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On February 18 2011 03:55 statikg wrote:
I tested mass hellions against a fairly decent 4gate today and was able to hold. My build was:
12rax
13gas
-> bunker around 20 - 2-3 marines as minerals allowed
@100gas -> factory
@50 gas -> reactor on barracks
@100 gas -> factory
@25 gas -> tech lab on barracks
@150 gas -> blue flame
this was all accomplishable in good time off of the one gas
by the time the 4gate hits you should have a bunker with 2-3 marines as well as 3-4hellions. I needed to pull some scvs but luckily every 30 seconds another 3 hellions pop, and blue flame is up for the second wave of 4gate, and if its a really fast 1gas 4gate then they will have to have some zealots which basically become free kills.
I didn't go into the late game because I just massed up hellions and killed his entire army eventually with just the hellions, it will be more interesting to test into the late game but I thought it was interesting that this WAS a successful mech opening that held a 6minute 4gate.
I also tested with a friend and found that in large numbers hellions can easily beat gateway units for cost (where gas = minerals), I was microing my hellions first up close like roaches into kindve a surround and fire method, later in smaller numbers i just tried to take maximum advantage of the splash through good positioning. He tried to micro his stalkers around but he didnt do a great job.
Now this is still very much a work in process, so obviously if the toss didnt 4 gate I would have to cut hellion production at some point to expand and then the eventual idea is to get thors and air to supplement the hellions. I think its important to get 1stargate quickly to allow for hellion drops, so since u already have the infrastructure I think that a reactor on the starport would be the right decision since you can pretty much definitely expect a reaction of collosus (void rays would also be countered by this)
Since u have so many hellions hanging around it seems pretty obvious that you should be doing hellion drops and harassing at their expansion.
I am imagining after expanding throwing down another factory and making 1xthor 6xhellion and either 1xbanshee or 2x viking. I would put a tech lab on the 3rd factory so that you can make another thor when gas allows (probably not often).
I imagine an intelligent player would react to this build by making mass stalkers and transitioning into collosus so the biggest problem is going to be how to hold against the collosus. I think the idea would be to try to kite back the zealots with your hellions, kiting back behind the thors if necessary and once the zealots are dead, running straight up to the stalker line to try to do maximum damage (hellions are disposable). The main dps though is going to be thors so you want the thors to survive as long as possible the hellions DO play a dps role though so its gonna be important to get them in there and get +dmg upgrades. I am also thinking that strike cannons will be much more viable without any zealots blocking your thors from reaching the collosus, this means that the protoss will have to be kiting you back or get owned.
A big question would be, can you afford to make a quick starport for hellion drops or do you need to rush to thors faster in order to hold large numbers of stalkers/sentries.
Anyway massive theorycraft alert, unfortunately I don't have a ton of time to test this out this weekend but I will try. Hopefully this writeup will give people an idea to start working on. Its obviously gonna really depend on having the right ratio of vikings to ground units vs collosus, but thats hardly a new skill for us in TvP.
Other protoss compositions:
HTs - owned by hellions and thors, easy to escape storm, lots of hp, go down instnatly to hellions
voids - already have vikings
phenoix - destroyed by thors
mass gateway - hellions means no zealots, thors kill everything else with hellion meatshield and splash support damage
Other weaknesses - starport opening - this build basically has no defence against a starport opening so if you scout 2gas and your thinking its gonna be tech, you need to change it up immediately, I think that making alot of turrets and doing a blue flame drop since they are on 1 could be very effective
You can easily beat DTs with this build even without a turret by firing on your buildings/other units with the hellions and since u have a ton, the splash should get the (light and lowhp) dts.
Replay pls !
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Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP.
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On February 18 2011 06:14 XXXSmOke wrote:I like the idea of your play, however immorts counter thors very hard while the only thing that counters immorts are marines ghosts or banshees.
It seemes to be a huge problem is that the second you go pure mech, toss gets double robo and can chronoboost a shit ton of immorts and over run you so fast.
What about a MMM+Thor+A few tanks mix. It seems like your mech in this MU really needs some fodder to stay alive along enough to do its damage.
I do agree tho hellions
This is how most protoss think ... before they lose. The answer to thors is not immortals. Let me explain why.
