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Holding off a 4gate is perfectly doable without 4gating yourself, but it really does constrict your options for opening. You MUST pick an opening that will have a strong defense at the 6 minute mark. There's plenty of other ways to do that besides 4gating - 2gas 3(-4)gate "(almost) all ranged unit" is my personal default - I'll generally be chronoboosting the SHIT out of the gates when I'm under the gun, but it works, and I won't be cutting probes. I like it because I can ramp FF but stand back out of range of the shit at the bottom of the ramp trying to shoot up at me.
It's not perfect, but when I lose to 4gates and look at my replays I feel like it's more because I was sloppy with my opening (my warpgate research is late, Not using chronoboosts to stay alive, supply blocking myself, etc.
The problem with cannon builds is that they don't let you do anything AFTER you live through their 4gate - if I were 4gating and I saw them build cannons in response, I'd pressure them into as many cannons as I could without losing many units, then back off and expo. Maybe on maps that you have a backdoor expo which ISN'T WARP-IN HEAVEN LIKE JUNGLE BASIN then the early cannons would work better?
Maybe if you put together an early +1 build so you could turn that early forge into something besides just cannons?
Pro support: I swiped this off of watching White-Ra vs Naniwa. I didn't just pull some build out of nowhere.
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On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote:
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
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On February 09 2011 23:17 pandaburn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote:
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it? Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
+1
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On February 09 2011 15:46 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about. Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker. Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro.
lol man did that actually happen??? rep mee later 2day <3
we can do some more work later. im gonna get those phoenixes to work on steppes mmmkay
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I've been practicing a build for the past week of opening blink stalker vs 4gate in mid masters.
This seems to me to be effective whether they 4gate or not.
I open:
9 Pylon
12 Gate
Gas
Core
Gas
Chrono 1 Stalker
Twilight Council
Chrono 2 Stalker
Chrono 3 Stalker
Gateway
Gateway
Chrono Blink
He's going to think you're 4gating because you're only going to use 2 chrono on your probes but in reality you're saving the rest for stalkers/blink research. He'll probably react with 4gate (whether he was going to do it in the first place or not).
1st stalker comes out - Get the scouting probe so you can drop your TC. Immediately after the scouting probe is dead/out, continue searching everywhere for possible proxy pylons, or other probes.
Use the 2nd and 3rd stalker to help with the search and HOLD watch towers to look for any other incoming proxy probes. (NOTE: It is SO important to find that scouting probe that it can be game breaking).
Another note: After you have prevented the proxy pylon from being positioned, you have already stalled him quite a bit. His next step (or sometimes 1st step) is sending 1stalker, 1zealot, 1probe. Do your best to get the probe and fend off the zealot/stalker (this can be difficult as your 3rd stalker might not be quite ready, if you can get the probe before it drops a pylon that's amazing).
From my experience, you can't always stop the zealot/stalker and probe but with good micro/macro you can get out enough stalkers with blink to stop the 4gate at this point.
Couple of micro tricks: Kill his stalkers first so you can kite his zealots. Blink only 1 (or minimal) stalkers at a time.
Almost never stop probe production (I only think it's really necessary to cut for blink research and to get out your 2nd and 3rd gate fast enough for when wg finishes)
If you continue probe production throughout all of this, you can support 4 gates producing only blink stalkers and you can make a pretty devastating counter.
If you're interested in how I counter/transition to midgame and lategame with this build, I can explain in further detail.
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On February 09 2011 23:22 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 23:17 pandaburn wrote:On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote:
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it? Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it. +1
I'll put up his 2 gate robo defense, even though I'm quite embarrassed at my play. I was about to go to bed when he said he would play me, and I didn't wanna seem like a puss, so I played him. The micro wasn't terribly bad, but my timing was a bit off on everything. Either way though, not to give excuses, but I think a lot of it was simply his composure and superior skill level. Gahhh.... here it is...
PvP 2 Gate Robo Holding 4 Gate
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On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote:
I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Actually, if you're having trouble filtering out what is baseless and what is legitimate without looking at replays, then you're probably not at a level at which you should be contributing to the discussion. I'm not trying to be insulting.
See what I did there?
As for counters to the 4wg, economic 4gate with micro wars deciding the victor is probably the safest bet. if you can survive the initial two rounds of unit warp ins on equal footing, you're usually in a good position as this is when you should have enough gas to safely put down a sentry or two to start splitting shit up.
