Is the only counter to a four gate in PvP a four gate?
In most of my games, I like to go for an early expand style. Something like a three gate or a two gate robo into three gates with no stalkers. Almost always (probably 80% of my PvP matches) my opponent four gates, and I feel like my only response is to four gate and win with micro. If I have to pull probes at all, it's basically GG. The economy hit in combination with the proxy pylon means that there is no breathing room, and generally if the fight happens in my main then, even if I beat him back, he is on two bases to my one.
Obviously positioning matters just a bit. Close/far positions on certain maps (LT, Delta) mean an extra round of warp ins. It seems like if I can get one extra round of sentries, I usually hold off the initial push and wind up winning.
1. When scouting a four gate opening, is the best response a four gate? 2. Should I stop chronoboosting my probes before 18 so that I can constantly chronoboost warp tech at the core? 3. What should my composition look like? My assumption is stalker/sentry but that doesn't seem to be working. 4. Is there ever a reason to two gate robo in PvP outside of warp prism harass? What about two gate stargate? 5. Should I not do a partial wall in against Protoss? I seems like my pylons get sniped pretty quickly in PvP. 6. Are there any early expand builds that easily combat a four gate build?
I'm going to browse sc2rep looking at PvP games, but any insight would be appreciated. I'll save my next few PvP replays and post them when I can.
Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
On February 05 2011 14:16 Parra wrote: I believe a 3 gate starport can easily defend a 4gate as well
Eeh, not really. I used to love doing 3 gate pheonix and just holding my ramp and harassing, but once you play good people they can get an expo up very quickly while you really cant if they camp you ramp.
3 gate double gas robo can work, just going sentry, stalker and immortal. Then following a 3 collosis with range push... But surviving the initial 4 gate is very difficult, usually I feel like it was my opponent at fault. Ofcourse a 4 gate to counter works too, but you really dont have many options. Also a DT rush with 2 early sentry can work, but thats a toss up
Please check old threads. I've already seen like 10+ of these and said the same things in each.
2 Gate or 4 gate yourself. Check Liquipedia to learn how to counter it. Any early aggression to delay his Warpgate tech or just destroy him will work (aka 2 Gate into whatever you want).
On February 05 2011 14:09 kcdc wrote: Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
Mind posting that build? Would love to try it out.
Please check old threads. I've already seen like 10+ of these and said the same things in each.
I did search. There were a few builds in the wiki, but none answering this specific question (at least not in the first four pages. Most were countering four gate as Zerg.
After watching some replays, it looks like my only two options are 3 gate 2 gas or 4 gate 2 gas, with varying levels of success. 2 gate robo never seems to work, and 3 gate robo is too late to matter. I think the real problem is that there's no chronoboost on probes after the first - everything is spent on gateways and the core. I tend to chronoboost the first 2 times on probes and then after warpgate tech on probes again. I'll change that up and see how it works.
For anyone else out there, it seems like your typical four gate build stops probe production at 18-20 probes. That seems to make sense, but 22 probes offers full gas saturation as well as basic mineral saturation. I think that might be the key to countering this build.
Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
*edit*
1. When scouting a four gate opening, is the best response a four gate? there are many ways to hold off, most preferred is a four gate response because it is saying "if we do the exact same build and produce the exact same units, then it comes down to whoever is better at micro / macro" and hopefully you are.
2. Should I stop chronoboosting my probes before 18 so that I can constantly chronoboost warp tech at the core? your first chrono boost should be after your first pylon comes in, second chrono boost after you put down your first gateway, you can put 1 more chrono boost on your nexus and still keep the cyber under complete chrono boost, or you can spend that third on a production facility.
3. What should my composition look like? My assumption is stalker/sentry but that doesn't seem to be working. your goal is to work towards 5 stalkers, and have 4 zealots for cannon fodder. 1 sentry is good for cutting the army in half on ramps / containing / preventing retreat up their ramp. When your zealots die, get out of their before you stalkers take damage. when your opponent matches your stalker number, then step it up to 7-8 stalkers, and put the rest in zealots. (7-8 = magic number early game, too many = tripping over each other)
4. Is there ever a reason to two gate robo in PvP outside of warp prism harass? What about two gate stargate? Two of my favorite builds are 2gRobo and 2gSgate in pvp. 2grobo = gate - robo - gate and you chrono boost out an immortal asap. your timing push should be 1-2 zealots , 2 stalkers , 2 sentries, 1 immortal, and the ability to warp in 2 more units when you reach your opponents base. with 2gsgate you go 6z2s (maybe 3 stalkers depending on your opponent) and chrono boost the pheonix asap. concept = lift your opponents stalkers, and out number their zealots with your zealots.
5. Should I not do a partial wall in against Protoss? I seems like my pylons get sniped pretty quickly in PvP. I place my buildings against the cliff, but not near my ramp: reasoning = if i get cannon rushed, the buildings will prevent my opponent from building cannons there / absorb damage long enough for me to get a stalker out and kill the probe. Also it provides more vision on the minimap and allows me to spot a drop coming sooner. Only building you need on the ramp is a pylon to warp in units.
6. Are there any early expand builds that easily combat a four gate build? Yes, but not quite easily. most of them depend on the damage you do in a specific rush, others are defensive that assure you a secure expansion at ___ point of time in game. Most of the time you need to add in a forge and fall back on 3ish warpgates. example: 2grobo you add in a forge (same as a 3g robo, but instead the 150 minerals go into a forge) and you put 1-2 cannons down at your natural.
You can boost your nexus twice and still have all the chrono you want for warpgate tech.
To me, it's pretty simple. Either go econ friendly 4 gate, or do some early 2 gate pressure into either expand or tech. The 2 gate can go several ways depending when exactly u put ure 2nd gate down, and how much pressure you apply with it. Checkout the adelscott build. That is nice in close positions if you can pull off the timing right. It's a fairly small window.
Don't try and tech until you defend the 4 gate. If the guy knows how to 4 gate correctly, you WILL die. And, you were saying you would like to have 22 probes. Go for it. But, put up 4 gates, and chrono boost it aways and get a couple sentries.
Not to mention, I thought this was a given, but apparently not. If you're going for a more econ friendly 4 gate, u can chrono your gateway once, and get an edge on the number of units before warpgate is up. take map control and deny the proxy.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
When a protoss 4gates it's best just to get your forcefield on the ramp right to cut his units in half. Never move your forces down the ramp to counter attack until you have a significantly larger force.
And don't do the obviously wrong things - i.e take an expansion. 4gate, 2 gate robo, 3gate robo, 3 gate starport all work with a bit of micro.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
On February 05 2011 14:37 mufin wrote: dts, if you can force field your ramp long enough till they pop.
DTs can only get out after 6.5 minutes... they would have to be terrible for that to work.
i agree, but 2 dts (one in his base, one in yours), can immediately win you the game if you can survive his 4 gate long enough. i've also seen players delay a 4 warp gate with early zealot pressure, cannon pressure or anything else that doesn't take gas. but in the end, i feel it isn't a very stable approach to the matchup.
the harder, more consistent way to counter 4 gate (in my opinion) is 3 gate blink stalker. Well micro'd blink stalkers > all gateway units. especially since it makes forcefields obsolete. check out this PvP between TLO and White-Ra if you need a better picture.
I couldn't find the reddit guy that casted the game so you'll have to deal with HD :p.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
The problem is he can just sit below your ramp and tech/expand freely.
On many maps the adel scott build (2-gate out 4 zealots + 2 follow up stalkers that arrive before WG finishes then transition into an early expo, early tech, or a 4-gate works very well in my experience (high diamond but I've beaten plenty of low masters players with it).
The build I have been using is Adelscott's No-Gas PvP. The idea is to hit with 4 Zealots and 2 Stalkers before Warpgate hits, and then kill probes/pylons to delay the Warpgate push. During this delay, you throw down an expansion, 2 more gateways (for a total of 4), a forge, and 1-2 cannons, then defend the 4-Gate and come out of it 2 bases to one. It seems very effective, and I am not sure why more people don't do it. (Of course, against a non-4-gate build, it isn't all that good, but there's precious few of those that I've seen in PvP)
On February 05 2011 17:11 tarath wrote: On many maps the adel scott build (2-gate out 4 zealots + 2 follow up stalkers that arrive before WG finishes then transition into an early expo, early tech, or a 4-gate works very well in my experience (high diamond but I've beaten plenty of low masters players with it).
i'm curious about that too because i've read alot of players swear by the adel scott build but i haven't seen it at all in recent tournament play.
3 Gate Robo actually works(People who claim it doesn't obviously never tried it before/didn't control well enough). You just need to remember to FF the ramp long enough until you get your immortals out. DO NOT EVER CUT PROBES.
On February 05 2011 17:11 tarath wrote: On many maps the adel scott build (2-gate out 4 zealots + 2 follow up stalkers that arrive before WG finishes then transition into an early expo, early tech, or a 4-gate works very well in my experience (high diamond but I've beaten plenty of low masters players with it).
i'm curious about that too because i've read alot of players swear by the adel scott build but i haven't seen it at all in recent tournament play.
Yeah I've often wondered why we don't see it more in tournaments, maybe at the highest levels of play it stops working for some reason? idk.
I'm not that good obviously but at my level its very effective and PvP is by far my best matchup. If anything I think a pro could really execute well and make it far more effective as I often have trouble microing my attack force while also deciding on (good decision making about your transition is key) and executing an appropriate transition at home.
On February 05 2011 17:17 PikaXchU wrote: 3 Gate Robo actually works(People who claim it doesn't obviously never tried it before/didn't control well enough). You just need to remember to FF the ramp long enough until you get your immortals out. DO NOT EVER CUT PROBES.
i've heard both sides and right now i'm noticing a shift away from robo play towards 4 gate in tournament games. have any recent pro replays supporting your argument that i could check out?
Look at the Homestory cup. The last four players are all protoss. Whitera, socke, naniwa and mana lpay something like 25 pvp in a row. Most are not 4gates.
Whitera played five or six pvp matches in the most recent TLopen.
3 gates with only two sentries. split their army in half and kite their zealots. The trick is to forcefield them in half, not to forcefield them out your base. Don't be greedy at the start :no 14 gate or so, always 12 gate, only two chronoboosts on probes, cut probes to get 2 additional gates up at 24 supply, dont get too fast a second geyser.
