech is just stupid ... i had enough ... 200/200 mass tank/vikings almost traded armies ... toss warps instantly and wins ... fuck this.
I miss the vulture mines ffs. You need hellions not just mass tank viking. Add a couple thors in there too to tank shots from the immortals. You my friend have to write a guide. Just saw your replays. Really good stuff. Alot of things people have neglected such as hellions. Once you got that hellion cloud even stalkers melted. I think the issue is that people just wanna go Tank and win and forget how essential Hellions are. I noted that as battle happened you would cut tank production in order to rally hellions to the battle and continue the push. Good stuff. Mech by no means is easy and I think thats whats frustrating alot of people. Mech like in BW is hard.You need to harass, expand alot, and upgrades must be consistent. And the Third base is so critical. More for the gas then the minerals. But really good stuff. Note: For all you Bronzies hating on Sadist go play Protoss or something because this guy knows what he's talking about. Frikkin make Hellions people. Rather then qq saying it can't be done, play more learn it and win. And frikkin take this guys advice. Sooner or later he's gonna get sick of defending mech and frikkin stop helping us. TY Sadist.
Good post you hit a key point here, the importance of the 3rd when playing mech, thats my only difficulty I have now that I have switched to mech, my gamesa re dependant on if I can get my third or not, if I can get my third I will definately get my macro up to easily reach a critcial mass of hellion/tank. However if I cant ge tmy third then I end up having a very hard time
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Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
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On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I feel like it helps defend and discourage people from trying to rush me with a stalker or zealot or something. Also the conc traps them if they try to attack my bunker or something. I partly posted the replays for reasons like this, id like to solidify the build and make it as efficient and safe as possible.
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On February 20 2011 15:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I feel like it helps defend and discourage people from trying to rush me with a stalker or zealot or something. Also the conc traps them if they try to attack my bunker or something. I partly posted the replays for reasons like this, id like to solidify the build and make it as efficient and safe as possible.
Ah well Ive been opening up with either
A 1 fact expo(Easy to def natural maps such as LT)
or a two fact expo(Sjow style maps like Xel, this build can actully also pressure a 1 gate FE much like a fake double in BW)
Both expand around 30 and transition into pure mech very well.
As regards to the 2nd armory, I think it should be built the second you get your third saturated. Armor upgrades are so nice for mech, espcially on your hellion harasses, with +2 armor hells I can really last a long time and get so many probe kills its just dumb.
Also I think sensors towers are also a major buff to this build that you shoudl try out. Plus my bunk walls are a great addition once your economy is up. Check out page 7 if you havent for my sample setup.
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I have trouble ending the game with pure mech (around 4 or more bases). Even though I can kill P's army easily, I can't deal the finishing blow to end the game. Hellions don't do anything to buildings, good building placements stop any poking. Tanks are just so immobile when killing bases, requiring a lot of patience leap frogging the tanks while P has 2 warp prisms having constant Ht drops at my bases. I recently lost to a mass VR switch (he hid them and I couldn't tech switch fast enough). So I was wondering if tech switch to banshees/BCs would be good very late game, as they'll be very mobile and easier to finish the game than pure mech can. Btw, I copied Sadist's bo and it's very good.
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On February 20 2011 15:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
Ok I watched the sadist replay, and now the solution for your third seems easier. I wasnt adding thors mid game which mean I just wasnt having the firepower mid game I needed.
As in all builds tho I have a few questions for Sadist.
-I still dont get the rauder opening?? Why not open a siege expand or something the rauders seemed to eat some gas up and not really do anything.
- You were extremely gas heavy late game, yet you stuck to 1 armory and only had two tech lab facts, was this just a macro mistake or is there a reasoning behind it?
I'm guessing that since Bio is the commonality these days. This makes people think your gonna play bio. Thus keeping your strategy up in the air. It is also safer against stalker pokes. and can mildly pressure 14 Nex.
As for armory- Sadist i noticed the 3 factories with Tech labs off of 2 bases. Ive noted that with 2 factories you can still have enough gas for double Ups.
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BC's are the best
24 bcs + 20 viking + 6 ghost = invincible army ^^
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I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots.
So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port.
The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily.
Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed.
I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town .
As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees.
tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration
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On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration
Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp?
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On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp?
It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy.
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On February 21 2011 00:18 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp? It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy.
when do you get ur xport?
