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Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread.
I'm sorry but that's not the way TL works. He offered to play a couple games with you to show you and you deny him for that? Assume much? What if you're in Master but just 4 gate every game. Similarly, what if you're in Silver but do the craziest things to know exactly what you can't do? And who are you to judge that you have to be in masters? I could very well say you're not allowed to contribute either unless you're a korean pro. Not very fair.
Anyways, there have been many threads, but again the best way to counter is any form of early aggression, aka 2 gate or even a chrono boosted zealot or an early zealot from a 10 gate or such. It will delay your opponent significantly, especially if he is cutting probes (which most players do).
If you want to play defensive then you can get an immortal out quickly but you'll have to be sure you have good control and ff the ramp etc. A missed ff could be gg. The other defensive option is to 4 gate yourself but theoretically with at least 1 more probe. But it seems that's not what you want to do xD
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This thread gets created every couple of days. Tyler gave pretty much the only answers you need in this thread. The bottom line is is that you can go defensive 4 gate, 3 gate, or 2 gate robo depending on how aggressive the 4 gate is. Don't waste your time reading through this entire thread. Just go read Tyler's posts.
On February 06 2011 14:46 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 10:05 Skyro wrote:
Economical 4-Gate is the best counter to 4-Gate on maps where they can warp in from areas other than your ramp (DQ) or maps with wide ramps (Scrap). It is also IMO the easiest way to handle it on all maps.
IMO chronoing units out of 3 Gates ways works best since it transitions into tech easier and allows you to put on early pressure before warpgate tech is done so you can both confirm if they are doing 4-Gate or not and to delay their proxy pylon probe if they are in fact doing it. There are a lot of variations of 3-Gate so you have to experiment to see what works best in what situations. Generally on larger maps if I suspect 4-Gate and I see no initial zealot from them I get 3 early stalkers which I use to confirm the 4-Gate and delay their proxy pylon probe + escort, which will usually only be 1 zealot and 1 stalker. If they push me back by warping in their first round of units at their base that's when I warp in a sentry or 2 at mine and then make an arc of sentries at the top of my ramp which will blast any warping in zealots they try to make with no casualities w/ some minor micro. Once you hold this first round of warp-ins at your ramp you can pretty much just overwhelm them. My 2 gate robo immortal zealot opening holds 4 gate regardless of the choke. I don't use forcefields. If you work out timings, you can defend an optimal 4 gate in creative ways.
This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above.
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This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above.
You "can" defend if you play superiorly of course, but I assume Peace, you mean when both players play perfectly?
And of course its possible. If you use cannons. Haha. And assuming that 2 gate is a counter rather than "defending" against a 4 gate.
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On February 09 2011 08:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +This isn't true. Do you have a replay of you defending a Korean 4 gate without a FF? You don't, because it's not possible. Tyler even says so himself in the thread I linked above. You "can" defend if you play superiorly of course, but I assume Peace, you mean when both players play perfectly? And of course its possible. If you use cannons. Haha.
True, I should have said that you can't defend it without a FF unless you put yourself way behind. Sure you can wall off and build cannons every game to counter a Korean 4 gate, but then you will lose to pretty much any build that has a decent econ.
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On February 09 2011 07:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Okay, I arrest my case then... When you get masters then you are allowed to contribute input to this thread. I'm sorry but that's not the way TL works. He offered to play a couple games with you to show you and you deny him for that? Assume much? What if you're in Master but just 4 gate every game. Similarly, what if you're in Silver but do the craziest things to know exactly what you can't do? And who are you to judge that you have to be in masters? I could very well say you're not allowed to contribute either unless you're a korean pro. Not very fair. Anyways, there have been many threads, but again the best way to counter is any form of early aggression, aka 2 gate or even a chrono boosted zealot or an early zealot from a 10 gate or such. It will delay your opponent significantly, especially if he is cutting probes (which most players do). If you want to play defensive then you can get an immortal out quickly but you'll have to be sure you have good control and ff the ramp etc. A missed ff could be gg. The other defensive option is to 4 gate yourself but theoretically with at least 1 more probe. But it seems that's not what you want to do xD
I offered to play him later. Masters with 4 gate only? Paleeaaasseeee. Silver because you try all the things you shouldn't? Don't you think you should stay in silver if you keep trying things that don't work? Also, these forums are here for intelligent discussion between people who know what they're talking about. I have no problem with lower level players contributing to the discussion, but I expect some sort of modesty and understanding that at their level of play, things are much different. Which is why, if I'm not totally sure on a topic, I keep my mouth shut. Not to mention I have yet to see a replay of a robo build with sentries stop a 4gate.
