5 Zealot 8 Stalker rush

goldenwitch

United States338 Posts

November 23 2010 12:09 GMT

HuK was interviewed in the recent liquid weekly and he said this about the korean server.

How has the Korean ladder been? You predicted it would be more aggressive. Has this been true, and if so, how have you adapted to most of your opponents being like this?

Harder then I expected. Koreans really know how to all-in well and they do it very often and disguise it really well. PvP I've been wanting to kill myself lately - all they do is this sick timing attacks right when warpgates finish where they have like 19 probes and 5 zealot 8 stalkers... It's pretty ridiculous

So being the resourceful liquidian I am, I decided to use carbontwelve's build order optimizer to determine whether HuK was exaggerating or whether an all in that strong actually existed.

Unfortunately for everyone on ladder, it appears to be terribly terribly possible.
At 6:13 seconds you have, 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core and 24 Probes 5 Zealots 8 Stalkers.

To clarify: this is a warp gate attack that blows 4 gate pushes out of the water in immensity.

Here is barook's more optimal version
+ Show Spoiler +

0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
0:54.19: 50M 0G 29E 9/ 10S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 107M 0G 39E 10/ 18S - Build Probe
1:11.19: 57M 0G 39E 11/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:22.52: 136M 0G 20E 11/ 18S - Build Probe
1:30.83: 150M 0G 25E 12/ 18S - Build Gateway
1:37.80: 50M 0G 29E 12/ 18S - Build Probe
1:37.80: 0M 0G 29E 13/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
1:49.14: 95M 0G 10E 13/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 161M 0G 17E 14/ 18S - Build Probe
2:01.80: 111M 0G 17E 15/ 18S - Build Assimilator
2:15.33: 166M 0G 25E 15/ 18S - Chrono Nexus
2:15.33: 166M 0G 0E 15/ 18S - Build Pylon
2:17.65: 88M 0G 1E 15/ 18S - Build Probe
2:28.98: 151M 0G 8E 16/ 18S - Build Probe
2:31.80: 131M 0G 9E 17/ 18S - Move Probe To Gas
2:35.83: 174M 3G 12E 17/ 18S - Build Cybernetics Core
2:42.80: 93M 8G 15E 17/ 26S - Build Probe
2:48.22: 100M 11G 18E 18/ 26S - Build Zealot
2:48.22: 0M 11G 18E 20/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
2:59.80: 122M 28G 25E 20/ 26S - Build Probe
3:06.86: 150M 38G 29E 21/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:16.80: 105M 52G 35E 21/ 26S - Build Probe
3:25.83: 160M 64G 40E 22/ 26S - Research Warp Gate Transformation
3:29.24: 150M 19G 42E 22/ 26S - Build Gateway
3:38.05: 100M 31G 47E 22/ 26S - Build Zealot
3:42.16: 50M 37G 49E 24/ 26S - Build Probe
3:42.16: 0M 37G 49E 25/ 26S - Move Probe To Gas
3:50.66: 100M 53G 54E 25/ 26S - Build Pylon
3:59.16: 95M 69G 58E 25/ 26S - Build Probe
3:59.16: 45M 69G 58E 26/ 26S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:15.66: 247M 101G 43E 26/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:16.16: 153M 102G 43E 28/ 34S - Build Probe
4:19.16: 140M 107G 45E 29/ 34S - Chrono Cybernetics Core
4:19.16: 140M 107G 20E 29/ 34S - Build Zealot
4:23.78: 100M 116G 22E 31/ 34S - Build Pylon
4:34.24: 129M 136G 28E 31/ 34S - Build Stalker
4:39.53: 75M 96G 31E 33/ 34S - Build Assimilator
4:53.66: 188M 123G 39E 33/ 42S - Build Stalker
4:53.66: 63M 73G 39E 35/ 42S - Chrono Gateway
4:57.16: 110M 80G 16E 35/ 42S - Build Zealot
5:00.12: 50M 85G 18E 37/ 42S - Build Probe
5:16.24: 217M 116G 27E 38/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:16.82: 100M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Build Pylon
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:16.82: 0M 67G 27E 40/ 42S - Move Probe To Gas
5:25.83: 105M 99G 32E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:35.83: 227M 135G 38E 40/ 42S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 226M 121G 43E 42/ 50S - Build Stalker
5:45.83: 101M 71G 43E 44/ 50S - Chrono Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Convert Gateway To Warp Gate
5:58.24: 254M 115G 25E 44/ 50S - Chrono Gateway
6:04.90: 336M 139G 4E 44/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 247M 100G 6E 46/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:07.83: 122M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Move Probe To Minerals
6:08.04: 125M 50G 6E 48/ 50S - Build Stalker
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas
6:08.04: 0M 0G 6E 50/ 50S - Move Probe To Gas

Waypoint 1 satisfied:
6:13.04: 62M 18G 9E 50/ 50S
Income: 740M 215G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 5 Pylon 3 Warp Gate 1 Cybernetics Core
Units: 24 Probe 5 Zealot 8 Stalker
Upgrades: Warp Gate Transformation

Disclaimer: this was only optimized by 160 million games, it could probably be faster.