On February 05 2011 17:17 PikaXchU wrote: 3 Gate Robo actually works(People who claim it doesn't obviously never tried it before/didn't control well enough). You just need to remember to FF the ramp long enough until you get your immortals out. DO NOT EVER CUT PROBES.
i've heard both sides and right now i'm noticing a shift away from robo play towards 4 gate in tournament games. have any recent pro replays supporting your argument that i could check out?
4 gating was popular like 2-3 weeks ago. Now people have figured how to deal with it. Blink play and air play are also really strong, robo play is not seen as often as in GSL1 for example.
use your first 3 chronos on probe production, spending one to finish last zealot then using the rest on the two stalkers, once they are out start using it on warpgate which you shoulda have started once you are in his base attacking. you arent rushing for wg tech because you are electing to attack early and gain information. assimilator at 19/20, 3 zealots out by the time your core finishes, two stalkers immediately follow up with wg, push up the ramp with zealots 10 seconds before stalkers get there. if hes 4gating he probably has 1 zealot or 1 stalker almost done, use your zealots by making them go straight for the probe line, if not making his entire line attack your three zealots. use backup stalkers to do known damage ie focus low probes, take out pylons. if there is only 1 pylon powering the core and wg is not done yet, use all units to focus this down; in this case its gg for having halted his production if you do a lot of damage to mineral lines, you should have boosted out two more stalkers while it was happening and built an expo/forge/gateway, building 1-2 cannons at expo. after expo is up i usually like to throw down a starport and a robo bay plus my two new gas, and build based on what i see. if i see a lot of immortal zealot ill make 2-3 pheonix for grave beam on immortals, if i see robo bay i go straight to voids with their plus damage. remember stopping a 4 gate usually means you are pretty far ahead
wow, that TLO blink stalker build looks cool, although i'll probably switch between that and 3gate, as that's my most comfortable build (still being a gold league scrub ). Holy shit though, that video reminded me why i hate HD so much (and husky not to mention). They really must appeal to 12 year olds or something, cuz i honestly muted it half way through and enjoyed the game more. Oh well, back to being an elitist fuck with nothing to back it up...
On February 05 2011 19:34 Tsabo wrote: you can beat 4 gate with perfect/close to perfect FFs thats all there is to it.
If you cant do good enough FFs you have to 4 gate yourself.
If your FFs are *PERFECT* it doesnt matter what you do because you will stop the 4 gate and be ahead.
Nah, you wont stop with perfect FF couz if there is a pylon at the beginning of your choke he can warp in units above your ff. There was also a thread about it. You need 2 ff to stop this.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
The problem is he can just sit below your ramp and tech/expand freely.
Once warpgate tech comes in, he will be the one in the dark. Containing a cannoned ramp in general is not a good idea, for all you know he may never need to push out.
On February 05 2011 17:11 tarath wrote: On many maps the adel scott build (2-gate out 4 zealots + 2 follow up stalkers that arrive before WG finishes then transition into an early expo, early tech, or a 4-gate works very well in my experience (high diamond but I've beaten plenty of low masters players with it).
i'm curious about that too because i've read alot of players swear by the adel scott build but i haven't seen it at all in recent tournament play.
The 5z8s build is becoming more popular at higher level play, it counters the 4 warpgate very well and is slightly better then the adelscott. Adel - counters 4 warpgate and relies on attacking with 4z2s. 5z8s - you have 3z2s out when adel-build opponent attacks, and 2 more units on the way. you will hold off, and the counter attack is very hard to stop with adel.
well 4gate can me scouted at about the 5-6 minute mark. and a good counter to it is your own 4gate or forge cannons, because cannons really destroys everything there. so 3-4 canons by your front door plus your own gateway units should fix the problem
I think people need to take the DT build seriously, it is a hard counter to 4gate if you do it just right.
3chrono on probes 1 gate twilight council, build a sentry(try to hide council so it looks like you are 4gating) 2nd gas, Warp tech(1-2 chrono on warp tech to keep up with 4gate)2 more gates+DT shrine another sentry+zealots from this point only build zealots, you should also build 1-2 proxy pylons around the map so you can make dts near his base while you FF your ramp. 4gate will show up at ~6:15-6:30 so you have to hold for ~1 minute continue producing zealots constantly, a 3rd sentry will probably be needed split his forces in half on your ramp with FF and let zealots fight, you should have more zealots than a regular 4gater, and in the close combat stuck on a ramp you will win the fight at your base easily. Just in time to warp in 2 dt's and run them into your ememies mineral line, and at that points its gg, dts can kill robo faster than it can be built, and once he runs probes you will out produce him. If you mess up the FF's you can warp one of the dts at home and one at his base and you should still be fine.
On February 06 2011 03:10 TheGiftedApe wrote: I think people need to take the DT build seriously, it is a hard counter to 4gate if you do it just right.
3chrono on probes 1 gate twilight council, build a sentry(try to hide council so it looks like you are 4gating) 2nd gas, Warp tech(1-2 chrono on warp tech to keep up with 4gate)2 more gates+DT shrine another sentry+zealots from this point only build zealots, you should also build 1-2 proxy pylons around the map so you can make dts near his base while you FF your ramp. 4gate will show up at ~6:15-6:30 so you have to hold for ~1 minute continue producing zealots constantly, a 3rd sentry will probably be needed split his forces in half on your ramp with FF and let zealots fight, you should have more zealots than a regular 4gater, and in the close combat stuck on a ramp you will win the fight at your base easily. Just in time to warp in 2 dt's and run them into your ememies mineral line, and at that points its gg, dts can kill robo faster than it can be built, and once he runs probes you will out produce him.
Wait, what? If you build a sentry before stalker is out to kill probe it's basically telling the opponent "hey I'm not 4 gating."
At that point it is as easy to go robo and you'll most certainly win because robo hardcounters DT.
Also you're forgetting about warp in on top of your ramp. its ez pz lemon squeezy to just warp in 4 zealots when you gain vision and have the stalkers on the bottom go to town.
DT will not work against a 4 gate executed properly. Not only that but how do you afford all that gas heavy stuff if you're building 2 or 3 sentries?
On February 06 2011 03:10 TheGiftedApe wrote: I think people need to take the DT build seriously, it is a hard counter to 4gate if you do it just right.
3chrono on probes 1 gate twilight council, build a sentry(try to hide council so it looks like you are 4gating) 2nd gas, Warp tech(1-2 chrono on warp tech to keep up with 4gate)2 more gates+DT shrine another sentry+zealots from this point only build zealots, you should also build 1-2 proxy pylons around the map so you can make dts near his base while you FF your ramp. 4gate will show up at ~6:15-6:30 so you have to hold for ~1 minute continue producing zealots constantly, a 3rd sentry will probably be needed split his forces in half on your ramp with FF and let zealots fight, you should have more zealots than a regular 4gater, and in the close combat stuck on a ramp you will win the fight at your base easily. Just in time to warp in 2 dt's and run them into your ememies mineral line, and at that points its gg, dts can kill robo faster than it can be built, and once he runs probes you will out produce him.
Wait, what? If you build a sentry before stalker is out to kill probe it's basically telling the opponent "hey I'm not 4 gating."
At that point it is as easy to go robo and you'll most certainly win because robo hardcounters DT.
Also you're forgetting about warp in on top of your ramp. its ez pz lemon squeezy to just warp in 4 zealots when you gain vision and have the stalkers on the bottom go to town.
DT will not work against a 4 gate executed properly. Not only that but how do you afford all that gas heavy stuff if you're building 2 or 3 sentries?
I find it easy to kill scouting probe with a sentry and 2-3 probes. With early second gas it very easy to afford all the gas try it(no stalkers = extra gas)...Not to mention dont let him build pylon next to your base its simple you should have 3-4 zealots to counter the pylon building probe.....If somehow they get a pylon up, FF at the bottom of the ramp and they wont get any vision.,,, you just have to hold on for a minute as soon as the dt's pop its over.
protip: use scouting probe to build pylons right in their base, forces them to respond and buys you time for dt's to pop.
On February 05 2011 14:37 mufin wrote: dts, if you can force field your ramp long enough till they pop.
DTs can only get out after 6.5 minutes... they would have to be terrible for that to work.
i agree, but 2 dts (one in his base, one in yours), can immediately win you the game if you can survive his 4 gate long enough. i've also seen players delay a 4 warp gate with early zealot pressure, cannon pressure or anything else that doesn't take gas. but in the end, i feel it isn't a very stable approach to the matchup.
the harder, more consistent way to counter 4 gate (in my opinion) is 3 gate blink stalker. Well micro'd blink stalkers > all gateway units. especially since it makes forcefields obsolete. check out this PvP between TLO and White-Ra if you need a better picture.
I couldn't find the reddit guy that casted the game so you'll have to deal with HD :p.
The match u linked is in no way supporting ur statement! White-Ra screwed up his early agression and proxy/ramp pylon placement and timing. If his zealots had finished warping in it would have been gg for TLO.
4 gate vs 3 gate blink is almost always a BO win for the 4gater. more units earlier. simple as that.
Dt's are good to keep in mind once you scout the 4 gate, don't rush to them. work your way towards them, spend some gas on a sentry or stalker or 2 if you need to (get lots of units but save the gas you can), hold off their 4 gate with yours and win with the Dt's they can't scout cause they can't get into your base hopefully.
depends very much on the map tho... if he's able to pin you down completely he can still win by expanding, altho the expo will come late, but urs will come even later then, wont it...
On February 06 2011 03:10 TheGiftedApe wrote: I think people need to take the DT build seriously, it is a hard counter to 4gate if you do it just right.
3chrono on probes 1 gate twilight council, build a sentry(try to hide council so it looks like you are 4gating) 2nd gas, Warp tech(1-2 chrono on warp tech to keep up with 4gate)2 more gates+DT shrine another sentry+zealots from this point only build zealots, you should also build 1-2 proxy pylons around the map so you can make dts near his base while you FF your ramp. 4gate will show up at ~6:15-6:30 so you have to hold for ~1 minute continue producing zealots constantly, a 3rd sentry will probably be needed split his forces in half on your ramp with FF and let zealots fight, you should have more zealots than a regular 4gater, and in the close combat stuck on a ramp you will win the fight at your base easily. Just in time to warp in 2 dt's and run them into your ememies mineral line, and at that points its gg, dts can kill robo faster than it can be built, and once he runs probes you will out produce him.
