EPTI'm messing around currently with the normal bio play by cutting 2~ rax out of a normal terran's bio midgame and adding a reactored factory for blue flame hellions. I feel the addition of blue flame hellions into a normal bio army is quite strong if only because they are super good at what they do - killing light units (like sniping high temps/roasting probe lines), and they don't require upgrades to be good. At the same time, if a critical mass of colossus get out to the point where a bio army cannot even touch them, then I think the transition lies in starport units, not mech - mech requires upgrades and starport units (banshees) are still really good without upgrades (disregarding BCs, which need upgrades, imo), and they are also extremely mobile.
[D] TvP lategame think tank - Page 3
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Seagull_
75 Posts
I'm messing around currently with the normal bio play by cutting 2~ rax out of a normal terran's bio midgame and adding a reactored factory for blue flame hellions. I feel the addition of blue flame hellions into a normal bio army is quite strong if only because they are super good at what they do - killing light units (like sniping high temps/roasting probe lines), and they don't require upgrades to be good. At the same time, if a critical mass of colossus get out to the point where a bio army cannot even touch them, then I think the transition lies in starport units, not mech - mech requires upgrades and starport units (banshees) are still really good without upgrades (disregarding BCs, which need upgrades, imo), and they are also extremely mobile. | ||
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
We play sc2 with some of the sc1 idea that terran should beat other race with equal supply. May be this is not the case in SC2. I start to think that terran might have to play like inferior race (not in term of game balance but in term of unit strength). May be we can compare terran in sc2 as protoss in sc.bw in a way that we should avoid direct engagement and stay defensive until we got highest tier unit out( such as battle or thor). In the end, there will be another 2 expansions so I think any strategy that we develop today will be almost useless after. Imagine trying to balance the sc1 with out broodwar, it would be funny isn't it, zerg with out lurker or terran with no medic. | ||
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Touch
Canada475 Posts
On February 17 2011 11:46 QQmonster wrote: Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks. How often have you tried going mech in TvP? Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases. | ||
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IamZieK
Canada162 Posts
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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Moja
United States313 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:18 Jayzo wrote: hellions are amazing, thors are amazing, tanks are horrible. i think mech would be perfect if there was some way to get rid of all the stalkers and immortals. i wonder if anyone has ever played with unsieged tanks? mobile mech? lol They're called marauders  | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:13 Touch wrote: Really? Every game I've seen when Terran goes mech is Protoss attacking the Terran army straight on. Not through harassment, drops, but pure amove attacks. This is so true. The mech army is the worlds most immobile force and needs to be practical impossible to kill. You beat it by out macroing with more bases slowly chipping at it and by abusing its mobility. Not 1a into the mech. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Maruaders have to be the worst thing to happen to terran. I play terran and i h8 the maruader. Its flipping boring and makes the game boring. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On February 17 2011 14:37 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks... Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well. | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
Timing is probably the most crucial thing to have in this matchup. You need get your expo up before them and secure a production lead. Then, you need to hit before their first collosus comes out. You have to realize if they're rushing to get out their tech or going more ground heavy before the collosus and adjust your timing accordingly. On top of that, if they're going 6gate, you need to react and turtle yourself. Keep in mind, this timing window is pretty fucking small and depends from player to player. If you hit the right timing and end up exchanging a decent amount of units while setting up your 3rd, you will win if you continue pressure via drops and other small unit exchanges. If you're forced into large battles vs the protoss, you've lost. If you're forced into even bases for a long period of time(past the first 10 minutes), or the protoss gets ahead on bases, you've lost. It's the reason you see a lot of protoss play turtle mode the entire game, then 1a through a terran army when they've been on equal bases for a decent while. Tbh, the matchup is really mundane, I would much rather do TvT all day than a TvP a single time. It relies too much on an extremely early lead to win which usually comes from either a perfect timing attack, gimmicky play, or the protoss fucking up. This won't change until the other races have better late game options or protoss aoe gets reduced. Oh, and mech? Immortals and chargelots with +3 attack say hi. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:49 FabledIntegral wrote: My lategame composition is mainly marine/marauder/medivac/ghost/thor/raven, with a much heavier emphasis on marauders than marine. Ghosts not just to EMP templar, but EMP EVERYTHING, marines are typically for drops as I have two reactored rax I never switch out, Thors are for tanking chargelots and such, and Ravens are for PDD. I almost always utilize nukes as well, there are times they are so useful as an APM sink. What I do is I drop one location with 2 medivacs of marines, nuke an expansion, then move my main army into another expansion. All I generally have to do is stim the marines and spread them slightly while looking for some HT, ignore the ghost after the nuke is launched, then focus on engaging my main army with their third expansion which is where their army typically is. Could you provide any replays to demonstrate your playstyle of 3 pronged attacks? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On February 17 2011 16:00 FinestHour wrote: Could you provide any replays to demonstrate your playstyle of 3 pronged attacks? I don't save my replays. Haven't had any lategame TvP lately, but it seems to work best on Xel Naga or Metal. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:11 pedduck wrote: I think may be the answers is that we cannot do a battle of equal supply in TVP. We play sc2 with some of the sc1 idea that terran should beat other race with equal supply. May be this is not the case in SC2. I start to think that terran might have to play like inferior race (not in term of game balance but in term of unit strength). May be we can compare terran in sc2 as protoss in sc.bw in a way that we should avoid direct engagement and stay defensive until we got highest tier unit out( such as battle or thor). thats nice and all but P had/has way better "highest tier" units, AND pumps out way way faster. ~2900 masters T/Z ,im very interested what will happen in the next few weeks in TvP esp on the new maps which favor P in addition to the current "problem" people have with tvp. tbh right now i dont see a solution. whenever you see armies clash lategame P wins the fight if he has a decent composition and doesnt run into 5 emps. in addition to that he remaxes way faster and is very efficient in smaller skirmishes with zealot/ht. i just dont see a T army that beats a full tech P army. ive tried to mix it up recently alot too. mostly tried to just add 2-3 fac tanks into my bio play with less medivacs and few to none vikings. and while i had some success with it you instalose if youre caught oop once and are in trouble later since at one point chargelots/ht/immortal will just overwhelm you(and it gets realyl ugly when stargates come into play). its a nice alternative vs collosus play tho. air is only a midgame thing. banshees get countered just as hard as bio by HTs. battlecruisers are slow, are terrible with the inevitable upgrade disadvantage and again HTs solve em decently well. thors are nice to have a blockers but they are a nice addition and no solution. they dont "counter" anything (except phoenixes) but have quite some problems with zealots,immortals,voidrays. blue flame hellions are defenitly underused tho. think that we will see alot more use of em esp given what a big problem upgraded chargelots are lategame (for me at least). imho the unit with the biggest potential. in theory they are quite good against a big part of the P army and have all the nice harrass potential of "oh i didnt see that one drop coming. now i lost 20 probes in 2 secs". i just have problems really mixing em into my play buildwise .esp since you still need marines or a unscouted stargate addition will end the game. also with forcefields, how nicely they line up for collosus ,how clunky they feel and the "unreliable" splash i really dont know how to properly use em as a mainpart of my army. overall right now i dont see a solution. P lategame ball will beat you, will remax way harder and can switch his composition around quite fast once the tech for it is there. i havent seen a convincing game so far that makes me think otherwise. aton of the mech or airplays you see win are purely midgame focused or/and harrass focused and while cute they dont really help. /edit btw this is the reaction a friend got after some discussion about late/macro P at the end of a rep he send me( laddergame vs a 3k P i think) ;D + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2746/pvttl.jpg) | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote: Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well. Would you rather drop 3 Thors or 12 Marauders? I'll take the Marauders every single time. There are so many advantages with dropping bio over mech. Namely, bio can maneuver inside a base and can chase running probes. Medivacs are already the natural companion to bio. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
Like If you really wanted to theory craft it I think that the late game needs to have an early contain splitting the map with literal bunkers and rax so that no drops happen and then you can get tanks and just kinda take over the map. Why would that be good? because Terran is very immobile with their late game options if you don't want to do a drop. Like thors and siege tanks are super immobile so if you start by taking a really wide contain and gradually close it in you can take a bunch of expos and then use some harass to keep them in their early game so you could just open 111 and go like fast tank get like 1 medivac and do a drop with like 8 marines and do a really slow like 5-6 minute push This is all from a protoss perspective your going to want to see when you need a reactor on your starport to get vikings or to make a ghost academy based on what protoss kinda wants to do. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
Bassicly you should all know what is polt-timing attack. So what i want to ask is; What would happen if we keep that same unit mix, as it is ussed in polts timing attack, but later in the game? So bassicly you oppen reactored rax/tech lab rax add starport for 1 raven and 2 banshees then do a timing push while expoing. (or you could also do a 2 rax expo and then do same mix of units later) Now once you nat goes up, keep the same unit combo and just increse the numbers ofc., like 5 rax and 2 starports on 2 base, then more on 3 bases and so on... The question here is, do you think, that since you keep the mobility with this kind of units, and since your getting banshees, he can't cut stalkers that much, that then late game unit composition of MMM/bansee/raven would be better vs his composition? This is what i am ussing currently. HTs are still problematic, but at least they are the only thing that gives me worries. sorry for my bad english and good day to all, svizcy | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On February 17 2011 15:29 Sevenofnines wrote: Anyone consider Thor Strike Cannon drops? Double Strike Cannon kills nearly all Protoss buildings and unlike Bio drops the Toss can't just stop it with a couple Templar but would need a decent sized force to deter it. Expo sniping with 3 or 4 Thors would be interesting as well. Templar can still snipe the Medivac  | ||
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booo
Germany23 Posts
 Sometimes i raped a P army so easy, because I wasnt turteling so much, tried to kick expos with 3-4 tanks, some hellions harrasing his main/natural. Tried to get some Marines in this build, to get rid of some zealots, but that doesnt worked so well. If your Positioning is bad, you get crushed without even killing 10 food. Some P used Phoenix and lifted up some of my Tanks, even with Thors that hurts. All in all I dont like playing mech vs P, because(like some P before sad) you give Toss the game without fighting for it. He can exp crazzzy and kill you with XX Warp ins. I have some thought's with a realy wierd build.. I dont have so much time to try it this one, but I like the idea of it.(maybe its just my noob thoughts :D ) Whats about a composition/transition Bio into Banshee/Raven/Vikings into BC(very, very late game). You probably should have some tech labs, that you can switch with the starports. So you can mix in some Marines(that mabe have Stim/CS) Overmins can be used for Marines/Hellions and aggressive Expanding. The BIG PROBLEM like mentioned before are HT with feedback... I dont think adding Ghosts is able, because of that high amount of gas you need...More than 2 Ghosts are needed... This are 2 less banshees. NEVER tried this build. Not even once. I would like to, but I have nearly 0 time to play T_T Maybe the transition Timing would be, before he get's some Collosi, so they are useless for a while or even the whole game. Composition is Mobile, Ravens with Energy upgrade can use PDD more often. Vikings can snipe Ob's and Banshees can clean the Army, they have so sick DPS(everyone knows that;) ). Even slipping 1-2 Banshees or Hellions from time to time in the minerals would be no Problem. You maybe can get some of your Marines vs Voids. But still, there is the biggest HT Problem... And I have no clue how to deal with them. Just a thought, dont kill me for that | ||
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