And here is a simplification by cyber_cheese to make it easier to remember -
+ Show Spoiler +

3x starting nexus chrono
2x ccore chrono
rest on gate/warpgates production
gateways->warps asap (obviously)

9 Pylon
12 Gateway
15 Assimilator, one probe gas asap
15 Pylon
17 2x gas probes now total
17 Core
18 Zealot
20 Third gas probe
21 Gateway
22 Research Warp Gate
22 Gateway
22 Zealot
25 Move Probe To Gas (for some reason, looking through carbons thread, ignore this bad design choice, stay on 3 @ gas)
25 Pylon
26 Zealot
29 Zealot
31 Pylon
31 Stalker
33 Assimilator (Instantly fill it)
33 Stalker
35 Zealot
38 Stalker
40 Pylon
40 Stalker
42 Stalker
44 Stalker
46 Stalker
48 Stalker

The build orders that the computer comes up with are very much arbitrary, however they work very well if you can remember them and execute them properly.
I sure hope I don't run into anyone who reads this on ladder! Happy allining <3

Kzn with 5 zealots 7 stalkers at 6:27 screeny
+ Show Spoiler +

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1244/screenshot2010112314040.jpg

Blink` with 5 zealots 8 stalkers and 22 probes at 6:25 replay vs AI!
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108339-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war

edit - still interested in replays or screenshots, especially if they can beat the times posted

ensis

Germany340 Posts

November 23 2010 12:13 GMT

damn, protoss these days is really a pain, not necessary balance wise, but the matchups are just soooooo fucked up. and btw, this strat is nothing new, i´ve seen it several weeks ago and i´m also playing it. works hillariously well on scrap.

storm44

1293 Posts

November 23 2010 12:15 GMT

when i played pvp at 21-2200 its like bronze league all over again 4 gates and cannon rushing so dumb

Syncker

Finland142 Posts

November 23 2010 12:16 GMT

"39 convert gates to gateways" Typo

Slayer91

Ireland23464 Posts

November 23 2010 12:17 GMT

This is the 1 gas 4 warpgate that's insanely hard to stop. Don't know why its not popular anymore. Only solid counter I found with speedling/baneling as zerg, as roach/ling seems a bit slow to deal with it. (obviously only on maps you can't spine crawler defense.)
This one is slightly different for PVP you want more stalkers, but if you don't get 11 gas you can get a 4th warpgate.

goldenwitch

United States338 Posts

November 23 2010 12:21 GMT

Its not actually 4 warp gates, and this exact way of executing the build order results in almost twice as many units as any other attack by toss at the same time.

To clarify: this is a warp gate attack that blows 4 gate pushes out of the water in immensity.

You could look at a pro level 4 gate and compare the benchmarks to this to see exactly how much stronger (and all in) this is.

KezseN

Singapore1450 Posts

November 23 2010 13:00 GMT

sth similiar to the foxer scv rine rush? looks kinda the same but protoss

susySquark

United States1692 Posts

November 23 2010 13:10 GMT

I guess this would work on scrap, but any other map, wouldn't forcefield just tear this apart? Hold back the army and just power out units until you can handle the 19 probe buffer he sends with his army?

Dash27

United States51 Posts

November 23 2010 13:13 GMT

I never do all ins since I dont like the style very much but I may have to try this. Maybe it will get me off my losing streak.

So forgive me if these are obvious but does this necessitate you attacking with the 19 probes as well or are you placing a forward pylon when you attack... or is the 5 z 8 s just an overwhelming force in and of itself at 6:30? Wow just typing that out it sounds so powerful.

Do you even bother scouting or trying to mask what you're doing? Would love to see a replay.

OriginalBeast

United States709 Posts

November 23 2010 13:14 GMT

#10

This is bullshit, im not going to memorize a huge build order like that, Ill stick to getting an early gas and plenty of sentries

User was warned for this post

goldenwitch

United States338 Posts

November 23 2010 13:17 GMT

#11

You don't have to bring the probes with to attack of course, you can just reinforce at a proxy pylon.
5 zealots 8 stalkers is roughly twice what a normal 4 gate has at this time in the game.