Wait, what? If you build a sentry before stalker is out to kill probe it's basically telling the opponent "hey I'm not 4 gating."
At that point it is as easy to go robo and you'll most certainly win because robo hardcounters DT.
Also you're forgetting about warp in on top of your ramp. its ez pz lemon squeezy to just warp in 4 zealots when you gain vision and have the stalkers on the bottom go to town.
DT will not work against a 4 gate executed properly. Not only that but how do you afford all that gas heavy stuff if you're building 2 or 3 sentries?
I find it easy to kill scouting probe with a sentry and 2-3 probes. With early second gas it very easy to afford all the gas try it(no stalkers = extra gas)...Not to mention dont let him build pylon next to your base its simple you should have 3-4 zealots to counter the pylon building probe.....If somehow they get a pylon up, FF at the bottom of the ramp and they wont get any vision.,,, you just have to hold on for a minute as soon as the dt's pop its over.
protip: use scouting probe to build pylons right in their base, forces them to respond and buys you time for dt's to pop.
lol, please don't give anyone "protips" because you clearly are not understanding PvP basics.
If you build a sentry before stalker it is a CLEAR sign that you're not 4 gating. I myself would much rather play standard than 4 gate and if I saw this I would immediately throw down a robo.
How, pray tell, are you going to afford to build anything if you're building pylons in their base? Not only that, but a smart player isn't going to be fooled when they see a sentry and then proxy pylons in their base. I would probably be like "wtf this guy is clueless."
Not only that, but it is clearly easy to tell what they are spending chrono on. If you're not k4g and you're building proxy pylons in my base I'm just going to wait for my stalker and zealot to kill the pylons.
DT rush will not work against perfectly executed 4 gate.
3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
Multiple builds can counter a 4g, until you can provide a 'well executed 4gate' replay, then be a little more open minded.
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
Multiple builds can counter a 4g, until you can provide a 'well executed 4gate' replay, then be a little more open minded.
I didn't think a replay was necessary for such a well known fact. But okay bud... will do. Now tell me what league / level do you play at? and be honest?
On February 05 2011 14:09 kcdc wrote: Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
Mind posting that build? Would love to try it out.
9 pylon 13 gate 13 gas 15 pylon core @ 100% gate zealot @100 minerals stalker @ 100% core (you'll have to chrono the end of the zealot to sync it up) robo ASAP when you can deny scouting (chrono the stalker out and start the robo out of the probe's vision if it stays in your base to be hunted down by your stalker. you need an immortal by 6 minutes and there aren't many seconds to spare) pylon robo @ 100% stalker (see above regarding timing) zealot @ 100 minerals 2nd gateway pylon immortal zealot @100% warpgate research, 2 more zealots and another immortal
It's basically 1-gas gate, robo, gate, but you'll find you need to gas on 13 to get your immortal out on time. Against a hard 4 gate with probe cutting, you'll want to cut some probes as well to get your stuff out a little earlier.
I've fooling around with 1 Gate FE with the aid of a Cannons. The idea is to expand really fast, like against Terran, and do 3WG +Cannon (on cliff better) to survive with a +1W coming quickly.
It won't work against 4gate all-ins (like 10 gate), but it MIGHT work against 12gate (push around 6.30ish).I've been failing at the Cannon timing so far.
If you manage to hold it off, then you're in an advantage. If opponent sees Cannon, we may be tempted to expand which will be awesome in PvPs...
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
Multiple builds can counter a 4g, until you can provide a 'well executed 4gate' replay, then be a little more open minded.
I didn't think a replay was necessary for such a well known fact. But okay bud... will do. Now tell me what league / level do you play at? and be honest?
~400 point silver. If you would like to demonstrate your well executed 4g, vs a 3g robo then lets play a couple games.
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
Multiple builds can counter a 4g, until you can provide a 'well executed 4gate' replay, then be a little more open minded.
I didn't think a replay was necessary for such a well known fact. But okay bud... will do. Now tell me what league / level do you play at? and be honest?
~400 point silver. If you would like to demonstrate your well executed 4g, vs a 3g robo then lets play a couple games.
Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread.
On February 06 2011 07:13 Volka wrote: I've fooling around with 1 Gate FE with the aid of a Cannons. The idea is to expand really fast, like against Terran, and do 3WG +Cannon (on cliff better) to survive with a +1W coming quickly.
It won't work against 4gate all-ins (like 10 gate), but it MIGHT work against 12gate (push around 6.30ish).I've been failing at the Cannon timing so far.
If you manage to hold it off, then you're in an advantage. If opponent sees Cannon, we may be tempted to expand which will be awesome in PvPs...
Ehh, I've tried this before... and the 12gate probe cutting 4 gate comes at 6 min, you won't be able to hold it.
On February 06 2011 04:41 mizU wrote: 3 gate robo is probably the best defense. Yes you need to FF perfectly, or close to perfectly, but if yo udo you are almost guaranteed a win.
And about those warp in base pylons, generally players will throw them down too early, so it's easy to snip, but if they throw it down as they push up the ramp.
FF about 3 units into your base, kite and kill, then snipe the pylon. You should be able to not cut probes, keep up constant gate production as well as make immortals
The crucial thing here is to NEVER supply block yourself.
I've lost too many times where I needed a sentry but got supply blocked.
Also, with your defending army, always have at least 2 zealots, and 2 sentries.
Everything else should be stalkers and immortals.
Eventually he will retreat or just lose his whole army. At that point you should be able to chrono an obs out, throw down an expo.
At this point you are free to harass on closer position maps, and use the obs to snipe high ground things and or bait and FF off the army.
I'm sorry, but even with 3 gate robo, especially with no probe cuts, you're not going to counter a well executed 4 gate. I Bust any robo build all the time. At the 6 min mark when i push up your ramp and start my pylon, even when you kill the 1 zealot i had up your ramp, as soon as my pylon is finished I warp in 4 zealots, try and snipe your sentries and then just brute force in. You can't assume that "players will throw down ramp pylons too early" that's just dumb. Most people at the upper level will do it right, and you won't even be able to build an immortal because you're going to be too busy trying to warp in as many units as u can to fend off the attack.
IF you want to try some kind of 3 gate robo, it has to be a delayed robo and you're going to have to chrono units out of your gates to trake map control.
Multiple builds can counter a 4g, until you can provide a 'well executed 4gate' replay, then be a little more open minded.
I didn't think a replay was necessary for such a well known fact. But okay bud... will do. Now tell me what league / level do you play at? and be honest?
~400 point silver. If you would like to demonstrate your well executed 4g, vs a 3g robo then lets play a couple games.
Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread.
These threads are to discuss strategy supported by factual information, claiming that someone elses build will fail because they do not cut probes or chrono boost their gateways is not supporting you point. Picking on lower level players who prove a valid point and saying "When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread." is not only trolling but also flaming :/
On February 06 2011 07:13 Volka wrote: I've fooling around with 1 Gate FE with the aid of a Cannons. The idea is to expand really fast, like against Terran, and do 3WG +Cannon (on cliff better) to survive with a +1W coming quickly.
It won't work against 4gate all-ins (like 10 gate), but it MIGHT work against 12gate (push around 6.30ish).I've been failing at the Cannon timing so far.
If you manage to hold it off, then you're in an advantage. If opponent sees Cannon, we may be tempted to expand which will be awesome in PvPs...
a nexus + forge + 1 cannon + 1W upgrade= 650(1 gate less)/100 recources spent more than ur 4 gating opponent till the 6 minute mark (not taking into account the minerals spent on double probe production)
By the time the 4 gate hits, ur eco won't even be close to the point where u pull ahead of one base play I had a lot of hard times with expanding even after I did severe eco damage using Adel's no gas build.
On February 06 2011 07:13 Volka wrote: I've fooling around with 1 Gate FE with the aid of a Cannons. The idea is to expand really fast, like against Terran, and do 3WG +Cannon (on cliff better) to survive with a +1W coming quickly.
It won't work against 4gate all-ins (like 10 gate), but it MIGHT work against 12gate (push around 6.30ish).I've been failing at the Cannon timing so far.
If you manage to hold it off, then you're in an advantage. If opponent sees Cannon, we may be tempted to expand which will be awesome in PvPs...
a nexus + forge + 1 cannon + 1W upgrade= 650(1 gate less)/100 recources spent more than ur 4 gating opponent till the 6 minute mark (not taking into account the minerals spent on double probe production)
By the time the 4 gate hits, ur eco won't even be close to the point where u pull ahead of one base play I had a lot of hard times with expanding even after I did severe eco damage using Adel's no gas build.
you want to fall back to 4warpgate after you expand, if worse comes to pass then you are at the same potential as your opponent. with adel make sure you chrono boost your warpgate tech after the stalkers come out.
Here is one replay of 4gate vs 1gate robo, which IMO is better than 3 gate or 2 gate roboing. I will post replays of 3 gate robo in a minute, I'm working on it. And Rhythm... I'm Acridice.147 play me and I show you.
PvP right now is all about one base. Whether it be 4 gate, 3 gate robo, or even 3 gate star. It's all about micro as well. When you go into a pvp just have a mind set that your gonna wonna kill him asap. Also if you see him doing a earlier 4 gate than you make sure you defend with 2 gas sentries. This ensures that you keep your ramp safe and you can split his army and stuff.
A major way to improve pvp is simply micro your heart out and make sure you dont get caught off guard by the opponents sentries.
Economical 4-Gate is the best counter to 4-Gate on maps where they can warp in from areas other than your ramp (DQ) or maps with wide ramps (Scrap). It is also IMO the easiest way to handle it on all maps.