But anyways... I think we all know that early 2 gate pressure or something of the sorts stops it. That isn't the issue. Obviously if someone rushes you with 2 gates, you have to adjust and you can't just boost the warpgate tech all the way through.
And, I still say that you can't defend with any kind of 2 gas robo build. The senries are obsolete when I warp in above your ramp. I think the 1gas 1 gate robo is a good counter to it because it does not rely on ff's and it gets an immortal out before the push gets there.
If anyone would like to play me I welcome it... Acridice.147 PM me, whatever.
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3 gate robo is the strongest build defending a 4 gate IMO. But you need to be able to FF that ramp at any moment. But when you do FF, keep the zealots back and just cut his army by pieces and pick them off and eventually he will have to back off and then your ahead in tech, gg.
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On February 09 2011 09:46 ChopSuey2 wrote:
3 gate robo is the strongest build defending a 4 gate IMO. But you need to be able to FF that ramp at any moment. But when you do FF, keep the zealots back and just cut his army by pieces and pick them off and eventually he will have to back off and then your ahead in tech, gg.
Once again, did you read the thread?
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I am only a Plat player about to ding Diamond (so far as I can figure) so my input is offered as half question... That being said, if I scout 4 gate I've been having a lot of success faking gas and then dropping a second gate, rushing zealots, and then transitioning to my natural possibly with cannons depending on what I scout and the map. My zealots usually arrive just befor the warpgate finishes keeping them in their base and giving me enough time to take out something critical before it's time to pull back. This has been winning me an early advantage in most cases if not the game, and against most of the Diamond folk I've played so far. obviously this includes scouting for their proxies.
Do you guys think this is something that will work as I ladder up or will it get washed out by high level diamond and master players? Love to hear your thought! 
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i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead
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On February 09 2011 13:27 TriggerX wrote:
i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead
Lol, just Lol.... immortals in a 4gate. Too funny.
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On February 08 2011 08:28 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote:
I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress. Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread.
See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay.
See what I did there?
I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd.
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On February 09 2011 13:35 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:28 Acridice wrote:On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote:
I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress. Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread. See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay. See what I did there? I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd.
Excuse me? And know I don't really see what you did there, aside form clicking quote, and then not commenting on the quote itself. And I think your statement is totally arrogant. (Acridice.147) Please, show me a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas. That is all I ask, is a replay of someone going 2 gas robo build with sentries holding off a well executed 4 gate. Also, what 3.5k toss did I say was incorrect? I'm just asking for some kind of proof or replay, because in my experience, I have not seen it happen. And I didn't see you mention anywhere what league or points you're at?
Once again, another baseless response with no replay. Show me a replay of 3 gate into robo holding it, or just play me....
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On February 09 2011 13:47 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 13:35 PJA wrote:On February 08 2011 08:28 Acridice wrote:On February 08 2011 08:24 tehemperorer wrote:
I just read 6 pages of crap, please don't comment if you are not high master's league. If you do, please try and be humble and understand that there is a huge difference between a Diamond level 4gate and a Masters league 4gate. I am not trying to be insulting, but it is hard to filter out legitimate discussion from the baseless claims that have been made here. That sort of thing dilutes the arguments being made, and it is disrespectful to the OP who is trying to get solid advice.
Having someone ladder blindly a thousand times a day and learn from trial and error is the same as giving them an itinerary of your trial and error in progress. Well put, I find myself here frustratedly trying to moderate this one thread. I am very interested in this topic, and it really irritates me when people just make empty statements on this thread. See that's funny, because I'm pretty sure a 3.5k protoss told you that you were incorrect, then you proceeded to bash him and ask for a replay. See what I did there? I can probably hold your 4 gate (and anyone that you would be playing on ladder's 4 gate) with 2 gate robo with double gas, which is not a very safe build against 4 gate. Saying that a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas can't hold against 4 gate is simply absurd. Excuse me? And know I don't really see what you did there, aside form clicking quote, and then not commenting on the quote itself. And I think your statement is totally arrogant. (Acridice.147) Please, show me a 3 gate into robo with 2 gas. That is all I ask, is a replay of someone going 2 gas robo build with sentries holding off a well executed 4 gate. Also, what 3.5k toss did I say was incorrect? I'm just asking for some kind of proof or replay, because in my experience, I have not seen it happen. And I didn't see you mention anywhere what league or points you're at?Once again, another baseless response with no replay. Show me a replay of 3 gate into robo holding it, or just play me....