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On February 21 2011 00:20 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2011 00:18 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 00:06 thoradycus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 23:39 Devlawl wrote:I agree that bio play all game requires you to be very aggressive through early pressure and drop play however I think this becomes harder and harder to execute versus more solid protoss players. I have also experimented with bio early game and then transitioning into heavy tank and bio play with some success but I wasn't happy with it as tank/bio becomes inefficient when the protoss gets immortals/chargelots. So recently I have been playing with a variation of iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT where instead of 2fact helion production, you go 1rax maurauder production and 1fact blue flame helion then 2port. The build is quite stable vs any sort of 1base protoss play as helion/maurauder is a very strong defense versus gateway units and the helion also allows easy scouting so you can react accordingly to say a 3gate/robo or 3gate/stargate by producing the correct counter out of your starports. Also a blue flame helion drop punishes their 1base all in easily. Mid-Late game then involves blue helion harass, which in my opinion is much less risky and more effective than tech snipe drops due to the helions speed and the rediculous mineral line devastation in seconds they can produce, and building the "Terran deathball" of maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking. This combo is quite strong off 2base and off 3base+ I usually add battlecruisers as it goes with the air dominance and means that really only air upgrades are needed. I have found this combo is very cost efficient late game, as long as you stay on top of managing your composition proportions to counter theirs (eg. they start going pheonix to counter your air dominance, just produce more vikings to maintain air dominance), the maurauders and helions are really just there to tank damage and deal decent damage to the gateway units while the raven and vikings snipe any observers and pdd absorbs the stalker/pheonix damage. The pdd usually gives enough time to snipe the observers and allow the mass cloaked banshee to go to town . As for high templar builds, I havn't versed any protoss who have managed to make an effective switch to them (eg. they get HTs but they didn't have the gas to get enough stalkers so helions just roll them or its too little too late due to successful helion harass making his economy abysmal) but too be honest I'd rather have a micro battle of the protoss having to get good feedbacks off while I try to roast his high templar and snipe the obs before they can feedback my banshees. tl;dr maurauder/helion/banshee/raven/viking is kickass start to finish and thanks iEchoic for the inspiration Um,this builds effective at what level?When do you get your expo?DOnt you think its too gas heavy for such a comp? It is a bit micro intensive at times so I reckon it is effective at platinum or higher. As for the expo it works like the iEchoic's TvT build like I said. Essentially the only difference is that your production starts off with 1rax maurauder and 1fact helion instead of 2fact helion production and the fact that your responding to a protoss's tech. The 2port and fact is delayed slightly due to maurauder production but no I don't think it is too gas heavy. when do you get ur xport?
As soon as you can after blue flame research has started.
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I just found a way for protoss to attack in to tank helion for up to 80 supply of army (didn't test any further) and come out way ahead (3-5 colli + a few immortals). I do not think mech is viable.
Try this in unit test map or wherever. Zealot stalker sentry in standard amounts you'd see in game, hallucinate researched, immortal (about 3-5) colli (about 3-5). Hallucinate as many immortals as you can, a 1:1 ratio is just fine though. Spread out your units so you're not clumped up and put hallucinated immortals at the front. As long as you don't clump up too much, you should be able to roll the terran mech army and come out way ahead. Worst case scenario is your ground gets rolled in which case you can pull out colli. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have 3-5 immortals and 3-5 colli if the terran will have 15+ tanks.
I guess terran could emp in which case protoss would get rolled by the mech.
That is all.
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Just tried mech vs protoss and i have to say that something like jinro did vs mc is very viable, only trouble i can foresee is having less than the critical number of tanks in the mid game and possibly not getting enough vikings to deal with phoenix or VR. Although with some bunker turtling etc i think it can be achieved and im definitely going to use it now instead of mid-late game bio crap
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MMM+Thors rock. Ghosts are fantastic, though I'm a bit lazy about them :/
Since macroing MMM+Thors isn't too hard, I kinda look past the Ghosts, though I should build them more often, especially vs Templars..
Thors also work pretty well vs Sentries and FFs in the late game. Don't need to worry about getting your army cut in half and losing it.
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
get a few ghosts out and emp your Battlecruisers before an engagement, saw painuser do this against kiwi thought it was brilliant.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2746/pvttl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011021821324.jpg/)
