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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
Turn it into PvT!! Come over to the dark side =P Seriously. Deathballs are so much fun. I play diamonds that are outbasing me... I'm stuck on 2 bases, main mined out, getting harrassed all the time. Then boom. Mothership/void-rays/Collosi/stalkers/upgraded death ball wins me the day =) PS Vortex is SICK!! | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
Here's the really really simple solution: you need to have enough ghosts to EMP their WHOLE army. Once you do that mass mara will do the job perfectly fine. One point here is that people tend to try to EMP templar/ranged units, when if they are constrained they should be EMPing templar/zeals. An EMP on zeals is 5 shots from mara, an emp on stalkers is only 4 and not going to be turned into battle efficiency until the zeals are dead either. | ||
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wxlancer
United States14 Posts
Aside from the MVP vs Squirtle game that I'm sure everyone has seen, I thought this 45 minute TVP was very instructive on the subject: http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-mouzhasu-vs-t-escgoody-lost-temple-02-16-2011 (sorry if there is a liquid link to this as well) Mech has two major problems, as many have already mentioned, that only add to Protoss late game unit cost efficiency and strength: Since you aren't mobile enough to seriously threaten them, and you can't replace units like warpgates can, you may be able to survive through turtling, but never gain the advantage. You need reactor ports churning to keep up with any move to void rays...but your vikings serve no other purpose when the composition immediatly switches toward gateway or immortal, unless he happens to tech into carriers/mothership with a strong viking presence already. Ghosts supposedly do a good job against templar and other compositions, but they don't. Consider that any freshly warped templar with ammy can get off a storm - whereas you need to be a step ahead with ghosts. The common theme here is that anything mech/ghost does for terran cannot seize any sort of initiative against the Protoss. You are basically permanently turtling while the toss expands at will and can drop very cost effective harasses against you. We've already established that terran cannot rebuild his army at the same speed. In the replay, it takes Hasu awhile before he goes up the tech tree to carrier, but he is never seriously threatened. It takes basically the whole of Goody's army to defend even a small choke point, from which his expansions are easily harassed by isolated units, and from which the Colossus threaten constantly to just walk up the cliff and crush his production. As Terran, I feel our greatest strength is seizing the initiative, whether it's denying the Protoss early information or getting ahead economically with mules. But since bioball is so easily destroyed by any competent toss, and mech is at the moment incapable of seizing the initiative because of Protoss's steadily increasing mobility, I'm convinced that we HAVE to enter lategame with a decisive advantage to win this matchup. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On February 19 2011 02:31 naventus wrote: I don't understand why people are looking for solutions in mech that just don't work. Here's the really really simple solution: you need to have enough ghosts to EMP their WHOLE army. Once you do that mass mara will do the job perfectly fine. One point here is that people tend to try to EMP templar/ranged units, when if they are constrained they should be EMPing templar/zeals. An EMP on zeals is 5 shots from mara, an emp on stalkers is only 4 and not going to be turned into battle efficiency until the zeals are dead either. Good luck EMPing chargelots, HTs behind Colossus and the WHOLE army controlled by Protoss that can do something more than a-move.. Also say hi to 3 new warped-in templars as your ghosts are just being built on the other side of the map. edit: People are looking for solutions in mech not because it doesn't work. Its because nothing else that has been tried works really.. There were so many builds and compositions including ghosts and still we are where we are. So the next step is to try mech or something.. | ||
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Kyandid
Canada124 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
-Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone. -Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes. -Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall. Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings. Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote: Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable. -Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone. -Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes. -Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall. Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings. Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned. You can use those extra minerals on Planetary Fortresses in the middle of the map for more map control. People tend to underestimate the fact that you can just spam depots/bunkers/PFs almost everywhere with Mech. Chargealots are alot worse than Zealots from BW with legs, and there are no mines that the P can use against your mech army. I don't see how anyone can even complain about Chargealots when you also have Blue Flame Helions who by a certain number can essentially one shot an entire wave of Zealots. On February 19 2011 02:35 wxlancer wrote: 1400 Master Terran Aside from the MVP vs Squirtle game that I'm sure everyone has seen, I thought this 45 minute TVP was very instructive on the subject: http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-mouzhasu-vs-t-escgoody-lost-temple-02-16-2011 (sorry if there is a liquid link to this as well) Mech has two major problems, as many have already mentioned, that only add to Protoss late game unit cost efficiency and strength: Since you aren't mobile enough to seriously threaten them, and you can't replace units like warpgates can, you may be able to survive through turtling, but never gain the advantage. You need reactor ports churning to keep up with any move to void rays...but your vikings serve no other purpose when the composition immediatly switches toward gateway or immortal, unless he happens to tech into carriers/mothership with a strong viking presence already. Ghosts supposedly do a good job against templar and other compositions, but they don't. Consider that any freshly warped templar with ammy can get off a storm - whereas you need to be a step ahead with ghosts. The common theme here is that anything mech/ghost does for terran cannot seize any sort of initiative against the Protoss. You are basically permanently turtling while the toss expands at will and can drop very cost effective harasses against you. We've already established that terran cannot rebuild his army at the same speed. In the replay, it takes Hasu awhile before he goes up the tech tree to carrier, but he is never seriously threatened. It takes basically the whole of Goody's army to defend even a small choke point, from which his expansions are easily harassed by isolated units, and from which the Colossus threaten constantly to just walk up the cliff and crush his production. As Terran, I feel our greatest strength is seizing the initiative, whether it's denying the Protoss early information or getting ahead economically with mules. But since bioball is so easily destroyed by any competent toss, and mech is at the moment incapable of seizing the initiative because of Protoss's steadily increasing mobility, I'm convinced that we HAVE to enter lategame with a decisive advantage to win this matchup. Obviously someone hasn't played BW, because mech is played almost identical in that you have to camp, have good positioning, while also harassing well with Helions/Vultures in order to keep P expos in check. Although Vultures are better at contain/slowing down P pushes, you have to realize that blue flame Helions sneaking into expo(s)/main means alot of dead Probes no matter what, which wasn't always the case with Vultures. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:01 XXXSmOke wrote: Guys, I really think Mech can work. I doubted for awhile but after giving it a shot last night it seems doable. -Everybody is saying chargelots counter tanks..... If your going mech you have to have a mineral dump and of course that mineral dump is BLUE flame hellions. How can you even argue that charge lots counter tanks when it is understood that if your going mech you have2908321938 hellions thanks to ractors. The tosses ive been playing stop building zeals cuz they melt in one second one round of tank fire always goes off before they charge then like 2 shots from hellions and every zealot is gone. -Look at page 7 on this post with my pics, tell me how a protoss deathball is going to break that unless they go heavy air, which is EXACTLY what you want toss to do. Why??? Because we have the most cost-effective heavy air counter in the entire game. With two reactor ports you can get a critical mass of vikings in a matter of minutes. -Hellions/tank (tanks need to be spread) also actully counters immortals if you micro right, your hellions can actully focus fire down the shields of the clumped immortals just like marines. Your hellions also end up blocking the movement of the immortals. Combine this with my wall and the toss is going to have a very very hard time breaking the wall. Keep in mind as well Artosis's quote, one of the reasons mech is now viable is because of the void ray speed removal. Without speed I can kite Voids all day long with vikings. Give it a month or two and youll see bio completely disappear as a late game strat TvP, it just doenst work anymore guys. Protoss learned. I dont see it as clear as you do. Bio wont disappear completly. It will be a matter of maps. If huge maps are going to be standard then yes, you will probably see more mech play. Interestingly enough, one would say that the bigger map the more mobile army you need. But bigger map also means the game is likely to go into later stages where you wont keep up with bio no matter what. So I think with new maps included now people will work on mech based strategies and if those evolves at a similar fashion as bio based strategies then yes - mech will be viable and popular. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
recently ive been aiming for the same except instead of thors I get blueflame hellions. this way you keep most of your mobility. i think thors have their place but its not much beyond breaking forcefields. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote: Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough. EDIT: For those who say early mech is weak. You can;t just jump into mech unless you 1base 2 Fact into expand. Which only works against Expand builds. You have to open Bio mech(Marine Tank) or Heavy harass. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:19 GinDo wrote: TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough. Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage). Yes P has alot of good options to harass you with, but the only thing remotely equivalent to your Blue Flame Helion drop is a Templar drop, which is ALOT more expensive than your Helions. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:08 Everlong wrote: I dont see it as clear as you do. Bio wont disappear completly. It will be a matter of maps. If huge maps are going to be standard then yes, you will probably see more mech play. Interestingly enough, one would say that the bigger map the more mobile army you need. But bigger map also means the game is likely to go into later stages where you wont keep up with bio no matter what. So I think with new maps included now people will work on mech based strategies and if those evolves at a similar fashion as bio based strategies then yes - mech will be viable and popular. Well yea, I mean on steppes/or close base metal you are definately right. but even on some of the current maps I think mech is very viable such as Xel Naga, LT, DQ, Shakuras. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote: Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. Do tell me some Terran players that have more/ the same success as Goody playing full mech. I was under the impression that he is by far the most accomplished player using full mech. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:22 superstartran wrote: Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage). simply not true. Ps gateway army isnt weaker. the reason why this is very different from broodwar is cause tvp you had a VERY powerful combination with vultures/mines/tanks. 2of those 3 dont exist anymore and the 3rd is worse then it was for various reasons. stuff like easy to get powerful air, the immortal or the lol-easymode-supermobilereaver,the collosus just adds to it but isnt the reason for it | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 03:28 Sapphire.lux wrote: Do tell me some Terran players that have more/ the same success as Goody playing full mech. I was under the impression that he is by far the most accomplished player using full mech. I was less than impressed with a replay of goody. He had 3 tanks queued at each factory and dropping Hellions practically within Colo range. He played ultra passive and didn't expand enough | ||
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Sadist
United States7291 Posts
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal) Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack. If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids. I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy. People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly. 3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote: If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great) The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal) Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack. If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids. I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy. People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly. 3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote: And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote: Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above: For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So: 1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote: Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do. | ||
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