First, there is strike cannon - yes, it does take some micro but it completely shuts down an equal number of immortals, if you go heavy thor that's easily 5-6 immortals just evaporating. Next, there is range - 7 range on thors vs 5 on immortals. With your gigantic hellion ball in front of your thors, only the front row of immortals will be in range - and that's the one getting blasted by your strike cannons . That is, if the protoss actually micros his immortals to shoot on your thors, not the hellions, and he doesn't get blocked by his stalkers. Also, with the hellion ball in front, the immortals shields will drain quite fast - if you didn't bring 1-2 ghosts to nullify the shields anyway.
Immortals only work good vs thors if they don't have support or strike cannons or you vastly outnumber the thors (like 2:1). And even then, only in small scale engagements, since the larger the battle becomes, the more problems you will get with the immortals small range.
I have failed with thors, but never against heavy immortal play.
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In a perfect world, the best unit comp would be an army full of gas heavy units : marauders, thors, tanks, medivacs, vikings, ghosts, banshees, and some mineral dump units like hellions. that's 775 gas to get one of each. To produce the bare minimum of that, you'd need at least 8 gases with enough minerals and mules/scvs to accommodate that much resource spending, not to mention the upgrades and production facilities that come with that.
Getting to a 4base econ is extremely difficult. Keeping your 4base econ is damn near impossible. There is no safe and quick way to get 4 bases saturated and keep them saturated.
Then the idea becomes, "What can we sacrifice? What works that's economically feasible?" So far, all I've found is that the only thing that works is if you keep your units alive.
I've been testing a 1raxFE into 2rax marine/ghost to cover the transition into mech or banshees. With unupgraded marines and EMP, marines can usually melt most of the toss army. It can also deflect most 4gates with bunkers. I tried using this opening to cover the transition to tier 2 and 3 units, but then I found I had no money to produce units with. It took me forever to get enough tanks and thors to match the toss army; I still got rolled in the end.
There simply isn't enough money to go around even on 2bases to produce a working mid-game army that hold's it's ground vs 2-3 collosi and can eventually top late game armies with 5-6 collosi.
The resources are too spread out between scvs, cc's, production buldings, expensive units, and time. It takes way too long to set up a late game army, and by the time we're there, Toss already has half the map with a better army.
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I am using this build i have developed on maps like xelnaga where nat his hard to defend (or bunker up correctly)
This starts with no gas to get fastest CC and OC possible (on ur main)
When starting CC i get fastest 2 gas bunker on ramp and go staright for fastest thor possible
When fac is done, asap starts armormy and 1 hellion before tech for scouting, also the extra OC will give more scans if hellion failed to scout properly,
The Extra OC will give alot of minerals early so that will be good used with another rax for more marines.
After u started producing ur 1st thor, u have 3 goals:
1. Ghost asap
2. marines marines marines
3. Reactored startport
When yout 1st thor is out, u can feel free to take ur nat with ur thor and bunch of marines to safely secure it vs any kind of attack (nothing have ever breaked me there with thor+marines+ghost on 10 min) and if u find really hard pressure, dont forget to pull ur SCV to autorepair the thor.
Usally after ur nat is secured u should start cutting marines production and move to blue flame hellions (unless ur scouted VRs), and start harassin with sneak attcks and drops, and mainly just get map control - Your hellions are your "speedlings".
Few point:
1. Get Armor vechiale asap
2. Have atleast 2 ghost with ur army all the time
3. DONT EVER leave ur thors w/o hellions cover - Wrost case scenario is that ur Thors get surrounded by zealots
4. If you scout immos - research cannon.
5. Vikings r still necessary vs colosus.
6. All gas should go to thors vikings and upgrades while spare minerals will go to hellions (Means: No Marines late game - Marines are only used early game, unless toss is going stargate, which means he wont have much "anti marines units")
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On February 17 2011 15:26 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 15:13 Touch wrote:On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote:On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks. This is so true. The mech army is the worlds most immobile force and needs to be practical impossible to kill. You beat it by out macroing with more bases slowly chipping at it and by abusing its mobility. Not 1a into the mech. Only problem is, they don't need to. 1a is the hard counter to mech.
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On February 18 2011 06:59 TimeSpiral wrote:
Gentlemen, if I may ...
===================
I've thought and played - long and hard - and struggled to find answer to the Terran late game. This thread focuses on TvP, but let's face it, it is a problem in TvZ as well. To stay on topic ...
The conclusion I've come to is strikingly similar to the OP! We may be on to something.
• Marauder
-- Beefy, deals with armored units well.
