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First off how is there a right way to play? How does that make any sense? Who set these manners that your opponent should follow?
Second off cheese is a build order that wins because of the cheesy way it's executed. It's cheesy not dumb or broken. The cheese does not tell you anything about the executor of it. However if you beat it you know that you are better than that build. If you lose, the build is better than you.
Third off you're in bronze. Don't judge other people on how they play. Don't make any claims as to what blizzard should fix. There's a reason you're in bronze. You don't know everything about the game. In fact I would argue you know barely anything. I'm a 2.2k diamond and I know far less than I need to in order to be considered any good
Fourth off I have two accounts. One for cheese only. So suck it hahah
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Bronze players that win 99% of the games they aren't cheese = Anything prior to them massing 18 Voids or 12 Battle Cruisers is cheese. Once they have those, it's game on!
There's all kinds of units and defensive structures you can use prior amassing air units. If you know you can win all long games in bronze, then why don't you bunker up and prove it. As pointed out earlier you can easily give up and economic advantage in Bronze for the first 10 minutes, and more than make up for it in the next 10, just make sure you don't die. It will slow down getting 18 VR though.
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Moral of this thread: Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.
/thread.
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You get cheesed alot, regardless of league. Just mass game and have confidence in your play style,
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On December 23 2010 23:21 chessiecat wrote:
I know this is a slightly silly thread but I could use a bit of advice.
That fear of the 'Quick Match' button in Bronze keeps being re-enforced in this kind of unpleasant way. Literally every on of the last four games I've played on the ladder have devolved to smacking down someone who cheesed or some variety of super-dicey worker combat.
It's gotten to where I'm actually scared of pressing the Quick Match. The most common response is 'Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.' That's not an answer. That's someone stating something I already know and I know how to deal with cheese. It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
I don't know. It's gotten to a place where I simply feel silly playing because I'm not improving. Do I have to just keep banging my head against the Bronze wall until I'm into Gold? It's a real grind.
Should I play peak hours to get some weaker opponents? Cheese until I'm out of Bronze? Wait on the obvious patches which will hopefully fix these kinds of things?
Uh, well then up your skill level?
Up the ante bro!
If you're good enough to stop cheese then soon you'll get out of Bronze. People cheese in bronze cause they can't do anything else =P
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All of the above (or at least the first few comments, which I've read lol) I agree with.
Sorry, but "Learn to fight cheese" is definitely an answer. It may not be an answer you like, but it's as simple as it gets.
Remember, things could be harder. Look at the bright side; you can prepare for all kinds of cheeses before hand because there aren't that many different kinds of cheeses really. In this manner, it is easy because you know what to expect in terms of cheese.
GL HF
Remember if you're not having fun, don't force yourself! It's all about fun  .
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Being new to the game, and Bronze ranked, I know exactly what you mean. I think a lot of Bronze players have realized that the easiest way to rack up the wins is Cheese of some kind. Whether it's a cannon rush, or a 6pool, I think a lot of Bronze players who lack good Macro/Micro skills find it easier to rush players who don't know how to counter it, rather than build up the skills to straight out beat their opponents.
However, I don't think it's the cheese that's putting you off. I think it's the fear of losing. I have this exact same problem. I find it hard to hit the "Find Match" button, because I'm worried of losing, and getting a really bad Win:Loss ratio. I've mostly gotten past this now. It's perfectly acceptable to lose a LOT of games. There are things that you really can't learn other than by just playing the game. And the ladder system is forgiving enough that even if you start with a massive loss streak, you can work your way up quite naturally once you get skilled.
Just keep playing, accept losses, and find your Chi. Cheese doesn't build up skill as much as losing to Cheese. People who cheese their way out of Bronze will plateau long before Plat/Diamond, so just be happy in the knowledge that even if you're not winning many games, you're making progress.
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Tell yourself "I am going to play X amount of games today," and then do it. It seems like you know how to beat cheese from what you said, so I don't think that's really the issue.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
I agre with the point that has been brought up a few times here:
Most Bronze players cant tell apart cheese from a normal play.
What they then fail to realise is that it makes no diffrence if you are playing against Cheese or Normal play because cheese is part of the game.
And finaly they fail to treat cheese as somethig that makes them better players, as long as you analyse why you failed to hold it off.
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Just think of it this way: to get to play real games you need to practice to beat cheese. The same as you need to do some push ups before they teach you judo. Hurry and get that done so you will be in plat to play some real game.
Are bronze/silver players that good at cheese? I watched some progames and I thought that pulling off some nice cheese require some skills. I was in bronze during the beta when cheese was not very popular I guess since I didn't face many of those.
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i just had an insight comparing cheesing in sc2 to some other games:
i'm pretty sure someone here played mortal kombat and played against some abusing a**hole who would only do the sweep (back+low kick). this same guy played fox at SSBM abusing dash atack into upsmash. he was the jiraya doing anything but grab into rasengan on narultimate hero 3. the W+mouse1 pyro that kill you all the time on TF2. that fuc*er using SMG, sprinting into prone with second chance on CoD:BO. you lost several games to this bastard, but after some pratice, he would simply not stand a chance.
cheesing in SC2 is the same thing of abusing some poor strategy on any other game, that will work until you know how to play the game a little better. after a while, you will be so damn happy to see that stupid probe placing cannons in your base. "yay, free win".
PS: i'm talking about low leagues cheese, a well executed cheese is something completely different.