LOL@Bolded.
But here's a replay anyway:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=187727#/replay_overview
Obviously both sides could play better, but this is the main idea. Use FF to cut 1-2 units off when they come up the ramp, kill them with range while moving back to prevent low ground units from hitting you. Rinse/Repeat.
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So i guess, it's easier to just avoid and laugh at the question then answer it?
I appreciate the replay, but dude, the 4 gate was horrible. He lost half his stalkers because he let them get FF, and then he didnt warp in his zealots forever. Not to mention he built his ramp pylon way late. He then did little to no micro at all, even though he pretty much had already screwed himself when he let 3 stalkers get FF, haha and then he ran them into the dudes base on move command.
I still think it takes micro errors on the 4 gaters side in order for what is essentially a 3 gate to hold it. This isn't really even a 3 gate robo. It's just a 3 gate with 2 gas. And, then after the defense you get the robo.
The whole point I was making about the robo builds are the fact that people are trying to get the robo up before the 4 gate comes, which does not work unless you do the 1gate 1robo 1gas build that kcdc is talkin about.
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On February 09 2011 14:13 Acridice wrote:
So i guess, it's easier to just avoid and laugh at the question then answer it?
I appreciate the replay, but dude, the 4 gate was horrible. He lost half his stalkers because he let them get FF, and then he didnt warp in his zealots forever. Not to mention he built his ramp pylon way late. He then did little to no micro at all, even though he pretty much had already screwed himself when he let 3 stalkers get FF, haha and then he ran them into the dudes base on move command.
I still think it takes micro errors on the 4 gaters side in order for what is essentially a 3 gate to hold it. This isn't really even a 3 gate robo. It's just a 3 gate with 2 gas. And, then after the defense you get the robo.
The whole point I was making about the robo builds are the fact that people are trying to get the robo up before the 4 gate comes, which does not work unless you do the 1gate 1robo 1gas build that kcdc is talkin about.
Then get online. I doubt you'll do any better than LaHarL, and obviously I'm not going to go robo before your 4 gate gets there when I scout that you're 4 gating.
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On February 09 2011 13:33 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 13:27 TriggerX wrote:
i find 2~3 gate and stargate phoenix pretty good counter for 4 gate..just lift up stalkers and sentrys..if they have immortals..just lift those instead Lol, just Lol.... immortals in a 4gate. Too funny.
the immortal part means after defending 4 gate..so basically phoenix's is still useful even after defending the 4 gate rush..also i have seen some 4 gate + immortals before..but id say that aint a 4 gate rush..just saying if u have phoenix's..then lifting immortals are more priority than stalkers and sentrys..sorry if you didn't get that =P
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"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
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On February 09 2011 14:44 Acridice wrote:
"It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong, and I am that big man" - Michael J. Scott
Well PJA put me in my place you could say by defending with a couple different 2 gas builds. He's a lot better than me and I was pretty groggy when playing him, but even so it definitely seemed doable with correct micro. But honestly tho PJA, if you went 2 gate robo against someone at your level who 4gated, can you hold it?
I'd much rather 3 gate into a later robo, though that could be because I've practiced it more and know that it's 100% safe against aggressive builds.
I'm not sure about the 2 gate robo, but it's probably viable. Tyler was saying (~2 weeks ago?) that 2 gate robo was his go-to PvP build, and that he even did it on Jungle Basin, which sounds suicidal to me, so it can't be a completely lost battle.
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Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
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On February 09 2011 15:40 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Something people are ignoring in this thread is that there are many different types of 4 gate. Did he go 10 gate? 13 gate and one gas with saved chrono? Two gas? As Tyler talks about in the thread I linked before, different 4 gate builds require different responses. It's stupid for you guys to be fighting over whether a 3 gate can hold off a 4 gate when it's true for some 4 gate builds but not for others. For example, 2 gate robo cannot hold off the fastest possible 4 gate. If you're going to argue, at least specify which 4 gate build you are talking about.
Obviously the standard one. 12 gate, 20 probes, 1 zealot+2 stalker.
Nobody good would even think about getting a robo against a k4g. Though, I actually do recall one particularly hilarious game that insolence and adelscott played on metal where one of them went 1 gate robo and held a k4g with sick sick immortal micro.
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EPT