IMO chronoing units out of 3 Gates ways works best since it transitions into tech easier and allows you to put on early pressure before warpgate tech is done so you can both confirm if they are doing 4-Gate or not and to delay their proxy pylon probe if they are in fact doing it. There are a lot of variations of 3-Gate so you have to experiment to see what works best in what situations. Generally on larger maps if I suspect 4-Gate and I see no initial zealot from them I get 3 early stalkers which I use to confirm the 4-Gate and delay their proxy pylon probe + escort, which will usually only be 1 zealot and 1 stalker. If they push me back by warping in their first round of units at their base that's when I warp in a sentry or 2 at mine and then make an arc of sentries at the top of my ramp which will blast any warping in zealots they try to make with no casualities w/ some minor micro. Once you hold this first round of warp-ins at your ramp you can pretty much just overwhelm them.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
The problem is he can just sit below your ramp and tech/expand freely.
Once warpgate tech comes in, he will be the one in the dark. Containing a cannoned ramp in general is not a good idea, for all you know he may never need to push out.
Not sure if being 3300 diamond means to you but cannons are awful.
This build does very well against a 4gate, even though you won't have a sentry. If you successfully followed this build till bout 50 supply, you should have 24 probes, 5 zealots and 8 stalkers. That should be plenty to fend off the first attack of a 4gate.
If you fend off the original attack, you can throw up a tech building and either defend and tech up or add on another gateway and go on the agressive.
I always hold off 4 gates with 3 gate robo. I go a typical 1 gate core opening and make a stalker right away and cb warpgates(I use my first 3 on probes). Then I make 2 more gates and a robo and my second gas when I can afford them. I get 2 sentries before the 4gate hits. When it hit, I constantly keep my ramp forcefielded. I warp in new sentries when I need them.It might sound unreasonable, but you should definitely be able to get enough sentries as long as you dont get too many stalkers. If they build a proxy pylon, just make sure your ramp is forcefielded and you'll be fine. 4 zealots without any support will die really easily. Also, it should in range of your stalkers, so you can keep pecking away at it. Once my robo finishes, I immediately cb immortals out. If I survive to the point where I have 2 immortals out, I'm pretty much guaranteed a win. Now I push out, set up a contain around my opponent, and tech up to colossus while I expand.
If a Protoss players 4gate is being countered by anything other than another better executed 4gate then he isn't 4gating correctly. All of these strategies besides adelscott's bank on forcefielding your ramp which is made irrelevant by the bug where you can warp in a zealot at the top of the ramp for vision/warping that has been posted about.
I really wish TL could sync with peoples SC2 accounts so all of the platinum and lower players can be immediately discredited for not knowing any better. People linking the TLO vs WhiteRa game, just look at the timer on the game when WhiteRa's 4 gate finally hits. The timing is way off.
On February 06 2011 10:05 Skyro wrote: Economical 4-Gate is the best counter to 4-Gate on maps where they can warp in from areas other than your ramp (DQ) or maps with wide ramps (Scrap). It is also IMO the easiest way to handle it on all maps.
IMO chronoing units out of 3 Gates ways works best since it transitions into tech easier and allows you to put on early pressure before warpgate tech is done so you can both confirm if they are doing 4-Gate or not and to delay their proxy pylon probe if they are in fact doing it. There are a lot of variations of 3-Gate so you have to experiment to see what works best in what situations. Generally on larger maps if I suspect 4-Gate and I see no initial zealot from them I get 3 early stalkers which I use to confirm the 4-Gate and delay their proxy pylon probe + escort, which will usually only be 1 zealot and 1 stalker. If they push me back by warping in their first round of units at their base that's when I warp in a sentry or 2 at mine and then make an arc of sentries at the top of my ramp which will blast any warping in zealots they try to make with no casualities w/ some minor micro. Once you hold this first round of warp-ins at your ramp you can pretty much just overwhelm them.
My 2 gate robo immortal zealot opening holds 4 gate regardless of the choke. I don't use forcefields. If you work out timings, you can defend an optimal 4 gate in creative ways.
Well kcdc, I think you're right about the 1 gate robo. If you're going to robo, 1 gate robo is what holds it off, not 2 gate then robo or 3 gate then robo. I still think it could be beat by a 4 gate executed correctly. When the 4 gate comes at 6 min, he brings with it 6 stalkers 1 zealot, pushes up ramp and warps in 4 more zealots at the top of ramp.
What do you have at 6:30? I'm guessing maybe 5 zealots max a stalker and an immortal? Not to mention, since you're not making any sentries, he is just going to walk right in your base with 5 zealots so his stalkers are free to focus fire your immortal. I'll work on this build with some friends of mine some more (4gate vs 1 gaterobo) and see what comes out. I'll have them do the 13gate13gas as you're saying and only go 1 gas, no sentries.
As far as the FE builds against 4 gate. It just aint happenin bud. I don't care what level your opponent was. You got lucky and he didn't scout well enough, or he didn't do an agressive 4 gate. If you disagree with what I have just said, please, please, post the replay of your FE on xel'naga.
for all the random people coming into this thread and talking out of their ass, please provide replays to support your argument so others can see what your doing step by step. No one is going to be convinced of anything if everyone keeps spouting builds that may or may not work. it just leads to childish arguing.
i like doing a one or two gate robo, and usualy when you scout it you're in a bit of trouble. all you really need to do with your robotics is sit long enough in your base, get colosus, then push out, you should be able to kill him, but then its quite risky too. right now thats the only thing i do versus 4gate and it works decently.
On February 06 2011 16:20 LanTAs wrote: i like doing a one or two gate robo, and usualy when you scout it you're in a bit of trouble. all you really need to do with your robotics is sit long enough in your base, get colosus, then push out, you should be able to kill him, but then its quite risky too. right now thats the only thing i do versus 4gate and it works decently.
I think we all know what to do with a robo. it is the defense of the 4 gate when you go robo tech that is in question.
and replays would be very nice. But please, only of someone hitting you with a 6 min 4 gate. Nothing else.
On February 05 2011 14:09 kcdc wrote: Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
I like (1). if you 4gate with more probes (and/or a second gas vs. a 1-gas 4gate) then you can eventually outproduce your opponent, and break out or contain for the advantage, which has been working pretty well for me lately.
I'm less certain about (2) or (3). Even if you can hold vs. an all-in 4gate (i.e. with cut probes and chrono all on warpgates) I'd think these would generally be at a disadvantage against a more economic 4gate? Is this the case?
edit: by "be at a disadvantage" I mean they can just contain/expo vs. all those sentries or your 2gate robo and win later on.
i honestly feel like iv seen 3 topics abut this, total dejavu. But yea basically it, unless you can 3 gate with some intense micro (picking off pylons or the scout probe)
Here is a replay of me doing 4gate vs 2 gate robo with 2 gas (2700 masters). When I play vs a 3 gate robo I will show you but I feel that that is even worse.
Now, as for the 1 gate 1 gas robo, I haven't played against that, but I still have a hard time imagining it doing any better against a 2 gas robo considering you don't even have sentries to split the army. But, I haven't played it yet so I couldn't tell you. I will try and have someone do that for me today, and see how it goes.
I am very interested in kcdc's suggestion, but I don't see it working. With only 2 gates and immortals (probaby more like 1 immortal), the 4gater can just pull off gas and continuously warp in 4gates worth of Zealots. Immortals are horrible against Zealots and you can't get enough Zealots out of 2 gates yourself.
4gate with double gas and sentry stalker. force field ramp and kill warpin zealots with ranged units while putting own zealots on hold. tech faster than him once safe and kill him with 2 colossi
On February 06 2011 11:57 Arch00 wrote: If a Protoss players 4gate is being countered by anything other than another better executed 4gate then he isn't 4gating correctly. All of these strategies besides adelscott's bank on forcefielding your ramp which is made irrelevant by the bug where you can warp in a zealot at the top of the ramp for vision/warping that has been posted about.
I really wish TL could sync with peoples SC2 accounts so all of the platinum and lower players can be immediately discredited for not knowing any better. People linking the TLO vs WhiteRa game, just look at the timer on the game when WhiteRa's 4 gate finally hits. The timing is way off.
"I really wish TL could sync with peoples SC2 accounts so all of the platinum and lower players can be immediately discredited for not knowing any better" - now you are trolling and cutting down on lowbies.
On February 05 2011 14:09 kcdc wrote: Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
I would never even do option 2. However, you CAN do an aggressive 3 gate stalker and try to intercept their push before it has its first warpin round. If you can manage to throw off tempo you win the game almost for sure.
Option 3 of course is the best, but you actually have to be on top of your scouting cause zealots and immortals don't shoot up without the zealot pyramid stacking upgrade, and I've never seen anyone be able to get that one yet.
On February 07 2011 02:07 Acridice wrote: For those of you who want replays....
Here is a replay of me doing 4gate vs 2 gate robo with 2 gas (2700 masters). When I play vs a 3 gate robo I will show you but I feel that that is even worse.
Now, as for the 1 gate 1 gas robo, I haven't played against that, but I still have a hard time imagining it doing any better against a 2 gas robo considering you don't even have sentries to split the army. But, I haven't played it yet so I couldn't tell you. I will try and have someone do that for me today, and see how it goes.
2 gate and 3 gate will even out at around 8-10 mins, your right about 2g being better then 3g, your timing attack comes a lot sooner, and you are more prepared for the 6min mark.
2 versions of a 2gate robo, you can put the second gate down before or after the robo, if it is placed after the robo it is equivalent to a 1g robo, only you don't chrono boost your cyber.
It is equivalent to the pvt 2g robo build, you can put your gate down at 13 supply, go zealot - stalker - sentry, and then put down 2 more gates as your robo completes and kick up to a 4 warpgate with your timing push.
= 3-4z 2sentry 2stalker 1immortal at about 6-6:20, 3g robo is delayed on the timing push, and that is ultimately why people feel they need to fall back on FF. if you 2g your immortal comes out and you can kill your opponents proxy pylon.
I think you ought to watch the replay Dane. He put the second gate very shortly after 1st gate and then robo. He had pretty much exactly what you are saying. 3-4z 2 sentry 2s and 1 immortal. He doesn't have the ability to kill the proxy pylon with those units.
So let's see he has 4z 2 sentry 2s and 1 immortal vs my 6 Stalker, 5 zealots. Then after an exchange, he is only warping in 2 units at a time where as I'm warping in 4 units at a time. I really don't think a 2 gas build with any kind of robo tech is gonna cut it. We'll see about the 1 gas 1 gate robo. And btw, I uploaded a 4gate vs 1gate robo on pg 3, and that failed as well.. And btw, I don't think there is anything wrong with discrediting the "lowbies." Don't you think there is a reason you play at that level?