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I started off in bronze in the beta, almost every other match was cheese. Bronze silver players are not that good when compared to the pros, cause you obviously have to micro a bit for example dont get your probe surrounded, 6 pool lings alive from workers etc. Heck on the sea server, around the gold league, every other game is a cheese fest. I came back to sea after playing fr a long time on the u.s server and it was quite shocking the amount of cheese.
But yeah, cheese happens at all levels, watch some featured streams on tl, and most of those people are high diamond/pros who cheese when they get bored. So you need to learn to beat cheese. But dont berate yourself if you lose a game to it, cause it can happen to anyone. NaDa lost to a 6 pool in the gsl
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To be honest, I think it is very logical that there is a lot of cheese in the lower leagues. Pretty much everyone agrees that longer games are better for the better player. Well, if you're in bronze, chances are that you're a pretty terrible player, which skews the cost/benefit analysis towards cheese.
Besides if you're in bronze you're not going to learn anything from a 30 min+ game. You can't really judge if Unit X > Unit Y, or if FE > 1 base play in bronze, because low level games are won or lost so heavily based solely upon who can macro better. (and if that is what you want to improve, its better to play vs AI anyway) And its pointless to bother learning timings in bronze because chances are both you and your opponent have really poor execution.
Cheese is a trial by fire. If you're not good enough to survive the early game, why should you be entitled to the late game? If you just want an experience akin to "10 min no rush" then you should be looking at customs or coop.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 23:33 Doctor Zoidberg wrote:
First of all, I don't think blizzard will do anything to fix all those nasty cheesy techniques, but it might even be better like that ^^
Personnally, I hate chesses. I'll tell you something: this days (i'm in silver), I face 2 kinds of people:
-Cheesers (about 50%). I usually lose to those.
-Standard-players (the other 50%) which u enjoy playing with. I win 99% of those.
I've got platinum friends and I beat them all 3-0 mostly in best of three, but if i'm still in silver, it is because of those cheesy players (which I consider noobs because they are afraid to be facing someone better and try to end the game right away).
So, after a lot of thinking, i think that we standard-players (best matches lol) have to practice a lot against all kind of rushes to make them uselees, to bust down nasty cheesers.
Lately I've been breaking down most rushes (6pool, 8pool, voidrays...) but I still lack of defense against some nasty techniques.
Hope you will fight hard against it, good luck and keep playing no-cheese nice games ^^
GL HF mate ^^
To be honest calling cheesing players noobs is kind of bad, i admit to raging like a retard when i lose to cheese but to be honest if you think about it cheesing is just as legit as playing a macro game since in the end you do what you need to do to win.
Also to the op: you shouldn't be scared to play since it doesn't even matter as long as you get better, but if you're like me and emotionally commit to every game you play you can always find practice partners from the thread in the strategy section and play a lot of custom games.
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You lose to cheese if you scout bad and have poor reaction.
You lack 2 fundamentally basic skills and you think you have what it takes to equal someone in a standard game outside of bronze?
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My last three games in Diamond (2200) were:
game1: 2 proxy gates from a P inside my base (this is nasty man)
game2: cannon rush comboed with zeal rush at the front
game3: me cheesing opponent with 1 gate in my base 1 outside his base
Cheese is very often only due to bad scouting .... scout well and the cheese games will just turn into easy points in your favor (to get out of whatever league you are in)
People cheese because very often is a quick way to gain points
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chessiecat, cheese never goes away.
I just yesterday had somebody at rank 1 Platinum build THREE FRIGGING WARPGATES and 3 pylons right in front of my base. Like, IN FUCKING FRONT of it. Because of the way I happened to mis-time my build (missed my normal scout lings), I didn't notice in time and was roflstomped.
Cheese will never go away. If you lose to cheesing bronze players you are simply very, very bad and need to learn the game.
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Actually, if your macro is that solid, playing 30-40 games using a "cheese" build will improve your micro a lot because "cheese" is actually very micro intensive. I went 2-27 when I got SC2 on release night, but then I proxy raxed like 30 games and the micro I learned from that actually carried me well into diamond after I learned to macro.
This weekend I was playing some of my brother's friends in bronze/silver and even though I couldn't literally have twice as many units even with perfect macro, I managed to 1v2 them because I would have more troops left after an engagement than both of them combined, allowing me to push. The MM micro for that started in bronze league doing proxy rax because I had a -25 win loss...
That said, there was one guy who 7 pooled every game in dreamhack and every GSL has someone who does it or proxies something etc. It will never go away even at the very top, they just get a lot better at it, sometimes with very good micro, and a solid defense to back it up if it fails. Baneling busts especially (if you consider them cheese) are almost a standard tactic.
Edit:
My last ladder game was TvP where P proxied 2 gates in my base. I ended up holding it off with marine ghost (no wall, I sim citied around my mineral line) turned around and pushed him, GG (the 2 other gates he had in his main couldn't reinforce in time. (People don't realize how hard it is to get Z's to hit the right things in a mineral line.)
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I have fun defending cheese. When I wasn't good at it, it did frustrate me. Mostly cause I would have played a 30 min game and won,then I lose in 5 min to cheese. Once you can defend it, its actually fun.
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Actually, if your macro is that solid, playing 30-40 games using a "cheese" build will improve your micro a lot because "cheese" is actually very micro intensive. I went 2-27 when I got SC2 on release night, but then I proxy raxed like 30 games and the micro I learned from that actually carried me well into diamond after I learned to macro.
Yes but generally defending cheese is also very micro intensive. So learning how to fend it off usually gives you the same skills.
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EPT