• Ghost
-- AoE, helps versus Zealots, but really helps against immortals and HTs
• Thor
-- Lots of HP and good single target DPS.
• MASS Medivac with Viking and Banshee support.
-- You actually have to be mobile in late game.
(1) You can fight straight up, but the goal is to have enough medivacs to transport your entire army. Thwarting expansions and avoiding head on collisions as much as possible.
(2) If you stress them out enough they will move out at the wrong times and you will have to fight them head on. The beauty of this tactic is that the entire backbone of your army is beefy: marauders, Ghosts, and Thors.
(3) You can actually make this transition from mid-game relatively easily.
Commenting on Mech in TvP
==============================
(1) You cannot move. Seiged Tanks cannot move. You cannot move your army to attack. Have I mentioned that Siege Tanks don't move?
(2) Zealots. Tanks and Thors simply cannot fight mass Zealot.
(3) Mech's anti-air is really, really bad.
(4) Who in their right mind would want to force Stargate play from a Protoss? They have the best airforce in the game, hands down.
(5) It could even be argued that their robo tech is stronger than the factory tech. Both the Immortal and the Colossi do just as much or more damage than a Siege Tank plus they can move.
Jinro beat MC with mech, yes. MVP, probably the best Terran in the world, literally got a+clicked by 3/3 Zealots + some support units and his 20+ 3/3 tanks melted. They each maybe shot once or twice. I was like ... "dear freaking god ..."
CONCLUSION
============
AoE, HUGE effective HP pool, and mobility must be maintained in mid and late game TvP.
Thors are a ridiculously strong asset to have lategame if your opponent is massing chargelots, so idk what you're talking about.
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I just lost any hope on tanks in TvP since they got nerf vs light.
I m just using alot of hellions and thors mixing with 2 ghosts and few vikings... thats my mech for TvP.. the hellions gives me great map control and lots of dead probes, i just prey for toss to go mass zealots
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3.3k Masters Terran
Agreed, tanks aren't great TvP, especially lategame. Even with emp, zealots destroy tanks. Also the fact that rebuild time for T armies take FOREVER for mech...
Maybe for P, there should be some type of diminished returns for warping in units in terms of distance from the gateway itself.
Warping in close to the gateway: no DR, warping in far away, larger cooldown, maybe that might balance it?
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It's too bad they didn't leave tanks at a flat 50 damage per shot. I feel the nerf to light had little to no effect on tvz, a mild effect on tvt, and was most hurtful in tvp. Would be interesting to see what tvp would be like currently if the change never went through.
In any case, I've been toying with the idea of going for a mix of mass thors/marauder/viking, with hellions/ghosts/tanks sprinkled in. I think tanks are just a bad option for damage dealing considering their expensive cost, weak damage to light, and relative ease of killing. I feel like having 4-5 max would be optimal in a maxed army as something that can be used to outrange protoss so you're not getting constantly poked by colossi.
Just a low level diamond giving my two cents.
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Another possible Idea.
Start with a 2 fac opening Hellion/tanks/marines to secure your FE. With your FE up for for a traditional 5 fact mech with upgrades using hellion harass like crazy do drops, run bys, whatever it takes to keep him on his toes while your getting your 2-1 upgrades(flash style anyone?)
Heres the differance tho one thing that is largely overlooked is the power of Terran buildings in SC2
-Sensor tower: This building is invaluable late game, being able to tell where the deathball is huge it can allow for you to get the extra few seconds to get yourself in a better position versus the deathball
-Bunker: Salvage is ridiclously good and needs to be used more often. My idea is based on bunkers, instead of using it for the intended use (w rines obviously) Why not use Bunkers in essence as a meat shield for your tanks/ hellions. Some strategic bunkers can clump the enemy's units or waste attacks as they are hitting the bunks and not your units. Imagine walling off with bunkers and the enemy trys to attack. All the zeals would be stuck hitting the bunkers and his stalks and immortals wouldnt be able to get in range to hit the tanks til the bunker wall is down. Im thinking about doing a leap frog bunker with salvage.
For example on Xel Naga that gold base is a perfect forward position to take vs the enemy. Imagine if you had a ton of bunkers all around that center position with a good tank spread. Using sensor towers you could easily react to where he will attack your perimeter.
When its time to attack you can treat the bunker wall just like spider mines in BW. Salvage them, get your money back and reposition your wall on a forward attack front, till you can starve the protoss.
