Is the only counter to a four gate in PvP a four gate?
In most of my games, I like to go for an early expand style. Something like a three gate or a two gate robo into three gates with no stalkers. Almost always (probably 80% of my PvP matches) my opponent four gates, and I feel like my only response is to four gate and win with micro. If I have to pull probes at all, it's basically GG. The economy hit in combination with the proxy pylon means that there is no breathing room, and generally if the fight happens in my main then, even if I beat him back, he is on two bases to my one.
Obviously positioning matters just a bit. Close/far positions on certain maps (LT, Delta) mean an extra round of warp ins. It seems like if I can get one extra round of sentries, I usually hold off the initial push and wind up winning.
1. When scouting a four gate opening, is the best response a four gate? 2. Should I stop chronoboosting my probes before 18 so that I can constantly chronoboost warp tech at the core? 3. What should my composition look like? My assumption is stalker/sentry but that doesn't seem to be working. 4. Is there ever a reason to two gate robo in PvP outside of warp prism harass? What about two gate stargate? 5. Should I not do a partial wall in against Protoss? I seems like my pylons get sniped pretty quickly in PvP. 6. Are there any early expand builds that easily combat a four gate build?
I'm going to browse sc2rep looking at PvP games, but any insight would be appreciated. I'll save my next few PvP replays and post them when I can.
Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
On February 05 2011 14:16 Parra wrote: I believe a 3 gate starport can easily defend a 4gate as well
Eeh, not really. I used to love doing 3 gate pheonix and just holding my ramp and harassing, but once you play good people they can get an expo up very quickly while you really cant if they camp you ramp.
3 gate double gas robo can work, just going sentry, stalker and immortal. Then following a 3 collosis with range push... But surviving the initial 4 gate is very difficult, usually I feel like it was my opponent at fault. Ofcourse a 4 gate to counter works too, but you really dont have many options. Also a DT rush with 2 early sentry can work, but thats a toss up
Please check old threads. I've already seen like 10+ of these and said the same things in each.
2 Gate or 4 gate yourself. Check Liquipedia to learn how to counter it. Any early aggression to delay his Warpgate tech or just destroy him will work (aka 2 Gate into whatever you want).
On February 05 2011 14:09 kcdc wrote: Against a top level all-in 4 gate, your options are to (1) 4 gate with a few more probes, (2) 3 gate with a lot of sentries and PERFECT control, or (3) 2 gate robo off of 1 gas for zealot immortal. I have a build order that works with option 3, but a lot of people will tell you that it's not possible. Either way, the easiest most secure option is to 4 gate yourself.
Mind posting that build? Would love to try it out.
Please check old threads. I've already seen like 10+ of these and said the same things in each.
I did search. There were a few builds in the wiki, but none answering this specific question (at least not in the first four pages. Most were countering four gate as Zerg.
After watching some replays, it looks like my only two options are 3 gate 2 gas or 4 gate 2 gas, with varying levels of success. 2 gate robo never seems to work, and 3 gate robo is too late to matter. I think the real problem is that there's no chronoboost on probes after the first - everything is spent on gateways and the core. I tend to chronoboost the first 2 times on probes and then after warpgate tech on probes again. I'll change that up and see how it works.
For anyone else out there, it seems like your typical four gate build stops probe production at 18-20 probes. That seems to make sense, but 22 probes offers full gas saturation as well as basic mineral saturation. I think that might be the key to countering this build.
Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
*edit*
1. When scouting a four gate opening, is the best response a four gate? there are many ways to hold off, most preferred is a four gate response because it is saying "if we do the exact same build and produce the exact same units, then it comes down to whoever is better at micro / macro" and hopefully you are.
2. Should I stop chronoboosting my probes before 18 so that I can constantly chronoboost warp tech at the core? your first chrono boost should be after your first pylon comes in, second chrono boost after you put down your first gateway, you can put 1 more chrono boost on your nexus and still keep the cyber under complete chrono boost, or you can spend that third on a production facility.
3. What should my composition look like? My assumption is stalker/sentry but that doesn't seem to be working. your goal is to work towards 5 stalkers, and have 4 zealots for cannon fodder. 1 sentry is good for cutting the army in half on ramps / containing / preventing retreat up their ramp. When your zealots die, get out of their before you stalkers take damage. when your opponent matches your stalker number, then step it up to 7-8 stalkers, and put the rest in zealots. (7-8 = magic number early game, too many = tripping over each other)
4. Is there ever a reason to two gate robo in PvP outside of warp prism harass? What about two gate stargate? Two of my favorite builds are 2gRobo and 2gSgate in pvp. 2grobo = gate - robo - gate and you chrono boost out an immortal asap. your timing push should be 1-2 zealots , 2 stalkers , 2 sentries, 1 immortal, and the ability to warp in 2 more units when you reach your opponents base. with 2gsgate you go 6z2s (maybe 3 stalkers depending on your opponent) and chrono boost the pheonix asap. concept = lift your opponents stalkers, and out number their zealots with your zealots.
