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On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation.
How often have you tried going mech in TvP?
Tanks do sick good damage once you get critical mass and upgrades, sure they aren't very mobile but they make up for it by the fact that protoss can't actually take your army on straight up. You're right, in most situations tanks are bad at harrassing (except on shakuras, lost temple, delta quadrant cliffs etc.) but hellions can clear an entire mineral line. Vikings are also good at flying around and harrassing bases.
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Going Mech requires you to do some seriously good Helion harass and great Dropship harass with Helions.
In fact, to play Mech in BW you had to Vulture harass and keep Protoss economy in check; it's not something that was really easy to do at all.
Warp-in is strong against Mech, but I think people aren't using Helions and Helion drops very well when they mech, instead they think that they should turtle to 200/200 and try and roll the P army when that obviously never worked in the first place even in BW.
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Very often when I've seen a Terran go late game 200/200 tanks against a protoss, the mech ball will usually win one fight but as the OP puts it...15+ warpgate zealot wave straight after usually cleans up your now "less than critical mass" tank line. Unless of course, you somehow managed to lose no tanks in the big engagement...
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Do Thors target Collosi as Air Or Ground? Cause air has longer range right...
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On February 17 2011 12:01 Aruni wrote:
Do Thors target Collosi as Air Or Ground? Cause air has longer range right...
ground. so they dont outrange colossi.
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2750 terran masters.
I open with marine/banshee/raven and will add viking/BCs in the lategame. I'll continually add more starports (e.g. 1-1-5). My army composition will depend on what the protoss builds:
- HTs: I go BCs, and they perform reasonably well against HT/stalker in conjunction with ravens.
- Stalker/colossus: Heavy banshees.
- Phoenix: Make enough vikings to counter them.
I play similarly to Synystyr (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190) with the difference being that I'm more defensive.
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Bio is becoming weak due to the tosses learning how to fend off early bio pressure till they get the dreaded Collossi or High Templar Tech. Vikings usually did the job against Collossi but now Phoenixes or Void Rays are being added to the mix.
It's no wonder Terrans are having to start thinking about late game options. With the introduction of bigger maps, I personally feel Terrans are going to have a hard time late game and well, let's face it, Terran's strength really does lie in the early game especially with Bio-based play. Even reading the map analysis of Terminus RE on GOM website pretty much admits that Terran's are gonna have to come up with something to stop the Zerg and Protoss to macro up and/or meet them head on in a macro game.+ Show Spoiler +
MVP vs Squirtle could be taken as one of the current references as to the kind of shift the TvP match up is heading where we saw a lot of Mech and very little Bio. Protoss promptly responds with Immortals, Zealots, Void Rays, High Templars and even a Mothership. Squirtle unlike MC vs Jinro did not opt to go for Carriers that game to beat the Mech play, probably because of the Viking threat but Carriers are also an option against Mech for Toss I think.
I feel that Ghost play will become more important in the future and not just for EMPs but also for some double pronged or triple pronged nuking. ( TLO vs Hyperdub style ) Still this is pretty much shut down by the multiple Cannons at every Protoss expo. And while Tanks get owned by Immortals, Chargelots, Void Rays and even storms, Siege mode is very very annoying against a Protoss who doesn't know how to deal with the tanks, so totally forfeiting them in the unit composition might not be the way.
Problem is, whilethe Protoss have found ways to use the Mothership, Carriers etc, the Terran units called the Battlecruiser, the long forgotten Reapers haven't found their Niche in the Terran army yet. Oh and are there any uses for the Raven aside from the PDD in TvP yet? Hunter Seeker Missile and turrets of any use?
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On February 17 2011 10:40 iEchoic wrote:
I think tanks are actually terrible in TvP. Here's how the tank timeline goes:
1) Everyone accepts tanks suck since the recent nerf to light damage (this change was largely done for TvZ, in order to buff hydras and allow lings to take two shots with +1 armor, but a side-effect was that they became quite bad in TvP).
2) Jinro goes tanks vs MC. MC plays the worst he's had in a long time and makes loads of mistakes (and Jinro played well also, but not because of tanks), giving Jinro the game. People attribute the win to the power of siege tanks, seemingly unable to analyze the actual reasons the game went the way it did.
3) Siege tanks are now amazing
Thors and hellions have potential usage, but I can't see siege tanks going too far in lategame TvP. There are some strong early-game usages (like the way TSL_Rain did it against MC in GSL3) but I see no reason to use them late-game. Their damage is bad, their mobility is bad, they give you zero ability to harass, they open you up into another upgrade line (so you need to upgrade vehicle and bio). As is, bio is better in almost every situation.
Idk the Hellion/Tank/viking maybe 1-2 ghosts is pretty powerful IMHO if macro'd well can stop anything and tosses have been playing against bio so much that they havent dealth with mech play which means they are trying to figure out what to do
and lets not forget IMMVP vs squirtle where he made a smooth transition into siege tanks and although he lost he showed that it was possible to have that
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An acceptable mass of mech unit takes several minutes to get. Getting there requires you allocating at least 600 gas for facs/ups, and a lot more for the units themselves. Combine that with the build times, pumping marauders/medivacs/whatever-else-you-need....you probably need to spend at least 10 minutes before you can start using mech. And there still is no guarantee that your army will come out on top.