On February 05 2011 14:16 Parra wrote: I believe a 3 gate starport can easily defend a 4gate as well
Eeh, not really. I used to love doing 3 gate pheonix and just holding my ramp and harassing, but once you play good people they can get an expo up very quickly while you really cant if they camp you ramp.
3 gate double gas robo can work, just going sentry, stalker and immortal. Then following a 3 collosis with range push... But surviving the initial 4 gate is very difficult, usually I feel like it was my opponent at fault. Ofcourse a 4 gate to counter works too, but you really dont have many options. Also a DT rush with 2 early sentry can work, but thats a toss up
Check the replays of the TL Teamspeak, WhiteRa v TLO on Xel Naga Caverns + Show Spoiler +
TLO decimates WhiteRa's 4 gate with a stargate opening, using graviton beam to lift up enemy stalkers to be shot down by his own stalkers then gains total map control from the phoenixs
On February 05 2011 14:16 Parra wrote: I believe a 3 gate starport can easily defend a 4gate as well
Eeh, not really. I used to love doing 3 gate pheonix and just holding my ramp and harassing, but once you play good people they can get an expo up very quickly while you really cant if they camp you ramp.
3 gate double gas robo can work, just going sentry, stalker and immortal. Then following a 3 collosis with range push... But surviving the initial 4 gate is very difficult, usually I feel like it was my opponent at fault. Ofcourse a 4 gate to counter works too, but you really dont have many options. Also a DT rush with 2 early sentry can work, but thats a toss up
Check the replays of the TL Teamspeak, WhiteRa v TLO on Xel Naga Caverns + Show Spoiler +
TLO decimates WhiteRa's 4 gate with a stargate opening, using graviton beam to lift up enemy stalkers to be shot down by his own stalkers then gains total map control from the phoenixs
No one 4gates on European servers. It's a different meta game over there.
Platinum level game, plenty room for improvement on both sides. I've never 4 Gated, so I don't know how well he did exactly, but for my part, I had one fail force field, my Immortals shot Zealots almost exclusively, and I didn't bother to micro my Stalkers, who got ripped up by Zealots. Basically, I choked.
Still, I managed to fend off the attack, expand and poke back at him, winning the game.
Platinum level game, plenty room for improvement on both sides. I've never 4 Gated, so I don't know how well he did exactly, but for my part, I had one fail force field, my Immortals shot Zealots almost exclusively, and I didn't bother to micro my Stalkers, who got ripped up by Zealots. Basically, I choked.
Still, I managed to fend off the attack, expand and poke back at him, winning the game.
Ahhh... this is what I'm talking about... THIS is not a proper 4gate. For all of you who think that a 4gate is just putting down 4 gates and attacking, then watch my replay
and learn what a real PvP 4 gate is. He Didn't boost his cyber once. His first round of warp ins were 4 zealots at the 6:30 mark, not to mention he built his 3rd pylon before gates. The real 4 gate: cyber is boosted all the way through with the first round of warp ins coming at ~5:50 which is a round of stalkers, then a pylon at the ramp and a round of 4 zealots in their base.
So... if you defend THAT 4gate with robo tech, please upload. Otherwise refrain from doing so.
On a side note, I think we are all aware of these possibilities to beat a 4gate: econ 4 gate, adelscott in close positions, and the 5z8s rush. With the 5z8s rush though, IMO it loses to tech, but I'm still testing that theory.
And btw, I have uploaded 2 replays so far of 2700 masters 4gate stomping on robo builds. i have yet to see a replay of a robo build fending off a properly executed 4 gate... just sayinnn....
On February 05 2011 14:37 mufin wrote: dts, if you can force field your ramp long enough till they pop.
DTs can only get out after 6.5 minutes... they would have to be terrible for that to work.
6.5 mins are when most four gates happen... interesting
I've actualy played a friend of mine experimenting with dt build against 4gate. The fastest he could get it out was when my 3rd wave of warp-in's hit his base. It's too risky and not worth it. The best case scenario is that you end up with a base trade. As soon as I saw dt's, i warped in zealots (on hold) at my main, blocked my ramp buitl a forge, and got ready to wall off if need be.
On February 05 2011 14:16 Parra wrote: I believe a 3 gate starport can easily defend a 4gate as well
Eeh, not really. I used to love doing 3 gate pheonix and just holding my ramp and harassing, but once you play good people they can get an expo up very quickly while you really cant if they camp you ramp.
3 gate double gas robo can work, just going sentry, stalker and immortal. Then following a 3 collosis with range push... But surviving the initial 4 gate is very difficult, usually I feel like it was my opponent at fault. Ofcourse a 4 gate to counter works too, but you really dont have many options. Also a DT rush with 2 early sentry can work, but thats a toss up
Check the replays of the TL Teamspeak, WhiteRa v TLO on Xel Naga Caverns + Show Spoiler +
TLO decimates WhiteRa's 4 gate with a stargate opening, using graviton beam to lift up enemy stalkers to be shot down by his own stalkers then gains total map control from the phoenixs
No one 4gates on European servers. It's a different meta game over there.
...what is it with these TLO vs White-Ra games in this thread? White-Ra wasn't (!!!) 4 gating but actually dropping a quick twilight council for blink stalkers. But see for urself(the phoenix thing is still amazing): TLO vs White-Ra TL SC2 Open 11 finals
oh and 4 gating in PvP is most common on EU servers, it's just that TLO has a very unique style of playing any of the 3 races.
Platinum level game, plenty room for improvement on both sides. I've never 4 Gated, so I don't know how well he did exactly, but for my part, I had one fail force field, my Immortals shot Zealots almost exclusively, and I didn't bother to micro my Stalkers, who got ripped up by Zealots. Basically, I choked.
Still, I managed to fend off the attack, expand and poke back at him, winning the game.
Ahhh... this is what I'm talking about... THIS is not a proper 4gate. For all of you who think that a 4gate is just putting down 4 gates and attacking, then watch my replay
and learn what a real PvP 4 gate is. He Didn't boost his cyber once. His first round of warp ins were 4 zealots at the 6:30 mark, not to mention he built his 3rd pylon before gates. The real 4 gate: cyber is boosted all the way through with the first round of warp ins coming at ~5:50 which is a round of stalkers, then a pylon at the ramp and a round of 4 zealots in their base.
So... if you defend THAT 4gate with robo tech, please upload. Otherwise refrain from doing so.
On a side note, I think we are all aware of these possibilities to beat a 4gate: econ 4 gate, adelscott in close positions, and the 5z8s rush. With the 5z8s rush though, IMO it loses to tech, but I'm still testing that theory.
And btw, I have uploaded 2 replays so far of 2700 masters 4gate stomping on robo builds. i have yet to see a replay of a robo build fending off a properly executed 4 gate... just sayinnn....
thank you for clearing alot of things up and thanks for the replay.
one question though, have you experimented with blink stalkers against 4 gate? i saw the tlo vs white-ra game but they both did some wacky stuff before they attacked and by that time tlo had blink. if you have a replay of a straight 4 gate against a straight blink stalker build i would like to look at the timings.
Props KCDC, you the man. I've done your 1 gate 1 gas 1 robo build against a friend of mine about 5/6 times. here is a replay with very little mistakes on either side.
I know I've been advocating that any robo build loses to 4gate. And I still think that any 2 gas robo build loses to 4gate, but this build is awesome. It held it off everytime I did not make huge micro mistakes.
Here is the replay: You guys should really watch this.
straight up blink stalkers gets mutilated by a good 4 gate. The thing is that the effect of blink won't really we that big untill you have more stalkers and a 4 gate hits when you have about 6 stalkers max.
Also it is impossible to get blink out in time as it is actually quite expensive and a long tech. Even if you do get it out he can just send his zealots after your probes and there will be no way your blink stalkers can help out.
Blink stalkers are a great strat that does well against everything that is not 4 gate. Against very slow versions of the 4 gate it can work but it's still quite hard.
On February 07 2011 06:04 Acridice wrote: Props KCDC, you the man. I've done your 1 gate 1 gas 1 robo build against a friend of mine about 5/6 times. here is a replay with very little mistakes on either side.
I know I've been advocating that any robo build loses to 4gate. And I still think that any 2 gas robo build loses to 4gate, but this build is awesome. It held it off everytime I did not make huge micro mistakes.
Here is the replay: You guys should really watch this.
Hm, I watched that replay and I really don't buy it. If he had just waited for his round of zealot warpins to attack (waiting only about 10 seconds if he hadn't gotten supply blocked) he would have had 5 zealot 6 stalker vs your 5 zealot 1 stalker 1 immortal, which wins easily.
he hardly did anything wrong there. He executed that 4gate pretty much exactly as it should go. When he pushed up, the only thing he lost was a zealot, then he warped in 4 zealots. If you would like to try a 4 gate against this build, I'm open anytime. I stuffed the 4 gate 4 times out of 5, and I guarantee I stuff yours. Acridice.147.
Please... play me, I would like to play some other players to test it out more.
Whst i like to do is go 3gate robo with zealot, sentry, inmortal with not much stalkers but do include some, also good FFs help you a lot plus with good micro you cna beat the pushand just eventually kill him, and if you scout the push dont expand:D
On February 07 2011 07:14 TemplarCo. wrote: Whst i like to do is go 3gate robo with zealot, sentry, inmortal with not much stalkers but do include some, also good FFs help you a lot plus with good micro you cna beat the pushand just eventually kill him, and if you scout the push dont expand:D
What level of play do you do this at? I still don't think 3 gate robo will hold it. Don't just chime in and say somethin with no proof, when people have already claimed this with no replay yet I have shown replays of me beating it. try also reading some of the thread atleast rather than just the OP.
And btw, if you go 3 gate robo, I guarantee you, that you will not have an immortal out when my push comes at 6 min...
On February 07 2011 06:04 Acridice wrote: Props KCDC, you the man. I've done your 1 gate 1 gas 1 robo build against a friend of mine about 5/6 times. here is a replay with very little mistakes on either side.
