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in addition when u play mech(or even bio, why not) don't forget to place the factory like this, u save a lot of space in your main
![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8389/screenshot2011021821324.jpg)
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This is a little bit off topic, but seems like there's a lot of master terran here so I wanted to ask. What is the main difference between going from diamond to master league? assuming you were once lower diamond. Did you guys have a lot of previous broodwar experience? I'm having trouble moving out of diamond.
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I find ghosts to be absolutely critical. Usually just 1 rax making them is enough too. Stalkers die insanely fast once they've been emped, and obviously immortals have no hardened shield after an EMP. I've also found tanks to be a bit meh, thors seem to work much much better. Vikings seem to be useful anyways even if they don't go air they can deal with colossi/deal a good bit of dps sitting behind thors. People seem to forget vikings have more dps than stalkers do.
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As a protoss player, I feel that the only thing which can bring me down in the late game is ghosts/mech but for having also plaid Terran I know that the combination is too gaz-heavy.
I guess Terran users will have to seach for innovative ways to get to this unit combination. Eventually, if nothing can be done to reach it safely, I guess that the ghost gaz cost should be reduced a little. It's not like that change would have any serious effect on TvZ balance.
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On February 19 2011 06:03 TeWy wrote:
As a protoss player, I feel that the only thing which can bring me down in the late game is ghosts/mech but for having also plaid Terran I know that the combination is too gaz-heavy.
I guess Terran users will have to seach for innovative ways to get to this unit combination. Eventually, if nothing can be done to reach it safely, I guess that the ghost gaz cost should be reduced a little. It's not like that change would have any serious effect on TvZ balance.
Its not that hard, you just have to fast expand and take a quick third while turtling all along. Its pretty amazing what some bunkers and tanks can hold off, or bunkers and thors. Obviously you have to harass while turtling, that is a given.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this.
Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all.
Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
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On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
You haven't even bothered to look at Sadist's replays. OptikZero despite having a huge econ advantage early lost due to the cost efficiency of Mech in head on fights and Helion harassment.
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On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think.
Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work.
When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech.
Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming?
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On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming?
mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser.
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On February 19 2011 09:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. You haven't even bothered to look at Sadist's replays. OptikZero despite having a huge econ advantage early lost due to the cost efficiency of Mech in head on fights and Helion harassment.
You're right I didn't, but that doesn't equate for all cases.
And I never said mech doesn't work, I'm advocating it, I was saying the dude I was quoting was super wrong. And no, the only time youll have more bases than toss with mech is when either the toss is bad, or you got way ahead way early.
One more thing, if a protoss ever decides pure stalker colossus is the answer to your mech build, you pretty much won, its the other things that bite. (in conjunction with colossus.)
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That's why you need sensor towers. On most maps theres only one part of your base where he can do the deed of cliff walking/blink. If you scout blink stalks and collsi then immeditatly throw turrets/sensor towers and a few tanks on the ledge. Youll see his army coming which will give you the jump you can unseige your main line and begin heading back to your main. Vikings help alot here because they are mobile and can start sniping the collsus while you wait for your tank lines to get back to your main. After I hold the first wave off il add some thors and then push out. Tank+Thor+hellion+Viking cleans up stalk collsi so fast its unbelivable absolutely unbeliavable watching stalks pop to tanks.
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On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser.
So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor.
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On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor.
it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army.
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On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army.
Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions.
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On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it  ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
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On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions.
you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?)
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On February 19 2011 10:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
Denies scouting and its necessary vs voidray rushes.
Ive been doing it just about every game for practice because I wanted to get a solid build order vs just about everything
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 10:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) I dont understand that early turret + enginerring bay?
He didn't scout P's tech so dt is a possibility
edit: vr works too lol
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On February 19 2011 10:44 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 10:41 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:35 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 10:26 Ezekyle wrote:On February 19 2011 10:16 rauk wrote:On February 19 2011 09:52 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 09:04 PaleBlueDot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 16:50 Jayrod wrote:
Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this. Every single word of this is wrong, honestly I have never seen anything like it. Thinking protoss wont out-expand you in entrenched positions. Thinking protoss will attack your "entrenched" position when they can just blink up---->colossus into your bases among a ridiculous amount of other options. Most of your text is nonsensical at the very best, and shows the kind of thinking that makes me think you either don't play terran or do not have very much experience with it at all. Oh, and Terrans with macro skill are actually fairly common, its just that they actually know it does not work as well as people would think. Its actully not wrong at all, Stalker and collsus are heavily countered by tanks and vikings. So if your basing your whole strat around blinking and cliff walking into my base then what happens when I have a sensor tower right on my cliff and I see your plan a mile away and already have tanks on the ledge to wreak havoc on your onslaught. Then you end up with a composition that is already hard countered by mine and you can tell me how well that will work. When you play mech you are focused on getting expos rather than attacking, so the anwser is yes I can easily match P on expos. The differance is that with consistent hellion harass I am keeping the protoss economy in check killing tons of probes, so usually my economy pulls ahead when I go mech. Care to suggest anything else that makes mech completely wrong as you are so claiming? mech sucks on certain maps because you're just spread too thin trying to defend everything whereas protoss can keep his entire army together. if you've got like 3 or 4 tank on the ledge, his entire blink stalker colossi army can waltz into your base no problem. if you unsiege your entire army to bring it back, then he just cliffwalks/blinks out of your base. i've been experimenting with solid rings of turrets around my base and some patrolling vikings but i dunno how well that works against a dedicated harasser. So get sensor towers. If you can see him coming before he gets there you can move in and trap him. Get a few tanks and turrets in your main, as he walks in to poke the rest of your army moves over, he tries to just cliffwalk away and finds himself sandwiched between your defensive units and the rest of your army. On top of that, you can send hellions into his base every time his army moves out, and a dozen blue flame hellions is going to do a shitton more economic damage than even an entire stalker/collosus army. Once you've killed all his workers he can't make another army, so he's stuck with stalker/collosus against tank/viking/thor. it doesn't work like that. what league/rating are you playing? you need more than "a few" tanks to be able to actually deter a blink stalker/colossi army. if you don't have enough he's just walked right into your base and all your shit is outside of it and you lose every single production building. you are also hoping that protoss has zero obs and is not watching your army. Observers can be killed, and if his entire army is inside your base then of course a few tanks won't kill it. But if his entire army is in your base you can just do a base trade, and since Terran buildings can fly away the Protoss would have to already be at a massive advantage to win that. He can kill depots, refineries, ebays and armouries, while you kill every building he has and all his probes too, thanks to your hellions. you're doing a base trade wrong if you're moving out to attack his base when you've already been forced to lift up your production facilities. hellions are good but with pylon wall + cannon + warpin stalkers they slowly get less effective at killing probes to the point it's not really worth it unless he's on more than 3 bases (and when does that ever happen in sc2?)
Well why are you moving out to attack when he's already in your base? Mech terran is not mobile. If you see your opponent making the most mobile force possible in order to take advantage of that weakness, either keep your army in your base to defend or have it right outside his base, with sensor towers so you can walk into his base and kill him the moment he leaves it. There's no reason to ever have your army sitting in the middle of the map against someone whose entire plan consists of leaving his base undefended so he can poke at yours.
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Its not as much that hes making the most mobile force possible as it is just a regular ass protoss army gets that much mobility.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011021821324.jpg/)