This would be perfect with that +2 armor upgrade as well.
Im going to try this tonight and il get some screenshots of my walls. But for your imagination maybe this will make sense
B=Bunk
S=Supply
T=Tank
A typical perimeter will consist of
T
T Sensor T T
T T
B B B B S B B B B B
If the enemy attacks this front (bunks will be unit tight no units will have to go through the supply depot.) If he right clicks all of his units will go down through the narrow supply depot which is perfect for your hellions to roast and get the splash they need along with the tanks. If he tries to destory your wall then your siege tanks can get a couple extra shots in which with +3 attack is quite nasty. Also keep in mind you will have turrets spread nicely as well to stop observers. This will confuse the enemy because he wont be able to see any weak spots in your encampment(much like BW)
Edit* Tank diagram got screwed, but you know spread them out nicely like in BW, make sure you have a few tanks right on the bunker line tho so the toss cant just use collsi range to snipe your bunks.
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On February 18 2011 02:47 CleverDream wrote:
Plat Protoss here. It seems the only time we have an advantage over Terran is in the late game.
Early game transitions are in Terran's Favor. You can always open reaper and force stalkers, then to follow up with maurauders.
Mid game. MMM to pin us to our base while you expand freely. Its only until after we get storm+amulet that we have an actual advantage. Colossi isn't even an option since its not hard to get a few vikings out (since you already have the Starport).
Late game. Carrier, Mothership, Storm, mass warp gate, Protoss finally has an advantage. And then transition starts over again (somewhat, since you want to rebuild your army ASAP).
Rarely my games will go into late game. It will usually end much much sooner. Maybe at my level, late game just means who's macro is more consistent.
@palebluedot: Playing toss is trolling because _______? Maybe I shouldn't feed it but if its base on something I would like to know why you think that. I mean its not like we can make a banshee....
Seems like you just don't know any timings. There's countless Protoss 1 and 2 base allins.
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On February 18 2011 10:09 XXXSmOke wrote:
Another possible Idea.
Start with a 2 fac opening Hellion/tanks/marines to secure your FE. With your FE up for for a traditional 5 fact mech with upgrades using hellion harass like crazy do drops, run bys, whatever it takes to keep him on his toes while your getting your 2-1 upgrades(flash style anyone?)
Heres the differance tho one thing that is largely overlooked is the power of Terran buildings in SC2
-Sensor tower: This building is invaluable late game, being able to tell where the deathball is huge it can allow for you to get the extra few seconds to get yourself in a better position versus the deathball
-Bunker: Salvage is ridiclously good and needs to be used more often. My idea is based on bunkers, instead of using it for the intended use (w rines obviously) Why not use Bunkers in essence as a meat shield for your tanks/ hellions. Some strategic bunkers can clump the enemy's units or waste attacks as they are hitting the bunks and not your units. Imagine walling off with bunkers and the enemy trys to attack. All the zeals would be stuck hitting the bunkers and his stalks and immortals wouldnt be able to get in range to hit the tanks til the bunker wall is down. Im thinking about doing a leap frog bunker with salvage.
For example on Xel Naga that gold base is a perfect forward position to take vs the enemy. Imagine if you had a ton of bunkers all around that center position with a good tank spread. Using sensor towers you could easily react to where he will attack your perimeter.
When its time to attack you can treat the bunker wall just like spider mines in BW. Salvage them, get your money back and reposition your wall on a forward attack front, till you can starve the protoss.
This would be perfect with that +2 armor upgrade as well.
Im going to try this tonight and il get some screenshots of my walls. But for your imagination maybe this will make sense
B=Bunk
S=Supply
T=Tank
A typical perimeter will consist of
T
T Sensor T T
T T
B B B B S B B B B B
If the enemy attacks this front (bunks will be unit tight no units will have to go through the supply depot.) If he right clicks all of his units will go down through the narrow supply depot which is perfect for your hellions to roast and get the splash they need along with the tanks. If he tries to destory your wall then your siege tanks can get a couple extra shots in which with +3 attack is quite nasty. Also keep in mind you will have turrets spread nicely as well to stop observers. This will confuse the enemy because he wont be able to see any weak spots in your encampment(much like BW)
Edit* Tank diagram got screwed, but you know spread them out nicely like in BW, make sure you have a few tanks right on the bunker line tho so the toss cant just use collsi range to snipe your bunks.
Check out nama on DreamHack, he did excatly what u was talking about.