I know I've been advocating that any robo build loses to 4gate. And I still think that any 2 gas robo build loses to 4gate, but this build is awesome. It held it off everytime I did not make huge micro mistakes.
Here is the replay: You guys should really watch this.
Glad you've learned! I used to use 2 gas gate robo gate and I was able to decimate 4 gates until people learned how to warpin past forcefields. If they can fix that "bug" then 2 gas will be safe, but for now if you make a sentry you're going to probably lose.
10gate early stalker pressure builds can beat it by hitting them while they are still trying to get their warpgates up. 2gate or 3gate robo can hold it with good sentry usage and cb's on sentries.
if you find you don't have the ability to pull these methods off I suggest you just 4gate yourself.
On February 08 2011 03:01 Alejandrisha wrote: 10gate early stalker pressure builds can beat it by hitting them while they are still trying to get their warpgates up. 2gate or 3gate robo can hold it with good sentry usage and cb's on sentries.
if you find you don't have the ability to pull these methods off I suggest you just 4gate yourself.
Did u read anything but the OP?
I've heard several claims that 2/3 gate robo with sentries can hold it. I haven't seen one replay of this. I however have provided replays in this thread of me stomping on 2/3 gate robos at 2700 Masters lvl. Please just don't make empty statements especially without reading most if not all of the thread. If you haven't noticed there is generally progression in a thread, and not just OP / answer.
On February 08 2011 07:47 gardis wrote: 3 Gate Robo hold it with an attack ~5:50
make sure u get > zealot > stalker > sentry > sentry
and 1 gate robo is crap thats never works
So many fools on this forum. Read more than the OP man. Seriously, it's ridiculous. I'm about to give up on this forum. As tastesless says... "Reading the forums gives me brain cancer"
Here is a replay of me holding a 6min 4 gate with 1 gate 1 gas robo. It's the sentry robo builds that don't hold it. And if you would like, I will play you and show you me stomp your robo build.
I've always thought you need 4gates to counter 4gate. However, lately, I've been facing a 3gate robo build as well where they get zealot/sentry/immortal. If they constantly FF the ramp, they should be able to hold it.
I won all my PvPs on the ladder this early year (somehow =x) but when I jumped on the ladder yesterday, that build completely blew my mind. I'm something like 1-5 vs that build since yesterday. ><"
On February 08 2011 07:58 K3Nyy wrote: I've always thought you need 4gates to counter 4gate. However, lately, I've been facing a 3gate robo build as well where they get zealot/sentry/immortal. If they constantly FF the ramp, they should be able to hold it.
I won all my PvPs on the ladder this early year (somehow =x) but when I jumped on the ladder yesterday, that build completely blew my mind. I'm something like 1-5 vs that build since yesterday. ><"
What build? A 3 gate robo? Why not post a replay...
whenever i try to hold off a super all in 4 gate by ffing the ramp, they just warp one zealot over my ff and then 3 more at the top of my ramp.. can anyone post a replay or screenshot demonstrating where exactly you need to forcefield so they can't do this.
On February 08 2011 08:03 bowyert wrote: whenever i try to hold off a super all in 4 gate by ffing the ramp, they just warp one zealot over my ff and then 3 more at the top of my ramp.. can anyone post a replay or screenshot demonstrating where exactly you need to forcefield so they can't do this.
On February 08 2011 07:47 gardis wrote: 3 Gate Robo hold it with an attack ~5:50
make sure u get > zealot > stalker > sentry > sentry
and 1 gate robo is crap thats never works
So many fools on this forum. Read more than the OP man. Seriously, it's ridiculous. I'm about to give up on this forum. As tastesless says... "Reading the forums gives me brain cancer"
Here is a replay of me holding a 6min 4 gate with 1 gate 1 gas robo. It's the sentry robo builds that don't hold it. And if you would like, I will play you and show you me stomp your robo build.
On February 08 2011 07:47 gardis wrote: 3 Gate Robo hold it with an attack ~5:50
make sure u get > zealot > stalker > sentry > sentry
and 1 gate robo is crap thats never works
So many fools on this forum. Read more than the OP man. Seriously, it's ridiculous. I'm about to give up on this forum. As tastesless says... "Reading the forums gives me brain cancer"
Here is a replay of me holding a 6min 4 gate with 1 gate 1 gas robo. It's the sentry robo builds that don't hold it. And if you would like, I will play you and show you me stomp your robo build.
i already saw ur replay and it doesnt work vs a 4 gate gas allin.
and dont call me fool. if dont believe it go and search a 3 gate robo build which holds 4 Gate.
just need forcefields to buy time.
even if he warpin on top u still can hold it.
and no thanks i dont wanna play u
Pallleeassse... then what was his 4 gate then? It came at 6 min and cut at 20 probes. Honestly... are u referring to a k4g or somethin? I mean come on. Doesn't the replay prove that it works?
Not to mention the build I did was submitted by a 3k Master toss, and I am 2.7k master... what're you?
I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread.
alright well I guess we are just a bunch of ass holes passing through your chapel of gosu. Do you follow the pro scene? Have you really never seen a pvp that didn't end in just 4g vs 4g all ins? If there was no real counter to it but 4gates then that is all that anyone would ever do. I understand you are frustrated by losing to it. Heck we all lose to it sometimes. But instead of going off on everyone who says 3gate robo, why not actually go back and watch past mlg vods and pro replays? The only map where this strategy is 100% absolutely the best build is scrap station. On every other map with a small ramp you can see just about everything.
I think just last week TLO beat white-ra with a 3gate blink tech build against white-ra's 4gate close positions metal
I've said it several times on this site, 3 gate / forge beats 4 gate.
You can have 4-5 zealots in his base and two cannons warping behind his mineral lines at around the 5 minute mark. He either has to deal with the zealot pressure or pull probes to kill the cannons. Either way you come out ahead.
On February 08 2011 13:56 Alejandrisha wrote: alright well I guess we are just a bunch of ass holes passing through your chapel of gosu. Do you follow the pro scene? Have you really never seen a pvp that didn't end in just 4g vs 4g all ins? If there was no real counter to it but 4gates then that is all that anyone would ever do. I understand you are frustrated by losing to it. Heck we all lose to it sometimes. But instead of going off on everyone who says 3gate robo, why not actually go back and watch past mlg vods and pro replays? The only map where this strategy is 100% absolutely the best build is scrap station. On every other map with a small ramp you can see just about everything.
I think just last week TLO beat white-ra with a 3gate blink tech build against white-ra's 4gate close positions metal
I aggree to some extend with the first paragraph but then...again the White-Ra vs TLO match...not a good example at all, since it was not a properly executed 4gate against a straight blink build. please do not throw in references to pro games in order to support ur argument until u r sure what happened in those games and when u do, why not post a link to them (for this particular game klick here).ty.
On February 08 2011 13:56 Alejandrisha wrote: alright well I guess we are just a bunch of ass holes passing through your chapel of gosu. Do you follow the pro scene? Have you really never seen a pvp that didn't end in just 4g vs 4g all ins? If there was no real counter to it but 4gates then that is all that anyone would ever do. I understand you are frustrated by losing to it. Heck we all lose to it sometimes. But instead of going off on everyone who says 3gate robo, why not actually go back and watch past mlg vods and pro replays? The only map where this strategy is 100% absolutely the best build is scrap station. On every other map with a small ramp you can see just about everything.
I think just last week TLO beat white-ra with a 3gate blink tech build against white-ra's 4gate close positions metal
When did I ever say that there was no real counter to it? When did I ever complain about losing to it. Not too mention, I linked a counter to it by going gate robo gate on one gas. I am however saying that any kind of 2 gas with sentries robo build will not beat it because the sentries are essentially null and void when I warp in above your ramp
I'm saying that I have a problem with people claiming that 2 gas robo builds beat it, yet I have seen no replay to justify such, and I have never been beat by a 2 gas robo build when I 4gate at the masters level.
And as far as the pro games go... It's all about them feelin eachother out. If they show that they're not 4 gating, the other person reacts by either 4 gating or not 4 gating. More often than not he reacts by not 4 gating, and the game proceeds normally. And, once again, there are counters to the 4gate, but I don't believe a 2 gas robo build is one. And btw, ramp size has nothing to do with it.
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
You are totally right. I am a 2500 diamond and I am BAD. Everyone in diamond is bad too. I also hate wading through 6 pages of garbage including silver/gold level replays of a bad 3gate into late robo and the other guy is "fast expanding" at this time. Just ridiculous.
I've been using a K4G variant where you don't cut gas and build one stalker before warpgate is done, putting your 3rd pylon close to the opponent and the fourth at their ramp after warping in 4 more stalkers (for a total of 5).
You can then warp zealots and a stalker up their ramp. I haven't lost in the few ( <10) games I've done with it, except one where I botched the build, but I'm only diamond. Most games were against 4 gate, some they had a robo.
Does anyone have masters level replays of dealing with such a build?
I want to thank you for using this weird concept called "logic", even though it seems in short supply. I don't think you have made any baseless claims. You back up your statements with videos and you ask that those who disagree do the same. I am sure you are very frustrated by the bullshit quotient, but I am interested in this topic and I am using you as a filter to help me navigate it (I am a mere platinum player so I need help from my betters).
Wow some of you guys are harsh. Sure it's clear some people here haven't really faced a truely well-timed 4-gate but how long does it take you to "wade" through 6 pgs of replies, 2 mins? It isn't hard to tell who does and doesn't know what they are talking about.
FWIW, I just posted a guide on my 1-gas gate-robo-gate opening that's designed to beat 4-gate without sacrificing too much tech or econ. Acridice, I also posted your replay along with a couple of mine. Hope you don't mind.
On February 09 2011 04:06 Skyro wrote: Wow some of you guys are harsh. Sure it's clear some people here haven't really faced a truely well-timed 4-gate but how long does it take you to "wade" through 6 pgs of replies, 2 mins? It isn't hard to tell who does and doesn't know what they are talking about.
Yeah it does seem harsh, and just reading the posts aren't that bad, but there are those people who, like me, downloaded the replays in the attempt to see some legitimate counters and ended up getting frustrated at spending my time watching something like a poorly executed 4-gate missing its window and being rolled by some random build.