I think this build is actually safe against everything but early cheese like 2 gate proxy and cannon rush, so you will probably be fine just scouting around your base.

I don't think you need to hide what you are doing, its hidden well enough by the mixed messages it sends. For example if you scout 11 gas 14 gate what is going to be going through your head?. How about after scouting 2 gates before cyber? Whatever you are thinking, its probably not, "Better get a fast sentry."

trixcit

5 Posts

November 23 2010 13:25 GMT

#12

Why doesn't the carbontwelve BO chrono's the warpgate research directly?

machination

United States175 Posts

November 23 2010 14:13 GMT

#13

How does this fare against 16pool 14 hatch and std terran bio balls?

trNimitz

204 Posts

November 23 2010 14:19 GMT

#14

+ Show Spoiler +

9 pylon
11 gas
14 gateway
14 move 2 probes to gas
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 cybernetics core
18 gateway
18 move 1 probe to gas
18 zealot
21 start warp gate
21 zealot
23 pylon
23 zealot
25 stalker
27 stalker
29 stalker
31 pylon
31 zealot
33 stalker
35 stalker
37 pylon
37 zealot
39 convert gates to warp gates
39 stalker
41 stalker
43 stalker
-fin-

Can't be sure because I haven't tested it out, but I would imagine this build would get stomped by a double stalkers rush (12 gate 14 gas 15 gate&cyber)?

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

November 23 2010 14:26 GMT

#15

On November 23 2010 23:13 machination wrote:
How does this fare against 16pool 14 hatch and std terran bio balls?

Tried it against a friend (im 1800+) who did 14 hatch 13 pool, but also semi-prepared for it by making a few roaches + 1 spine crawler. It didn't end too well, if you could get a nice flank or the Zerg reacts too slow with his drone pulls you can definitely win, but he pulled drones straight away and won, 2 roaches on low + 4 lings left but he had no drones or money. This was on steppes too. Things were abit sloppy on my part though, could have proxied the 2nd pylon and pushed quicker (time the push to hit just as the stalkers were warping in).

Against Terran who don't wall in this looks like it can work really well.

Reminiscence

Singapore34 Posts

November 23 2010 14:32 GMT

#16

hmm thats weird i dont think a 4 gate rush is that slow, normally u will have 3 units out as u morph your 4 gates, done at around 530, u get 1 cycle in, then u can possibly can squeeze in another cycle which should beat this build. That is however, a single gas 4 gate rush. I imagine a double gas variation will get stomped by this i guess

Inuitively, 14 gate seems a little slow, i would think a 4 gate 1 gas with heavy chronos on warp tech be able to squeeze much more units out, but ill need to do some testings

-Edit just tested it out on yabot

Did a very standard 4 gate rush
It starts with a gate core opener but i cut probes at 20, single gas, 4 chronoboosts on warp tech
had 2 stalkers 1 lot when i morphed my gates, all gates morphed at 5:40 and 1 cycle of 4 units warped in, which means i just need to hold out for 10ish secs for my next cycle to warp in and i am sure it will crack this, so i dont think thats the build huk is talking about.

And this is a pretty standard warp gate rush that most plat tosses can do, so i suspect the one huk might be talking about could involve some unit cuts early on, maybe even a 10 gate 14 core for faster warp tech and skimming on first or second unit for a quick drop. Not sure though, hope the man himself comes here and clarfiy on the build he is talking about, ill try a few more variations, though i really wouldnt want to cut the first stalker cos it can get a bit ugly if the toss pokes in early

Randomaccount#77123

United States5003 Posts

November 23 2010 14:38 GMT

#17

--- Nuked ---

ZoW

United States3983 Posts

November 23 2010 14:43 GMT

#18

I played around using this and it works surprisingly well against terran o_o

noD

2230 Posts

November 23 2010 14:49 GMT

#19

looks strong if not scouted ...

GreEny K

Germany7312 Posts

November 23 2010 14:52 GMT

#20

And here is simplification by me to make it easier to remember -

9 pylon
11 gas
14 gateway
14 move 2 probes to gas
18 pylon
18 gateway
18 cybernetics core
18 gateway
18 move 1 probe to gas
18 zealot
21 start warp gate
21 zealot
23 pylon
23 zealot
25 stalker
27 stalker
29 stalker
31 pylon
31 zealot
33 stalker
35 stalker
37 pylon
37 zealot
39 convert gates to warp gates
39 stalker
41 stalker
43 stalker
-fin-

at 18, is that adding an additional probe to gas for a total of 3? Or removing 1?

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