5. Should I not do a partial wall in against Protoss? I seems like my pylons get sniped pretty quickly in PvP. I place my buildings against the cliff, but not near my ramp: reasoning = if i get cannon rushed, the buildings will prevent my opponent from building cannons there / absorb damage long enough for me to get a stalker out and kill the probe. Also it provides more vision on the minimap and allows me to spot a drop coming sooner. Only building you need on the ramp is a pylon to warp in units.
6. Are there any early expand builds that easily combat a four gate build? Yes, but not quite easily. most of them depend on the damage you do in a specific rush, others are defensive that assure you a secure expansion at ___ point of time in game. Most of the time you need to add in a forge and fall back on 3ish warpgates. example: 2grobo you add in a forge (same as a 3g robo, but instead the 150 minerals go into a forge) and you put 1-2 cannons down at your natural.
You can boost your nexus twice and still have all the chrono you want for warpgate tech.
To me, it's pretty simple. Either go econ friendly 4 gate, or do some early 2 gate pressure into either expand or tech. The 2 gate can go several ways depending when exactly u put ure 2nd gate down, and how much pressure you apply with it. Checkout the adelscott build. That is nice in close positions if you can pull off the timing right. It's a fairly small window.
Don't try and tech until you defend the 4 gate. If the guy knows how to 4 gate correctly, you WILL die. And, you were saying you would like to have 22 probes. Go for it. But, put up 4 gates, and chrono boost it aways and get a couple sentries.
Not to mention, I thought this was a given, but apparently not. If you're going for a more econ friendly 4 gate, u can chrono your gateway once, and get an edge on the number of units before warpgate is up. take map control and deny the proxy.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
When a protoss 4gates it's best just to get your forcefield on the ramp right to cut his units in half. Never move your forces down the ramp to counter attack until you have a significantly larger force.
And don't do the obviously wrong things - i.e take an expansion. 4gate, 2 gate robo, 3gate robo, 3 gate starport all work with a bit of micro.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
On February 05 2011 14:37 mufin wrote: dts, if you can force field your ramp long enough till they pop.
DTs can only get out after 6.5 minutes... they would have to be terrible for that to work.
i agree, but 2 dts (one in his base, one in yours), can immediately win you the game if you can survive his 4 gate long enough. i've also seen players delay a 4 warp gate with early zealot pressure, cannon pressure or anything else that doesn't take gas. but in the end, i feel it isn't a very stable approach to the matchup.
the harder, more consistent way to counter 4 gate (in my opinion) is 3 gate blink stalker. Well micro'd blink stalkers > all gateway units. especially since it makes forcefields obsolete. check out this PvP between TLO and White-Ra if you need a better picture.
I couldn't find the reddit guy that casted the game so you'll have to deal with HD :p.
On February 05 2011 15:42 Rhythm.102 wrote: Pylon-Gateway-Assim-Pylon-Cyber-Forge-Cannon either start with 2zeal 1stalker or 1zeal 2 sentry (take second gas sooner) or 3zeal 1 stalker (if your opponent does 2g stalker rush into 4wrpgate then the 3 zeals will be under stalker fire for a little while your stalker comes out and 1-2 cannons warp in.
chrono boost your cyber core, and when you reach 50% put down 2 more gateways and later take your second gas. place your cannon so that you defend your ramp, or your expansion preference. make sure the fight is in range of the cannon.
building a forge to defend a 4gate is extraodinarily bad. Sinking so much money into static defense puts the opponent way too far ahead unless for some reason he is retarded and suicides his army into your cannons instead of pulling back and doing whatever he wants with a huge army lead.
I respect your opinion, and if you would like to back it up, i would be more then happy to let you try.
1 forge and 2 cannons is equivalent to 1 gateway and 3 zealots in price. Gateway takes - 20 additional seconds to build then forge Cannon takes - 2 additional seconds to build then zealot (but you can build multiple at once) 3zealots = 300 hp + 150 shield worth || 2 cannons = 300 hp + 300 shield worth cannons are ranged / have detection / and kick out more dps Forge provides ground unit upgrades for the protoss army.
downside = cannons are immovable.
Your right... your opponent will have a bigger army, but he will be unable to kill you without suiciding his army. In the mean time you have a safe tech route / expansion / protection from dt threat.
The problem is he can just sit below your ramp and tech/expand freely.
On many maps the adel scott build (2-gate out 4 zealots + 2 follow up stalkers that arrive before WG finishes then transition into an early expo, early tech, or a 4-gate works very well in my experience (high diamond but I've beaten plenty of low masters players with it).
EPT