On February 09 2011 05:34 SFGhoax wrote: best way i believe is to either 4gate yourself when you start to spot it or to go 3gate robo and get a fast sentry out til you can get your immo out
Dude, I really wish people would read more than just the OP, otherwise you would keep your mouth shut (fingers still).
i've been giving kcdc's build a shot, and having mixed results with it.
few points
-even if you keep a probe in their base until a stalker pops, they can still hide their tech route, suiciding a probe can work, but if it turns out they are going for voids or quick expanding, this build leaves you in kind of an awkward situation
-this can definitely stop a 4 gate, but i feel it is a bit awkward to open with, if they aren't going 4 gate, or, they go stargate tech, 2 phoenix shuts this down
-like in my first point, this build has a bit of a tough time adapting to stargate tech or quick expands that are scouted late. you can go for quick colossi, but if they are going stargate, 2 voids cause a ton of problems.
still trying to toy with this, but it seems like if you chose to expand instead of go to a colossus allin, they can just nail your expo if they aren't expanding
these are mostly against people who delay their tech route, against 4 gaters this works out fine.
im a masters league P. ive nearly made it viable in masters league to 3 gate forge and then go phoenix +1 and harass probes after 3 phoenix. the problem is if you mess up ever so slightly and get zealots on your ramp its over, but FFs + outranging cannons is really cost effective defense wise and most Ps when they see your cannon really commit hard to finishing you off with a 4 gate. after their 4 gate kind of fails, the cannon forces obs for fear of DT (which blindly leads to immortal production) and phoenix owns immortal.
the key is, perfect forge timing, +1 and tech. the problem is transitions out of it havent been worked out just yet + volatility around the viability of holding ur ramp.
Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread.
I'm sorry but that's not the way TL works. He offered to play a couple games with you to show you and you deny him for that? Assume much? What if you're in Master but just 4 gate every game. Similarly, what if you're in Silver but do the craziest things to know exactly what you can't do? And who are you to judge that you have to be in masters? I could very well say you're not allowed to contribute either unless you're a korean pro. Not very fair.
Anyways, there have been many threads, but again the best way to counter is any form of early aggression, aka 2 gate or even a chrono boosted zealot or an early zealot from a 10 gate or such. It will delay your opponent significantly, especially if he is cutting probes (which most players do).
If you want to play defensive then you can get an immortal out quickly but you'll have to be sure you have good control and ff the ramp etc. A missed ff could be gg. The other defensive option is to 4 gate yourself but theoretically with at least 1 more probe. But it seems that's not what you want to do xD
This thread gets created every couple of days. Tyler gave pretty much the only answers you need in this thread. The bottom line is is that you can go defensive 4 gate, 3 gate, or 2 gate robo depending on how aggressive the 4 gate is. Don't waste your time reading through this entire thread. Just go read Tyler's posts.
On February 06 2011 10:05 Skyro wrote: Economical 4-Gate is the best counter to 4-Gate on maps where they can warp in from areas other than your ramp (DQ) or maps with wide ramps (Scrap). It is also IMO the easiest way to handle it on all maps.
IMO chronoing units out of 3 Gates ways works best since it transitions into tech easier and allows you to put on early pressure before warpgate tech is done so you can both confirm if they are doing 4-Gate or not and to delay their proxy pylon probe if they are in fact doing it. There are a lot of variations of 3-Gate so you have to experiment to see what works best in what situations. Generally on larger maps if I suspect 4-Gate and I see no initial zealot from them I get 3 early stalkers which I use to confirm the 4-Gate and delay their proxy pylon probe + escort, which will usually only be 1 zealot and 1 stalker. If they push me back by warping in their first round of units at their base that's when I warp in a sentry or 2 at mine and then make an arc of sentries at the top of my ramp which will blast any warping in zealots they try to make with no casualities w/ some minor micro. Once you hold this first round of warp-ins at your ramp you can pretty much just overwhelm them.
My 2 gate robo immortal zealot opening holds 4 gate regardless of the choke. I don't use forcefields. If you work out timings, you can defend an optimal 4 gate in creative ways.
This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above.
This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above.
You "can" defend if you play superiorly of course, but I assume Peace, you mean when both players play perfectly?
And of course its possible. If you use cannons. Haha. And assuming that 2 gate is a counter rather than "defending" against a 4 gate.
This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above.
You "can" defend if you play superiorly of course, but I assume Peace, you mean when both players play perfectly?
And of course its possible. If you use cannons. Haha.
True, I should have said that you can't defend it without a FF unless you put yourself way behind. Sure you can wall off and build cannons every game to counter a Korean 4 gate, but then you will lose to pretty much any build that has a decent econ.
Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread.
I'm sorry but that's not the way TL works. He offered to play a couple games with you to show you and you deny him for that? Assume much? What if you're in Master but just 4 gate every game. Similarly, what if you're in Silver but do the craziest things to know exactly what you can't do? And who are you to judge that you have to be in masters? I could very well say you're not allowed to contribute either unless you're a korean pro. Not very fair.
Anyways, there have been many threads, but again the best way to counter is any form of early aggression, aka 2 gate or even a chrono boosted zealot or an early zealot from a 10 gate or such. It will delay your opponent significantly, especially if he is cutting probes (which most players do).
If you want to play defensive then you can get an immortal out quickly but you'll have to be sure you have good control and ff the ramp etc. A missed ff could be gg. The other defensive option is to 4 gate yourself but theoretically with at least 1 more probe. But it seems that's not what you want to do xD
I offered to play him later. Masters with 4 gate only? Paleeaaasseeee. Silver because you try all the things you shouldn't? Don't you think you should stay in silver if you keep trying things that don't work? Also, these forums are here for intelligent discussion between people who know what they're talking about. I have no problem with lower level players contributing to the discussion, but I expect some sort of modesty and understanding that at their level of play, things are much different. Which is why, if I'm not totally sure on a topic, I keep my mouth shut. Not to mention I have yet to see a replay of a robo build with sentries stop a 4gate.
But anyways... I think we all know that early 2 gate pressure or something of the sorts stops it. That isn't the issue. Obviously if someone rushes you with 2 gates, you have to adjust and you can't just boost the warpgate tech all the way through.
And, I still say that you can't defend with any kind of 2 gas robo build. The senries are obsolete when I warp in above your ramp. I think the 1gas 1 gate robo is a good counter to it because it does not rely on ff's and it gets an immortal out before the push gets there.
If anyone would like to play me I welcome it... Acridice.147 PM me, whatever.
3 gate robo is the strongest build defending a 4 gate IMO. But you need to be able to FF that ramp at any moment. But when you do FF, keep the zealots back and just cut his army by pieces and pick them off and eventually he will have to back off and then your ahead in tech, gg.
On February 09 2011 09:46 ChopSuey2 wrote: 3 gate robo is the strongest build defending a 4 gate IMO. But you need to be able to FF that ramp at any moment. But when you do FF, keep the zealots back and just cut his army by pieces and pick them off and eventually he will have to back off and then your ahead in tech, gg.
I am only a Plat player about to ding Diamond (so far as I can figure) so my input is offered as half question... That being said, if I scout 4 gate I've been having a lot of success faking gas and then dropping a second gate, rushing zealots, and then transitioning to my natural possibly with cannons depending on what I scout and the map. My zealots usually arrive just befor the warpgate finishes keeping them in their base and giving me enough time to take out something critical before it's time to pull back. This has been winning me an early advantage in most cases if not the game, and against most of the Diamond folk I've played so far. obviously this includes scouting for their proxies.
Do you guys think this is something that will work as I ladder up or will it get washed out by high level diamond and master players? Love to hear your thought!
i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead
On February 09 2011 13:27 TriggerX wrote: i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead
Lol, just Lol.... immortals in a 4gate. Too funny.
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread.
See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay.
See what I did there?
I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd.
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread.
See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay.
See what I did there?
I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd.
Excuse me? And know I don't really see what you did there, aside form clicking quote, and then not commenting on the quote itself. And I think your statement is totally arrogant. (Acridice.147) Please, show me a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas. That is all I ask, is a replay of someone going 2 gas robo build with sentries holding off a well executed 4 gate. Also, what 3.5k toss did I say was incorrect? I'm just asking for some kind of proof or replay, because in my experience, I have not seen it happen. And I didn't see you mention anywhere what league or points you're at?
Once again, another baseless response with no replay. Show me a replay of 3 gate into robo holding it, or just play me....
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread.
See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay.
See what I did there?
I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd.
Excuse me? And know I don't really see what you did there, aside form clicking quote, and then not commenting on the quote itself. And I think your statement is totally arrogant. (Acridice.147) Please, show me a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas. That is all I ask, is a replay of someone going 2 gas robo build with sentries holding off a well executed 4 gate. Also, what 3.5k toss did I say was incorrect? I'm just asking for some kind of proof or replay, because in my experience, I have not seen it happen. And I didn't see you mention anywhere what league or points you're at?
Once again, another baseless response with no replay. Show me a replay of 3 gate into robo holding it, or just play me....
Obviously both sides could play better, but this is the main idea. Use FF to cut 1-2 units off when they come up the ramp, kill them with range while moving back to prevent low ground units from hitting you. Rinse/Repeat.
So i guess, it's easier to just avoid and laugh at the question then answer it?
I appreciate the replay, but dude, the 4 gate was horrible. He lost half his stalkers because he let them get FF, and then he didnt warp in his zealots forever. Not to mention he built his ramp pylon way late. He then did little to no micro at all, even though he pretty much had already screwed himself when he let 3 stalkers get FF, haha and then he ran them into the dudes base on move command.
I still think it takes micro errors on the 4 gaters side in order for what is essentially a 3 gate to hold it. This isn't really even a 3 gate robo. It's just a 3 gate with 2 gas. And, then after the defense you get the robo.
The whole point I was making about the robo builds are the fact that people are trying to get the robo up before the 4 gate comes, which does not work unless you do the 1gate 1robo 1gas build that kcdc is talkin about.
On February 09 2011 14:13 Acridice wrote: So i guess, it's easier to just avoid and laugh at the question then answer it?
I appreciate the replay, but dude, the 4 gate was horrible. He lost half his stalkers because he let them get FF, and then he didnt warp in his zealots forever. Not to mention he built his ramp pylon way late. He then did little to no micro at all, even though he pretty much had already screwed himself when he let 3 stalkers get FF, haha and then he ran them into the dudes base on move command.