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On February 10 2011 00:27 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 23:22 tar wrote:On February 09 2011 23:17 pandaburn wrote:
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it. +1 I'll put up his 2 gate robo defense, even though I'm quite embarrassed at my play. I was about to go to bed when he said he would play me, and I didn't wanna seem like a puss, so I played him. The micro wasn't terribly bad, but my timing was a bit off on everything. Either way though, not to give excuses, but I think a lot of it was simply his composure and superior skill level. Gahhh.... here it is... PvP 2 Gate Robo Holding 4 Gate
Thanks much. I'm sure you're better than me so I'll refrain from judging you. 
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On February 09 2011 23:50 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:46 PJA wrote:On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about. Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker. Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro. lol man did that actually happen??? rep mee later 2day <3 we can do some more work later. im gonna get those phoenixes to work on steppes mmmkay
Yeah, it's actually insolence vs hasuobs, my bad. But hey, it's from September, so I think my memory is pretty legit.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/bnet/988
Was a pretty sick game, imo. 13 kill immortal with 1 health? Hell yeah.
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Hey man, I've had some success versus 4gate doing some weird things.
One of those things is 15Nexus, pumping out a zealot and some stalkers while getting 3 stargates. After that chrono phoenixes. You should lose the majority of the health on your nexus, but if you can pull of some perfect micro it can directly counter four gate.
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On February 10 2011 05:14 eXwOn wrote:
Hey man, I've had some success versus 4gate doing some weird things.
One of those things is 15Nexus, pumping out a zealot and some stalkers while getting 3 stargates. After that chrono phoenixes. You should lose the majority of the health on your nexus, but if you can pull of some perfect micro it can directly counter four gate.
Now this is something that I really don't think the timings could ever possibly work on, if the opponent does a 4gate even remotely smoothly. Just think about it. He needs Gateway -> core -> boost the shit out of warpgate research. About You need Nexus -> Gateway -> core -> stargate?
I fail to see how you have even HALF his units at the 6:30 mark, let alone the gas to build 3 stargates.
Even from a totally rudimentary strategy perspective, it makes no sense. Player A goes straight for a fast army. Player B goes for an expansion AND is teching quickly.
Day[9]'s strategy here for player A is
* Does the day[9] shrug*
"Just go fucking kill him"
Ok, maybe if you do your build smoothly and your opponent totally botches his, supply blocking all over the place, not having his pylon ready outside your base when his warpgate research finishes etc. Relying on your opponent making game-losing macro mistakes = no thanks, you can gladly keep your 15nexus-into-3 stargate "counters 4 gate" build to yourself. You didn't win that game, your opponent lost it.
On February 10 2011 00:07 Abele wrote:
I've been practicing a build for the past week of opening blink stalker vs 4gate in mid masters.
This seems to me to be effective whether they 4gate or not.
I open:
9 Pylon
12 Gate
Gas
Core
Gas
Chrono 1 Stalker
Twilight Council
Chrono 2 Stalker
Chrono 3 Stalker
Gateway
Gateway
Chrono Blink
He's going to think you're 4gating because you're only going to use 2 chrono on your probes but in reality you're saving the rest for stalkers/blink research. He'll probably react with 4gate (whether he was going to do it in the first place or not).
1st stalker comes out - Get the scouting probe so you can drop your TC. Immediately after the scouting probe is dead/out, continue searching everywhere for possible proxy pylons, or other probes.
Use the 2nd and 3rd stalker to help with the search and HOLD watch towers to look for any other incoming proxy probes. (NOTE: It is SO important to find that scouting probe that it can be game breaking).
Another note: After you have prevented the proxy pylon from being positioned, you have already stalled him quite a bit. His next step (or sometimes 1st step) is sending 1stalker, 1zealot, 1probe. Do your best to get the probe and fend off the zealot/stalker (this can be difficult as your 3rd stalker might not be quite ready, if you can get the probe before it drops a pylon that's amazing).
From my experience, you can't always stop the zealot/stalker and probe but with good micro/macro you can get out enough stalkers with blink to stop the 4gate at this point.
Couple of micro tricks: Kill his stalkers first so you can kite his zealots. Blink only 1 (or minimal) stalkers at a time.
Almost never stop probe production (I only think it's really necessary to cut for blink research and to get out your 2nd and 3rd gate fast enough for when wg finishes)
If you continue probe production throughout all of this, you can support 4 gates producing only blink stalkers and you can make a pretty devastating counter.
If you're interested in how I counter/transition to midgame and lategame with this build, I can explain in further detail.
I like it. I like it a lot - the timings seem to work well. You take early map presence by getting more stalkers out pre-warpgate your opponent can't easily set up a proxy pylon ahead of time, and use that to stall for your blink research/slightly later warpgate research. Would love to see some replays where you defend 4-gates with this blink stalker build. Another neat thing is you force him to follow his 4gate with either a robo or cannons just from the imaginary (or real) threat of DTs.
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EPT