There is no safe way to go straight to mech, where the cost/payoff ratio of getting mech is more acceptable. But even then, toss still has so many options if a terran does successfully open mech..
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this is an awesome thread, ill be watching it closely as my win rate tvp is so very very low and i also find colossi + storm to be the end of the game.
im wondering why the battle cruiser is never mentioned, is it because of the void ray buff or templar or both?
would it be possible to match colossi numbers with battle cruisers and force an engage before storm came out? it might force your opponent to go stalker heavy which would increase the effectiveness of marauders. if anyones tried anything like this i would be very interested.
It seems like if they are bringing 2 types of tier 3 to the table, we should at least explore all of ours.
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I am around 2600 master league terran. I have had a hard time TvP lategame for a long time. If protoss gets both storm and collosis or even storm and immortals i lose most of the time.
An army composition I would like to try is:
marauder, battlecruisers, medivac
The idea would be to put a solid dent in the protoss army with 8+ battle cruisers in front of marauders and medivacs. Protoss is forced then to build many stalkers as they replenish their army. You can use yamoto cannons to 1 shot any voidrays or to try to take out collosis.
Once both armies are small and rebuilding, reinforce your army with marauders and medivacs (maby some ghosts). This way you hopefully do some damage to his economy with drops before his deathball gets too big again.
You can switch between a battle cruiser heavy and MM heavy perhaps reinforcing your army with Battle cruisers again once his collosis count gets high.
:O Jayzo i see u were thinking the same thing. I hope it works how i think it will. Should be better than just keeping with marauder mevivac viking ghost. I never thought of getting them before storm. Ill try to test it out and post how it goes.
Anyone think this has much potential>?
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Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
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On February 17 2011 13:41 chenchen wrote:
Battlecruisers get fedback like crazy. Since yamato is so expensive, battlecruisers always have a large amount of energy because it can't spend it in short bursts.
Mass thors
Thors in large enough numbers off of three or four bases wreck everything protoss has that's supposed to counter thors. Just ask Artosis.
Thors in large enough numbers with strike cannons wreck colossi, immortals, void rays, blink stalkers . . .
chargelots?
also i was mentioning battlecruisers before storm, after i guess they can be fed back, but if the templar energy isnt being used for that, its storming your bio so im not sure its that bad. maybe u could enter a fight with yamato cannons, making the feedback not as bad.
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Battlecruisers are great vs Protoss, but like all the other mech/gas heavy options mentioned already, the problem is surviving until that point, because any Protoss user that sees a teching Terran will immediately respond by mass expoing or attack. Protoss will always have great info on Terran as well.
Basically we need a safe build that allows transitions to and 3rd base gas and then mass thor or BC support or whatever. The key is to somehow get a 3rd base and then being able to afford all the late game gas/mineral intensive stuff.
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Chargelots melt to thors even if they get a perfect surround. Remember to get 3 armour as fast as you can.
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3.5k Terran. Personally, I prefer an aggressive style, which doesn't compliment mech or heavy transitions. So in order to maintain a strong economy, I only expand with Orbitals, upgrade fast, and never cease dropping/expansion sniping/attacking. For me, I think the game is lost against Protoss once they become established with a solid army with equal bases. Late game TvP is really about abusing the immobility of HTs and Colossus, and keeping armies small to reduce their effectiveness.
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On February 17 2011 14:17 chenchen wrote:
Chargelots melt to thors even if they get a perfect surround. Remember to get 3 armour as fast as you can.
I think the reasoning is that Thor's dps is pretty sick even if its targeting zealots. I had a game recently in which the Terran went primarily mech with marines to support, and the dps of about 4 Thors could bring down my zealots pretty fast. Not saying that I lost only because the Thors are fantastic against Protoss, I think that they could use some examination for lategame.
Of course, they do have some downsides (like fighting Immortals) but they could have a shot.
Of the air tech, I think only Banshees and Ravens will really warrant being used endgame - Battlecruisers are really vulnerable to feedback AND blink Stalkers, while Banshees and Ravens can keep their energy lower while providing their own benefits to the army.
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I'm still convinced that there's no cost- and time-effective mech equivalent to straight marauders+medivacs and vikings. More than anything it's the fact that tanks and thors take FOREVER to build.
Additionally, people are forgetting that it's damn near impossible to replicate the late game bio drops in the Protoss main base. It's the only reasonable method for slowing down the obscene production of a late game Protoss. Dropping 2 medivacs full of Marauders is infinitely better than dropping 2 medivacs with tanks...
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I found what works semi-decently is that on two base, I like to go Bio + reactor Viking + Banshee and getting a third to add on thors seems like a good idea.
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Banshee Thor is definitely the way I think it's meant to go. It's just hard to do that. Synystr's build 2 rax FE into 4 SP I think allows for heavy banshee and thor, the only problem is you're open to 4 gates and timing pushes. I think if you open gas rax rax instead of 2 rax no gas and simply pull workers off gas it makes the protoss think "normal, back to my X" as it's impossible to hold XNC with such a wide natural on short bio.
Mech is definitely viable. A build I've seen and need to work on is 1/1 FE into 3/3 and then closer to like 5-6 fact and 1-2 SP on 3 base. Marine hellion tank into hellion tank thor viking, with some marines but they aren't as vital mostly for killing VR possibly ghosts if you see mass immortals.
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EPT