I still think it takes micro errors on the 4 gaters side in order for what is essentially a 3 gate to hold it. This isn't really even a 3 gate robo. It's just a 3 gate with 2 gas. And, then after the defense you get the robo.
The whole point I was making about the robo builds are the fact that people are trying to get the robo up before the 4 gate comes, which does not work unless you do the 1gate 1robo 1gas build that kcdc is talkin about.
Then get online. I doubt you'll do any better than LaHarL, and obviously I'm not going to go robo before your 4 gate gets there when I scout that you're 4 gating.
On February 09 2011 13:27 TriggerX wrote: i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead
Lol, just Lol.... immortals in a 4gate. Too funny.
the immortal part means after defending 4 gate..so basically phoenix's is still useful even after defending the 4 gate rush..also i have seen some 4 gate + immortals before..but id say that aint a 4 gate rush..just saying if u have phoenix's..then lifting immortals are more priority than stalkers and sentrys..sorry if you didn't get that =P
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote: "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
I'd much rather 3 gate into a later robo, though that could be because I've practiced it more and know that it's 100% safe against aggressive builds.
I'm not sure about the 2 gate robo, but it's probably viable. Tyler was saying (~2 weeks ago?) that 2 gate robo was his go-to PvP build, and that he even did it on Jungle Basin, which sounds suicidal to me, so it can't be a completely lost battle.
Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker.
Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro.
Holding off a 4gate is perfectly doable without 4gating yourself, but it really does constrict your options for opening. You MUST pick an opening that will have a strong defense at the 6 minute mark. There's plenty of other ways to do that besides 4gating - 2gas 3(-4)gate "(almost) all ranged unit" is my personal default - I'll generally be chronoboosting the SHIT out of the gates when I'm under the gun, but it works, and I won't be cutting probes. I like it because I can ramp FF but stand back out of range of the shit at the bottom of the ramp trying to shoot up at me. It's not perfect, but when I lose to 4gates and look at my replays I feel like it's more because I was sloppy with my opening (my warpgate research is late, Not using chronoboosts to stay alive, supply blocking myself, etc.
The problem with cannon builds is that they don't let you do anything AFTER you live through their 4gate - if I were 4gating and I saw them build cannons in response, I'd pressure them into as many cannons as I could without losing many units, then back off and expo. Maybe on maps that you have a backdoor expo which ISN'T WARP-IN HEAVEN LIKE JUNGLE BASIN then the early cannons would work better?
Maybe if you put together an early +1 build so you could turn that early forge into something besides just cannons?
Pro support: I swiped this off of watching White-Ra vs Naniwa. I didn't just pull some build out of nowhere.
On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote: "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote: "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker.
Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro.
lol man did that actually happen??? rep mee later 2day <3 we can do some more work later. im gonna get those phoenixes to work on steppes mmmkay
I've been practicing a build for the past week of opening blink stalker vs 4gate in mid masters.
This seems to me to be effective whether they 4gate or not.
I open: 9 Pylon 12 Gate Gas Core Gas Chrono 1 Stalker Twilight Council Chrono 2 Stalker Chrono 3 Stalker Gateway Gateway Chrono Blink
He's going to think you're 4gating because you're only going to use 2 chrono on your probes but in reality you're saving the rest for stalkers/blink research. He'll probably react with 4gate (whether he was going to do it in the first place or not).
1st stalker comes out - Get the scouting probe so you can drop your TC. Immediately after the scouting probe is dead/out, continue searching everywhere for possible proxy pylons, or other probes.
Use the 2nd and 3rd stalker to help with the search and HOLD watch towers to look for any other incoming proxy probes. (NOTE: It is SO important to find that scouting probe that it can be game breaking).
Another note: After you have prevented the proxy pylon from being positioned, you have already stalled him quite a bit. His next step (or sometimes 1st step) is sending 1stalker, 1zealot, 1probe. Do your best to get the probe and fend off the zealot/stalker (this can be difficult as your 3rd stalker might not be quite ready, if you can get the probe before it drops a pylon that's amazing).
From my experience, you can't always stop the zealot/stalker and probe but with good micro/macro you can get out enough stalkers with blink to stop the 4gate at this point.
Couple of micro tricks: Kill his stalkers first so you can kite his zealots. Blink only 1 (or minimal) stalkers at a time.
Almost never stop probe production (I only think it's really necessary to cut for blink research and to get out your 2nd and 3rd gate fast enough for when wg finishes)
If you continue probe production throughout all of this, you can support 4 gates producing only blink stalkers and you can make a pretty devastating counter.
If you're interested in how I counter/transition to midgame and lategame with this build, I can explain in further detail.
On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote: "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
+1
I'll put up his 2 gate robo defense, even though I'm quite embarrassed at my play. I was about to go to bed when he said he would play me, and I didn't wanna seem like a puss, so I played him. The micro wasn't terribly bad, but my timing was a bit off on everything. Either way though, not to give excuses, but I think a lot of it was simply his composure and superior skill level. Gahhh.... here it is...
On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote: I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress.
Actually, if you're having trouble filtering out what is baseless and what is legitimate without looking at replays, then you're probably not at a level at which you should be contributing to the discussion. I'm not trying to be insulting.
See what I did there?
As for counters to the 4wg, economic 4gate with micro wars deciding the victor is probably the safest bet. if you can survive the initial two rounds of unit warp ins on equal footing, you're usually in a good position as this is when you should have enough gas to safely put down a sentry or two to start splitting shit up.
Could one of you post the replay please? I'd like to learn from it.
+1
I'll put up his 2 gate robo defense, even though I'm quite embarrassed at my play. I was about to go to bed when he said he would play me, and I didn't wanna seem like a puss, so I played him. The micro wasn't terribly bad, but my timing was a bit off on everything. Either way though, not to give excuses, but I think a lot of it was simply his composure and superior skill level. Gahhh.... here it is...
On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote: Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker.
Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro.
lol man did that actually happen??? rep mee later 2day <3 we can do some more work later. im gonna get those phoenixes to work on steppes mmmkay
Yeah, it's actually insolence vs hasuobs, my bad. But hey, it's from September, so I think my memory is pretty legit.
Hey man, I've had some success versus 4gate doing some weird things. One of those things is 15Nexus, pumping out a zealot and some stalkers while getting 3 stargates. After that chrono phoenixes. You should lose the majority of the health on your nexus, but if you can pull of some perfect micro it can directly counter four gate.
On February 10 2011 05:14 eXwOn wrote: Hey man, I've had some success versus 4gate doing some weird things. One of those things is 15Nexus, pumping out a zealot and some stalkers while getting 3 stargates. After that chrono phoenixes. You should lose the majority of the health on your nexus, but if you can pull of some perfect micro it can directly counter four gate.
Now this is something that I really don't think the timings could ever possibly work on, if the opponent does a 4gate even remotely smoothly. Just think about it. He needs Gateway -> core -> boost the shit out of warpgate research. About You need Nexus -> Gateway -> core -> stargate? I fail to see how you have even HALF his units at the 6:30 mark, let alone the gas to build 3 stargates.
Even from a totally rudimentary strategy perspective, it makes no sense. Player A goes straight for a fast army. Player B goes for an expansion AND is teching quickly. Day[9]'s strategy here for player A is * Does the day[9] shrug* "Just go fucking kill him"
Ok, maybe if you do your build smoothly and your opponent totally botches his, supply blocking all over the place, not having his pylon ready outside your base when his warpgate research finishes etc. Relying on your opponent making game-losing macro mistakes = no thanks, you can gladly keep your 15nexus-into-3 stargate "counters 4 gate" build to yourself. You didn't win that game, your opponent lost it.
On February 10 2011 00:07 Abele wrote: I've been practicing a build for the past week of opening blink stalker vs 4gate in mid masters.
This seems to me to be effective whether they 4gate or not.
I open: 9 Pylon 12 Gate Gas Core Gas Chrono 1 Stalker Twilight Council Chrono 2 Stalker Chrono 3 Stalker Gateway Gateway Chrono Blink
He's going to think you're 4gating because you're only going to use 2 chrono on your probes but in reality you're saving the rest for stalkers/blink research. He'll probably react with 4gate (whether he was going to do it in the first place or not).
1st stalker comes out - Get the scouting probe so you can drop your TC. Immediately after the scouting probe is dead/out, continue searching everywhere for possible proxy pylons, or other probes.
Use the 2nd and 3rd stalker to help with the search and HOLD watch towers to look for any other incoming proxy probes. (NOTE: It is SO important to find that scouting probe that it can be game breaking).
Another note: After you have prevented the proxy pylon from being positioned, you have already stalled him quite a bit. His next step (or sometimes 1st step) is sending 1stalker, 1zealot, 1probe. Do your best to get the probe and fend off the zealot/stalker (this can be difficult as your 3rd stalker might not be quite ready, if you can get the probe before it drops a pylon that's amazing).
From my experience, you can't always stop the zealot/stalker and probe but with good micro/macro you can get out enough stalkers with blink to stop the 4gate at this point.
Couple of micro tricks: Kill his stalkers first so you can kite his zealots. Blink only 1 (or minimal) stalkers at a time.
Almost never stop probe production (I only think it's really necessary to cut for blink research and to get out your 2nd and 3rd gate fast enough for when wg finishes)
If you continue probe production throughout all of this, you can support 4 gates producing only blink stalkers and you can make a pretty devastating counter.
If you're interested in how I counter/transition to midgame and lategame with this build, I can explain in further detail.
I like it. I like it a lot - the timings seem to work well. You take early map presence by getting more stalkers out pre-warpgate your opponent can't easily set up a proxy pylon ahead of time, and use that to stall for your blink research/slightly later warpgate research. Would love to see some replays where you defend 4-gates with this blink stalker build. Another neat thing is you force him to follow his 4gate with either a robo or cannons just from the imaginary (or real) threat of DTs.
EPT
). Holy shit though, that video reminded me why i hate HD so much (and husky not to mention). They really must appeal to 12 year olds or something, cuz i honestly muted it half way through and enjoyed the game more. Oh well, back to being an elitist fuck with nothing to back it up...
thats never works