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Hmmm First test was interesting with my building+Hellion+tank build
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_17_04.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_23_00.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_28_19.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/Screenshot2011-02-1719_28_37.jpg)
Heres a couple sample photos, im terrible with image stuff I tried resizing on photobucket but it didnt work. If you want better quality my photobucket page is
http://s911.photobucket.com/albums/ac313/XXXSmoke_2010/
The test was sick, the toss had to break the wall to even start working on my tanks, these extra hits smashed all the gateway units then I was able to use my hellions to work down the immortal shields.
This was vs a computer so now im going to start testing vs the real thing and see what happens.,
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Disregarding that you will have problems running back and forth to guard your 4th/5th, how exactly does that fortress kill P/stop him before carriers?
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On February 18 2011 03:30 mesohawny wrote:
lol omg i love the terran tears, ive been waiting so long for these.
Didn't know my tears fell all the way down to silver.
But seriously, I do not see how the mass bunkers is going to help the matchup (at least with no infantry in them :/). I don't think you'd be building bunkers before you are maxed, and even then sinking your minerals into bunkers (even though you can get some of it back) seems like a bad idea vs. just making a lot more production facilities (of anything) or just turret spamming vulnerable places. That and the mass bunker walls would cause pushing to be even slower than before, so I can see protoss just getting maxed, not attacking into bunkers, and just putting down like 14 stargates and getting ready to unload carriers on you the second their army dies.
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Is this the part where we wait for someone in GSL to show you how to play the game?
I kid, but I honestly think terran is in a weird place right now. I think alot of terran players don't have the right mindset when it comes to how to win a given game. Its like you want an army comp that will defeat the protoss death ball. You won't find it... thats not how terrans built and if this game was each races deathball vs the other races deathball it would be dreadfully boring. I would challenge any terran to simply win their next 10 wins by not launching any big attacks. Win through attrition. You have the tools to win through attrition and/or containment. Good macro terrans are very rare because you have people like iechoic promoting bad builds that are easy to stop and rely on a drop to be effective. Its got half of these forums in the wrong mindset.
Tanks for instance. Tanks in TvP are not useful as your primary combat unit in a straight up fight. They aren't meant to be, but yet people seem to think they should compete with the protoss deathball. Tanks are best for controlling space and there are so many ways that you can use tanks to great effect that doesnt involve seiging them up in the open to become food for zealots. They are for containment. They help you win through attrition. Quite ironically, they aren't the best when it comes to seiging someones base normally. For a terran to beat protoss in the lategame two things need to happen. You need to be able to not get out expanded and you need to be able to not die. That is it. The protoss, even in deathball form, is at a disadvantage when attacking into a foritified position. The challenge for the terran then is controlling space... forcing the only stage for an attack to be where the terran wants it.
I dont think Terrans will win with anything other than patience late game against protoss. Protoss has too many tools lategame to defend with, making all attacks that arent a part of some sick timing really risky. IMO the terran should focus on gaining slight economic advantages throughout the game and wherever possible, but never attack for the sake of attacking or just because you hit 200 food. DONT attack unless you are sure you have a superior army, which will be very few timings.
Its time to break away from shit like hellion drop builds and other things that, when failed, leave you outrageously behind. Drops are great, but don't make one drop the centerpiece of your build unless your plan is to constantly keep their army split. What's happening is you are botching some thing that looks small, that gives them enough of an advantage to win 15 minutes later. Terran needs a new mid-game approach against protoss IMO and that should be to stop suiciding into a deathball. The "invincible collossus/phoenix army is actually quite poor at actually attacking a fortified position... If you can put the squeeze on a protoss at the right time and make him feel like he has to attack into your fortified position because if he doesnt he will lose. To be honest, the guy with the bunker layout is getting warmer than every post Ive read and on face value his post looked the most ridiculous. I guarantee you if you take a defensive positions with forward turrets and seige tanks set in a way where the toss is forced to break the contain to expand again or whatever, you will start winning more lategame with mech in TvP. Unfortunately, its going to take Jinro or Sjow to show you this.
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
yea that's definitely an unbiased and reliable source LOL.
as far as unit compositions go, I think PainUser has taken a step in the right direction with hellion marauder banshee thor. As we hit the mid-late game we too need a strong backbone and not just endless disposable units. If we are to use thors as the backbone we have to consider the scenarios which may occur.
Currently there are 2 main problems that we would run into with a very thor heavy army.
The first would be a large immortal count, which yes....can be cured via an EMP as well as strike cannons but its actually pretty difficult to consistently make either of those work. Strike cannons sometimes start to go off but the thors are dieing as the animation is starting LOL and with EMP radius its tough to get every immortal's shield down + even once the shield is down their dmg is still quite fkn high vs thors.
The second is zealots and as marines becomes worthless in any large engagement in the mid-late we have to resort to hellions, but that still leaves the issue of immortals.
I feel like the answer to both of these is banshees, u can reliably kill immortals with banshees and doing 10dmg/volley instead of 12 is not that big of a loss. Pheonixs are not a particularly great answer as their range to kill banshees is their downfall with thor range.
So i guess to sum up, we need to have a unit composition that is reliable which means not relying on this semi gimmicky 'oh god i hope this works' strike cannon shit. Thor+hellion+banshee is solid, and worst case scenario you force alot of air but u'll have reactored factories to swap with your starports. Things like ravens and ghosts can be incorporated but please never rely on emp to win you an engagement, instead use it as something that might give you that extra edge.
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On February 18 2011 15:12 naventus wrote:
Disregarding that you will have problems running back and forth to guard your 4th/5th, how exactly does that fortress kill P/stop him before carriers?
Sensor towers help so much in stopping raids on 4th and 5th, I also usually put 2 tanks at each expo, that plus hellions stops any gay raids they do.
Carriers are exactly what you want him to go, if anybody commits to heavy air T has the best reaction. Reactored vikings clean up so fast, and you can get them out amazing fast. If you stop his air then he is truly hurt as his ground will be way weaker now that he commited alot of money to air.
Just tested some games vs a Master P and thats exactly what he tried to do was go air, once I reacted correctly with vikings I simply salvage all my bunks up and destory his expos before he can transition out of air. Its just like BW man, the sec P went carriers the T had 9310931 goliaths to snipe them. You can do the same thing with two reactor ports.
The defense is so damn solid its unbelivable. By the time they break through they have lost so many units. I thought immortals would be a huge problem for tanks, however if you micro your helllions you can focus fire the hellions to knock their shields out(immortals are usually clumped) the second those shields are down my tanks just rape.
This combined with pure hellion harass all game is so deadly, even with cannons, if i send 6 hellions into an expo the P will lose a shit ton of probes. I keep wearing the P down until I can get a comfortable position to begin my offensive. And ill tell you what its amazing to have a "movable fortress thanks to salvage.
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Fair Warning: I am currently Silver. If that bothers you please disregard this message.
I had been thinking of ways to boost my macro game against toss. Knowing thors rock but also knowing a thor rush can cripple me if it fails, I had been trying other strats. The recent 2 rax FE was a good start, but too turtle for me...if I just sat there and let it become a deathball race (thor marine vs toss deathball of choice) I would win some, lose some...but I wanted more. Then, along comes this thread. Hmmm...thors are good...I need a late game transition without just massing MMM...so lets mix in thors with upgrades after the FE instead of mass upgrading infantry! Huzzah, it seems to be quite viable.
My general goal is to open with my variation on the 2 rax fe (usally toss in another rax to help bulk up and before I expo I'll feign a bunker rush to put them on the defensive) and then massed up marine/thor while occassionally throwing a pile of marines at the front in the hopes of scouting some, forcing defenders and making the toss think "Oh yeah, more mass marines from a terran" and get collosus or templar, both of which in reasonable numbers thor/marien can handle. Or better yet they mass gateway units...woo hooo!
Anyway, I know my play sucks...not good yet at adding in ghosts, trying to add in vikings/ravens/ whatever counter I feel i'll need. Getting better though, and if I can do it at my level surely a higher leaguer could pull it off in a higher league.
Three replays from tonight if anyone is interested. Two wins and a loss agaisnt toss with this build.
(Replays added)
Game 1: Win
Toss goes gateway heavy and mixes in cols and immortals. Thor marine cleans up nicely.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141272-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
Game 2: Loss
I turtle too hard, don't apply enoguh pressure and get hit with a deathball before I was up to snuff. I lost, but a lot of it was due to my poor unit control I believe. I think the build could have won here.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141274-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war
Game 3: Win
Toss sees the early marine action and masses up templar and gateway units. Temps cause trouble for the marines and repairing scv's, but storms just wont finish a thor.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141276-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
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EPT
